Corporal punishment for children by parents.

[cwazyonyx]

I am curious about where INTP's in general stand on physical punishment for children by parents.

I think it is not right to hit a child, but do not necessarily fault those parents that do strike their child. If the parent treats it merely as a consequence of a bad (whatever that is) action, and do not strike their child to satisfy their own anger for what their child has done, I can accept that. In fact it can be more just (in the child's mind) sometimes, than revoking their liberties and freedom for a week or so. Sometimes whatever was done just needs to be dealt with in a quick and succinct manner.

But hitting a child out of anger is one of the most hypocritical things a parent can do - and ineffectual, as far as conveying the proper lesson. It is hypocritical because we as a society constantly preach that violence is not the way to settle issues or deal with anger, and further, that picking on someone that is weaker than you is wrong. It is ineffectual to hit a child out of anger because they lose sight of what was wrong about their actions and focus on never getting caught again.

All they've really learned is not to get caught and not to piss off mom and dad. :huh:

[garak]

I am kind of confused with the issue of violence in general. Animals do it, and I'm not completely sure why we "should" think it's bad.

But putting that aside, I generally do not like violence, and I think that any parent that resorts to it is doing just that ... resorting. It means they have failed.

Negative reinforncement by parents in general, I think, is a pretty crappy parenting method. Like you said -- it just teaches sneakiness and dishonesty. Not to mention makes the relationship crappier and just generally makes everyone less happy.

[SheepDog]

First, I think parents are generally too controlling. I'm not saying there is no place for discipline, but I think that the anger you describe is most likely to be a result of the child 'not behaving'. They might as well say, "I'm going to control you, no matter what you want." Well, I happen to believe that children are people, and they are not things to be controlled. Guided, perhaps, even protected (sometimes from themselves), but not controlled.

Second, corporal punishment is violence that is almost never associated with the actual consequences of actions. Arbitrary, punitive actions such as corporal punishment are less likely to have meaning to a child than consequences that are more closely related to their behavior. This seems to me to be the main reason why it only seems to be effective when the parent is around. It is inherently unrelated to the actual behavior.

Spanking is what a lot of people know and understand. It doesn't require thought or analysys. It doesn't require patience. It's "just easier" than other alternatives, in most people's mind. I find all of these to be horrible justifications for it.

[SensEye]

I'm OK with corporal punishment used judiciously. Certainly you should not strike the child out of anger. But kids need boundaries, and the way boundaries get established is by punishing them for not respecting them. This punishment can take various forms, from verbal scolding, to timeouts (get sent to their room or whatever), or spanking.

I would imagine the various techniques would have different levels of effectiveness based on the nature of the individual child's personality.

I think teaching a certain degree of sneakyness is inevitable. But it's all part of the plan as sneakyness requires caution. It's hard to hide you have been climbing on the neighboors garage (which you've been told a hundred times not to do) if you come home with a broken arm.

[cwazyonyx]

First, I think parents are generally too controlling. I'm not saying there is no place for discipline, but I think that the anger you describe is most likely to be a result of the child 'not behaving'. They might as well say, "I'm going to control you, no matter what you want." Well, I happen to believe that children are people, and they are not things to be controlled. Guided, perhaps, even protected (sometimes from themselves), but not controlled.

Second, corporal punishment is violence that is almost never associated with the actual consequences of actions. Arbitrary, punitive actions such as corporal punishment are less likely to have meaning to a child than consequences that are more closely related to their behavior. This seems to me to be the main reason why it only seems to be effective when the parent is around. It is inherently unrelated to the actual behavior.

Spanking is what a lot of people know and understand. It doesn't require thought or analysys. It doesn't require patience. It's "just easier" than other alternatives, in most people's mind. I find all of these to be horrible justifications for it.


well said.

[joft]

I don't see why animals doing anything would justify it... "Some animals are gay, see, it's natural!"

If I were ever to be a parent, which I (DEFINITELY, DEFINITELY, DEFINITELY) won't be, I would rather act like an older brother than anything else

[Nighthawk]

I hope none of you ever have Artisan kids. With all their lying, stealing, cheating, and manipulation ... they just scream out for an ass-beating. (Father of Artisan daughter)

As a young parent, I believed in corporal punishment ... only because I had been raised that way. I changed my opinion over the years as I learned more and after having seen more graphic violence firsthand during the war. Fortunately, I never harmed my kids ... but if I had to do it all over again, I would not use corporal punishment at all.

[Jacque]

I follow the Golden Rule. But if you're conditioning fruit flies... Anyway that cycle won't begin with me. But nevertheless, it has a beginning. A as shy well-behaved child with boistrous phase in between, violence wasn't a part of my upbringing, though I saw it administered to my cousins. I wouldn't raise a child to then hurt it. I don't believe in tough love. Brute force isn't my gift. I've a better hand at fairness, understanding and compassion. You must remain a child at heart to gain their trust, even though they accept you as a parent. Trust is on so many different levels. They'll shelter themselves within your arms for protection, but will they for understanding. When they must run away from you in fear, that is abandonment. Their refuge becomes their stubborness. Trust begins early. I wouldn't introduce them to habits or attachments that must be broken because they're such emotional creatures. Coaxing them with mere words as weapons is the trickiest as they know as much about you as you know about them.

Then there's positve reinforcement vs negative, punish the bad or reward the good. But what happens when you've given too much? Relatives can influential, especially a charismatic uncle (such as mine). We would listen to please him...but again not too much or else his influence should wane. Animals are excellent for instilling responsibility as well as empathy. A child knows when the animal does something wrong. They will also know how painful it is to punish that animal. They will then know how painful it makes us feel when we must punish them. Words and reflection (isolation) won't always do. They must experience. Like you hey have their skepticisms. Like you, all they want is happiness. Hitting them would not aid in that cause.

[Serotonin]

Not big on corporal punishment at all. It was never administered to me, and so I'll never do it to my (potential) kids.

The best way to parent is to love your children, and show that love every day. When they misbehave, the temporary removal of that love (showing reproach) or isolation (sending them to their room) seems to be the best way.

[SheepDog]

I hope none of you ever have Artisan kids. With all their lying, stealing, cheating, and manipulation ... they just scream out for an ass-beating. (Father of Artisan daughter)
I feel guilty admitting it, but I do hope my children are iNtuitives. I like to think that I'll like them for who they are, but it seems like I have a much easier time relating to iNtuitives than to Sensors. Maybe fate/karma/whatever will give me an Artisan to teach me a lesson... :shock:

In any case, I think that adjusting the parenting style to match individual children is probably a good thing if done respectfully. I don't think you could be the same with each child of different personalities and expect it to work equally well. I don't know exactly what an artisan child requires, but I do suspect it's different than what worked for me.

I have a suspicion that consistency between parents would be particularly important for an artisan child. As I recall, your wife was more permissive toward your artisan child than you were, and I have a strong hunch that was a big part of the frustration that I read in your post. Any thoughts on this (or anything else related to and artisan child)?


As a young parent, I believed in corporal punishment ... only because I had been raised that way. I changed my opinion over the years as I learned more and after having seen more graphic violence firsthand during the war. Fortunately, I never harmed my kids ... but if I had to do it all over again, I would not use corporal punishment at all.
It's funny, if there's one response I get from other parents most consistently when I tell them I don't want to spank my children, it's that after a while, I'll probably be more inclined ("just you wait..."). I find your shift away from it to be interesing in that context.

[coffeezombie]

Parents should teach their children to see why their actions are unreasonable, or perhaps make a better attempt to understand their children's feelings. Hitting a kid is treating that kid like an animal. By the way, animals shouldn't be hit either. :P

[Winterpark]

It is hypocritical because we as a society constantly preach that violence is not the way to settle issues or deal with anger, and further, that picking on someone that is weaker than you is wrong.

