life after death

[SwirlingSugarSparkles]

Hello, I'm a new intp here. I'm sure this thread has been discussed many times. But this is a subject I've been wanting to ask a group of intps for a long time. So what do you all think happens (if anything) after we die?

:smooch:

[PenguinHunter]

According to Romero we come back to life and eat people's brains.

[cjs55]

That would be fun.

Remember what you were before birth? That's what you'll be after death.

[Claverhouse]

I believe we, and all creatures, go on to an afterlife in eternity.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[SensEye]

I think it is pretty much the end of the line.

[Serotonin]

I believe we, and all creatures, go on to an afterlife in eternity.



Claverhouse :ph34r:
Wow, what a concept! Can you..... elaborate? W,w, will the streets be, p, p, paved with gold. Will women willingly wilt into my arms? Will there be peace, harmony and love? I can't begin to fathom the riches! How do I ensure that I get to this place after my death? Will...., oh nevermind.

I believe my ashes will be exhumed from the crematorium and packaged into the pepper sachets found in the mess hall in the Wentworth building at Sydney University, nourishing the brain cells of future students for their..... commerce exams.

[Circe]

I believe we, and all creatures, go on to an afterlife in eternity.



Claverhouse :ph34r:
My beliefs are from the same stem, although I tend to believe that we and all creatures have had more than just this one present 'life' and therefore afterlives are a veil away.

Namaste

[Ka.avik]

Do you want to know what we think will happen after we die? Or, do you want to know what happens?

If the former, probably set up a poll, and buy some popcorn

if the latter, I'd profer that there are no formerly dead people here to offer their opinion. Thus, the only way to find out, is to die. As pearl jam sings in 'once' : Trade the fiction for fact. No trade-backs. So this is what it's like to grow up

but remember: if you're living like there's no God, you'd better be right!

[Nocturne]

I don't believe that there is life after death. After this, it's over.

[Claverhouse]

Wow, what a concept! Can you..... elaborate? W,w, will the streets be, p, p, paved with gold. Will women willingly wilt into my arms? Will there be peace, harmony and love? I can't begin to fathom the riches! How do I ensure that I get to this place after my death? Will...., oh nevermind.
You obviously didn't understand the question. All you have to do is die, and you'll be in the afterlife. I said absolutely nothing about where you will go or what it will be like.

If you don't believe in an afterlife it makes all your petitbourgeois moralising pretty worthless, doesn't it ? Look folks: Dr's Schweitzer & Mengele get exactly the same reward. Himmler, Lenin, Beria and Speer aren't going to receive even a slap on the hand. There is no God and no ( slave ) morality: one might as well devote yourself to the Cult of White Racial Supremacy or torturing kids to death like Gilles de Retz. Ethics are relative to the individual; and no-one and no organisation has any right to impose their belief-systems on another individual. And there's nothing to stop anyone and any organisation imposing their actions on any individual they choose...

One might as well choose evil, for there are no consequences.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Ka.avik]

There is no God and no ( slave ) morality: [...]

One might as well choose evil, for there are no consequences.
You logged in with the wrong password, Robespierre...http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/whistling.gif

[Google Monster]

Your born again into the exact same life. Well after many billions of years, if not more. But the time it takes to be born again is irrelevant. Time doesn't exist for bulks matter that don't have thought.

[SensEye]

If you don't believe in an afterlife it makes all your petitbourgeois moralising pretty worthless, doesn't it ? Look folks: Dr's Schweitzer & Mengele get exactly the same reward. Himmler, Lenin, Beria and Speer aren't going to receive even a slap on the hand. There is no God and no ( slave ) morality: one might as well devote yourself to the Cult of White Racial Supremacy or torturing kids to death like Gilles de Retz. Ethics are relative to the individual; and no-one and no organisation has any right to impose their belief-systems on another individual. And there's nothing to stop anyone and any organisation imposing their actions on any individual they choose...

One might as well choose evil, for there are no consequences.



Claverhouse :ph34r:This does a good job of explaining why Claverhouse chooses to hold the position there is an afterlife. However, the fact that Claver's sensibilities would be offended if there is no afterlife does not strike me as carrying strong scientific weight regarding the actual reality of the situation.

