8-Week Fetus Flushed = Manslaugther?

[J.L. des Alpins]

My partner was pregnant from my seed. After eight weeks, we experienced a miscarriage. My partner and I witnessed the very small human being coming out of her: its little legs, its lttle arms, its very little head.

This experience has be the most disturbing shock I've been hit with in half a century.

What the fuck did my partner do wrong? A human being just cannot be flushed just like that.

Is she guilty of manslaugther?

This is a serious question. Your insight is most appreciated.

JL

[Star]

Your seed must be flawed.

[Birdsnest]

What else could she have done?

I think as long as this is the first time I wouldn't worry about it especially if this is her first time being pregnant. I really don't think she is doing anything wrong, but perhaps she should see a doctor and make sure.

I'm sorry you are going through that though, it must be sad. Fetus's will often be miscarried because nature knows when the fetus isn't "just right" so this is natures way of aborting what may not have been formed just right. Actually, it could have been a blessing in disguise, you never know what may have been wrong. I would guess she needs lots of support now, but luckily 8 weeks isn't very far along.

[J.L. des Alpins]

Your seed must be flawed.I have children from other women. Also, all tests I have been through (god forbid) turned up all positive i.e. ready to produce a lot more kids.


What else could she have done?

I think as long as this is the first time I wouldn't worry about it especially if this is her first time being pregnant. I really don't think she is doing anything wrong, but perhaps she should see a doctor and make sure.

I'm sorry you are going through that though, it must be sad. Fetus's will often be miscarried because nature knows when the fetus isn't "just right" so this is natures way of aborting what may not have been formed just right. Actually, it could have been a blessing in disguise, you never know what may have been wrong. I would guess she needs lots of support now, but luckily 8 weeks isn't very far along.Dear Birdnest, it is indeed very very sad, for both of us. What you say is very much what we are experiencing. (I just wish that you have not been through a similar situation yourself to know so much about what it is about. It is such a hard experience. I tell you: I would have taken a gun round faster than this shocking experience.) And as you suspect, indeed, this was her first pregnancy.

But I just don't know what to think: Was it nature's course or was it something I should seek procecution from?

[garak]

How could a miscarriage be illegal?

[Star]

But I just don't know what to think: Was it nature's course or was it something I should seek procecution from?
Is there a country in the world where you could "seek prosecution" for such a thing?

[J.L. des Alpins]

How could a miscarriage be illegal?


Is there a country in the world where you could "seek prosecution" for such a thing?

Thank you for your prompt replies. I mean it.

From what I read from your posts, I gather that I need to give more details. [Are the details I am about to write about here relevant? I leave it to the INTP peers' judgment.]

As we entered into relationship, there was one condition I made absolutely clear with my woman partner: She can enjoy all my riches as long as she produce my child.

I am calling for your INTP logic: Was I manipulated with a woman who exploited my money and flushed my child so that she could benefit from my fortune longer? I am an INTP for god fucking sake: Emotion is an afterthought; Result is all. She crewed me. Do I have a case, if not for a legal forum, maybe an ethical one?

JL

[kuranes]

What makes you think she deliberately miscarried?

[garak]

I am calling for your INTP logic: Was I manipulated with a woman who exploited my money and flushed my child so that she could benefit from my fortune longer? I am an INTP for god fucking sake: Emotion is an afterthought; Result is all. She crewed me. Do I have a case, if not for a legal forum, maybe an ethical one?
WTF, are you fucking with us? Emotion is not always an afterthought for INTPs. We are not robots. Don't blame this on her -- it sounds like you made some pretty stupid choices.

(why am I lecturing a grown man about accountability?)

[J.L. des Alpins]

What makes you think she deliberately miscarried?My god. There are so many ways a woman can flush out things. She says 'no way. Not my fault'. Should I be simple minded and believe her blindly, or should I get the court involved? (By the way, I have plenty of money to cover for my defense.)

[Star]

Should I be simple minded and believe her blindly, or should I get the court involved? (By the way, I have plenty of money to cover for my defense.)

Is there a country in the world where you could "seek prosecution" for such a thing?


I think not...

[kuranes]

Is this thread being locked down?