Yes, it is definitely hypocritical. And I would add one other reason.

e.g. A father hits(punch, spank, whatever...) his 10 years old son out of anger and 5 minutes later when he calms down he sits his boy on his knee and tells him he loves him very much. And that pattern goes on all the time.

It is hypocritical because at one moment the parent exhibits physical violence and verbal attacks on the kid, and the next moment (s)he shows love towards the same kid. That is not just hypocritical, but much more than that. How should the boy feel or what should he think. How can he trust such a parent. You can imagine all the emotional presssure the boy goes thru. Now they love you and you are the sunshine of their lives and the next moment you are just a piece of trash convicted guilty for everything bad that is happening in the family. Such actions are pure non-sense and can cause permanent psychological injuries. So I say NO to corporal punishment. And I strongly hope I will not cross the line and practise it on my own children, if I have any, which I doubt.



I hope none of you ever have Artisan kids. With all their lying, stealing, cheating, and manipulation ... they just scream out for an ass-beating. (Father of Artisan daughter)


I might be wrong, but I think that prescribing lying, cheating, stealing and manipulation to Artisan children is wrong. At least my expirience doesn't show that. For instance my xNTJ sister is one of the worse lyers and manipulators I know. She crafts the world around her the way she likes it to be. Other iNtuitives I know are also very bad behaving children. Me, having the strongest "S" tendencies in my family am the most honest person. I have never lied, cheated or manipulated. I might have done it a few times now when I know that people are scums and I am enforced to do it. But I hate all the games my Extroverted and iNtuitive family members play.

[2ds]

This talk of animals make me think of a bunch of puppies or kittens or whatever. When they are young they dont' understand that being bitten hurts so they don't have any problem biting their siblings. After a while they realise it hurts and only really chomp down on someone if they want to hurt them.

I think spanking is a perfectly acceptable tool to impart knowledge upon a child. the example winterpark gives of a 10yo beaing spanked i find rather distastefull because by that stage there should be far more effective tools for imparting understanding.

I guess I see it as a pre-language sort of tool...

-2ds

[waxwing]

It was done to me often throughout my childhood. I feel sick to think of the way it affected me. I was reading somewhere that NF and NT children really can react badly to being punished, especially when it involves spanking, slapping, whatever. This applies to me, for sure.

It wasn't so much the physical pain that bothered me. I got used to that. It was the shame of being treated like that, like I was incapable of responding to verbal redirection, or a parent who might have tried to reason with me. It was the sheer futility of being punished in a manner that was counterproductive.

Honestly, I see this as a major cop-out, at least in the case of my parents. Perhaps some children may respond well and understand that their parents love them, yet must punish them. For me, it had the opposite effect. Yes, it was hypocritical. Yes, it was shameful. Yes, it made me learn that not crying will prevent another hit. Yes, it fired me up even more inside, so I learned how to keep the anger inside or take it out on myself.

I was a fiery child -- stubborn, passionate, mercurial. When I did/said something that my parents deemed worthy of corporal punishment, I never once felt that they understood why I did it. They did not have the patience to listen to me or try to understand, but only were interested in controlling my tongue. Yes, it was most often my tongue that got me in trouble.

As a result, and perhaps even in the midst of that period of my life, I learned that my understanding of respect and love is antithetical to my parents'. I wil never respect an authority figure who shows me disrespect. And no, I will not hit my children even at the risk of "sparing the rod/spoiling the child."

Talk about being stripped of the one thing that means the most to me --my need to question authority and understand "why." In my definition of respect, a child should question authority. In doing so, (s)he may choose to act in accordance with her own mind, heart, and will. What is the point of doing something "just because...?"

This thread got me fired up.

[Serotonin]

One especially evil "justification" for spanking is the parent saying "This is going to hurt me more than it will hurt you". To have the chutzpah and wit, as a child, to say: "Well how about you drop your pants and give me the belt" would be magical. Sadly, however, having a confused mind in your formative years, I doubt any child would have it.

[Winterpark]

very well said, waxwing. I can totally relate to you cause I have been a victim too.

[Pierce]

Corporal punished can be good or bad, depending on how it's administered. In anger, it is seldom controlled enough to do any good. On the other hand, temporary pain is a very effective teacher. It's good for children to learn early that certain undesireable behaviors result in consequences. If that is agreed, then the question becomes, What is an acceptable consequence? I suppose it depends on the kid and the situation. I remember as a child, not minding a spanking (if I deserved it -- which I sometimes did) -- but I had a strong aversion to being spanked in public; I could not bear the humiliation. On a practical note, my own sons, given a choice of punishment, would choose a spanking. A few moments of physical discomfort vs. loss of privilidges or extra chores seemed a bargain to them at times. Giving them a choice was my wife's idea. She was trying to get out of giving them a spanking and was quite distraught when they chose it over her "nicer" consequences. I sometimes think of it as a quick way to release guilt for kids too -- better than them stewing over it for hours and hours -- it makes for quick and unambiguous closure. Now that I'm older and looking forward to grandkids someday, the thought of spanking grandkids is unthinkable! I haven't changed my thougts about corporal punishment -- just my own willingness to administer it.

In recognition of Waxwings response, I note that spanking is not a substitute for communicating.

[Winterpark]

One especially evil "justification" for spanking is the parent saying "This is going to hurt me more than it will hurt you". To have the chutzpah and wit, as a child, to say: "Well how about you drop your pants and give me the belt" would be magical. Sadly, however, having a confused mind in your formative years, I doubt any child would have it.

Now you 've made me feel evil :devil: and revengous :banghead: :laser:

[nonsequitur]

A big NO on my end. Like Waxwing, I've been a victim of it often in my childhood. And I think it's equally unacceptable to hit "Artisan" kids. Growing up, I probably behaved more like an SP than an NP, not that I had any idea about personality theory then. No one bothered to explain why something was wrong to me, all that i remembered was that i got hit whenever i did something "unacceptable". Hence my inability to stomach almost any form of authority today. I still don't accept that hitting me was "for my own good", because I turned out okay IN SPITE of the beatings, not because of it. It has also probably resulted in my lower-than-normal self-esteem too. I've long given up being angry at my parents, because it's obvious that that was the way that they were brought up too. But if I ever have kids, I would take the time to explain, rather than beat them so that they learn "what is good". If I could never have had "good" and "bad" conditioned into me that way, there's no way I could expect others to learn that way.

Also, with regards to corporal punishment, where do you draw the line? What is "okay"? spanking? And what is justifiable? I used to get hit because I was "lazy" and didn't get certain grades. Is that justifiable? They were trying to beat the "laziness" out of me. Also, sometimes, they hit me because I spoke out of turn, or was "too loud". Is that justifiable? What is the line? My theory is that once you cross that line and hit your own children, almost anything can be justifiable. Anything the child does is a flaw in their character, something innate, to be beaten out of them. I would much prefer to teach by reasoning and rewarding. My parents beat into me what is socially acceptable, and never praised me for doing anything right. There is no way I'm ever going to treat my kid like that. What is more, in my country, teachers used to (until very recently) hit students. It was, again, "justifiable" on the grounds that teachers had the "authority" to punish. I got hit by teachers when I was younger too, for things like being unable to pay attention in class, forgetting homework etc. Since I was spending more time in school with my teachers than with my parents, it seemed "justifiable" that they would take the role of "disciplining".