[Claverhouse]

Not at all, that is merely replying to one aspect of the whole, addressed by the fact that my interlocutor holds strong views on morality which are nullified without a pattern to existence.

As to the original question you will note it doesn't ask for reasoning, merely as to that which individual members believe happens after death.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[cwazyonyx]

i think we continue on in some form of energy and intelligence. we may or may not be aware of the life we just left here. but i believe for certain, we are not our body - it is only a tool, and when its usefulness has run out, we move on in whatever form.

[last_caress]

Empirically, consciousness is biological/physiological so I tend to believe that when it's over, it's over.
However I don't think theres enough information out there to come to a definitive conclusion on this issue.

[Star Cannon]

Me thinks on the same line as cwazyonyx 'cept me thinks that the body is just a hologram used for interacting in this 3rd dimension. We won't need it when we die.

[tragula]

When we die, our brains die, and our consciousness is over.

But who we are should not be confused with our ephemeral thoughts and feelings.

It is better to define our selves in terms of our earthly actions. And even the smallest things we do can sometimes have far reaching consequences down the line.

I think it is fair to describe this as an afterlife.

The world does not cease to exist just because we stop breathing. We may not be creating any new ripples. But the impact of our existence will still be felt daily by many people, stretching perhaps even into eternity. (Or at the very least a really really really long time.)

I suppose this is why some people choose to be movie stars, or novelists, or politicos. They want to make big waves, lured by the promise of immortality. Which, to agree with Claverhouse, is much better than living on in infamy.

But even humble people with short "undistinguished" lives will leave a permanent mark on the universe, whether they want to or not.

And just because our consciousness has always been terminated in the past, does not mean that there might not be a way to preserve it some day. In a very crude way books hold at least some of the thoughts and personality of their authors. And it may be possible someday to improve on that and download our consciousness into a computer.

Or a web forum?!? :shock:

[Serotonin]

One might as well choose evil, for there are no consequences.



Claverhouse :ph34r:
Well not posthumously IMO. But following what you said, then the implicit assumption from you is that there is a direct link between evil doings and those who truly do not believe in the afterlife.

Mohammed Atta and co.?????

[Claverhouse]

Well not posthumously IMO. But following what you said, then the implicit assumption from you is that there is a direct link between evil doings and those who truly do not believe in the afterlife.

Mohammed Atta and co.????? No: there being no afterlife or significance in any action does not commit you to evil --- which in any case would have no meaning --- it merely means that you are freed from any possible morality, so one thing is as good as another. 'Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law'.

In the case of religious people, such as your Islamic terrorists, there is a moral consequence. However since most religions teach they are the sole true path, it follows that in eliminating rivals or the enemies of their God, or gods, they are following their own moral code, and believe that this wins them merit. ( And to be fair, communist atheist teaching followed the same thinking as a secular religion: the enemies of communism were not only bad, but knew they were bad --- even Karl Marx went against his own teachings 'that they were inevitable ( eg: valueless ) processes of the dialectic' to affirm this. )

Some religions go further and actually dispense with morality in dealings with those who are not of the faith.

In the last century Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook wrote that "the difference between the Israelite soul... and the souls of all non-Jews, no matter what their level, is bigger and deeper than the difference between the human soul and the animal soul."

This was affirmed in 2004 when the authoritative rabbinic holy book, "Romemut Yisrael Ufarashat Hagalut" ("Jewish Superiority and the Question of Exile") was issued by Rabbi Sadya Grama of Lakewood, New Jersey.

'Grama is an alumnus of Beth Medrash Govoha, a prestigious Orthodox yeshiva (Talmud school). In his book-length decree, Rabbi Grama issued the following statement, "The Jew by his source and in his very essence is entirely good. The goy, by his source and in his very essence, is completely evil. This is not simply a matter of religious distinction, but rather of two completely different species."'

Since this applies to all goyim, not merely christian or muslim it explains a little of why the Palestinians ( some of whom are neither ) are treated as they are, after having their land taken. They are just animals, and in their very essence completely evil.



Completely Evil

Claverhouse :ph34r:

[last_caress]

'Grama is an alumnus of Beth Medrash Govoha, a prestigious Orthodox yeshiva (Talmud school). In his book-length decree, Rabbi Grama issued the following statement, "The Jew by his source and in his very essence is entirely good. The goy, by his source and in his very essence, is completely evil. This is not simply a matter of religious distinction, but rather of two completely different species."'

