Nootropics

[Ascending]

http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=SF&f=169



Nootropics are so-called "smart drugs." The word derives from noos ormind and tropos to bend. Proponents claim that these substances enhancemental performance in a variety of ways, for example by enhancing cognition, memory, oxygen and glucose utilization or bloodcirculation in the brain.


My largest fear? Unseen long term effects. This is not to say I'm not considering experimentation.

[Hustler]

Anyone have any experience with these? I'm looking to boost my poker game, and some of the nootropics seem very promising (most notably piracetam taken in conjunction with choline and centrophenoxine).

[Oso Mocoso]

Nootropics as a way of improving cognition in ordinary people always struck me as wishful thinking. I've actually seen tests that indicate they are useful for older people suffering from age associated memory impairment, but not much for just boosting the intelligence/creativity of ordinary people. That being said, I've tried piracetam, and it definitely gave me a bit of a high and lots of mental energy. I became very acutely aware of my surroundings, and all the noises that were going on around me on the subway. Was it fun? Yeah. Do I think that kind of buzz would be beneficial to performance enough to spend the money on buying piracetam? I'm not convinced.

[Oculus Sinister]

I took adderall for a while. Then I began to abuse it. My concentration was intense and at first all was wonderful. Then it took more and more to get that elated feeling. I always found myself involved in boring activities. Things like vacuuming and putting away the dishes. I found myself developing an unhealthy interest in organization. This is when it was time to seek and help and quit the drug altogether. It had ruined my life. I have the alphabetically organized filing cabinets to prove it.

[Hustler]

Nootropics as a way of improving cognition in ordinary people always struck me as wishful thinking. I've actually seen tests that indicate they are useful for older people suffering from age associated memory impairment, but not much for just boosting the intelligence/creativity of ordinary people. That being said, I've tried piracetam, and it definitely gave me a bit of a high and lots of mental energy. I became very acutely aware of my surroundings, and all the noises that were going on around me on the subway. Was it fun? Yeah. Do I think that kind of buzz would be beneficial to performance enough to spend the money on buying piracetam? I'm not convinced.

What's wishful thinking is believing that the brain doesn't begin getting impaired once you're in your 20s. Anything that has the potential to counteract that or slow it down is certainly worth investigating, especially given its relative low cost and low occurrence of side-effects.

[bluebell]

Flowers for Algernon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowers_for_Algernon)

That said, do you have any links to actual articles, rather than a forum? /lazy

[The_Mighty]

I've tried a bunch of things.

I took Ritalin for a while and had an experience similar to Oculus' (maybe not as extreme).

I took Piracetam with some kind of choline, and wasn't that impressed. I'd try it again, but I seem to remember that it mostly made me feel kind of fuzzy.

I took selegeline regularly for a year. I couldn't really tell if it helped my thinking all that much, but it did make me feel good, and bumped my sex drive. Supposedly it's a neuroprotectant as well.

Of all things, I've actually found that Ginko Biloba seems to have some discernible impact on my thought processes. It's really difficult to pin this down for sure, but I think that my memory is noticably improved while I'm taking it.

In general I've found that the amphetamine related drugs provide a huge temporary boost, but ultimately have shitty side effects, and the other nootropics I've tried are subtle at best.

[Evignus]

I took vinpocetine years ago experimentally and it did make me more 'clear minded' and 'lucid'.

[Deathdust]

I've glanced on the subject of nootropics, but yeah, didn't find any solid "this will make you smarter" labels on anything. But then I guess if that kind of thing was actually out, everyone would be using it.

On a sidenote, I've thought about using Adderall. Only because a friend was doing it for a while.. before she realised she was getting addicted. It is methamphetamine btw.. *Oh.. I just want to try it because I haven't

[Hustler]

So, I've been on a cocktail of piracetam, centrophenoxine, and choline for about 10 days now. The most noticeable effect is that I have more mental endurance. Hour eight of a poker session feels more like hour four. My concentration, focus, and overall clarity used to start to tank at around five hours of poker, but now it doesn't tank at all. If I threw modafinil in the mix, I could probably play my A-game for 24 hours straight.

I have also noticed, on a couple of occasions, a weird sort of euphoria vaguely reminiscent of smoking pot, but more mild and without the loss of mental clarity.

At any rate, I think I'll keep this up for a while, and perhaps even experiment with other nootropics in the future.

[Rivelli]

smart-nutrition.info

I use the get smart combo (lots of the big ones in one pill) and Idebenone. I believe they work very well for me. As for the smarter thing. They don't raise IQ of course. However they do allow me to work at higher levels of cognition to learn quicker.

[stopharian]

Dont let ferrus know that you guys are mixed up in this shit....

Anyhoo Im interested. I feel like my mental functions have taken a bit of a dive in the past 5 years.

I dont know much about the subject. I take 5 htp and GABA once in a while but I dont know if they qualify.

Give me more info on the subject. Hustler, how did you decide on your personal cocktail?

[Hustler]

Dont let ferrus know that you guys are mixed up in this shit....

Anyhoo Im interested. I feel like my mental functions have taken a bit of a dive in the past 5 years.

I dont know much about the subject. I take 5 htp and GABA once in a while but I dont know if they qualify.

Give me more info on the subject. Hustler, how did you decide on your personal cocktail?
Start with 'nootropics' at Wikipedia and get lost in the endless web of links. Eventually, you'll have uncovered enough information to make your decision.

[9421]

When I was younger and more foolish I experimented with ginkgo biloba. Despite the uncertainty surrounding the studies it did work to an extent (this might have been placebo effect, I don't know), but gave me terribly bad headaches. So I didn't buy any more.

But I did, later, participate in clinical trials for a stimulant (I can't remember which one) that worked extremely powerfully without any noticeable side effects. But I asked the researchers when the drug would be available; according to them it still isn't.

I found this thread interesting. I'm going to go back over and see what else is out there.

[mmortal03]

Kava kava is pretty calming without making you really tired (and is supposed to help you think more clearly). I'd like to know more about tyrosine, I've briefly read the wikipedia article, and want to know if there are actually situations where it can do something. Modafinil is one I really need a prescription for. I haven't decided whether ginkgo biloba does anything for me or not.

[thod]

I got smarts coming out my ears and dont need that. I need to get of my ass and actualy do things instead.

[mmortal03]

I got smarts coming out my ears and dont need that. I need to get of my ass and actualy do things instead.

There's a drug for that, too.

[Hustler]

It's my belief that a combination of pramiracetam and modafinil has been referred to in the past as a six-demon bag.

[Anonymous]

It's my belief that a combination of pramiracetam and modafinil has been referred to in the past as a six-demon bag.

Legality aside, what's the best way to buy these?

[rhinosaur]

I have a half-kilogram tub of piracetam in my desk drawer at work. I've never really gotten much of a boost out of it. However, I've never attempted a regular dosing regimen, instead dosing at random times, which I believe makes a difference.

Experientially speaking, it's a crystalline material with the classic alkaloid bitterness. Whenever I take it, I mix it into a bottle of water. I'm sure you could also find pills if you prefer. I bought mine off Ebay.