It seems like corporal punishment takes the mentality of "don't give me trouble" more than teaching the child. All I knew was that I was being hit, I don't remember why, nor the reasoning behind why what I did was "wrong". What is worse, sometimes, my parents would take my sister and brother's words over mine, and hit me because I had "misbehaved". Even when the truth came to light, there was no apology, no recognition that they had done me wrong, etc. If I was still upset about it, it was my problem, and I should "get over it".

NO to corporal punishment on ALL accounts.

*Edit: When I say that my parents "hit me", I wish people to understand that they hit me using a cane on my legs, leaving marks that would stay for weeks - it wasn't a simple hit on the palm. My classmates used to marvel at the swelling and count the number of stripes. Naturally, no one reported it because it was "normal" in my country, and acceptable. Like Waxwing, this thread just fired me up because it's so personal. Probably nothing I said is based on "reason", and it is probably an emotional reaction to what happened. In any case, I still say no.

[waxwing]

And I think it's equally unacceptable to hit "Artisan" kids. Good point. I would say the same for Traditionalist (SJ) children although it is difficult for me to imagine the impact there.



Growing up, I probably behaved more like an SP than an NP, not that I had any idea about personality theory then. No one bothered to explain why something was wrong to me, all that i remembered was that i got hit whenever i did something "unacceptable". Hence my inability to stomach almost any form of authority today. I still don't accept that hitting me was "for my own good", because I turned out okay IN SPITE of the beatings, not because of it. It has also probably resulted in my lower-than-normal self-esteem too. I've long given up being angry at my parents, because it's obvious that that was the way that they were brought up too. But if I ever have kids, I would take the time to explain, rather than beat them so that they learn "what is good". If I could never have had "good" and "bad" conditioned into me that way, there's no way I could expect others to learn that way. A resounding "yes."



It seems like corporal punishment takes the mentality of "don't give me trouble" more than teaching the child. All I knew was that I was being hit, I don't remember why, nor the reasoning behind why what I did was "wrong". What is worse, sometimes, my parents would take my sister and brother's words over mine, and hit me because I had "misbehaved". Even when the truth came to light, there was no apology, no recognition that they had done me wrong, etc. If I was still upset about it, it was my problem, and I should "get over it". Yes, seems like a sign of parental weakness. I usually assumed that my parents did not have a reason for what they said or did because they never gave me a good reason. Some bullshit reason like "You need to learn to obey even if you don't understand why!" Uh, no. Then as I learned the importance of apologizing when I was wrong, I never saw that modeled by my parents. Why are they never wrong?

[waxwing]

*Edit: When I say that my parents "hit me", I wish people to understand that they hit me using a cane on my legs, leaving marks that would stay for weeks - it wasn't a simple hit on the palm. My classmates used to marvel at the swelling and count the number of stripes. Naturally, no one reported it because it was "normal" in my country, and acceptable. Like Waxwing, this thread just fired me up because it's so personal. Probably nothing I said is based on "reason", and it is probably an emotional reaction to what happened. In any case, I still say no.
(deep sigh)

I wish I knew you as a kid. It hurt to be alone.

[Serotonin]

Yes, seems like a sign of parental weakness. I usually assumed that my parents did not have a reason for what they said or did because they never game me a good reason. Some bullshit reason like "You need to learn to obey even if you don't understand why!" Uh, no. Then as I learned the importance of apologizing when I was wrong, I never saw that modeled by my parents. Why are they never wrong?

It's actually a tenet of many fundamentalist Christian churches that the parent's word is final on a matter, regardless of how "right" or "wrong" they are, and children talking back, whatever the situation, is inherently insolent and must be punished.
Read this and make your blood boil: http://www.christcorner.com/book1-4.html
So I think there is a possible religious element to this.

[nonsequitur]

(deep sigh)

I wish I knew you as a kid. It hurt to be alone.

*reaches out of INTP-ish isolation for a hug* :smooch:

I know how you feel. As a kid, the isolation and inability to do anything about it was horrible.

[waxwing]

It's actually a tenet of many fundamentalist Christian churches that the parent's word is final on a matter, regardless of how "right" or "wrong" they are, and children talking back, whatever the situation, is inherently insolent and must be punished.
Read this and make your blood boil: http://www.christcorner.com/book1-4.html
So I think there is a possible religious element to this.
http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/mad.gif
Absolutely. That article is hauntingly familiar. The tone and wording are sickening as well.

[Serotonin]

Naturally, no one reported it because it was "normal" in my country, and acceptable.

I don't think it's a "country" thing. But I'm only saying this because I'm Australian and was never spanked.
I think there is a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of attitude amongst parents though. The attitude of "Yes, I know it'll probably harm my son/daughter down the track, but godammit they are so annoying! Can't they behave?"
From the incidents in public when I have seen women smacking their children on the rear (and it always seems to be women, and not only that, but large, corpulent women who seem to eat more potato chips than all their kids put together, roll up their special edition Women'sWeeklyshockhorrorbradandangelina magazine and hit their kids with it), it always seems that the child misbehaves at least as much, if not more, after the smack.
Maybe it's because I see the parent's frustration, and not the child's restlessness, so much more clearly, that I wince every time I see corporal punishment being doled out.
I think "there goes the perpetuation of misunderstanding, abuse, selfishness and bad temper down the generations, endlessly".

[nonsequitur]

It's actually a tenet of many fundamentalist Christian churches that the parent's word is final on a matter, regardless of how "right" or "wrong" they are, and children talking back, whatever the situation, is inherently insolent and must be punished.
Read this and make your blood boil: http://www.christcorner.com/book1-4.html
So I think there is a possible religious element to this.

On the other hand, I came from a country where the Chinese is a majority race, and grew up in a "traditional" Chinese, patriarchial family which has no Christian links. I think parents would use almost anything to justify their actions, and this systematic abuse is even more common in nations like China and Muslim nations, where wives, apart from the children, are also hit. But reading that website, it does make me amazed at the hypocrisy. Jesus Christ died on a cross for these people to hit their children in self-righteousness.

(I'm not a christian, but couldn't help spotting that.)

[nonsequitur]

I don't think it's a "country" thing. But I'm only saying this because I'm Australian and was never spanked.
I think there is a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of attitude amongst parents though. The attitude of "Yes, I know it'll probably harm my son/daughter down the track, but godammit they are so annoying! Can't they behave?"
From the incidents in public when I have seen women smacking their children on the rear (and it always seems to be women, and not only that, but large, corpulent women who seem to eat more potato chips than all their kids put together, roll up their special edition Women'sWeeklyshockhorrorbradandangelina magazine and hit their kids with it), it always seems that the child misbehaves at least as much, if not more, after the smack.
Maybe it's because I see the parent's frustration, and not the child's restlessness, so much more clearly, that I wince every time I see corporal punishment being doled out.
I think "there goes the perpetuation of misunderstanding, abuse, selfishness and bad temper down the generations, endlessly".


Lol Serotonin, I didn't grow up in Australia. I grew up in.. (are you surprised? really?) Singapore. and it is very acceptable there. In fact, parents are encouraged to "discipline" their children that way - if children misbehave, it's because the parents didn't hit/"discipline" them enough. Though teachers are no longer allowed to do so, theoretically, children can be hit by their parents as long as they don't end up in hospital with broken bones - and no one reports it.

Also, it's not necessarily so that children would behave exactly like their parents. Though I was hit, there's no way I would do that to my kids. I would rather not have kids than take that risk.

[Seishi]

I believe corporal punishment is a poor form of discipline most of the time. However, there are times when I have given a smack to a toddler. Never more than one swat and just with a hand on their bottom, always used as a quick attention-getter for dangerous situations. Rarely made them cry, just startled them and let them know very directly that this was serious! Once a child is older other forms of discipline should always be used.
I am sorry that some of your childhoods were scarred by harsh treatment...