Since this applies to all goyim, not merely christian or muslim it explains a little of why the Palestinians ( some of whom are neither ) are treated as they are, after having their land taken. They are just animals, and in their very essence completely evil.


That type of ignorant shit is the reason I have so little respect for organized religion.

[waxwing]

"Wouldn't it be so wonderful
if everything were meaningless?
But everything is so meaningful
and most everything turns to shit.

Rejoice, rejoice, rejoice, rejoice."

-lyrics by Pedro the Lion (the band, not the forum member)

[Serotonin]

No: there being no afterlife or significance in any action does not commit you to evil --- which in any case would have no meaning --- it merely means that you are freed from any possible morality, so one thing is as good as another. 'Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law'.

Hm.
Do I assume you are of the opinion that earthly repercussions for evil are, and always will be, inadequate? Maybe the idea of posthumous stratification of souls is the only balm for wretched state of mind that comes from contemplating the lack of punishment that those who committed evil received on earth.
Does the collective horror induced by evil demand ultimate justice? Is there an equilibrium that must be balanced?
Just probing, for now....*tiptoe*

[Architectonic]

Claverhouse's afterlife involves a bunch of worms having a party.


but remember: if you're living like there's no God, you'd better be right!And if you've been living your life believing in a God, you'd better have chosen the right one.

[SheepDog]

Nobody knows what happens when we die.

[nonsequitur]

I think we become part of something larger. Not necessarily in the sense of losing our individuality, but we are ourselves, and something else at the same time. I was reading this book.. (yes, fiction) that proposed that when we die, it's like what happens during meditation. You are yourself, wholly, and yet, at the same time, feel part of something much larger. For e.g., when you meditate in front of a sea front, the waves, the sounds, the stones that you're sitting on - all become as one with you. I don't know about all of you, but this sounds pretty much like how I feel when I meditate. And I'd like to believe that it's how I feel after I die.

[Google Monster]

Yep, who knows. I've read a quote somewhere saying that with scientific reasoning you should believe in God. You believe in God and after death if God exist you get the rewards, if God doesn't exist then it doesn't matter. So why take the gamble?

[nonsequitur]

^ That would be Pascal's Wager. But I don't believe in doing things purely for self-benefit. If i'm going to believe in something, there should be a larger reason apart from the fact that it benefits me. There were quite a few arguments against the logic behind Pascal's Wager, most notably those by Voltaire..

[cjs55]

Pascal's Wager is so fucking terrible it just makes me mad.

Oh yeah, well there's a magical space unicorn who will send you to a life of torment for eternity if you don't spend the rest of your days drinking only coca-cola products. And you better do it, because if I'm right you'll be fucked and if I'm wrong you just had to spend some money on coca-cola.

Any time you make the punishment the worst possible thing there is (this supposed hell), you can pretty much put anything else as the premise and get away with it using pascal's "logic".

[Google Monster]

lol, I just quoted him, I don't believe in creation, so there is no need for a creator.

[cjs55]

Sorry, I just hate Pascal's Wager more than any other logical argument I've ever heard. Ever. When I see it cited or used the reaction is like a natural response that I can't control.

[Google Monster]

Life exist because we consume resources needed to keep us alive. We use as much energy as we consume (unless your overweight and still gaining). Humans have a mind to feed, which is also the source of our knowledge and our thinking. Our sense of pain, pleasure all from the physical. Just because our minds may separate us from our body doesn't mean that it is separate, this logical is what gets people thinking that humans are different from animals. We are all made of atoms! Our mind can not live without food and water we consume. So when our body is unable to continue using the resources because of physical damage, or just worn down and slowed down until your heart can pump no more, we will stop thinking, stop feeling.
Now my beliefs involve a big bang, big crunch, big bang etc... so there is no need for a beginning of time or creation. Which to me means after death we are just like the rest. Even though I am just like the rest right now. So no point in time is more special then the previous or the next. All is equal.