Anecdotally, I've learned that piracetam is one of the weaker nootropics available.

[Deckard]

Anecdotally, I've learned that piracetam is one of the weaker nootropics available.
According to wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pramiracetam), piracetam 8-30 times weaker than the one Hustler mentioned (pramiracetam). It seems to be implied that they have the same effects.

I would love to get a hold of some of these.

[fripping]

if i only had a medicine, science, or repair skillcheck to need them for. . .

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3059/2824925265_5e1c441958.jpg

[Hustler]

Legality aside, what's the best way to buy these?

Pramiracetam (and most of the other racetams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racetam)) are unregulated, and legal to buy in the United States. Piracetam has even started showing up in vitamin shops. Modafinil is a controlled substance in the United States, and is illegal to purchase domestically without a prescription. You can bring it into the United States for personal use, but no more than 50 doses at a time. You can find it online at various places, but it could be confiscated in transit (unlikely). You could also go to your doctor and claim to have narcolepsy, shift work sleep disorder, or some other type of sleep disorder and see if you can score a prescription. It may be approved for ADHD at this point, as well.

The best alternative, though, is probably just to get adrafinil, which is the precursor to modafinil. Modafinil is the first metabolite of adrafinil in the human body and, as such, adrafinil will function almost identically to modafinil in the body, save that its effects are slightly less powerful and it takes about 45 minutes to kick in. Simply taking a larger dose will produce the same effects, though it will be delayed. Unlike modafinil, adrafinil is unregulated in the United States. It is sold under the trade name Olmifon, and can readily be found from many online sources. It's also cheaper than modafinil.

[rhinosaur]

8-30 times weaker

That's an awfully large margin of error.

[Anonymous]

The best alternative, though, is probably just to get adrafinil, which is the precursor to modafinil. Modafinil is the first metabolite of adrafinil in the human body and, as such, adrafinil will function almost identically to modafinil in the body, save that its effects are slightly less powerful and it takes about 45 minutes to kick in. Simply taking a larger dose will produce the same effects, though it will be delayed. Unlike modafinil, adrafinil is unregulated in the United States. It is sold under the trade name Olmifon, and can readily be found from many online sources. It's also cheaper than modafinil.

Oh hey, that's great, thanks. I only have a vague understanding of metabolic processes, but if Modafinil is the first metabolite, doesn't that mean that it will be metabolized into something else pretty soon after, reducing the duration of the effect in comparison to the actual pill? Though that'd still be better than having no Modafinil at all.

Edit: Never mind, you don't have to answer that. From Erowid, it would appear that even if it does metabolize into something else along the way, it's still pretty effective.

[avolkiteshvara]

I am on day two of aniracetam. It has me grinning like an idiot. Definitely think more like smoking pot. But you are still clear headed. I don't think performance is enhanced that much though. Might be good to combine with something else. I'll check out adrafinil.

[mmortal03]

I've got some piracetam, adrafinil, and hydergine on the way to me, so I'll give an update on what each one does for me in a few weeks.

[avolkiteshvara]

First day of Adrafinil. Digging it.

Although the elevated liver enzyme prospect puts a damper on any consistent long term use.

Might have to hit the doc up for the safer, less side effects of provigil.

[Hustler]

First day of Adrafinil. Digging it.

Although the elevated liver enzyme prospect puts a damper on any consistent long term use.

Might have to hit the doc up for the safer, less side effects of provigil.

Virtually any drug will give an elevated liver enzyme level. I suspect Provigil is no different in that regard, and neither is Tylenol, for that matter.

[avolkiteshvara]

Virtually any drug will give an elevated liver enzyme level. I suspect Provigil is no different in that regard, and neither is Tylenol, for that matter.

So you think the suggested bi-annual testing is propaganda?

[Hustler]

So you think the suggested bi-annual testing is propaganda?

I think if you're going to take any drug on a daily basis, you might consider getting your liver enzymes checked. It usually has more to do with buffers and bonding agents than the drugs themselves. Of course, it's possible adrafinil is more taxing on your liver than other stuff, but my guess is that it isn't significantly worse than acetaminophen, and acetaminophen itself is used as a buffer in some other drugs.

The biannual testing is probably a reasonable precaution, though, if you intend to start taking it on a very regular basis. I don't use adrafinil and/or modafinil on a very regular basis but, rather, only on days when I believe I will need sustained levels of elevated concentration.

[mmortal03]

I've got some piracetam, adrafinil, and hydergine on the way to me, so I'll give an update on what each one does for me in a few weeks.

So, here's an update from me. The adrafinil has helped me out a lot so far. The only immediate side effects I have noticed are: more noticeable tinnitus and pressure in my ears, and some dry mouth. Regarding the piracetam, it seems to have a milder effect on me which I haven't yet been able to put a finger on. The hydergine contributed towards a stuffy nose, so I stopped taking it.

[Cor]

Piracetam, for me, seems to moderately increase sensory perception and memory, but not concentration. It seems to be most effective for promoting long-term learning, and doesn't really replace a stimulant in situations that would require one.

Also, what dosages do you all use? I do 2.2-2.5g piracetam + 100mcg huperzine daily.

[kuranes]

I've tried Gingko Biloba and don't notice any strong effect, but it may be one of those gradually cumulative effects that you don't notice like you would taking a hit of speed.

A B-100 Complex works for me, and I've experimented and found that the most stimulative of these for me is the Pantothenic Acid component. The other B vitamins work synergistically with this and other things, of course. Pantothenic Acid is even said by some to be so stimulative that it could possibly cause nerve damage, I'm guessing from overstimulation, if that caution is even a true statement.

I haven't tried Piracetam, Adderall and some of the less widely available drugs yet.

Sometimes I take Phentermine, which is certainly quite noticeable.

I've often thought of trying this stuff -
http://www.smart-publications.com/memory/SmartDrugsandNutrients_sec5_vasopressin.php

It would be handy to have around if you needed to sober up real fast from pot or booze. If you were someone who is usually or always "on call", and who was enjoying what they had thought was to be their "day off" - then getting the call.....

[stopharian]

Was reading about DHA today but I still dont know much about it. If anyone else does, please chime in.

With regard to Ginseng, make sure you are taking American Ginseng not Korean, Siberian, etc. and stop taking it when you get sick, that is, discontinue during colds or flus.

[barrylevon]

Thinking about getting aniracetam, because pramiracetam is expensive, and then adding a choline supplement to it, because everything I've read so far has said that you should take some form of choline with the racetams to get good results.

Does anyone have any experience with this?

[stuck]

Just go and roll around on the ground. (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100524143416.htm)

[jyng1]

Just go and roll around on the ground. (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100524143416.htm)


"It is interesting to speculate that creating learning environments in schools that include time in the outdoors where M. vaccae is present may decrease anxiety and improve the ability to learn new tasks."

That's quite interesting... EOTC and Outdoor Education has been extoling the virtues of learning outsides the confines of the four walls of a standard classroom for decades. As far as I know, there has been little research into any other benefits apart from the psycological.