I wanted to add that those fundamentalist christian sects (don't even get me started... :rant: ) totally misquote scripture when it comes to corporal punishment. As you may know, they favored "spare the rod, spoil the child" line does NOT refer to hitting anyone or anything. It's in reference to the shepherd's crook used to guide sheep (not smack them). Parents are supposed to guide and direct their children, it has nothing to do with hitting them...

[waxwing]

*reaches out of INTP-ish isolation for a hug* :smooch:

I know how you feel. As a kid, the isolation and inability to do anything about it was horrible.
Yeah....a hug. Much needed.

[Serotonin]

Lol Serotonin, I didn't grow up in Australia. I grew up in.. (are you surprised? really?) Singapore.

Very surprised actually :huh:. I know Singaporeans are very strict about things like hygeine and drugs, but I didn't know that extended to corporal punishment.
But there you go. I assumed you meant Aus since you didn't state where you grew up. But to assume makes an ass out of u and me. :P (Poor David Brent joke).
*runs for cover*

[Lee]

I am not really for it, but some mild form of corporal punishment under certain situations is fine in my book. I also would not like to dictate to other parents how to raise thier child, which makes any laws surronding this issue very... awkward.

[Vagabond]

I am sick and tired of reading/hearing about kids that were "born evil" and crap like that. Children have some natural tendencies, like basic traits of personality, but whether they develop in a healthy or an unhealthy way is mostly related to the experiences they have. Guess who is responsible for a child's experiences in their early years. Artisans in general being what Nighthawk describes is nonsense. I have an ESFP sister and her level of honesty is more like what winterpark describes of himself - too honest. And I don't mean very honest, I mean *too* honest (for her own good and everyone else's). Whether you like it or not, you are responsible too if your kid went bad. You are not a parent just because you happened to give birth, and your role is not just to buy them things. You can pretend you did everything right and your kid is "satanic" or something, or you can try to see what you did wrong in your relationship with them.

Physical punishment is useless and harmful. It may put barriers between you and your kid, it may make him live for the moment he will get away from you, it may make him depressed if he gets the idea you don't love him because *you don't try to communicate*, you don't try to understand them, you try to impose your wishes on him. Basically hitting your kid is a statement about who puts the rules, who runs the show, who is the boss etc. I am sure I won't be interested in showing "who the boss is" to my kids. Cause see, I won't be their boss, I will be their mother. And what I will need to do, is communicate with them and help them feel comfortable enough to develop the strengths of their personality, whatever those may be. Because you are the grownup that knows stuff, and s/he is the child that has a lot to learn from experiences. Saying "my kid is evil" instead of saying "I am not a competent parent" is delusionally dodging your responsibility on the "weaker" party.

[MacGuffin]

I am sick and tired of hearing that fucking speech. You know? These people come out of rehab they always have the same story. "Well you know, I became an alcoholic because my parents didn't love me enough. And then I became a junkie because my parents didn't love me enough. And I went into hypnosis and therapy and I found out that parents used to hit me." Hey! My parents used to beat the living shit out of me! Ok? And looking back on it, I'm glad they did! And I'm looking forward to beating the shit out of my kids, aren't you? For no reason whatsoever. *thbbt* "What'd you hit me for?" "Shutup and get out there and mow the lawn for Christs sake!" There's therapy for ya! Mowing the lawn and crying at the same time. "The Leary kids in therapy again. Their lawn looks great, it's unbelieveable!"

Seriously, it is heartbreaking what some of you have posted about your childhoods. But I don't believe corporal punishment is always bad for all occasions. I got spanked as a kid sometimes, but it was rare. And I don't really think less of my parents for doing it. If it is not done in anger, or to cause a lot of pain/damage, just used to get a kid's attention and is accompanied by an actual discussion and used rarely - I'm probably not going to worry too much about it.

[cwazyonyx]

This talk of animals make me think of a bunch of puppies or kittens or whatever. When they are young they dont' understand that being bitten hurts so they don't have any problem biting their siblings. After a while they realise it hurts and only really chomp down on someone if they want to hurt them.

I think spanking is a perfectly acceptable tool to impart knowledge upon a child. the example winterpark gives of a 10yo beaing spanked i find rather distastefull because by that stage there should be far more effective tools for imparting understanding.

I guess I see it as a pre-language sort of tool...

-2ds

it is very simple to convey your feelings to a child. they are very sensitive to the energy we give off - no language necessary. one look and a child can know that you are displeased with them and know that their actions were the cause. again all the spanking will teach them for sure is that you are angry and when you are you will hurt them. they're getting the same information just with pain, fear, confusion, and emotional trauma.

[Nighthawk]

Whether you like it or not, you are responsible too if your kid went bad. ... said the person with no kids. Come back and talk to me about it after you've spent 20 years raising a few.

I hate to shatter your world, but some kids are born bad ... and there is very little you can do to change them. If you should every happen to conceive one, you will see what I mean. There are some children with whom you can try anything and everything ... to no avail. I had one of those children. She didn't finally grow up until she was convicted of a crime. Yes, I wasn't the perfect parent ... but I devoted infinitely more time, effort, patience, and love to her than to my son. Son turned out fine, daughter did not.

While my generalization of Artisan problems was tongue-in-cheek, they do present some challenges that other types will not. Guardian and Idealist children will generally be more cooperative. Rationals are easier to reason with. Of course, as with any generalization ... the problems do not apply to all Artisans. My apologies to the good ones out there that I have tarred with this brush. I can, however, give you quite a few examples of Artisan who displayed all of the negative traits I describe earlier. Most of the negative experiences in my life revolve around Artisans and their impulsive risk taking. So, I guess I am biased.

[cwazyonyx]

It's actually a tenet of many fundamentalist Christian churches that the parent's word is final on a matter, regardless of how "right" or "wrong" they are, and children talking back, whatever the situation, is inherently insolent and must be punished.
Read this and make your blood boil: http://www.christcorner.com/book1-4.html
So I think there is a possible religious element to this.


now perhaps i should be more open-minded, but i had to stop reading. my b.s. filter was sounding the alarm and i couldn't concentrate.

[Nighthawk]

I might be wrong, but I think that prescribing lying, cheating, stealing and manipulation to Artisan children is wrong. At least my expirience doesn't show that. For instance my xNTJ sister is one of the worse lyers and manipulators I know. She crafts the world around her the way she likes it to be. Other iNtuitives I know are also very bad behaving children. Me, having the strongest "S" tendencies in my family am the most honest person. I have never lied, cheated or manipulated. I might have done it a few times now when I know that people are scums and I am enforced to do it. But I hate all the games my Extroverted and iNtuitive family members play.
Sorry ... it was a tongue-in-cheek comment. As with any generalization, it does not apply across the board. Any implication that all Artisans are liars, cheats, and thieves is, of course, false. Unfortunately, my experiences with Artisans has been very bad, and I now avoid them like the plague ... especially ESTPs. Pretty much every source of outside negativity in my life has had an Artisan associated with it. It is now a personal bias I have.

[Nighthawk]

I've noticed that most (all?) of the perspectives here are from that of the child. Any parents out there who have made it through a decade or two of parenting? Particularly the teenage years?

[Nighthawk]

And I think it's equally unacceptable to hit "Artisan" kids.
I think it is unacceptable to hit any of the 4 types. From my experience however, I've found that Artisan kids respond well to logical consequences of actions. More so perhaps, than the other 3 types.



