What's with the mediocrity?

[deus.ex.machina]

I thought when I came here I would find a plethora of computer engineers, mathematicians, philosopher’s, and highly motivated individual’s seeking truth. Instead I find a large group of people who are extremely bright, have polymath tendencies, but who refuse to take charge of their life and make their ideas reality (I am of course generalization off of the majority of posts I find here). Personally, I have notebooks filled with million dollar ideas, and I am guilty of passiveness as well. So our minds are constantly active, okay but what is the use of an active mind when it doesn’t produce any tangible products? What do we have to show for all these wonderful idea we come up with?

Here is my solution that has helped me immensely: Make goals and stick with them until they are completed. Don’t give up because you’ve found a better idea. For instance, I hate math more than any other subject and guess what? I am minoring in applied mathematics. I hate being on a diet, but I have been on a diet for the past several months and will continue until I reach my goal of 7% bf (which should be reached by late August). I hate practicing scales and most theory for music, but I suck it up and just practice anyways for at least 1 hour a day, then I spend the rest of my time jamming. The point is, making and keeping goals will allows us INTPs to learn how to make our ideas reality. We also need to learn how to capitalize on our strengths, instead of just tweaking our weaknesses.

We are natural system builders; so build dammit! Don’t just think about it, do it, and do it well. There is no reason for such an intelligent group of people to be so mediocre. Fuck being jacks of all trades when we can be masters of all trades if we work hard enough. I aim for excellence and perfection in everything I put my mind to. Our productive work is representative of our values. Do you really want to represent a value system filled with mediocrity? Fuck that – succeed; make goals, accomplish goals, and move on. We, as volitional beings, are designed for creativity and a rational control over our environment. Look at the archetypal INTP, the architect Howard Roark from Ayn Rand’s The Fountainhead. That could be anyone of us, with any one of our endeavors, yet most of us don’t have the balls needed to take the plunge from internal ideas to external products like Roark did. It’s your life; take control and succeed. What good is a dream when you have no desire to actually work for it?

[floyd]

what's the point of temporal greatness?

[meshou]

And who says we each aren't fulfilling our potential? Anyone could be great If They Just Did This One Thing. Maybe the fact that most of us don't makes those that do valuable.

Why should everyone be great? Why should everyone strive to be great if they're not naturally driven to it? Part of our value is what makes us different, including any presence or lack of drive.

People will do what they want and take care of themselves. If anyone changes as a result of your post, it would be an excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway, and the rest will remain shiftless. And there's absolutely nothing wrong wth that.

[deus.ex.machina]

what's the point of temporal greatness?


Internal happiness, knowledge that you made your ideas reality, leaving your values on the mainstream value system, imposing your beliefs and passions on the others, and other randomness.

[floyd]

and how does that benefit your buried decomposing body or strewn ashes?

[sasapurdue]

deux.ex.machina,
are you sure you aren't INTJ? Just kidding. Well, I guess your 'P' is only 11 % now that I look back at your post.
I ask myself these questions all the time. I have good ideas that never get implemented, I start things but never finish them. I guess I am just not a finisher. You know what part of it is for me....the realization that for me pondering the question is usually much more gratifying than finding the answer or the answer itself. I am not interested in end results, I guess is what I am saying. I am interested in the journey, not the destination. I don't really want to master things.
If that is mediocre by your standards then it's mediocre, but I guess mediocre is subjective.
Really the thing I am most concerned about it cultivating my humaness and growing as a human being. I am not that interested in having accomplishments in the "real" world.

[deus.ex.machina]

And who says we each aren't fulfilling our potential? Anyone could be great If They Just Did This One Thing. Maybe the fact that most of us don't makes those that do valuable.

Why should everyone be great? Why should everyone strive to be great if they're not naturally driven to it? Part of our value is what makes us different, including any presence or lack of drive.

People will do what they want and take care of themselves. If anyone changes as a result of your post, it would be an excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway, and the rest will remain shiftless. And there's absolutely nothing wrong wth that.

I wouldn't think it as a problem if I didn't see a vast body of post comming from depressed, lonely, and brilliant, pissed, and unmotivated underachievers. Go to any subcategories of this forum and you will find several posts from INTPs who are convinced they have wasted their lives. At least they don't seem to blame anyone else (but they do tend to blame being INTP I think), but the point is that if alot of us thing we are wasting our lives, complaining about lack of drive, and we feel chronically depressed about it, wouldn't there be a logical need to correct our depression? I've been in that position, and know what it's like, which is the only reason I have posted this thread.