Eco-psychology has it's base in the inherent benefits of forming a relationship with humanities natural environment. It would be interesting to find that we are merely 'infected' by the outdoor environment and that this has a beneficial effect.

[avolkiteshvara]

That's quite interesting... EOTC and Outdoor Education has been extoling the virtues of learning outsides the confines of the four walls of a standard classroom for decades. As far as I know, there has been little research into any other benefits apart from the psycological.

Eco-psychology has it's base in the inherent benefits of forming a relationship with humanities natural environment. It would be interesting to find that we are merely 'infected' by the outdoor environment and that this has a beneficial effect.

Doesn't surprise me. I remember reading some study of people taking their lunch breaks by going for a walk in the park or a trail. Supposedly reinvigorates your mind and keeps you sharp for the next 4 hours. Had something to do with visual imagery of foliage as you moved forward. Also we somehow absorb and benefit from certain airborne nutrients that trees give off as a part of their collective immune system. DJM might know more about it.

[stuck]

Piracetam is pretty interesting.

I've been taking it here and there for a bit. It wakes me up right when it hits my bloodstream and focuses my eyes, about as quickly as caffeine. It makes me more focused, rational. It enhances colors. It improves my cognition in a very curious way- it feels like the actions of memorizing, concentrating, and coordinating are easier and more pleasant.

The one negative effect I have noticed is that emotions are slightly attenuated, adding an extra bit of objective distance.

Aniracetam, however, I haven't really gotten as much of a feeling from. It seems sleepier and murkier, more like being a little stoned. It's not unpleasant, just a bit inconvenient. Aniracetam also has the negative effect of a bit of hypersensitivity- it makes something like an aching joint or bug bite feel a little worse.

I'd like to try the other two common racetams to see if either might be useful.

All in all, I kind of forget to take them until I have some specific tasks that I feel they'd be good for- taking care of some business, exploring a new technique or subject that requires some potentially painful learning. They're good for stressful situations because they make me decisive and slightly assertive.

They're not great for faking inspiration, however. Not much is.

Gladly, some of the effects feel permanent. My cognition feels a little sharper even when I haven't taken the nootropics for a few weeks, as if I had learned some 'tricks' or something.

[synagogue]

OK... that sounds awesome, I need to look into that. Thanks.

*just flat-out bookmarks page, goes to bed.*

[Randwulf]

I've been taking Piracetam daily for about half a year, and Aniracetam about twice a week for a few months. I take both with Choline Citrate, at a 1:1 choline:Piracetam ratio and a 4:1 choline:Aniracetam ratio.

The nootropic effects of Piracetam are quite subtle, but definitely there. Here's a good exercise: for a few days, take a tally of each time you can't think of the word you're looking for. After taking Piracetam for a few weeks, do this again. Piracetam is often credited with increases in articulateness, and I have noticed this effect in myself. It's not like an in-your-face WOW I'M SMARTER NOW, but if you examine your cognition closely, you will see benefits. Also, I used to have somewhat shaky hands. Piracetam has taken care of that. And Piracetam before bed gives me awesome dreams :)

In patients with any sort of brain damage or old-age related decrease in brain function, the effects of Piracetam have been studied pretty extensively and appear to be dramatic. So, old farts, get popping them pills. The effects of Piracetam on healthy, young people have been studied less, and the studies that have been done often show only minor cognition enhancement.

One important note about Piracetam: it seems to potentiate the effects of other psychoactive drugs, and mixing Piracetam with recreational drugs such as amphetamines and narcotics can be dangerous. Piracetam increases blood flow to the brain, which allows an increased amount of other chemicals to cross the blood-brain barrier. Essentially, if a certain drug damages your brain, then Piracetam may increase the damage that it causes.

Aniracetam is a bit more in-your-face. After using Aniracetam for just a few days, I noticed a tangible increase in calmness and focus. I always take one with lunch on Monday, my brutal 7-hour boring class death day, and it turns me into a note-taking, boredom-immune robot. It also makes me a bit more sociable. Aniracetam is however more expensive and shorter lasting than Piracetam.

I have in fact become physically addicted to Piracetam, but it's an easy addiction to break when necessary, and I break it for a week every month just as a cautionary move (although many people have taken in daily for 25+ years and have had no real ill-effects). Piracetam withdrawal begins about 2 days after I stop taking Piracetam and ends about three days after that. I don't notice anything during the day, but when I go to bed I get a bit sweaty and anxious. I do not notice withdrawal effects from Aniracetam. Myoclonus patients can suffer from seizures upon abruptly ending Piracetam treatment. The general advice is to reduce the dosage by 500mg every two days, but going cold turkey only causes me minor issues.

All in all, I'd recommend that everyone try Piracetam with choline, and unless they get headaches or sleepiness or some other bad side effect, continue doing so for at least a month, which is when the effects reach their plateau.

I take 3.2g Piracetam daily with 3g Choline Citrate.

[Resonance]

I'm probably pretty close to being given an ADHD diagnosis. When/if that happens, medication is the next logical step.

That's really the only reason I'm hesitant to push it along. I can deal with being ADHD well enough; I'm not ashamed of who/what I am and stuff like that. But I'm not fully figured out about what it means as far as my identity, my personality - what will I lose by this, and am I prepared to let it go? It may be that all I'll lose is excuses, but I'm not even ready to let go of those, yet.

[JamesGold]

I took 8 grams of piracetam today and didn't notice any increased cognitive ability. All it did was make me feel excitable and a little nauseous. Perhaps to feel the full effects you must take it for a few days.

[stuck]

I took 8 grams of piracetam today and didn't notice any increased cognitive ability. All it did was make me feel excitable and a little nauseous. Perhaps to feel the full effects you must take it for a few days.

That's waaaaaaaay too much. The most I've ever taken is about 1 gram, and even that made me feel dazed. It did take me a little while to start feeling it- a few days. Enthusiasts talk about an attack dose, but, again, it's more like 1 gram a couple times/day.

In any case, just be careful!

[Randwulf]

I took 8 grams of piracetam today and didn't notice any increased cognitive ability. All it did was make me feel excitable and a little nauseous. Perhaps to feel the full effects you must take it for a few days.

More like a few weeks.

Did you take it with choline? That's essential for most people. Also, 8g is pretty high. Try cutting that in half and taking it with choline. It takes some time to figure out the right dosage, and it's different for everyone.

Also, just out of curiosity, what brand of Piracetam?

[Resonance]

choline owns
more specifically, it gets metabolized into acetylcholine
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/ACh-stick.png/300px-ACh-stick.png

one of the most important neurotransmitters

it also seems to be involved in cell membrane production, which is useful

[stuck]

lecithin seems to work as a choline source, and it's pretty cheap.

I finally 'felt' my aniracetam. The onset seems slower than piracetam, and the perceptual effects overshadow the boost to attentiveness. It is interesting, though, and feels a little more pleasant than piracetam these days.