*Edit: When I say that my parents "hit me", I wish people to understand that they hit me using a cane on my legs, leaving marks that would stay for weeks - it wasn't a simple hit on the palm. My classmates used to marvel at the swelling and count the number of stripes. Naturally, no one reported it because it was "normal" in my country, and acceptable. Sounds familiar. It was belts and wire hangers for the beatings I received as a child. The entire backside was the target ... from shoulders down to calves. Of course, my father would dispense with all this and just backhand me across the face or punch me. He was also pretty good a beaning me the back of the head with his shoe as I was running away.

[SheepDog]

I've noticed that most (all?) of the perspectives here are from that of the child. Any parents out there who have made it through a decade or two of parenting? Particularly the teenage years?I was sincere in asking for your thoughts, since I'm just beginning the journey that you have been on for years. I hope I didn't come off as sarcastic, because I wasn't.

[coffeezombie]

I hate to shatter your world, but some kids are born bad ... and there is very little you can do to change them.

If that is indeed the case, then I would argue that hitting such kids would only make them behave worse, as in, give them the idea that physical violence is an acceptable way to accomplish one's goals. Your supposition may be correct, that there are some people who will not learn until they experience the true consequences of a malevolent action in terms of a loss of freedom (ie jail time), but I don't think violence is a motivator to these types of people either.

[Nighthawk]

I was sincere in asking for your thoughts, since I'm just beginning the journey that you have been on for years. I hope I didn't come off as sarcastic, because I wasn't.
Not at all. My views on parenting are probably towards the dark side, since it was a negative experience for me with one of my children. I think you can take heart however, that statistically you stand a good chance of having a better time of it. I think my experience was towards the low end of the bell curve.

I think the teenage years are a challenge, since you have a de facto adult for whom you are responsible by law. It is a struggle for freedom ... which can be a good thing. Otherwise the offspring would just live with you forever. It is also quiet a change from having been almost worshiped during their younger years, to suddenly being the biggest moron on the face of the planet. Mine are just now considering coming to me for advice at ages 23 and 21. Sometimes it is all I can do to bite my tongue and tell them, "Just do what you would have done at 16 ... you had all the answers then."

Unfortunately, I do not (never did) have all the answers ... so sometimes the only advice I can give is for them to do what makes the most sense to them for their situation. I think there is an expectation from kids that parents be good at parenting. However, most parents are just learning it as they go along, barely reaching the journeyman stage by the time their kids are grown. Very few parents ever make it to expert.

[Nighthawk]

If that is indeed the case, then I would argue that hitting such kids would only make them behave worse, as in, give them the idea that physical violence is an acceptable way to accomplish one's goals. Your supposition may be correct, that there are some people who will not learn until they experience the true consequences of a malevolent action in terms of a loss of freedom (ie jail time), but I don't think violence is a motivator to these types of people either.
I agree. My position is against corporal punishment. I wasn't meaning to imply that it is ok to hit children just because they are "bad"

[meshou]

Speaking as a kid who was beaten by one parent and spanked by another, comparing the two are absolutely ridiculious. One was soul destroying. The other I was over in half an hour.



It seems like corporal punishment takes the mentality of "don't give me trouble" more than teaching the child. All I knew was that I was being hit, I don't remember why, nor the reasoning behind why what I did was "wrong". What is worse, sometimes, my parents would take my sister and brother's words over mine, and hit me because I had "misbehaved". Even when the truth came to light, there was no apology, no recognition that they had done me wrong, etc. If I was still upset about it, it was my problem, and I should "get over it". Have you ever dealth with a ten year old? Here's how it works--

They have absolutely no idea what they are doing is wrong. The one I'm babysitting now will burn tissues if you let him. If you tell him why, he will disagree till the end of time, then keep doing it. In fact, discussion is one of his favorite ways out of being sent to his room or spanked. Talk about it long enough, you can get out of anything.

But if you send him to his room, he stops. When his dad spanked him, he stops.

If you give him any room in the future to justify his actions, he will. That's not because he has a good understanding of what he did, it's because he understands that it gets him out of being punished, and lets him continue to do whatever he wants.

So yes, you will be wrong. Yes, this is horribly unfair. Yes, you remember spanking and being grounded, and not the reason why. That's because the reason why didn't matter to you as a kid. All that mattered was the concequences were unpleasant.

Plus, it taught you the valuable lesson life is not fair.

Children don't have the ability to reasonably understand why things are wrong until at least high school age. Litterally, they are not that developed. (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=14hmkfa08c8ec?tname=kohlberg-s-stages-of-moral-development&curtab=2222_1&hl=summum&hl=bonum&sbid=lc01b) All they have is concequence-avoidance based moraility. So, the best you can do for a parent at that stage is make doing things like setting things on fire as unpleasant for them as possible without damaging their psyche.

I think that after eight or so, a very occasional spanking that doesn't leave a mark isn't going to crush their soul, and is very unpleasant.

[Winterpark]

You know, the worst thing I fear is that living in an environment where things I find wrong and bad are constantly being done, eventually will influence me in a way that will make me a part of it. I fear that being exposed and under the influence of things like that can lead to acquiring them and becoming a self-hating person. It seems that that's the only way to survive in the environment you live in, you just have to accept certain things as norms and standards. Even if you persistently refuse to accept something, it looks like it has its own way of invading you thru your sub-conscience. It is very hard to rebel and fight against all the things that shatter your perception of what is right and how it should be. Sometimes I think that suicide is the only way to win over all the unjustice and not surrender to the slavory of life. Reading this thread has made me weep to dead.

[Nighthawk]

Sometimes I think that suicide is the only way to win over all the unjustice and not surrender to the slavory of life. Reading this thread has made me weep to dead.
Please consider options other than suicide. I'd hate to see a person like you taken from this world. PM me if you'd like to talk.

[Vagabond]

... said the person with no kids. ...who is however entitled to her opinion.

[Nighthawk]

...who is however entitled to her opinion.Agreed ;)

[2ds]

it is very simple to convey your feelings to a child. they are very sensitive to the energy we give off - no language necessary. one look and a child can know that you are displeased with them and know that their actions were the cause. again all the spanking will teach them for sure is that you are angry and when you are you will hurt them. they're getting the same information just with pain, fear, confusion, and emotional trauma.


BULLSHIT!

i've more than once been assulted by a boisterous child who no ammount of calm words and patience could calm. I've never hit them but I tend to believe that the only way to communicate to them that they are hurting me is probably to hurt them back. (eg a kid was hitting me with a ruler the other day and i asked him to stop and he didn't. I asked him very sinceerly and patiently but he was too hyped up to take any notice of me).

Yes pain is being used to communicate a message, it doesn't necessarily have to have fear, confusion and emotional trauma attached to it, just because you guys (the collectively close minded posters on this topic) assosiate it with this. Please tell me what a more reasonable and effective response to this child who was doing his best to beat me up would be than to prove to him that getting hit by someone hurts.

-2ds

[waxwing]

You know, the worst thing I fear is that living in an environment where things I find wrong and bad are constantly being done, eventually will influence me in a way that will make me a part of it. I fear that being exposed and under the influence of things like that can lead to acquiring them and becoming a self-hating person. It seems that that's the only way to survive in the environment you live in, you just have to accept certain things as norms and standards. Even if you persistently refuse to accept something, it looks like it has its own way of invading you thru your sub-conscience. It is very hard to rebel and fight against all the things that shatter your perception of what is right and how it should be. Sometimes I think that suicide is the only way to win over all the unjustice and not surrender to the slavory of life. Reading this thread has made me weep to dead. Winterpark,
Weep, yes, but not forever. You voice is too valuable. You have the unique advantage of understanding violence and destruction in a way that many others cannot. I believe that it is people like you who can incite change, and see to it that the very cycles that brought you to this junction in your life will not continue to wreak havoc indefinitely. I too have feared that I will become the person I most hate. It simply...cannot happen.