[Watermark]

I miscarried my first at 8 weeks. Shit happens. There was no conspiracy in my case. 33% of women lose their first. My sister in law experienced a miscarriage. This is not something all that unusual. Before you start legal proceedings with all guns a blazin', accusing your partner, read up on the frequency of miscarriages and factors that might contribute to them.

[kuranes]

Listen to her.

[J.L. des Alpins]

I miscarried my first at 8 weeks. Shit happens. There was no conspiracy in my case. 33% of women lose their first.Watermark, then, I am sure you understand how hard it is to see your son/daughter being flushed away. This was so hard on me. I cried for hours/days (and still do every now and then).

Realistically, there are drugs available today, that can precipitate a miscariage. Isn't it possible for a young woman to use such drug to her own benefit?

[meshou]

Jesus fuck. Do you even know the chances of a woman miscarrying in the first eight weeks? Up to twenty percent. One out of fucking five. Women you have impregnated have likely had miscarrages, even if they didn't know about it.

And even if she did decide to abort, abortion is not manslaughter. You can fucking divorce her, but if you're not married to her, no court in any country that didn't deserve a neuclear blast would allow you to fucking rent a woman's utereus with any sort of penalties to her.

Even if you did pay for her food, room, board, fuck jewlrey, whatever, you do not fucking own her.

What if she fucking did genuinely want a kid, and she went through this, and you fucking try and sue her for misusing her utereus, like it's your fucking property, when something she considered her baby just died in front of her? What the fuck is wrong with you?

This is one of the most disgusting things I've hever heard. With a one in five chance, you not only give her the benefit of the doubt, you fucking get on your knees and apologize for even thinking it, then get your sorry ass out of her sight. No one deserves someone like you at a time like that.

[crofbe]

Is this thread being locked down?

It should be now. Nice post above.

[Spartan26]

Do you have a written agreement? One like couples draw up with surrogates? Did you determine prior to entering into the arrangement that she was capable of conceiving a child? What were the rules and limitations set forth by your agreement? (Timeline, custody, length of service, exclusivity, etc) Would you define this as an arrangement or relationship?

Honestly, I feel logic is depreved in what you're seeking. A court is not going to award a man damages from a woman losing a child. As angry and as powerless as you feel, placing blame or seeking a court ruling isn't going to rid you of your suffering. In fact, it'll only prolong it and entrench a root of bitterness within you.

Personally, I'd tell you to start praying. No matter what you do this isn't going to be quick wound to heel.

Sorry for your loss.

[Sally]

I am glad I'm not a man. I shall never have this conflict. What a terrible thing - to have a fragile thing you regard as your own utterly dependent upon someone else for nine months.

Other than that, I don't know enough to make any sort of judgement about either of you. My questions would be Spartan26's, with a flash of meshou's consternation (but not her outrage). From your perspective alone and based on your mistrust of this woman, and if a child is all you want from her, she is not the best candidate to carry that child, no matter what, and it seems like you ought to have considered that before you tried to create a child with her in the first place.

But it isn't my situation; it isn't my grief. I hope things get resolved for the both of you.

[Watermark]

Watermark, then, I am sure you understand how hard it is to see your son/daughter being flushed away. This was so hard on me. I cried for hours/days (and still do every now and then).

Realistically, there are drugs available today, that can precipitate a miscariage. Isn't it possible for a young woman to use such drug to her own benefit?

It is very much a shock. I saw it litterally with my own eyes. Unbelievable really. I was in shock for weeks. I had difficulty understanding what happened. It wasn't 'good enough' to have facts, statistics presented to me to explain how 'normal' it was. I figured in theory, if we could follow all good strategy, all would go well. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. You can't factor it all. I'm not going to feed you any BS about God and faith. There is just something that happens that cannot be explained at the moment. In certain circumstances, there is nothing you can do. Maybe in 30 years, all the bases will be covered.

I don't know of any drugs that can precipitate a miscarriage. In most cases, you don't know if you are going to miscarry until it is too late (personally, i don't want any drugs flowing in me that 'may or may not' prevent a miscarriage that could potentially harm my fetus). To be honest, I've not investigated it further. In my experience, when I had a second and third, I did what I did with the first - watched what I ate, read all the books I could to understand what it takes to provide the optimum for my children. Some parts of procreation are out of our hands. And when it is out of our hands, for the INTP, you are asking them to travel through channels that are sometimes unknown and difficult (ie S and F). It's a balance of wanting a logical, rational understanding, and trusting the irrational, illogical, the unknown. It is not an easy tightrope to walk. The temptation is there to want to blame that part that is not rational (ie your wife maybe), but, I really don't think that is the answer. I think you just have to let the experience flow through you, as painful and irrational as it feels to you.