I always wanted to be an excellent guitar player, bodybuilder, and cognitive scientist, although it took me years to get the balls up and actually pursue these dreams. I have been pursuing these (and other dreams of mine) for the past 4 years and loving it. It was hard at first, but I just want other INTPs to know that it is totally in the realm of our ability to do great things (which I know alot of want to), however, alot of the people here seem to make excuses because of personality type.

[garak]

We don't accomplish a lot of things because that's simply not what we desire most, nor what will bring us the most happiness. At least that's my own guess. Sure, suck it up and go through the mindless motions of implementing things just for the sake of "accomplishing something." See how you feel at the end. Do you really feel like it was worth it? There's only so many hours in a day, and you can only do so many things at a time. If you spend so much of your time doing things, when will you have time to learn, analyze, introspect, dream, etc.? I suspect that after a while you will feel like you have neglected your true self, regardless of how much you've "accomplished."

You might not be an INTP anyway, which is no surprise.

(this entire post is constructed of speculation and guesses)

[deus.ex.machina]

deux.ex.machina,
are you sure you aren't INTJ? Just kidding. Well, I guess your 'P' is only 11 % now that I look back at your post.
I ask myself these questions all the time. I have good ideas that never get implemented, I start things but never finish them. I guess I am just not a finisher. You know what part of it is for me....the realization that for me pondering the question is usually much more gratifying than finding the answer or the answer itself. I am not interested in end results, I guess is what I am saying. I am interested in the journey, not the destination. I don't really want to master things.
If that is mediocre by your standards then it's mediocre, but I guess mediocre is subjective.
Really the thing I am most concerned about it cultivating my humaness and growing as a human being. I am not that interested in having accomplishments in the "real" world.

Now since I think about it, mediocrity is the wrong word to be using. Yes, I think it is most definetely subjective - even though I am capable of rather great things most people probably consider me rather mediocre. The outside does not reflect the inside, for me at least, but I am trying my best to change that.

I enjoy the journey more than the end result, but tell me: Have you ever created, implemented, and completed a byproduct of your mind? Yes, I love the research process more than anything. I love how I can spend hour after hour studying a subject that captures my fascination, but I want to put it all together in an organized fasion. Yes, I have alot of projects that were left unfinished in reality but completed in my mind. Generally the only closure I need is that I know I could do something, rather than actually doing it. I generally have to force myself to complete a task.

[sasapurdue]

Now since I think about it, mediocrity is the wrong word to be using. Yes, I think it is most definetely subjective - even though I am capable of rather great things most people probably consider me rather mediocre. The outside does not reflect the inside, for me at least, but I am trying my best to change that.

I enjoy the journey more than the end result, but tell me: Have you ever created, implemented, and completed a byproduct of your mind? Yes, I love the research process more than anything. I love how I can spend hour after hour studying a subject that captures my fascination, but I want to put it all together in an organized fasion. Yes, I have alot of projects that were left unfinished in reality but completed in my mind. Generally the only closure I need is that I know I could do something, rather than actually doing it. I generally have to force myself to complete a task.
I would love to say that I had created, implemented, and completed a byproduct of my mind -- but just as something pure, not as something that is a means to some sort of end in the real world. Like for instance I would love to write a philosophical book or essay. More or less, as a documentation of who I am and what I believe in. But the problem is that I can't get my philosophical viewpoints straightened out, they are dynamic, and the biggest problem is that i have so much doubt!

[meshou]

I wouldn't think it as a problem if I didn't see a vast body of post comming from depressed, lonely, and brilliant, pissed, and unmotivated underachievers. Go to any subcategories of this forum and you will find several posts from INTPs who are convinced they have wasted their lives. At least they don't seem to blame anyone else (but they do tend to blame being INTP I think), but the point is that if alot of us thing we are wasting our lives, complaining about lack of drive, and we feel chronically depressed about it, wouldn't there be a logical need to correct our depression? I've been in that position, and know what it's like, which is the only reason I have posted this thread.