[Resonance]

lecithin seems to work as a choline source, and it's pretty cheap.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choline#Food_sources_of_choline

seems like spinach and eggs have a pretty strong cross product of choline content and tastiness value

gonna get me some of those on the way home

[Randwulf]

lecithin seems to work as a choline source, and it's pretty cheap.

It's also one of the least bio-available choline sources. But it's what I started with and it works all right. It also has lots of benefits not associated with its choline content.

For enhancing nootropics, I found that I get the most bang for my buck with choline citrate, with DMAE and centrophenoxine getting honorable mentions. You can get 500 grams of choline citrate for less than $20, and for me that lasts about 200 days.

[stuck]

Spinach just rocks in general. It's one of those perfect foods.

[Resonance]

sorry but I'm gonna stick with my naturalistic fallacy here

if I can get it from food I'm not gonna pop a pill

until I can clearly see that that would be a better way (eg. I get fat)

edit:
because I'm extremely lazy and don't have many utensils or dishes, is it effective to eat spinach out of the bag and dip it in ranch dressing or something? or is there a better way

[Randwulf]

Haha, don't get me wrong, eggs are great, but to get my necessary dose of choline I'd have to eat 6-8 daily. Before I had another choline source I did just eat a bunch of eggs. But it's like cocaine. Eventually you get tired of your nose bleeding and start shooting up instead!

[Resonance]

... that was a low blow

but yeah 1lb of spinach is gonna be a chore

[Robb]

Having thought about this topic for several weeks, I'm interested in trying the pramiracetam and choline.

Suggestions for reputable places to purchase said items?

[indigo]

ALARM:Some stimulants can enhance cognition and memory in some people, but cause psychosis in others.

Has anyone used omega-3 supplements?in what dose? did you see any results?

[indigo]

With regard to Ginseng, make sure you are taking American Ginseng not Korean, Siberian, etc. and stop taking it when you get sick, that is, discontinue during colds or flus.

resources plz.

[CANDYCANE]

1600 to 4800mg a day of EPA+DHA. Really helps improve concentration I don't go without it.

Yaeyama chlorella + powdered multivitamin (http://www.iherb.com/All-One-Nutritech-Rice-Base-Multiple-Vitamin-Mineral-Powder-2-2-lbs-1000-g/11147?at=0) = BRAINGASM OMGGGG

Pycnogenol made colors pop and increased focus but only for a few weeks.

[stuck]

Has anyone used omega-3 supplements?in what dose? did you see any results?

Yeah, we take fish oil here at casa de stuck. Couple grams/day. It seems to steady my nerves and moods, makes my hair shiny, allergies a little better, mental state a little clearer. Results were immediate.

[indigo]

1600 to 4800mg a day of EPA+DHA. Really helps improve concentration I don't go without it.

could u tell me the brand name?


Yeah, we take fish oil here at casa de stuck. Couple grams/day. It seems to steady my nerves and moods, makes my hair shiny, allergies a little better, mental state a little clearer. Results were immediate.

are you kidding?! my ears are not long,I swear!

[CANDYCANE]

could u tell me the brand name?

Carlson's liquid fish oil, economical (half price on amazon) and decent quality. Nordic Naturals was the best I've tried but it's expensive.

I want to experiment with krill oil, apparently it's more potent than fish oil.

[Randwulf]

I didn't notice improved cognition from fish oil. What I did notice were frequent massive nosebleeds. Wtf? I've never heard of it happening to anyone else, and I've linked them to the fish oil beyond reasonable doubt. Ginkgo biloba gives me nosebleeds too, but they aren't as bad. Maybe it's swordfish oil.

[indigo]

I didn't notice improved cognition from fish oil. What I did notice were frequent massive nosebleeds. Wtf? I've never heard of it happening to anyone else, and I've linked them to the fish oil beyond reasonable doubt. Ginkgo biloba gives me nosebleeds too, but they aren't as bad. Maybe it's swordfish oil.

yeah,fish oil and ginko biloba both increase bleeding tendency.
they should be used with caution in coagulopathies.
since you have MASSIVE nosebleeds by taking them,you "must stop" using them.
CBC and coagulation tests are necessary to be done too!

[Randwulf]

yeah,fish oil and ginko biloba both increase bleeding tendency.
they should be used with caution in coagulopathies.
since you have MASSIVE nosebleeds by taking them,you "must stop" using them.
CBC and coagulation tests are necessary to be done too!

Yeah, I've stopped. It does kinda bother me. But I have a long history of not getting medical help until I'm half dead, and there is no problem when I don't take any thinners or whatever they are, so all's well for now.

Eating enough tuna does it too. 30oz or so of white albacore over three or four days also makes my nose bleed, but not as badly. Guess I'll need to get my daily dose of mercury elsewhere.

[indigo]

But I have a long history of not getting medical help until I'm half dead.
:highfive:

[CANDYCANE]

What I did notice were frequent massive nosebleeds.

What is your diet like? Maybe you have nutrient deficiencies.

Been on krill oil the past couple weeks and it seems to work like the expensive fish oil. Practically bounding out of bed, better mood, concentration, memory. I'm only taking the recommended dosage too lol. The pills are small. Is it placebo/other factors? WHO KNOWS! Time will tell..

[Phreon]

I'm wondering if any of you have any more reports regarding ongoing use of nootropics. Given the stress I've been under, the prospect of increased mental stamina is intriguing. Lets just say it feels like I haven't been able to bring my "A game" for a long time. I need to get through the next few months with focus and clarity and then get my shit together. Beyond that, reports of better concentration, better musical creativity, etc. are quite enticing.

There are quite a few racetams to chose from, piracetam being the oldest and best understood. Most everything I've read seems to indicate it's a good "base drug" that synergistically mixes well with other racetams like Aniracitam, etc.

There is a ton of anecdotal info on the net, but I'm looking for direct experience or empirical data regarding:

Pramiracetam
Piracetam
Oxiracetam
Aniracetam

I'm also a bit worried about interactions with migraine medications like Sumatriptan or Butalb (Acetaminophen and Butalbitol, a mild barbituate) or the potential to aggravate migraines.

Reports or resources would be greatly appreciated,
Phreon

[Resonance]

brief flirtations with adderall: yup I guess I do have ADHD

holy cow what a difference

I didn't realize how much time I waste getting up and moving around, alt-tabbing, wiggling my mouse around the screen etc. until I stopped doing it

[Randwulf]

I'm wondering if any of you have any more reports regarding ongoing use of nootropics. Given the stress I've been under, the prospect of increased mental stamina is intriguing. Lets just say it feels like I haven't been able to bring my "A game" for a long time. I need to get through the next few months with focus and clarity and then get my shit together. Beyond that, reports of better concentration, better musical creativity, etc. are quite enticing.

There are quite a few racetams to chose from, piracetam being the oldest and best understood. Most everything I've read seems to indicate it's a good "base drug" that synergistically mixes well with other racetams like Aniracitam, etc.