"It's a sad and beautiful world." -sparklehorse

[Watermark]

I've noticed that most (all?) of the perspectives here are from that of the child. Any parents out there who have made it through a decade or two of parenting? Particularly the teenage years?

Nighthawk: Given that there are few of us in this camp, I'll back you up. I have two teenage NTs. While NTs are easier to reason with and parent, they still can be troublesome especially as a young child. No, NTs don't all sit quietly in their rooms all day long, building houses with their legos or reading their novels or contemplating about the stars at night with their telescopes. They can be disobedient and out of control. I sympathize with you about your experiences with your esfp daughter. My boss has an esfp niece who is very similar. There ARE some children who are more difficult to parent, from day one, like there are children who are the most quiet and obedient anyone has ever seen.

My 2 cents:
Do I believe in corporal punishment - NO. BUT, there are times that it happens that you serve it up, that in some circumstances it is all you have left in your parental toolbox - either that or let your child harm themselves. I've seen my aunt and uncle in the same position. They were extremely patient with their daughter's unruly behavior for many, many years. They applied the most generous and 'ethical' punishments, yet, my cousin refused to learn her lessons. One day, my aunt and uncle charged into her room and delivered a spanking she has never forgotten. I've seen my husband do it to his daughter. I have delivered a spanking or two to my children when they were young, when language and reason was impossible. There are times young children are out of control, the spanking actually serves as a 'grounding' tool. I can tell you, a tap on the butt with your hand when they out of control brings them back to reality real quick.


"Well, Watermark, you don't understand. Maybe you didn't experience the childhood I had..."

What kind of chidhood experiences brings me to my position about corporal punishment? My father's philosophy was old military style school of thought - break your children down to build them up. On a daily basis, we were told we were stupid, idiots, worthless. We had spankings on a regular basis, some of us received more than your garden variety of spanking. Physical, emotional abuse. You didn't know what version of my father you'd get from one day to the next, from one hour to the next. He'd hit you and call you stupid one minute, then hug you 5 minutes later having conveniently forgotten about what he did to you. He had a book on his shelf called, "Games People Play", and he applied the principles on us. It was like being in the Twilight Zone.

When I became a young adult, I swore I would never apply corporal punishment to my children. I smugly, indignantly proclaimed this, and judged all parents applying corporal punishment to be unfit parents. Obviously, I was more intelligent than them, superior in knowledge in fact. I stood in my little ivory tower observing and looking down below at the insignificant peons who were obviously of lesser intelligence.

Sound familiar? Don't bother replying to the question. It's rhetorical. Anyway, I had plans to be on hiatus from this board for a while, but, couldn't help but respond to balance out the perspective. It's always easier to judge the situation from the outside, when you've not had the experience first hand. As a parent myself, I understand how sometimes corporal punishment has its place, without it being the 'poster child' for violence in society. [/2cents and back on hiatus]

[Xenophon]

When I was a kid, if I did something really bad then my mother would spank me. This wasn't a common occurance, it was only for when I did something bad and then compounded it by lying about it, or if I didn't something else really super bad. And to this day, I think that it has made me a better person.

Spanking should in no way be a common occurance, but I think there are times when it has to be communicated that certain behaviour is not acceptable. This is the difference between discipline and punishment. Discipline is both acceptable and neccesary, while punishment is neither.

[cwazyonyx]

You know, the worst thing I fear is that living in an environment where things I find wrong and bad are constantly being done, eventually will influence me in a way that will make me a part of it. I fear that being exposed and under the influence of things like that can lead to acquiring them and becoming a self-hating person. It seems that that's the only way to survive in the environment you live in, you just have to accept certain things as norms and standards. Even if you persistently refuse to accept something, it looks like it has its own way of invading you thru your sub-conscience. It is very hard to rebel and fight against all the things that shatter your perception of what is right and how it should be. Sometimes I think that suicide is the only way to win over all the unjustice and not surrender to the slavory of life. Reading this thread has made me weep to dead.

Come on Winterpark. Suicide wins nothing but a life. If you had one person in your life that could have talked some sense to your parents, or at least made you feel that you had someone in your corner, how valuable would they have been?

Now I'm not trying to get all "after school special" on you, but you could be that person for someone. Someone like you is valuable as a live person, you're intelligent, compassionate, empathetic, and because of your personal experience with this issue, you are relatable. You can provide insight, to someone in your shoes, that can give them hope.

If you're gone, that's one less person that can make things right. Stay strong.

[cwazyonyx]

BULLSHIT!

i've more than once been assulted by a boisterous child who no ammount of calm words and patience could calm. I've never hit them but I tend to believe that the only way to communicate to them that they are hurting me is probably to hurt them back. (eg a kid was hitting me with a ruler the other day and i asked him to stop and he didn't. I asked him very sinceerly and patiently but he was too hyped up to take any notice of me).

Yes pain is being used to communicate a message, it doesn't necessarily have to have fear, confusion and emotional trauma attached to it, just because you guys (the collectively close minded posters on this topic) assosiate it with this. Please tell me what a more reasonable and effective response to this child who was doing his best to beat me up would be than to prove to him that getting hit by someone hurts.

-2ds


I was referring to a child that would be your own. One whom you have raised from birth. This child will be tuned in to you, and if you took the time from the beginning to communicate in all ways possible, a look will be enough to communicate displeasure.

To try this with someone else's kid is futile if that child has already been "trained" to be a brat and have no bounds. Everything starts with the parent.

[meshou]

I was referring to a child that would be your own. One whom you have raised from birth. This child will be tuned in to you, and if you took the time from the beginning to communicate in all ways possible, a look will be enough to communicate displeasure.

To try this with someone else's kid is futile if that child has already been "trained" to be a brat and have no bounds. Everything starts with the parent.Genetics has enough to do with temperment that, even if you were the only influence in a child's life, they may not turn out the least bit like you. You will find that even as babies, some are more introverted or thoughtful than others. Your influence isn't going to change that much.

[tragula]

Well. I am against corporal punishment. (Although I don't demonize people who apply very judicious spankings. And I tend to sympathize deeply with people who have extremely difficult children.)

My view on discipline is that it is better to teach good judgement than obedience. Good judgement will help them throughout life. Obedience won't.

As far as punishments go. I think letting your kid experience the consequence of their actions and learn from mistakes is important. A consequence is something that is directly tied to whatever they are doing. Not something that is artificially connected by a parent. That would be controlling, which is a big mistake.

Kids who are excessively punished or controlled may in fact grow up with less of a conscience. That is they will cheat on a test when no one is looking, or worse.

I agree that different kids respond differently. Discipline needs to be customized to the child. Which is where parents can explore the gray areas. For example, physically restraining your kid, by holding them, is perfectly acceptable and called for sometimes.

I have an extremely willful ENTJish kid. He's an angel a lot of the time, but when he gets an idea in his head he will not budge on it, and can be quite physical about carrying out his plan. On occasion I've had to resort to dumping a little water on his head or splashing him. He hates it and it gets his attention. It's bending the rules a little, but in extreme situations it (or even just the threat of it) works great. I do in fact believe that kids need to know who's in charge. Treating them with respect and love is not incompatible with being in charge either.

Consistency in applying discipline is key. So is doing it with a cool head. And the whole "iron fist in a velvet glove" idea is a good thing to keep in mind.