I always wanted to be an excellent guitar player, bodybuilder, and cognitive scientist, although it took me years to get the balls up and actually pursue these dreams. I have been pursuing these (and other dreams of mine) for the past 4 years and loving it. It was hard at first, but I just want other INTPs to know that it is totally in the realm of our ability to do great things (which I know alot of want to), however, alot of the people here seem to make excuses because of personality type.Look, your solution is the solution. It is mind numbingly easy. Yet these people do not, on average, take the most easy, obvious solution in the world. They whine about it on an internet forum.

People who whine tend to continue to whine. You can conclude, that since not solvin g the problem is harder than solving it, they must want to whine. They are doing exactly what they want until they decide they don't. And when they do, your advice will be obvious to them.

[sasapurdue]

If the solution to having a "great life" were very easy then a lot more people in the world would reach that point.
I think that the problem for many INTP's is that they don't define "greatness" or "accomplishment" in the same terms that most of society does.
They are pondering the philosophical questions of "what does it mean to me to have a great life" -- getting there is a step farther down the road.
They may be more interested in attaining some sort of philosophical self-actualization as a human being before they are interested in getting things done.

[deus.ex.machina]

If the solution to having a "great life" were very easy then a lot more people in the world would reach that point.
I think that the problem for many INTP's is that they don't define "greatness" or "accomplishment" in the same terms that most of society does.
They are pondering the philosophical questions of "what does it mean to me to have a great life" -- getting there is a step farther down the road.
They may be more interested in attaining some sort of philosophical self-actualization as a human being before they are interested in getting things done.

both parts fascinate me - the journey and the end. I also make things much harder than they need to be sometimes. I aim for self-actualization, however, for me it require following through with ideas, even if I have to force myself to do it. Trust me, my mind is constantly pondering such questions - I have just come to different conclusions about the meaning of me life (which is a subjective choice for each individual).

[sasapurdue]

both parts fascinate me - the journey and the end. I also make things much harder than they need to be sometimes. I aim for self-actualization, however, for me it require following through with ideas, even if I have to force myself to do it. Trust me, my mind is constantly pondering such questions - I have just come to different conclusions about the meaning of me life (which is a subjective choice for each individual).

I do think that unhealthiness for an INTP can mean being sort of frozen and incapable of making a decision or making a move because one is so filled with self-doubt. So its sounds like you are really healthy and know who you are; believe me I admire you for that! I think a lot of people on here who are depressed and down in the dumps are young also and probably don't know exactly where they stand in this life yet. Not that i am some old, wise eagle, I am only 24! So i guess i don't know what I am talking about anymore than anyone else. haha

[s0978]

...Here is my solution that has helped me immensely: Make goals and stick with them until they are completed. Don’t give up because you’ve found a better idea.
shut up, I hate you, get the fuck outta here, you J :rant:


just kidding. I think this is an interesting topic which we should never stop discussing here.

I only got familiar with MBTI about 6 months ago, and have to say that until I started thinking about P/J, I operated under a presumption that sheer determination/ focus/ will power approximated the only effective way to set and pursue goals. And I was an achievement junkie, and not able to feel very good about myself unless I were kicking ass at something. But researching and thinking up all this INTP stuff... I chilled out, and I decided that personally, respecting my natural preferences is actually more empowering.

Where is it...here it is: http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=2835

Yeah, I really never thought I would be able to quit smoking, or work out consistently, other stuff. But sort of working with my preferences has really enabled this paradigm shift, through which I think I'm more effective in certain ways and also just a happier camper.

And now I am working on harnessing my Ni, and when I do, I will be the most powerful person in the entire world and take over the universe. :)

[sasapurdue]

s0523,
when you rule the universe please hook all of your fellow INTP's up with cool jobs where we do something interesting and are underworked and overpaid. Just a request.

[coffeezombie]

I have lots of ideas and things I enjoy doing too, but I think it's boring to just focus on one thing to the exclusion of everything else. I like jumping from interest to interest. Hence, nothing ever gets done. It's not that INTPs are lazy or lack conviction, it's just that we have too many interests most of the time.