There is a ton of anecdotal info on the net, but I'm looking for direct experience or empirical data regarding:

Pramiracetam
Piracetam
Oxiracetam
Aniracetam

I'm also a bit worried about interactions with migraine medications like Sumatriptan or Butalb (Acetaminophen and Butalbitol, a mild barbituate) or the potential to aggravate migraines.

Reports or resources would be greatly appreciated,
Phreon

I've heard that Piracetam increases the effects of other psychoactive drugs, but I haven't heard of that synergy ever endangering anyone. Any chance you could get off the migraine medication for a couple of weeks to try Piracetam solo?

Piracetam does cause headaches for some people (usually because they aren't supplementing with choline).

[stuck]

I would not want to be on a racetam during a migraine. woo, that'd be bad. Aniracetam makes me feel any physical aches. For instance, my teeth are kinda sensitive, and Ani makes me feel like I need a root canal. I got used to it, but it's a little distracting.

And yes, piracetam has caused mild headaches when I wasn't used to it/perhaps wasn't getting enough choline.

[Phreon]

Hmmm. To clarify, I take only as necessary. Sumatriptan (Imitrex) is a triptan / serotonin receptor agonist. The Fioricet is just a pain killer.

Maybe I should just start with choline and see if there's a negative/positive impact on migraine frequency.

Thanks,
Phreon

[Phreon]

Well,

I have a big ol' tub of Choline Bitartrate, a quantity of Aniracetam powder and piracetam caps (750mg). Any suggestions how to take the powdered forms without barfing? Or am I going to have to get a capsule set?

Phreon

[Skinart]

What I recommend is adding the Choline to a glass of water. It's water soluble and the end product is like water with lemon juice in it. A little sugar and you have "lemonade". The Aniracetam I just dump under my tongue and wash it down with the Cholinade.

[Phreon]

What I recommend is adding the Choline to a glass of water. It's water soluble and the end product is like water with lemon juice in it. A little sugar and you have "lemonade". The Aniracetam I just dump under my tongue and wash it down with the Cholinade.

Does your supply of Aniracetam have any flavor? What I have is almost flavorless, which is surprising since I've read online accounts that it tastes horrible. Honestly, I don't think I could differentiate it from corn starch except that it's fluffier and will not dissolve in water. For all I know, I'm ingesting powdered melanine!

The choline bitartrate however is quite pungent. At first, I was taking both at the same time and didn't differentiate between the two.

Phreon

[stuck]

Piracetam tastes like nazi sugar.

[Phreon]

What about aniracetam though?

Phreon

[Skinart]

Argh. Server killed my post.

@Phreon: My aniracetam is like yours. It's mostly texture, about like corn starch, but not as slippery, and lighter. The lack of taste and insolubility in water is why I just dump my 1/4tsp in the yapper. It also ends wondering how much got left on the inside of the glass.

My choline is choline citrate. It smells like old gym socks, but dissolves easily in cold water. The end result is much less pungent. All you taste is the citrate with gives it a flavour between lemon and grapefruit. It's a bit like drinking a flat Fresca. I imagine if you add some ginger you could get to flat Vernor's. I think I must try this in the future.

[Phreon]

Having experimented with Piracetam, Aniracetam and choline bitartrate for about a week, here's what I can report.

2 750mg Piracetam capsules and between 750 and 1000mg of choline bitartrate in the morning before leaving for work and the same around 4pm. I don't always have the Choline with me in the afternoon, but so far, no ill effects or headaches. I intend to back down to 1 750mg capsule 2 or 3 times a day in another week.

Actually, I had reached the point where I was getting a headache/migraine every other day or so, but since starting the Piracetam and Choline, I haven't had a single one since. Perhaps its coincidence, we'll have to see. I find I don't feel burnt out at the end of the work day and seem more even as well.

As for the Aniracetam, well, it's "interesting". I can't say I feel like it increases memory retention so much as focus and perception. Yesterday morning I took 750mg with choline in the morning and then another round right before a late lunch. Standing in line at Wendy's waiting my turn was "interesting". Every beep, bleep, clunk and conversation rushed at my skull with perfect clarity. I tend to suffer sensory overload at times, so this was a bit much, but I reached equalibrium. I noticed every detail of every person. "Dimples on the bridge of that guy's nose...must have worn sunglasses". Ordinarily, I don't notice these things. And I felt like I was burning holes through the skull of everyone I made eye contact with. I then came home and took a quick nap; I've never had such a realistic, detailed dream. I still remember every detail of it like it happened.

Very interesting indeed,

Phreon

[Phreon]

Several weeks later, I still find the piracetam quite worthwhile. Definitely quicker with thoughts. The increased mental stamina has proven to have a calmative quality. A higher level of motivation has helped me be more effective at work and in turn reduced my stress levels a bit. And I still haven't had a migraine since commencing the Piracetam. The complexity of my dreams continues to be elevated and quite often I find myself feeling as though time is passing quite slowly. Not in an annoying, grinding way, but "It's only 11:30? What to work on next?". Or to put it another way, my sense of time seems different.

I will say there's a subtle down side in that I find myself skipping words more when I type (thinking them but not committing them to the machine) and I've had to adjust how I drive. I wouldn't say I feel distracted, but my attention definitely jumps around to individual details much more frequently. That's probably the Aniracetam more than Piracetam.

I've reduced my use of the Aniracetam, limiting it to when I want a boost. I've found that if I don't have a mental task in mind before taking it, I feel like I'm scanning everything around me for a problem to lock onto and *crush*.

I'm still playing with the dose to eliminate an occasional "brain fog", but overall, I'm quite impressed. I'm semi shocked Piracetam isn't sold like candy.

On a side note, I now find 98% of TV programs unbearably contrived and idiotic.

Phreon

[Robb]

Found a local store that sells choline and piracetam. I have every intention of taking a ridiculous amount of both, ill post back if I don't die.

[Phreon]

Found a local store that sells choline and piracetam. I have every intention of taking a ridiculous amount of both, ill post back if I don't die.


I wouldn't do that. Taking too much choline has nasty effects like diarrhea and fishy body odor. Overdoing Piracetam can cause headaches, tremors, insomnia and "brain fog", exactly opposite of what you're trying to achieve. Since piracetam doesn't have an immediate effect, some people start with a higher "attack dose" for a few days and ramp down later. Also, different racetams are either fat (lipid) or water soluble. Piracetam is water soluble and is best taken with a mostly empty stomach with a full glass of water. Aniracetam however, is not water soluble and is mostly useless without some sort of fat (food) taken with it.

I started taking two 800mg pills twice a day (total 3200mg a day), but have been ramping down to 1600 in the morning (8 am) and 800 after lunch (2 pm or so). Some people start with higher doses and others settle into 800mg or less twice a day. No matter what you do, I urge you to thoroughly research use of this drug for yourself before starting a regimen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracetam
http://www.erowid.org/smarts/piracetam/piracetam_faq.shtml
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=piracetam
and what google finds you....


Also, keep in mind the effect is not dramatic. I think some people get nothing out of racetams because honestly, they don't know how to or aren't used to critical thinking. The best way I can describe the change I've felt is not that I feel any smarter, but that my thoughts are more efficient or "easier".