[Claverhouse]

Hm.
Do I assume you are of the opinion that earthly repercussions for evil are, and always will be, inadequate? Maybe the idea of posthumous stratification of souls is the only balm for wretched state of mind that comes from contemplating the lack of punishment that those who committed evil received on earth.
Does the collective horror induced by evil demand ultimate justice? Is there an equilibrium that must be balanced?
Just probing, for now....*tiptoe*

I should imagine that earthly repercussions both are --- since the wicked flourish like the green bay tree; and must be --- since humans are wholly incapable of truly judging another , inadequate. As the liberals always say about Hitler: 'You can't judge a man, until you have walked in his shoes'. Or they would say it if they applied logic to their beliefs.

But, since I have elsewhere pointed out that the concept of 'deserts', as in that someone deserves anything, good or bad, for effort or inaction or any reason. is alien to me: I am not greatly interested in punishment. Law must exist, and obviously often enough offenders against a law ( like thieves or murderers ) should pay a penalty, but if exacted it should be performed without self-righteousness and a 'I'm good and you're bad' mentality. The bases of moral action and consequence are more interesting for a discussion of an afterlife versus no afterlife.


Claverhouse's afterlife involves a bunch of worms having a party.
Since I'm of the belief that our souls go marching on, individually continuing forever, I'm not sure how you got this. Although it does apply also. Not in my case, though: I'm going to be swept up to heaven in a whirlwind.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Spartan26]

I believe for humans there's a heaven and hell. I know where I'm going; ya'll are on your own.

[PiccoloNamek]

I believe after death there is nothing, just like how it was before you were born.

I'm not really interested in life after death so much as I am interested in consciousness after death. I'd be perfectly happy preserving my conscious awareness in some sort of non-living state, sort of like Motoko from Ghost in the shell.

[Architectonic]

Sorry, I just hate Pascal's Wager more than any other logical argument I've ever heard. Ever. When I see it cited or used the reaction is like a natural response that I can't control.

'Pascal's wager' was just an intellectual exercise. Pascal was secretly an agnostic. ;)

[Miss Anthropic]

I believe after death there is nothing, just like how it was before you were born.

I'm not really interested in life after death so much as I am interested in consciousness after death. I'd be perfectly happy preserving my conscious awareness in some sort of non-living state, sort of like Motoko from Ghost in the shell.
How do you know you were nothing before you were born? Don't you think that if you were something and could remember it, it would mess up your current state of being? Especially if you have lived multiple times. It could get confusing!

[attila_the_hunny]

I think we are reincarnated. I think we have a choice whether we are or not, but knowing myself, I am definitely coming back.

[antireconciler]

since I have elsewhere pointed out that the concept of 'deserts', as in that someone deserves anything, good or bad, for effort or inaction or any reason. is alien to me: I am not greatly interested in punishment. Law must exist, and obviously often enough offenders against a law ( like thieves or murderers ) should pay a penalty, but if exacted it should be performed without self-righteousness and a 'I'm good and you're bad' mentality. The bases of moral action and consequence are more interesting for a discussion of an afterlife versus no afterlife.Claverhouse, if no one deserves anything, then there is no need to punish them for anything, like you say, but then there is no need to judge them at all, and then no need for law. If law, then judging. If judging, then punishment.

Also, if the consequences of your actions affect your afterlife, then they must be affecting you right now since now is when you are perceiving consequences.

[Claverhouse]

Claverhouse, if no one deserves anything, then there is no need to punish them for anything, like you say, but then there is no need to judge them at all, and then no need for law. If law, then judging. If judging, then punishment.

Also, if the consequences of your actions affect your afterlife, then they must be affecting you right now since now is when you are perceiving consequences.
There are differences between:

a/ the assumption that we as individuals can come to a proper result in assuming that a person ( including ourselves ) 'deserves' a certain condition good or bad., by their effort or actions.

b/ the running of society, which needs and demands the application of law. ( However I would still object to the automatic belief that a verdict or judgement reached by a court is just; or that anyone can assume moral superiority over the transgressor --- apart from 'There but for the Grace of God go I', what human can claim no failings ? If hopefully not as gross as many of those sentenced. )
I've no problem with a court hanging someone who throws boiling water on someone else.

c/ Eschatological concerns which deal with judgements delivered by non-human forces.

We cannot estimate deserts, but God can.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Lee]

Life after death will be much like life before conception.