[meshou]

It should be now. Nice post above.
*shrug* I think it's the natural reaction.

If the mods feel that outrage in response to a man wanting to sue a woman for daring to have a miscarrage is inappropriate... uuuh... I will try very hard to care. I'll even make a little pouty face.

Even if it is just grief, it's grief so selfish it probably causes his girlfriend just as much pain as the miscarriage. That you hurt is not an excuse to actively inflict pain on a greiving woman.

I'll stop commenting on this thread now. This is as angry as I've been in months, and I am not going to say anything of further use.

[Division56]

It sounds to me that dear Alpins is in violent denial... that shit happens.

[jimkopelli]

Try, try again, and quit bitching.
Not sure I want to know the whole situation...

[nonsequitur]

i doubt very much that a woman would want to take that kind of a risk to abort. it is very dangerous for the mother. and Alpins, whilst I can understand that you're upset, it is a fact that life doesn't always work out. It is also true about the high rate of spontaneous miscarriage, and it is often far harder on the mother (who is the one who has to go through the morning sickness etc) to see the child whom she's been carrying flushed down the toilet as you described. I was taking a course in genetics last year, and the percentage of problematic gametes produced in a normal human is at least 20%, that is true. Even if you have produced other children before, this can happen at any time. Legal action will not only be extremely traumatic for your partner, who also has to deal with losing a child, but also for you. Please reconsider it. Are you honestly going to get anything out of this? Can a child be brought back by suing your partner? Or perhaps is it better to be supportive and try again? I think you have to take some time to consider that your partner, even if you don't trust her, is a person, a human. Even though emotionally it's been hard on you, it can't have been easy on her. I can safely say that I doubt very many women would go through such trauma to get supported financially. The supposed pay-off just isn't worth it.

[Watermark]

Hmm, yes. Unfortunately, as a male, you are unable to experience the full effect. I'll be more than happy to share with you the experience, in DETAIL. Just to give you a flavor for the other side. You can travel with me through the sensing and feeling side.

[2ds]

*shrug* I think it's the natural reaction.

*snip*

I'll stop commenting on this thread now. This is as angry as I've been in months, and I am not going to say anything of further use.

wow you said it all so much better than i could have and saved me the trouble ;)

-2ds

[Dunearhp]

wow you said it all so much better than i could have and saved me the trouble ;)


Indeed. My thoughts as well.

[Watermark]

wow you said it all so much better than i could have and saved me the trouble ;)


Well, no. Let's go down this path - some interesting factoids like what gender is usually the victim of such situations like miscarriages. What gender do you think happens to get caught up in the melange? Which one is the weakest? Which gender is the stongest, most resilient? Please, indulge me... :smooch:

[Watermark]

The bottom line here, is that it's the male species that can't hack the adverse conditions. The female fetus is most resilient under adverse conditions, on a probable basis. Who the f*ck are you going to sue at this point?

[2ds]

Watermark: Although Meshou's words probably don't directly translate to my thought's her overt anger(this is probably an understatement) at the stupid shit that Alpins just posted seems to mirror my own well.....

-2ds

[2ds]

The bottom line here, is that it's the male species that can't hack the adverse conditions. The female fetus is most resilient under adverse conditions, on a probable basis. Who the f*ck are you going to sue at this point?

this post sense not make.

-2ds

[Watermark]

this post sense not make.

-2ds

JL wants to assign blame - how far does he want to go? figure it out on your own.

[Watermark]

Let's be more precise, cutting, incisive - issue of competence, the realm of NT. Who really is to blame for the "failure"?

[2ds]

Let's be more precise, cutting, incisive - issue of competence, the realm of NT. Who really is to blame for the "failure"?

no one, as was said before, shit happens.

As nice as it is to be able to make someone accountable for everythign the fact of the matter is 20%+ of all pregnancies terminate in miscarriges for reasons that have nothing to with anything except chance.