Finally, approach other psychoactive substances with great caution while on piracetam. There's anecdotal evidence that while it protects the brain from the deleterious consequences of alcohol, it amplifies the effect. I can't speak to the first, but the latter, I definitely find true. I experienced the worse hangover I've had in at least 15 years the other weekend. Just thinking about it makes me cringe.

Phreon

[Bking]

Throw in some lithium orotate and the speed of life slows down.

[Bking]

Also, you can supplement an amino acid complex with all of these. Essential and non essential in a liquid form. A full spectrum b vitamin supplement.

[Deckard]

Just bought some piracetam online, and am wondering if I need to take choline or anything else, or if I can just trial the piracetam by itself?

I usually have one pretty strong coffee in the morning -- should I drop that while I'm using piracetam? What is the interaction like?

[stuck]

You could use lecithin instead of choline, but it's the least bioavailable choline source. Some people report headaches if they don't use a choline source. I'm fine without.

Piracetam and caffeine make me feel extremely lucid.

[Bking]

I dove into this about 6 months ago. After experimenting, I settled in on adrafinil.

I had a 14 hour REM rebound and I woke up feeling like I was waking up to go on a field trip in the 4th grade. Very nostalgic. It reset my circadian rhythm. So then, I threw in some aniracetam with an omega 3 supplement, and it completely changed the way I perceive and play music. Even when I'm not on it. I supplement an an amino acid liquid occationally, with choline bitartate in it already.
I think, that if your capable of very creative things, this kind of stuff can turn you into a hypomanic super producer of whatever you focus it on. But, if you never could paint, don't expect to pick up a brush and daub portrait of your inner abstract.
I have had add my whole life. So, brain drugs seem to change the way I perceive drastically.

[Robb]

Phreon, I read exactly what you just told me elsewhere after I posted. Thank you for your insight. I've been taking small doses of the soya lecithin for a few days now with no adverse effects, roughly 200mg per day. That too much? I haven't started the piracetam yet.

[Bking]

Also, remember to drink a sufficient amount of water. It's very important. And be careful to monitor your caffeine intake. And tea..

These drugs effect the renal system.

[stuck]

I usually have one pretty strong coffee in the morning -- should I drop that while I'm using piracetam? What is the interaction like?

I am doing this right now, just woke up to a hearty dose of piracetam, my morning coffee, a b-complex, ginseng, and a magnesium tablet to smooth it all out. It's kinda like I'm awake as fuck, but immersed in this world of extremely vivid and lucid perceptions (like I can see the constituent colors of shadows, and don't stumble when trying to spell the word constituent). It seems to take some of the edge off of the coffee somehow. We'll see what happens as the tablets kick in (I use a piracetam powder, which I feel right away).

[Bking]

Coffee can be intense in the afternoon. I drink a cup in the morning and it helps get me kicking. Too much sometimes can cause me to become manic. It's good to have a good interest in mind. Some sort of investigative personal research to do. Or a good video game. My brother and I blew through Portals co-op, like a champion. You create a beast, you better be ready to feed this thing.
When I smoke pot, musical notes scale in my mind like a vertical grey piano with no black keys.

[composer]

I'm surprised you guys are so into this. For comparison I tried pot ONCE, just so I could know what its like. I didn't want to mess with my brain that much. Otherwise I only drank alcohol infrequently and not at all for the last five years. I do drink tea daily but the effects of it have been extensively studied. Otherwise I'm an exercise and diet fanatic, which is really the only thing demonstrated to improve cognition (hard to concentrate with a load of fat in your veins and poor oxygen receptors due to no exercise and eating potato chips)

[Bking]

Well. The thing is, for me, I don't consider my natural state to be very balanced in the first place...Taking something, for me, is a mechanism of action that that may be of deficit in the first place, so using my knowledge to change my chemical makeup is very exciting for me. The effects answer a lot of chemical and physiological questions that I form for myself. By its effecticity, or, lack thereof.

Also, Im not taking care of anyone in my life. Not directly at least. If my well being was dependended on by, children, for example, I would think twice before popping in any kind of androgen agonist or cerebral vasolidator. You may just trigger something in you....

[stuck]

I'm surprised you guys are so into this.

I've always loved prying open my perceptions, since the first time I saw a picture drawn by a schizophrenic. I won't go as far to say "you're missing out," it really depends on the person and their natural level of inquisition. Certain things, I just know they're not gonna be useful. SSRIs, for instance, I'm never gonna use them unless I find myself in another decade-long depression. Alcohol is sometimes useful for writing. Piracetam is primetime for work and analytical thought.

The next natural question is "aren't you afraid of changing your brain and going nuts?" to which I'd say "I'm more afraid of sinking into the oblivion of lasting mediocrity." I'd rather go out in a blaze of human glory than ossify in comfort... unless of course those two things end up being the same. God knows that's what I'm shooting for.

[composer]

I've always loved prying open my perceptions, since the first time I saw a picture drawn by a schizophrenic. I won't go as far to say "you're missing out," it really depends on the person and their natural level of inquisition.

I guess my attitude is that if it already works well enough then don't mess with it. For the same reason I won't do laser eye surgery, despite two family members having it done and it being approved for military pilots now.

Partly is because I want to live long enough to when we (I hope) develop direct computing/neural interfaces, and/or direct mind uploading. If this happens near the end of my life I'll happily upload into the machine and experience life on a whole new dimension (literally) Until then I don't trust meatware enough to play with it.

[stuck]

Partly is because I want to live long enough to when we (I hope) develop direct computing/neural interfaces, and/or direct mind uploading. If this happens near the end of my life I'll happily upload into the machine and experience life on a whole new dimension (literally)

Exactly, you gamble for immortality your way, I'll do it my way.

Ironically enough to this discussion, one of the main demographics for piracetam is the life extension/immortality community. Piracetam is considered to be neuroprotective and might reverse some of the effects of aging in the brain.

[composer]

Exactly, you gamble for immortality your way, I'll do it my way.

A lot of the Transhumanist types are into this kind of stuff. My family was in the Pharmaceutical industry so I guess I have a natural distrust.

[Bking]

Ooo. Transhumanism... That is an interesting definition..

[Skinart]

I guess my attitude is that if it already works well enough then don't mess with it.
I understand this--I just don't think it works well enough. I'm looking for an OTC replacement for amphetamines to treat my ADD--for reasons I think are obvious.

[aelan]

question for those doing the choline + piracetam:

i see most report increased clarity, focus, taking in the world; someone said it has a calmative quality;

are you able to differentiate if the effects are due to improvement/ expansion of perception, or faster processing of the inputs (speeding up the analysis)?

I think i'd need something to slow down perceptions, and speed up analysis as such. usually my challenge is anxiety from seeing/having too much data in and feeling overwhelmed as such. it takes me till the am for the mind to return to some sort of whiteness, but usually, i just fall asleep overwhelmed with a mix of thoughts/emotions/colours.