[shum]

i have hit my children. and it is wrong. so very wrong.
i wish, not just here in this post, but in real life that i could say that i have never hit them but i cant. (really i wish that they could say no one has ever physically hurt them, especially not their mother).
i have struck them in times where i could not control my anger and lost sight of my position as a teacher to them.
parents have the responsibilty to teach their children and to help them control their own behaviour and emotions.
i grew up with my mother hitting me often. i still remember everyone asking me where i got the bruise on my face in grade 9. then i married a man that hit me.
i know now that it is this conditioning. i have hit my kids. they may grow up to think its ok to be hit by a partner or may even hit their own kids. or even their partners.

if i have a disagreement with a friend it would not be acceptable to lash out at them. even if they do something terrible or detrimental to their own health, it is still not ok to hit them.

so why would it ever be ok to hit someone you are supposed to be nurturing and teaching?
i have to make a conscious effort not to hit them when they act up. it really is my first reaction and i have taken parenting classes ( i was a volunteer co-ordinator at a "family place") and read all the books.
i havent hit them for a long time and i have apologised for the times i have. but what does that mean after the fact?

and i am currently dating a man who hit me last year. only once though.

i dont want my kids to grow up hitting or being hit and cant see how hitting them ( judicial spankings, whatever) will ever support their self esteem or teach them anything other than hitting is ok.

[nonsequitur]

Not at all. My views on parenting are probably towards the dark side, since it was a negative experience for me with one of my children. I think you can take heart however, that statistically you stand a good chance of having a better time of it. I think my experience was towards the low end of the bell curve.

I think the teenage years are a challenge, since you have a de facto adult for whom you are responsible by law. It is a struggle for freedom ... which can be a good thing. Otherwise the offspring would just live with you forever. It is also quiet a change from having been almost worshiped during their younger years, to suddenly being the biggest moron on the face of the planet. Mine are just now considering coming to me for advice at ages 23 and 21. Sometimes it is all I can do to bite my tongue and tell them, "Just do what you would have done at 16 ... you had all the answers then."

Unfortunately, I do not (never did) have all the answers ... so sometimes the only advice I can give is for them to do what makes the most sense to them for their situation. I think there is an expectation from kids that parents be good at parenting. However, most parents are just learning it as they go along, barely reaching the journeyman stage by the time their kids are grown. Very few parents ever make it to expert.


Nighthawk, I do understand your stand as a parent, and my parents are pretty similar to you in certain ways. Like I said, I understand them, and have long given up my anger. Personally, I would not hit my children, because I think that there are better ways of teaching them. You might disagree and use it as a last resort - but I think we both agree that repeated beatings will not make the children learn anything. If there is a spanking to occur, it must take on special meaning and emphasis, and the action must be justified. What I take issue with is where you can draw such a line. What is deemed "worthy" of a spanking?

With regards to those who say that people should accept that "life is unfair" and not blame our parents for our own current behavior, I agree with you because I turned out okay after all. But in spite of that, I still can't get over the frequent beatings even though they ended when I was 12. I still am utterly terrified of my dad, even after adolescence, and nothing can change that. I still have problems confiding anything in anyone, including immediate family members, and I can't seem to overcome the psychological barrier that they will use that information against me. And I have a very basic distrust of all men above a certain age. Perhaps it's because everyone is different - we all deal with different things in different ways, and mine was to shut everything inside.

I don't blame my parents for the difficulties that I have today, just let me emphasise. I'm trying to work on overcoming them. But it's not easy, and for those who use corporal punishment on their children, it's really important to know the potential effects it can have. More importantly, you have to know where to draw the line. My parents hit me for almost anything, including grades, and used to slap me across the face in public to get me to shut up - not that I was loud or anything. Where do you draw the line? What is the one action that you deem a justifiable reason?

[philonightmare]

It was done to me often throughout my childhood. I feel sick to think of the way it affected me. I was reading somewhere that NF and NT children really can react badly to being punished, especially when it involves spanking, slapping, whatever. This applies to me, for sure.

It wasn't so much the physical pain that bothered me. I got used to that. It was the shame of being treated like that, like I was incapable of responding to verbal redirection, or a parent who might have tried to reason with me. It was the sheer futility of being punished in a manner that was counterproductive.

Honestly, I see this as a major cop-out, at least in the case of my parents. Perhaps some children may respond well and understand that their parents love them, yet must punish them. For me, it had the opposite effect. Yes, it was hypocritical. Yes, it was shameful. Yes, it made me learn that not crying will prevent another hit. Yes, it fired me up even more inside, so I learned how to keep the anger inside or take it out on myself.

I was a fiery child -- stubborn, passionate, mercurial. When I did/said something that my parents deemed worthy of corporal punishment, I never once felt that they understood why I did it. They did not have the patience to listen to me or try to understand, but only were interested in controlling my tongue. Yes, it was most often my tongue that got me in trouble.

As a result, and perhaps even in the midst of that period of my life, I learned that my understanding of respect and love is antithetical to my parents'. I wil never respect an authority figure who shows me disrespect. And no, I will not hit my children even at the risk of "sparing the rod/spoiling the child."

Talk about being stripped of the one thing that means the most to me --my need to question authority and understand "why." In my definition of respect, a child should question authority. In doing so, (s)he may choose to act in accordance with her own mind, heart, and will. What is the point of doing something "just because...?"

This thread got me fired up.

I can relate to everything you said, waxwing. I wish I couldn't. :mellow:

[waxwing]

I believe that the following excerpts apply to this discussion although I found them in the context of undertstanding self-injury.

Personally, I find that these explanations shed light on the distinction made between disciplining children as a way to validate and teach, and doing so in a way that is detrimental.

"Linehan (1993a) talks about people who SI having grown up in "invalidating environments." While an abusive home certainly qualifies as invalidating, so do other, "normal," situations. She says:
An invalidating environment is one in which communication of private experiences is met by erratic, inappropriate, or extreme responses. In other words, the expression of private experiences is not validated; instead it is often punished and/or trivialized. the experience of painful emotions [is] disregarded. The individual's interpretations of her own behavior, including the experience of the intents and motivations of the behavior, are dismissed... Invalidation has two primary characteristics. First, it tells the individual that she is wrong in both her description and her analyses of her own experiences, particularly in her views of what is causing her own emotions, beliefs, and actions. Second, it attributes her experiences to socially unacceptable characteristics or personality traits.

This invalidation can take many forms:


"You're angry but you just won't admit it."
"You say no but you mean yes, i know."
"You really did do (something you in truth hadn't). Stop lying."
"You're being hypersensitive."
"You're just lazy."
"I won't let you manipulate me like that."
"Cheer up. Snap out of it. You can get over this."
"If you'd just look on the bright side and stop being a pessimist..."
"You're just not trying hard enough."
"I'll give you something to cry about!"
Everyone experiences invalidations like these at some time or another, but for people brought up in invalidating environments, these messages are constantly received. Parents may mean well but be too uncomfortable with negative emotion to allow their children to express it, and the result is unintentional invalidation. Chronic invalidation can lead to almost subconscious self-invalidation and self-distrust, and to the "I never mattered" feelings van der Kolk et al. describe.

And another excerpt from the same site:

Self-capacities and Invalidation

A constructivist theory of self-injurious behavior (Deiter, Nicholls, & Pearlman, 2000) holds that people who self-injure usually have not developed three important self-capacities: the ability to tolerate strong affect, the ability to maintain a sense of self-worth, and the ability to maintain a sense of connection to others. The first of these speaks directly to the affect-regulation role of self-harm; the others are perhaps related to its communicative functions.

Pearlman et al. (2000) note that "when children experience shaming and punitive rhetoric or physical blows rather than responsive words" they cannot internalize others are loving and cannot develop the capacity to maintain a sense of connection to others. They further state, "The ability to experience, tolerate, and integrate strong affect cannot develop fully when strong feelings are met with punishment or derision." Having a sense that some feelings are unacceptable and not allowed also impairs this ability. And the ability to maintain a sense of oneself as a person of worth cannot be developed when a child never feels she is good enough, when her "existence and accomplishments are met with silence or abusive words or actions."