[sasapurdue]

I have lots of ideas and things I enjoy doing too, but I think it's boring to just focus on one thing to the exclusion of everything else. I like jumping from interest to interest. Hence, nothing ever gets done. It's not that INTPs are lazy or lack conviction, it's just that we have too many interests most of the time.

this makes sense also.
Your explanation was much more succinct than mine. :)

[2hype]

s0523,
when you rule the universe please hook all of your fellow INTP's up with cool jobs where we do something interesting and are underworked and overpaid. Just a request.

lol. That's exactly what I was thinking!

[coffeezombie]

this makes sense also.
Your explanation was much more succinct than mine. :)

Well, I can't usually be bothered to read all the posts in a thread. lol I am an INTP, after all, so I get a bit bored with reading everything once I get the general idea of a thread. So if I repeated a point you made, I didn't intend to. I've done that to a lot of people on here.

[sasapurdue]

Well, I can't usually be bothered to read all the posts in a thread. lol I am an INTP, after all, so I get a bit bored with reading everything once I get the general idea of a thread. So if I repeated a point you made, I didn't intend to. I've done that to a lot of people on here.

oh no not at all! :) I actually felt kind of embarrassed because i went into this big philosophical explanation and you gave a very logical, very succinct explanation!

[last_caress]

Internal happiness, knowledge that you made your ideas reality, leaving your values on the mainstream value system, imposing your beliefs and passions on the others, and other randomness.


How do you know that your values are better than the "mainstream" value system?
Why would I want to impose my beliefs and passions on others if I'm not sure that that's what is best for anyone?
Do you not feel any responsibility to the subject(s) of your imposition subsequently?


Have you ever walked in the sand near the surf?
Your footprints don't last long do they?

[sbw]

I thought when I came here I would find a plethora of computer engineers, mathematicians, philosopher’s, and highly motivated individual’s seeking truth. Instead I find a large group of people who are extremely bright, have polymath tendencies, but who refuse to take charge of their life and make their ideas reality (I am of course generalization off of the majority of posts I find here). Personally, I have notebooks filled with million dollar ideas, and I am guilty of passiveness as well. So our minds are constantly active, okay but what is the use of an active mind when it doesn’t produce any tangible products? What do we have to show for all these wonderful idea we come up with?

Here is my solution that has helped me immensely: Make goals and stick with them until they are completed. Don’t give up because you’ve found a better idea. For instance, I hate math more than any other subject and guess what? I am minoring in applied mathematics. I hate being on a diet, but I have been on a diet for the past several months and will continue until I reach my goal of 7% bf (which should be reached by late August). I hate practicing scales and most theory for music, but I suck it up and just practice anyways for at least 1 hour a day, then I spend the rest of my time jamming. The point is, making and keeping goals will allows us INTPs to learn how to make our ideas reality. We also need to learn how to capitalize on our strengths, instead of just tweaking our weaknesses.

We are natural system builders; so build dammit! Don’t just think about it, do it, and do it well. There is no reason for such an intelligent group of people to be so mediocre. Fuck being jacks of all trades when we can be masters of all trades if we work hard enough. I aim for excellence and perfection in everything I put my mind to. Our productive work is representative of our values. Do you really want to represent a value system filled with mediocrity? Fuck that – succeed; make goals, accomplish goals, and move on. We, as volitional beings, are designed for creativity and a rational control over our environment. Look at the archetypal INTP, the architect Howard Roark from Ayn Rand’s The Fountainhead. That could be anyone of us, with any one of our endeavors, yet most of us don’t have the balls needed to take the plunge from internal ideas to external products like Roark did. It’s your life; take control and succeed. What good is a dream when you have no desire to actually work for it?

it's probably been discussed in another thread, but what makes roark an INTP rather than an INTJ? (both times I read the fountainhead were before I happened upon this site; I've never thought about it, but I guess I would assume that an INTJ like rand would make her most heroic character in her own likeness)

you make an excellent point, deus; just remember that many of the jobs and situations that you describe at the top ARE represented here. and perhaps more importantly, since the internet (and most of the entertainment and "edutainment" resources which abound on the internet) are primarily the province of young people. as such, many of our members seem to be students (high-school, college, grad school) that will likely fill such jobs later in life.

oh, and I'm retiring next month.

Scott

[kuranes]

I don't mind a little of this sort of inspirational talk, from time to time. Notice how much more positive it is in distinction to Hustler's approach.