-2ds

[Xenophon]

How can you be having a child with a woman that you don't trust enough to believe when she tells you that she has had a miscarriage? Granted, I don't know much about your personal situation, but the thought of "using" a woman to have a child sounds pretty warped to me.

[Vagabond]

If your daughter ever happens to be that one out of five women that has a miscarriage, and I hope she won't be, tell her it was all her fault and that her partner should prosecute her.

Regardless. I doubt there is a law that lets you prosecute against a miscarriage. I doubt you could prosecute her even if you were sure she had an abortion (which you aren't), especially since you are not married with her if I understand correctly. I doubt you could prosecute her based on the agreement you say you had with her, and definitely not if the agreement was not put officially in written. Your choices are two; either you try again, or you withdraw the agreement and stop providing for her. Simple as that. For her sake and for the potential baby's sake, I hope you withdraw the agreement and get out of her life.

That said, if I was a woman that just lost her first baby due to a miscarriage and, instead of supporting me, my partner accused me of having got rid of it on purpose to "screw with his money", I swear to god I would beat him up so badly, that he would end up in hospital.

[SheepDog]

Sometime during the first trimester, when my wife was pregnant with our first child, she had some bleeding. I held her and saw the fear in her eyes, sad that I could not fully embrace what she must be feeling. For that moment, her mind knew about the odds of miscarriage and that it was sometimes nature's way, but her heart was full of sadness at the thought. Thankfully, it was nothing and our boy turned out to be extremely healthy.

JLdA, you saw something that we all wish we'd never have to see, and I can only imagine how upsetting the experience must have been for you. But I must also say that the utter lack of empathy toward this woman, as expressed in this thread, is hard to witness. Neither children nor partners are things to be owned, but fellow people to be respected as thier own sovereign beings. If you want to be an actual father, not just a sperm donor, then please consider this, not for me, but for them.

[Watermark]

no one, as was said before, shit happens.

Yes, 2ds, thank you for quoting ME.



As nice as it is to be able to make someone accountable for everythign the fact of the matter is 20%+ of all pregnancies terminate in miscarriges for reasons that have nothing to with anything except chance.

-2ds

Yes, I KNOW the facts. I've experienced it FIRST HAND, I've already explained this in a previous post to JL.

[Eileen]

Is this post parody, or do you really treat this woman as a prostitute? You'll give her your riches if she'll bear your child? What the fuck!?

[ApeTheDog]

Unless you have a very good reason to suspect she would do this and unless she is a horrible person (like a drug abusing illiterate, swearing coldhearted suicidal bitch of some sort) you should just dismiss the idea right away.

[Jacque]

"We" had the miscarriage, but "she" had the abortion??? You're in then you get out...sigh.

[MacGuffin]

This is the craziest fucking thread I have read in while.

Thumbs up! :thumbup:

[Watermark]

Ah, the wonders of alcohol. ;) :ph34r:

[iponjs]

This was nature's version of a mercy killing. This household had no business bringing a child into the world. A moral vacuum...

"Incubate my seed, you mendacious whore, and I will share my riches."

Must not believe in natural selection - otherwise why choose someone with no self esteem and questionable integrity to mother your child?

Easily the most disturbing thread I've seen. The human race is disgusting.

[xXHalighXx]

Waaaiiit.....you watched it come out, and you stood idley by watching as she flushed it? You didn't pull it out of the toilet and attempt mouth to mouth? You didn't do a damned thing? If you think she might be guilty of "murder"....your a murder accomplice. Evil fuck.

[meshou]

Waaaiiit.....you watched it come out, and you stood idley by watching as she flushed it? You didn't pull it out of the toilet and attempt mouth to mouth? You didn't do a damned thing? If you think she might be guilty of "murder"....your a murder accomplice. Evil fuck.
At eight weeks, it's the size of a freakishly large lima bean. Two inches long at the most.

In order for it to be murder, the fetus would have to have lungs. It doesn't at that age. I'm not even sure it would have had genitals.

There was nothing to do but that. It could not have lived. I believer the youngest a fetus is viable is 25-27 weeks.

[Serotonin]

At eight weeks, it's the size of a freakishly large lima bean. Two inches long at the most.