Interestingly, all of these conditions are found in invalidating environments, which Linehan and others have tied to future self-injury.

Finally, Haines and Williams (1997) found that self-mutilators reported more use of problem avoidance as a coping strategy and perceived themselves to have less control over problem-solving options. This feeling of disempowerment may in turn be related to the chronic invalidation many self-injurers have experienced.


The above are excerpts from


http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/injury.html (http://www.palace.net/%7Ellama/psych/injury.html)

[Nighthawk]

What kind of childhood experiences brings me to my position about corporal punishment? My father's philosophy was old military style school of thought - break your children down to build them up. On a daily basis, we were told we were stupid, idiots, worthless. We had spankings on a regular basis, some of us received more than your garden variety of spanking. Physical, emotional abuse. You didn't know what version of my father you'd get from one day to the next, from one hour to the next. He'd hit you and call you stupid one minute, then hug you 5 minutes later having conveniently forgotten about what he did to you. He had a book on his shelf called, "Games People Play", and he applied the principles on us. It was like being in the Twilight Zone.That sounds exactly like my father ... minus the hugs. Plenty of beatings for various offenses, mostly for talking out of place. He preferred backhanded slaps across the face or punches to the back of my head while I was running away. (Mom preferred belts and coat hangers.) I remember when I was 13 he beat me in front of a girl that he knew I liked, for what I can only imagine was the sole reason of humiliating me. The emotional abuse was as you described. His name for me was usually "idiot" or "dumbass." His name for my mom was usually "stupid bitch." I once told him, at age 7 or 8, that when he was old and weak, I would get back at him for everything he did to me. Ironically, I was the one who controlled his life years later when he was terminally ill. I'm glad that I had the compassion not to mistreat him. I still loved him, even though he was a first class jerk. Funny how that works.



When I became a young adult, I swore I would never apply corporal punishment to my children. I smugly, indignantly proclaimed this, and judged all parents applying corporal punishment to be unfit parents. Obviously, I was more intelligent than them, superior in knowledge in fact. I stood in my little ivory tower observing and looking down below at the insignificant peons who were obviously of lesser intelligence.
I swore the exact same thing when I became a father. I failed. While I never went beyond administering a spanking ... I did so out of anger most of the time rather than discipline. Thankfully I never picked up my father's habit of backhanding or punching, although my daughter sorely tried my patience in that department. Another thing I never did was belittle or emotionally abuse them the way my father did with me. I would also apologize to them if I made a mistake ... something neither of my parents would ever do. In all, I think I could have done a better job, but I did the best I knew how at the time.

[Nighthawk]

Nighthawk, I do understand your stand as a parent, and my parents are pretty similar to you in certain ways. Like I said, I understand them, and have long given up my anger. Personally, I would not hit my children, because I think that there are better ways of teaching them. You might disagree and use it as a last resort - but I think we both agree that repeated beatings will not make the children learn anything. If there is a spanking to occur, it must take on special meaning and emphasis, and the action must be justified. What I take issue with is where you can draw such a line. What is deemed "worthy" of a spanking?
As I've grown older, I've been less and less for corporal punishment. The way I am now, I would try not to use it at all. Would I succeed? I don't know. Drawing the line, as you state, is a very difficult thing indeed. For one thing, I would try not to spank a child out of anger. I'd also try to limit it to very serious things for which I could not get results in any other way. It all sounds very clear cut, but in practice it gets very messy. I'd prefer not to do it at all anymore. I've grown weary of violence over the course of my life.



With regards to those who say that people should accept that "life is unfair" and not blame our parents for our own current behavior, I agree with you because I turned out okay after all. But in spite of that, I still can't get over the frequent beatings even though they ended when I was 12. I still am utterly terrified of my dad, even after adolescence, and nothing can change that. I still have problems confiding anything in anyone, including immediate family members, and I can't seem to overcome the psychological barrier that they will use that information against me. And I have a very basic distrust of all men above a certain age. Perhaps it's because everyone is different - we all deal with different things in different ways, and mine was to shut everything inside.
I also still have a hard time getting over the beatings I received ... and most of them were over 30 years ago. My father died over 11 years ago and sometimes I still get so angry with him that I want to spit in his ashes. My mother harbors similar feelings towards him. I can only wonder how I would feel if both parents had been abusive all the time. Your comment about not trusting men above a certain age is interesting. I need to examine myself to see if I have any of that. I know that I've never had a father figure mentor in my entire life. (My father's idea of mentorship was kicking a soccer ball as hard as he could into my 7-year-old gut and then calling me a "pussy" if I cried.) A few people have tried to mentor me, but I've never let them get close enough. I've always taken on the attitude that, as a man, I would do what I needed to do alone ... without any help. I wonder how much of that is due to my NT desire for autonomy, and how much of stems from learned mistrust. Perhaps one fueled the other.



I don't blame my parents for the difficulties that I have today, just let me emphasize. I'm trying to work on overcoming them. But it's not easy, and for those who use corporal punishment on their children, it's really important to know the potential effects it can have. More importantly, you have to know where to draw the line. My parents hit me for almost anything, including grades, and used to slap me across the face in public to get me to shut up - not that I was loud or anything. Where do you draw the line? What is the one action that you deem a justifiable reason?I try not to blame my parents either. It's up to me to make the best of what I've got (left) upstairs. I hope my children don't blame me for any lingering bad feelings. Lord knows I made enough mistakes that warrant some blame. As for drawing the line ... as I stated above, I wish I had a clear answer. What sounds great in theory, often falls apart in practice.

[Miss Anthropic]

Generally I don't believe corporal punishment is effective. Whatever discipline method you choose to use as a parent, it won't be effective unless you are consistant with it every single time the child misbehaves, and the child knows exactly what is acceptable behavior and what is NOT acceptable behavior. Btw serotonin, I don't think withdrawing emotionally, or withholding love is a good discipline technique--that is in the realm of psychological abuse. Generally, when kids know the boundaries, and parents consistantly enforce them, the problems go away. Been there, done that, still parenting a teenager.

[Miss Anthropic]

... said the person with no kids. Come back and talk to me about it after you've spent 20 years raising a few.

I hate to shatter your world, but some kids are born bad ... and there is very little you can do to change them. If you should every happen to conceive one, you will see what I mean. There are some children with whom you can try anything and everything ... to no avail. I had one of those children. She didn't finally grow up until she was convicted of a crime. Yes, I wasn't the perfect parent ... but I devoted infinitely more time, effort, patience, and love to her than to my son. Son turned out fine, daughter did not.

While my generalization of Artisan problems was tongue-in-cheek, they do present some challenges that other types will not. Guardian and Idealist children will generally be more cooperative. Rationals are easier to reason with. Of course, as with any generalization ... the problems do not apply to all Artisans. My apologies to the good ones out there that I have tarred with this brush. I can, however, give you quite a few examples of Artisan who displayed all of the negative traits I describe earlier. Most of the negative experiences in my life revolve around Artisans and their impulsive risk taking. So, I guess I am biased.

I wouldn't say they were born "bad," but they are all definitely born with a certain personality, their own, and despite the parenting, some just have to learn life the hard way. Your example of your son and daughter turning out completely different despite being raised in the same family definitely supports my premise that we are all born who we are, and our environment influences us to a certain extent, but does not create who we are. Anybody who has had children experiences those moments of "Where did I get this kid? Surely no child of mine would behave in this manner!"