[Deckard]

question for those doing the choline + piracetam:

i see most report increased clarity, focus, taking in the world; someone said it has a calmative quality;

are you able to differentiate if the effects are due to improvement/ expansion of perception, or faster processing of the inputs (speeding up the analysis)?

I think i'd need something to slow down perceptions, and speed up analysis as such. usually my challenge is anxiety from seeing/having too much data in and feeling overwhelmed as such. it takes me till the am for the mind to return to some sort of whiteness, but usually, i just fall asleep overwhelmed with a mix of thoughts/emotions/colours.
I doubt it has anxiolytic effects, but you might find it helps in other ways. What have you tried? SSRIs are usually the first line of treatment, combined with cognitive behavioural therapy.

[Skinart]

If you want a cheap OTC anxiolytic, you might consider phenibut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenibut). Sold in many of the same places as the racetams.

Comes with the cool catchphrase "Chillin' like a Cosmonaut, only half as high."(tm)

Cheap too.

[aelan]

I doubt it has anxiolytic effects, but you might find it helps in other ways. What have you tried? SSRIs are usually the first line of treatment, combined with cognitive behavioural therapy.

I've been using L-tryptophan with B6. It seems to work, though i'm unable to tell if it is just a placebo effect.

My difficulty was I did not want to impair the cognitive functions nor be sedated. I just wanted to calm it down or process the inputs faster, as such.

will have to read up on CBT. difficult to get access and i'm not certain i'd want to be in therapy either. it is entered into records here.

Edit: I've difficulty with sleep. falling asleep and waking up is difficult. am a very light sleeper as well.

[Deckard]

I've been using L-tryptophan with B6. It seems to work, though i'm unable to tell if it is just a placebo effect.

My difficulty was I did not want to impair the cognitive functions nor be sedated. I just wanted to calm it down or process the inputs faster, as such.
I've seen escitalopram/lexapro have very positive effects for 3 friends with anxiety -- it's an SSRI and widely prescribed here for anxiety. It doesn't seem to impair cognitive function or be sedating (based on trying it myself, and those 3 friends I mentioned). I guess you won't know unless you try it for yourself. Generally you have to give it ~2 months to get an SSRI's full effect, so if you do trial it, go at least for that long before making any decisions.


will have to read up on CBT. difficult to get access and i'm not certain i'd want to be in therapy either. it is entered into records here.
That's fucked that they keep that on record. Ideally you should do CBT with a therapist, but if there are negative consequences to that, I'm sure there are some self-directed stuff you can do online.


Edit: I've difficulty with sleep. falling asleep and waking up is difficult. am a very light sleeper as well.
Not uncommon at all, and you'd usually be prescribed a benzodiazepine for that. Works great for knocking you out at night. Often prescribed in conjunction with an SSRI for anxiety sufferers, for treating panic attacks when they come up.

[asperger]

I've been on Lexapro for years to treat depression.

[aelan]

^ how well does it work for you, and what side effects have you observed?

also are these prescription drugs... because if so, it'd be on record once i get it from a doctor.

[avolkiteshvara]

I've been using L-tryptophan with B6. It seems to work, though i'm unable to tell if it is just a placebo effect.

My difficulty was I did not want to impair the cognitive functions nor be sedated. I just wanted to calm it down or process the inputs faster, as such.

will have to read up on CBT. difficult to get access and i'm not certain i'd want to be in therapy either. it is entered into records here.

Edit: I've difficulty with sleep. falling asleep and waking up is difficult. am a very light sleeper as well.

Curcumin pills. It will mellow you out, lower cholesterol, and keep you regular. Can also add some to meals for taste.

Also do B-complex once or twice a week. Any less and I notice a deficit. Any more, and I don't really gain any benefit.

[asperger]

^ how well does it work for you, and what side effects have you observed?

also are these prescription drugs... because if so, it'd be on record once i get it from a doctor.


If that was aimed at me:

Yea, sorry, Lexapro is a prescription drug. It works well for me. Possibly reduced sex drive as a side effect. There were physiological factors evolving about the time I started to take it that have since made that irrelevant.

[stuck]

I've been using L-tryptophan with B6. It seems to work, though i'm unable to tell if it is just a placebo effect.

My difficulty was I did not want to impair the cognitive functions nor be sedated. I just wanted to calm it down or process the inputs faster, as such.

will have to read up on CBT. difficult to get access and i'm not certain i'd want to be in therapy either. it is entered into records here.

Edit: I've difficulty with sleep. falling asleep and waking up is difficult. am a very light sleeper as well.

magnesium! tryptophan is golden, but magnesium will help steady your nerves.

[Skinart]

I'm now imagining a bar. A man comes in, clearly shaken, he stumbles a bit as he gets to the bar and is helped to a stool by a concerned looking bearded man.

The shaken man, with exaggerated care, removes his hat and places it on the counter. At no time does his gaze move. As his hands lift off his hat, they can be seen to tremble. He politely coughs "Tryptophan."

The bartender indicates he can't make out what the man is saying.

"Magnesium!" orders the bearded man, then, to the shaken patron, "Tryptophan is golden, but magnesium will help steady your nerves."

A shot glass is set in front of the shaken man, who is now trembling slightly. A clear liquid is poured in from a bottle labeled 'Mg'.

[Anonymous]

^ how well does it work for you, and what side effects have you observed?

also are these prescription drugs... because if so, it'd be on record once i get it from a doctor.

I'm currently quitting Lexapro (you have to be very careful about quitting, I tried to go a bit too fast and ended up waking up after a morning of horrible dreams of torture and rape, and felt like I had a flu) due to the side effects (anorgasmia and drastically increased alcohol cravings). I really wouldn't advise SSRIs unless you seriously need them for depression or anxiety that is causing real, significant impairment in everyday life. I got it easy in terms of side effects, some experience a lot more, some less.

The good news is that they're getting better drugs. SSRIs are probably soon to be phased out by meds that work directly on BDNF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-derived_neurotrophic_factor), which has been implicated in the cause behind a whole host of nasty mental disorders. Serotonin only affects BDNF indirectly, but it's also responsible for a lot of other functions, which is why manipulating it can cause so many side effects.

[Polemarch]

I'm now imagining a bar. A man comes in, clearly shaken, he stumbles a bit as he gets to the bar and is helped to a stool by a concerned looking bearded man.

The shaken man, with exaggerated care, removes his hat and places it on the counter. At no time does his gaze move. As his hands lift off his hat, they can be seen to tremble. He politely coughs "Tryptophan."

The bartender indicates he can't make out what the man is saying.

"Magnesium!" orders the bearded man, then, to the shaken patron, "Tryptophan is golden, but magnesium will help steady your nerves."

A shot glass is set in front of the shaken man, who is now trembling slightly. A clear liquid is poured in from a bottle labeled 'Mg'.

I want to watch this movie now - develop it into a feature pls.