In order for it to be murder, the fetus would have to have lungs. It doesn't at that age. I'm not even sure it would have had genitals.

There was nothing to do but that. It could not have lived. I believer the youngest a fetus is viable is 25-27 weeks.

I always thought it was 24. 22-23 being the shaky touch-and-go area.

[mgb]

So, your significant other has a miscarriage and your first thought is that she is a selfish bitch who did it on purpose because deep down she doesn't want to have kids, just live off your wealth?

I think if Keirsey ever saw this site he would take INTPs out of the "Rationals" section.

[meshou]

So, your significant other has a miscarriage and your first thought is that she is a selfish bitch who did it on purpose because deep down she doesn't want to have kids, just live off your wealth?

I think if Keirsey ever saw this site he would take INTPs out of the "Rationals" section.
Inferior Fe kicks us in the collective metaphorical balls once again.

Damn you inferior F eeeeeee!

</KAAAAAAHN!>

[Mariel]

i'm glad i kept reading, as the sentiments in my post would have been nearly identical to meshou's.

[Spartan26]

While it's easy to dismiss the thread topic as sheer lunacy, (after all don't golddigging women TRY to get pregnant to hook a guy for his money???), or be enraged at the complete level of selfish ignorance, (I think I cut my chin in my desk when my jaw dropped at first, then I re-read it two times making sure intpoor proof reading caused some words to be dropped and inadvertantly changed the meaing), in what is by no means advocasy nor condoning, I can say the rage and tone J.L. expressed matched that of people I've known who've lost children or miscarried late in pregnancy.

Violent outbursts against strangers, irrational blaming of others, like the guy "who installed the sprinkler did something to the cable line that caused an eletromagnetic field to build up..." by otherwise normal, loving, decent intelligent people. Like giving some conspiracy nuts some bad acid and throw them in a steriod rage, then you'll get a picture of what they're like.

Maybe I'll look back over the thread. I feel like there's a powerful message somewhere in here, I'm just having a little problem recognizing it.

[meshou]

While it's easy to dismiss the thread topic as sheer lunacy, (after all don't golddigging women TRY to get pregnant to hook a guy for his money???), or be enraged at the complete level of selfish ignorance, (I think I cut my chin in my desk when my jaw dropped at first, then I re-read it two times making sure intpoor proof reading caused some words to be dropped and inadvertantly changed the meaing), in what is by no means advocasy nor condoning, I can say the rage and tone J.L. expressed matched that of people I've known who've lost children or miscarried late in pregnancy.

Violent outbursts against strangers, irrational blaming of others, like the guy "who installed the sprinkler did something to the cable line that caused an eletromagnetic field to build up..." by otherwise normal, loving, decent intelligent people. Like giving some conspiracy nuts some bad acid and throw them in a steriod rage, then you'll get a picture of what they're like.

Maybe I'll look back over the thread. I feel like there's a powerful message somewhere in here, I'm just having a little problem recognizing it.
Try "harming others because you hurt, no matter how reasonable the hurt is, is evil." And "'Normal, decent, intilligent people' still do evil things."

Yes, I'm one of those suckers who believes in evil. Go fig.

[xXHalighXx]

At eight weeks, it's the size of a freakishly large lima bean. Two inches long at the most.

In order for it to be murder, the fetus would have to have lungs. It doesn't at that age. I'm not even sure it would have had genitals.

There was nothing to do but that. It could not have lived. I believer the youngest a fetus is viable is 25-27 weeks.

No shit. That's how stupid he is...can't be murder.

[Spartan26]

Try "harming others because you hurt, no matter how reasonable the hurt is, is evil." And "'Normal, decent, intilligent people' still do evil things."

Yes, I'm one of those suckers who believes in evil. Go fig.
I'm not disagreeing, just stating what it reminded me of.

[Miss Anthropic]

Miscarriages are nature's way of taking care of some genetic mistakes. For some reason or other the fetus most likely had something wrong with it. I can't believe your selfish view of this situation, in fact, I have a hard time taking you seriously. Litigation. What a jerk.

[cjs55]

The less human beings in the world, the better. Makes sense to me, unless it's your own genetic code at stake. In which case, some amount of pain is reasonable.