[euterpenc]

If we were to have life after death, then there would necessarily be another death later. One cannot be born and not die. The only thing for this is a forever existing soul, that is here always and our body is merely a vessel. Reincarnation seems like one of the few possibilities, along with the Buddhist idea. The Christian idea is impossible by reason.

Watch ghost in the shell. It gives some good ideas on the nature of existence and afterlife.

How much of our existence is constituted by physical elements? We do not know for sure yet. Does our brain give us a soul? or is it something beyond the physical realm?

Life after death is irrlevant. When our physical body dies, so will who we are now, so we won't even recognize it if it is true. It is just one manner of reconciling death. Though I think death is something to look forward to.

[antireconciler]

There are differences between:

a/ the assumption that we as individuals can come to a proper result in assuming that a person ( including ourselves ) 'deserves' a certain condition good or bad.

b/ the running of society, which needs and demands the application of law. ( However I would still object to the automatic belief that a verdict or judgement reached by a court is just; or that anyone can assume moral superiority over the transgressor --- apart from 'There but for the Grace of God go I', what human can claim no failings ? If hopefully not as gross as many of those sentenced. I've no problem with a court hanging someone who throws boiling water on someone else.

c/ Eschatological concerns which deal with judgements delivered by non-human forces.

We cannot estimate deserts, but God can.I see. The concept of moral superiority is meaningless, and the application of law should simply keep society ordered. A sentence, then, really shouldn't be anything personal or retributive, but simply maintain consistency and public peace. Who are we to judge eachother as deserving anything? We should leave such matters to God.

... I think that's what you're saying. I tend to agree. I'll really have to consider the place of law more. I find it very interesting.

I find God without need or use of judgement although there are a set of laws we seem to inheret, and conflict will always arise in the minds of those who believe they can deviate from them. The only one really judging me is me. It's only because I judge me that I would judge others or believe others judge me, and that because I believe somehow that I am capable of being undivine and judgemental. I say this, but it has no actual meaning, except what I've chosen to give it, all because I am still undecided and believe I am capable of indecision and of believing things that are meaningless. :confused:

[PiccoloNamek]

One cannot be born and not die.

Why not? There are some rudimentery organisms that literally never die, I don't see why we can't one day achieve the same effect.

[Google Monster]

This one life is good enough for me.

[CoHo]

How do you know you were nothing before you were born? Don't you think that if you were something and could remember it, it would mess up your current state of being? Especially if you have lived multiple times. It could get confusing!
Wouldn't that be the same thing as ceasing to exist anyways?


Why not? There are some rudimentery organisms that literally never die, I don't see why we can't one day achieve the same effect.
Well in a macro sense EVERYTHING dies.

I mean, you could live for a few hundred billion years through the help of science but when all the stars burn out and all matter is converted to energy and the universe is sucked back into another big bang I doubt there would be any way to survive.

[euterpenc]

Why not? There are some rudimentery organisms that literally never die, I don't see why we can't one day achieve the same effect.

There cannot be a beginning and no end. Either you have both, or there is something without beginning or ending. Something with no start or end would be time, only other thing I know of would be God, if he/it exists.

[Crazy]

So what do you all think happens (if anything) after we die?

:smooch:Rigormortis and Decomposition. A viewing and a funeral sometimes as well.

[Zifmer]

The lump of fat and water in my head wont really work when I die, so that's really the end of Me. My soul can do whatever the fuck it wants, it's not like I'm my soul. For all I care it could overthrow God's Kingdom and shit on Satan from above.

[Google Monster]

Most, if not all of what was once us is now gone. Does this mean that our current life is different then the life we were when we were born? I think not, so how does our existence change after we die when the rest of who we are decomposes. A puddle that has dried up is considered a puddle no more. But when it rains again the puddle returns. Is it reborn? I guess what I'm trying to say is that life is just like the puddle but last a lot longer. So as long as there is food and water to consume and our body is able to put them to use we will have life. But in due time our system will change and slow down or be forced to stop or slow down at an earlier age by such things as diseases or bodily damage.

[Jacque]

So what do you all think happens (if anything) after we die?