I'm currently quitting Lexapro (you have to be very careful about quitting, I tried to go a bit too fast and ended up waking up after a morning of horrible dreams of torture and rape, and felt like I had a flu) due to the side effects (anorgasmia and drastically increased alcohol cravings). I really wouldn't advise SSRIs unless you seriously need them for depression or anxiety that is causing real, significant impairment in everyday life. I got it easy in terms of side effects, some experience a lot more, some less.

The good news is that they're getting better drugs. SSRIs are probably soon to be phased out by meds that work directly on BDNF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-derived_neurotrophic_factor), which has been implicated in the cause behind a whole host of nasty mental disorders. Serotonin only affects BDNF indirectly, but it's also responsible for a lot of other functions, which is why manipulating it can cause so many side effects.

I'm taking Lexapro right now, and I would like to learn more about these new drugs that are being developed. Is there anything planned to hit the market soon - or are they 5 years out?

[Deckard]

also are these prescription drugs... because if so, it'd be on record once i get it from a doctor.
Just wondering, what impact does it have if it goes on record? Which record, and who sees it? Does it actually matter if a person is taking an SSRI?


I'm currently quitting Lexapro (you have to be very careful about quitting, I tried to go a bit too fast and ended up waking up after a morning of horrible dreams of torture and rape, and felt like I had a flu) due to the side effects (anorgasmia and drastically increased alcohol cravings). I really wouldn't advise SSRIs unless you seriously need them for depression or anxiety that is causing real, significant impairment in everyday life. I got it easy in terms of side effects, some experience a lot more, some less.
That sucks that you had those negative side effects, but it's generally not good advice to project your experience onto others who might experience little or no negative side-effects, and who might significantly benefit from the drug. I mean, it's good to say what youer experience was, but to say "I really wouldn't advise SSRIs unless you seriously need them" is a result of over-generalisation based on your anecdotal experience, and you might scare a lot of people off trying it who might have otherwise benefited. If there is no long-term negative from trying the drug and finding that it doesn't work for you, then perhaps the better advice is that they give it a try and find out for themselves. That advice should be based on statistical efficacy, and SSRIs *are* effective for a large percentage of anxiety/depression sufferers, and a large percentage experience few/no side effects.

[Anonymous]

I'm taking Lexapro right now, and I would like to learn more about these new drugs that are being developed. Is there anything planned to hit the market soon - or are they 5 years out?

The problem is that BDNF can't cross the blood-brain barrier, so they still haven't worked out how to administer it. But also, no, unfortunately they're still in the very early stages of trials, and it takes a lot of time and a lot of money to develop what would be an entirely new generation of antidepressant/anxiolytic.

However, what you might be seeing within the next 5 years or so is gene matching. In clinical trials, they've apparently be able to look at a person's genotype, and then figure out what SSRI will work best for them. People have different reactions and side effects to different SSRIs, so this would take the guesswork out of it.



Just wondering, what impact does it have if it goes on record? Which record, and who sees it? Does it actually matter if a person is taking an SSRI?


That sucks that you had those negative side effects, but it's generally not good advice to project your experience onto others who might experience little or no negative side-effects, and who might significantly benefit from the drug. I mean, it's good to say what youer experience was, but to say "I really wouldn't advise SSRIs unless you seriously need them" is a result of over-generalisation based on your anecdotal experience, and you might scare a lot of people off trying it who might have otherwise benefited. If there is no long-term negative from trying the drug and finding that it doesn't work for you, then perhaps the better advice is that they give it a try and find out for themselves. That advice should be based on statistical efficacy, and SSRIs *are* effective for a large percentage of anxiety/depression sufferers, and a large percentage experience few/no side effects.

Not really anecdotal... the side effects are pretty well known, and you're all but guaranteed to experience at least a few when starting up, although they may disappear over time. The severity may vary. For instance, one of my side effects was that my jaw tensed up, causing me to clench my teeth during night. That one wasn't a huge problem.

Plus, they work by enhancing BDNF, which in turn regrows synapses to restore you to function. If you don't have a disorder to begin with, taking SSRIs isn't really boosting, it's just restoring to baseline.

Edit: BTW aelan, I'm not sure how your insurance/medical system works where you are, but in the States, you'd have to get a diagnosis to get SSRIs, and the diagnosis would go on your permanent record, which would then be considered in the future whenever insurance companies are evaluating you. It's kind of the double-edged sword of treatment, at least here.

[Deckard]

Not really anecdotal... the side effects are pretty well known, and you're all but guaranteed to experience at least a few when starting up, although they may disappear over time. The severity may vary. For instance, one of my side effects was that my jaw tensed up, causing me to clench my teeth during night. That one wasn't a huge problem.
I meant that your overall experience and resulting conclusion about whether the drug is worth it -- for you -- is anecdotal. The side effects are well known, and they occur in varying degrees and sometimes not at all, and it's up to the individual to determine whether the side effects they experience make the drug worth it, for them. By saying, "really wouldn't advise SSRIs unless you seriously need them", you are potentially influencing someone not to try SSRIs, potentially doing them a huge disservice if the drug would have been beneficial to them.

[aelan]

thanks, asperger, stuck, avolkit, deckard. will look further into your suggestions. think immediate is to get the golden Mg *lol*... Skinart. =_=

anon, if it has to be a diagnosis before i could get it, i may not be able to go as far, unless i pay for it entirely on my own. my issue was that if my company pays for my medical, they have a right to access those records.

my personal insurance is already settled (score one for anal financial planning), so there'd not be issues of non-insurance there.

[Anonymous]

anon, if it has to be a diagnosis before i could get it, i may not be able to go as far, unless i pay for it entirely on my own. my issue was that if my company pays for my medical, they have a right to access those records.

my personal insurance is already settled (score one for anal financial planning), so there'd not be issues of non-insurance there.

Yeah, SSRIs don't actually have any function unless you have some sort of problem, but the good news is that they help with a LOT of problems - depression, anxiety, OCD, personality disorders, etc. The main thing to know is that they don't enhance functioning, they just restore it. If you think your difficulties concentrating go beyond the scope of normal human functioning though, it'd be worth looking into. :)

[Deckard]

So I've been on a regimen of piracetam (taken with a soy lecithin supplement for choline), creatine, high-DHA omega 3 & regular exercise for the last few months. It seems to be working well for me, although the effects are kind of subtle. There are few if any negative side-effects.

In terms of how much effect each of those things has, I estimate the piracetam is having a similar level of effect to the combination of creatine + exercise. I'm not really sure about the omega 3.

The good effects:
- Higher mental energy & stamina
- Far fewer "off" days
- I used to get uncontrollable urges to sleep in boring meetings/lectures. More than just being bored - I think it's an ADHD thing. Don't really have that problem anymore.

Side effects:
- Messes with my sleeping habits if I take the piracetam in afternoon/evening
- Crazy ass dreams

[stuck]

Remember to take breaks from the piracetam, so it doesn't raise your liver enzyme.

[Deckard]

Remember to take breaks from the piracetam, so it doesn't raise your liver enzyme.
I can't find much hard data about that. Most of what I'm reading says that it shouldn't affect liver enzyme levels.

[stuck]

I think the idea is that taking any 'drug' consistently bears that risk.