The responses are comical, as usual, however. Grand job sir!

[crofbe]

For every 100 eggs exposed to sperm:

* 84 are fertilized
* 69 implant in the uterus
* 42 live the first week
* 37 live six weeks
* 31 are born alive


i felt the need to put that. for clarity, or whatnot.

[attila_the_hunny]

I think what makes me laugh the most is that he thinks his sperm is the healthiest and can not have any flaws. Out of millions, they are all simply perfect, and it is all her fault.
God, you're bitch for not having a perfect egg for my thousands of perfect sperm!
Also, I don't think this guy should be having kids. He has children with other women? He has concubines that will be well off as long as they pass on his genetic material. I sense a conspiracy here and have concluded it is not Wal-Mart that will rule this world--it will be this man and his millions of children to contaminate us!

[Star Cannon]

Just _how_ rich are you and did the woman want that baby?

[Star Cannon]

Oh, and by the way, your paranoia is your own fault. Making a deal like that is like asking for something bad to happen. plus your... stupidity in this matter is quite disgusting really. If you wife ever sees this thread, I hope she dumps you.

[tragula]

My wife and I went through the experience. Miscarriage is incredibly common. This is a bit gross, so don't read if you are squeamish, but we fished the little sack out of the toilet and took it to the OBGYN in a tupperware container. They didn't want anything to do with it, unless it was a repeat problem, in which case they analyze it. I remember the nurse just chucking it in the garbage, and then having a second thought and giving us a worried look. We didn't care.

It was extremely traumatic, and ruined our wedding for me a bit, which was just a week later, and couldn't be moved. I didn't really recover from the blow until the birth of our son about a year later! And because we were lucky enough to have a healthy kid, I now look back on the miscarriage as a tiny little incident. (In fact my wife would otherwise have been pregnant during 9/11, which was not a great time to be pregnant in NYC.)

Anyway, enough personal stuff. I did some research afterwards. Other than finding out it is extremely common, and that it sometimes is nature's way of aborting a somehow abnormal fetus. I also found out that some researchers do think there are some environmental factors that could cause miscarriage sometimes. Overheating the body, such as through a strong workout (Bikram yoga!), or a sauna/hot tub. Also, plane travel is not recommended for early pregnancies, believe it or not because of "cosmic radiation". (If I remember correctly flight attendants have higher rates of miscarriage.) And lastly, most fire detectors have a small amount of a radioactive substance in them. It turns out it is the cheapest way to make fire detectors, go figure. But, if anyone has one right above their bed or anything, I personally would recommend changing it for one without a radioactive substance. Edit: Sitting in front of a CRT monitor all day is possibly not such a great idea either, unless it has a shield.

(Those are my 2 cents on miscarriage, placed here for lack of a better spot. I will refrain from throwing myself onto the outrage pile, except to say that it is in the moments of truth that we often see the best or the worst aspects of people's true nature come to the surface.)

[ohnoaninfp]

WTF, are you fucking with us? Emotion is not always an afterthought for INTPs. We are not robots. Don't blame this on her -- it sounds like you made some pretty stupid choices.

(why am I lecturing a grown man about accountability?)
Wow for once I agree with garak. The miscarriage wasn't her fault nor yours. It just happened. Why would you want to take legal action against her? Its not like she had an abortion. She is probably just as upset as you are or even more so.

[moni]

tragula, your post was very informational. thank you for sharing all of that!

[antireconciler]

On the other hand, it's good to know I could count on you all to understand and correct me calmly and rationally if I ever said something as crazy as Alpins here. Wow.

[Avengardh]

On the other hand, it's good to know I could count on you all to understand and correct me calmly and rationally if I ever said something as crazy as Alpins here. Wow.
The times change....around here...:D.

[kikthinking]

if you even suspect that she deliberately miscarried, then your relationship is fucked up. actually, it has nothing to do with her; it's you that's messed up in the head. how can you even accuse of her of such? if you are that logical INTP, where's the evidence?

sorry for the harshness, but i think some will agree with me that what he's saying is fucked up. maybe he's going through quite an emotional phase, but he needs to snap out of it. that kind of thought is dangerous and it can seriously hurt and scar someone (including himself).

[euterpenc]

What qualifies something as manslaughter?