Hopefully my life insurance gets paid out. :lol:

[nomir_dva]

Most, if not all of what was once us is now gone. Does this mean that our current life is different then the life we were when we were born? I think not, so how does our existence change after we die when the rest of who we are decomposes. A puddle that has dried up is considered a puddle no more. But when it rains again the puddle returns. Is it reborn? I guess what I'm trying to say is that life is just like the puddle but last a lot longer. So as long as there is food and water to consume and our body is able to put them to use we will have life. But in due time our system will change and slow down or be forced to stop or slow down at an earlier age by such things as diseases or bodily damage.

I realized once, walking home from school (it's a long walk and it gives me plenty of time to philosophize) that I am not the same human being that I was two years ago. If my past self met my current self, there would be much that we would not have in common. Then I went further and concluded that a permanent concept of 'self' cannot exist. My perception of reality changes constantly. I am not exactly the same person that I was when I woke up this morning. The only concistent thing is my consciousness, which simply perceives reality, while my self image is all the crap that's been pasted on top of the consicousness while analyzing those perceptions. My point is that in a certain sense, 'I' don't have a cointinuous existence at all. The person who was I three years ago no longer exists. The person who was I three minutes ago does not exist either. Our lives are made up of these imperceptable changes, and death is just a bit more abrupt. And that, I suppose is only differentiated from all the other moments by the death of the consciousness as well as the 'self.'

[afton]

Well the one thing that is sure is that what will happen
after death cannot be known scientifically.
It also have to do with your belief in the existence of human soul.
If you believe that "I" is just a byproduct of neuron firings in our
brain then after death, "you" simply disappear, as your brain
is decomposing.
But if you believe in the existence of the human soul then we can
consider the variety of religious beliefs, which also quite difficult
to be scientifically proven.

[illusivemind]

I'm amazed at how smart and intelligent people form strong religous and new-age beliefs about subjects where there is not nearly enough evidence to come to any certainity. Somehow faith solves all problems.

Yet these are clearly people who didn't fall for the Nigeria bank loan e-mail scam???? Go figure.

That goes for all you devout atheists too.

[cjs55]

I realized once, walking home from school (it's a long walk and it gives me plenty of time to philosophize) that I am not the same human being that I was two years ago.

Heh, interesting. I realized recently when walking home from school, that I have been the same person all of my life, after earlier realizing what you did.

I die every night. That's why I'm not particularly afraid of it.

[Bugeater]

I die every night. That's why I'm not particularly afraid of it.
That's a perfect way of putting it. :thumbup:

[cjs55]

Not to say that I have no ambition to live either. If I knew the next sleep I took would be my last I'd stay awake for a while. I'm much more predisposed to existing than non-existance, if you catch my drift. Just not scared of the latter, because I'm fairly certain of what it is (and the removal of I from the equation of the universe is a very soothing thought at times)

[afton]

Hello, I'm a new intp here. I'm sure this thread has been discussed many times. But this is a subject I've been wanting to ask a group of intps for a long time. So what do you all think happens (if anything) after we die?

:smooch:

That depends on what you believe :-)
And the sure answer is, we can't know for sure.

First you have to ask yourself, just like Mr. Descartes, do you believe
that a soul exist in you? Or "you" is just merely the sums of your neurons
in your brain?

Christians believe if someone believes in the salvation of Jesus Christ,
s/he will go to heaven. Some religions believe in reincarnation, based on
your karma. Atheists think that they'll just be a daffodil fertilizer.
Agnostics don't care.

[intper419]

"Life" and "death" are such bizarre ideas on their own, that having one after the other just seems to be like having "horse" before "pencil". If there is life after death, it will only be something else that makes no sense.

Only in life can we perceive death. In death we do not perceive life. Life, therefore, is a waste of good coffee.

[headfonez]

Life after death will be much like life before conception.
I agree.

[Wiki]

Is their death after life?

[headfonez]

Is their death after life?
*Looks at graveyard
I think so.

[Wiki]

How can you be sure unless you dig up some bodies?

[headfonez]

Because i work the graveyard shift. get it? graveyard shift?

[intper419]

Is the mind the same thing as the brain? I doubt it.

[Headspace]

This thread is dead and is not coming back to life - that i know for sure.

[intper419]

Fuck you headspace you are driving me insane with your non-INTP whining.