[Serotonin]

What qualifies something as manslaughter?

Deliberate intention to harm or maim, but not kill.

[J.L. des Alpins]

Let's be straight: this is my thread, and I did initiated it because I truly felt the need for. My motivation for getting this thing going was genuine. My family and I were then (and still are in a way) going through some difficult emotional ordeal. I posted here my "raw" thoughts as a plea for reasonable guidance. (And truly, I mean it, the posts of many of you really helped me when I needed it most...thank you a million.)

I am just surprised from some of the replies that my plea for help generated.

As a fact, I have not asked for help in any other forums, but in INTP Central. (Just a note here, for the records: there are no secrets between my partner and I. As was highlighted by female members who were right all along, my partner did suffered most of the pain of the situation).

You know, it really helped me (and indirectly my partner) to cope with this difficult emotional situation that in the most intense moments, I could type a few lines in this forum. I read everyone's posts and, in a way, each helped me.

From the bottom of my heart, I am giving you my most sincere thanks.

JL

[kikthinking]

now i feel like an ass.

[T.J.]

Let's be straight: this is my thread, and I did initiated it because I truly felt the need for. My motivation for getting this thing going was genuine. My family and I were then (and still are in a way) going through some difficult emotional ordeal. I posted here my "raw" thoughts as a plea for reasonable guidance. (And truly, I mean it, the posts of many of you really helped me when I needed it most...thank you a million.)

I am just surprised from some of the replies that my plea for help generated.

As a fact, I have not asked for help in any other forums, but in INTP Central. (Just a note here, for the records: there are no secrets between my partner and I. As was highlighted by female members who were right all along, my partner did suffered most of the pain of the situation).

You know, it really helped me (and indirectly my partner) to cope with this difficult emotional situation that in the most intense moments, I could type a few lines in this forum. I read everyone's posts and, in a way, each helped me.

From the bottom of my heart, I am giving you my most sincere thanks.

JL

I may think you're rather nutty, JL, but you do come across as very sincere. Kudos for your courage to post what you feel and then learn from it, and I'm glad to hear that the emotional situation seems to have progressed beyond the immediate trauma.

[MaroonBells]

My partner was pregnant from my seed. After eight weeks, we experienced a miscarriage. My partner and I witnessed the very small human being coming out of her: its little legs, its lttle arms, its very little head.

This experience has be the most disturbing shock I've been hit with in half a century.

What the fuck did my partner do wrong? A human being just cannot be flushed just like that.

Is she guilty of manslaugther?

This is a serious question. Your insight is most appreciated.

JL

I am really sorry for you and your partner. This is not your fault, not her fault.

It happens beyond your control. As much as you would like to attribute it to something, you can't, and you shouldn't. One doctor attributed miscarriages to chromosomal abnormalities at conception. A lot of factors play into a healthy conception, pregnancy and birth. You can't pinpoint it and you should not feel guilty.

I hope the two of you are doing a little better now. Take your time.

PS: My wife thought that the handful of licorice she had once during pregnancy was the reason...

[Madrigal]

Jesus fuck. Do you even know the chances of a woman miscarrying in the first eight weeks? Up to twenty percent. One out of fucking five. Women you have impregnated have likely had miscarrages, even if they didn't know about it.

And even if she did decide to abort, abortion is not manslaughter. You can fucking divorce her, but if you're not married to her, no court in any country that didn't deserve a neuclear blast would allow you to fucking rent a woman's utereus with any sort of penalties to her.

Even if you did pay for her food, room, board, fuck jewlrey, whatever, you do not fucking own her.

What if she fucking did genuinely want a kid, and she went through this, and you fucking try and sue her for misusing her utereus, like it's your fucking property, when something she considered her baby just died in front of her? What the fuck is wrong with you?

This is one of the most disgusting things I've hever heard. With a one in five chance, you not only give her the benefit of the doubt, you fucking get on your knees and apologize for even thinking it, then get your sorry ass out of her sight. No one deserves someone like you at a time like that.

You're a genius! Why keep typing? You said it all! I'm starting your fan club.

That guy is such a fucking loser. Too bad he didn't get flushed down himself.

[illusivemind]

Is there a clear biological line which marks the difference between a human life, a human person and the organic matter that goes into making that person? No.
It is an arbitrary line, but one well worth drawing.

We do not regard infants as having the same rights as adults, there is a progression of rights handed to different stages of childhood. I am of the view that a women's autonomy clearly trumps the attributed rights of the growing foetus. To what point in the pregnancy is of course debatable.

However, why is this such a contentious issue? Aside from all the religous implications, there is a strongly rooted biological/emotive case.

The purpose of a human being is to facilitate the survival and reproduction of gene's. It is no wonder then that such strong emotional ties are made to children. The thought of killing one's offspring is antithetical to everything a human being is.

However miscarriages of babies which the body determines are unsuitable for reproduction are vary common, across the whole of the natural world. Even when babies are born infanticide is practiced by many mammals who have to calculate the reources available and the genetic fitness of their offspring.

So I can only speculate as to the emotional impact on mother and father when a miscarriage or abortion occurs. It must be devestating. It is natural that it should be so.

You have my deepest sympathies. JL.

[MacGuffin]

PLACE-HOLDER FOR CLASSIC STATUS

[Leftfield]

My partner was pregnant from my seed. After eight weeks, we experienced a miscarriage. My partner and I witnessed the very small human being coming out of her: its little legs, its lttle arms, its very little head.

This experience has be the most disturbing shock I've been hit with in half a century.

What the fuck did my partner do wrong? A human being just cannot be flushed just like that.

Is she guilty of manslaugther?

This is a serious question. Your insight is most appreciated.

JL

Quite simply, it was the best and most rational conclusion for both parties (the carrier and the very pre-mature baby).

What is the alternative, let it grow incorrectly in the fetus and when it comes out, it is much larger? Either way it wasn't mean to be this time.

[ironicersatz]

I'm sorry to hear for your loss. Miscarriages happen more often than any would like to admit, because it is such a misfortune. I had a sister who was miscarried, it came close to scarring my mom for life. Fortunately, my sister was born a year later on the same day -replacing a day of mourning with celebration. I hope all the best, my thoughts are with you.



I don't know of any drugs that can precipitate a miscarriage.

Levonorgestrel, accutane, claravis, ethanol......horrible.

[LongSilence]

Necromancy in a Dead Fetus Thread. Hmmm, tasty.


Jesus fuck. Do you even know the chances of a woman miscarrying in the first eight weeks? Up to twenty percent. One out of fucking five.

Perhaps that just means there are a lot of women out there who know what they are doing and should be held to account by gullible men.

[Niffer]

PWNT!

[The Goof]

PLACE-HOLDER FOR CLASSIC STATUS

I second the motion.

[Utopmk]

I realize this is an old thread. I understand how traumatic this might be. I had considered abortion with my first (biological) son, until I viewed the ultrasound. To see such fragile life, that resembles a human being, and especially with it belonging to you and your partner seriously tugs at your heart. It isn't so real, until you've experienced this. Luckily, we chose to keep him, and what a blessing has that been. He is so beautiful. I look at him, and I feel promise and hope. Things I had given up on for myself. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/yurduhzeez3/pic061707_8.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/yurduhzeez3/khay2222.jpg Now I am one of those people who proudly shows off their children's pictures. All conflicts aside, I was lucky enough to reproduce with a partner that understood that it is up to both the male and female, rather or not to keep the baby. My point is, after the female liberation movement, women may have became a little too liberated. Sure, your uterus may be yours, but you would have quite a hard time reproducing without the sperm of a male. To assume ownership of your body is one thing, but to assume ownership over a human being, just because it is growing inside of you is ignorant and unfair. It should be a joint decision. If you don't want to get pregnant, there are a variety of things you can do to prevent it happening to your body, but after it starts forming into a human being, you can no longer claim ownership. Understand that I am pro-choice in extreme circumstances, but being a father has changed my view point completely. I am sorry this happened to you and your girlfriend J.L. des Alpins. Unless she is really sick and psychotic, I don't think she did it on purpose. Even if she did though, there would be no way to prove it. Also, you would run the risk of unfairly accusing her of something horrible. If you want to have a child with a woman, you may want to hang around alot to make sure that it has the best chances of surviving. You may encourage a healthy lifestyle for your mate. [/opinion]