I also imagine that there would be less contemplation, and more DOING if there was an infrastructure to immediately plug into. Unfortunately that boring dues-paying part has to be done first. A lot of us INTP's skip to contemplating the upper levels of "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs" before satisfying the foundation of the pyramid. If the foundations are already there, then we would be DOING vs. contemplating. More so, anyway. Your post exhorts us to take care of this first step, which is correct, and I will think of you and your personal success occasionally - to jar myself out of procrastination. Thanks for the nudge. Don't make a habit/broken record of it, though.

[ApeTheDog]

Implementing your ideas would be something you do for other people. To show them how smart you are, and how good you are. Why bother if you can just live like The Dude in the big lebowski and have fun?

[Nighthawk]

I thought when I came here I would find a plethora of computer engineers, mathematicians, philosopher’s, and highly motivated individual’s seeking truth. Instead I find a large group of people who are extremely bright, have polymath tendencies, but who refuse to take charge of their life and make their ideas reality (I am of course generalization off of the majority of posts I find here). Personally, I have notebooks filled with million dollar ideas, and I am guilty of passiveness as well. So our minds are constantly active, okay but what is the use of an active mind when it doesn’t produce any tangible products? What do we have to show for all these wonderful idea we come up with?
I accomplished a lot during my 20's and 30's. Set a lot of high goals that I achieved. Now I tend to skate along ... mostly because I've become bogged down with all the repetitive SJ tasks of life. They tend to accumulate as you get older. Tracking finances, maintaining a home/cars/yard/pool, caring for kids (even adult kids), fixing breakfast/lunch/dinner, cleaning up, repairs, paying bills, sorting through tons of mail ... The list goes on and on, yet takes up a significant portion of each day. SJ's might love that kind of stuff, but it totally robs me of my ambition.

I do find, however, that setting goals and sticking to them, as you mentioned, does help. I still work out regularly and stick to a diet that keeps my weight where I want it. I publish articles somewhat regularly and try to keep learning new technology. I really want to pursue a PhD, but I've become addicted to the money and easy lifestyle of my job and am not sure I want to take a pay cut.

[deus.ex.machina]

How do you know that your values are better than the "mainstream" value system?
Why would I want to impose my beliefs and passions on others if I'm not sure that that's what is best for anyone?
Do you not feel any responsibility to the subject(s) of your imposition subsequently?


Have you ever walked in the sand near the surf?
Your footprints don't last long do they?


I never said my values were "better" than anyone elses in a universal sense; only in my sense of the word. When you create a great work of art that becomes identifiable by mainstream culture you are imposing your values on society. They didn't ask for your intepretation of the metaphysical, you pushed it on them and they accepted it. When you discover a new law of physics, you are imposing the product of your thought on society (if you choose to publish or make the knowledge conceptually avialable to other people, which unfortunately many INTPs won't do).

I identify that my actions have consequences, both positive and negative. Any action that has social consequences creates the possibility of social dysfunction, however, the risk (to me) is worth the reward of increased knowledge about the universe, and another view point on the nature of certain metaphysical truths (or at least the subjective intepretation of the metaphysical i.e. artwork).

I don't understand your metaphor. Please elaborate.

[Maniac]

and how does that benefit your buried decomposing body or strewn ashes?

How does not doing anything benefit your buried decomposing body or strewn ashes? If you get a sense of meaning from doing nothing, more power to ya.

Too many people here took this question to an existential point of view. To quote Nike, "Just do it".

[MacGuffin]

I don't mind a little of this sort of inspirational talk, from time to time. Notice how much more positive it is in distinction to Hustler's approach.It's like Hustler went out and bought some Fe.

[deus.ex.machina]

How does not doing anything benefit your buried decomposing body or strewn ashes? If you get a sense of meaning from doing nothing, more power to ya.

Too many people here took this question to an existential point of view. To quote Nike, "Just do it".


Amen! Do what you want and accept the consequences of your actions. Luckily for us, I think most of the people here are willing to accept the consequences of their behavior and direct the blame in the right place when they fail.

[sasapurdue]

"Just think about it" would be a more appropriate INTP motto.

[Maniac]

"Just think about it" would be a more appropriate INTP motto.

LOL! True dat, true dat. Once we understand something in our heads, no point doing it in real life. Sigh, sometimes I hate that part. Why? Because in the end you have nothing to show for your efforts. Just a bunch of "I could've's".

[sasapurdue]

I know! I always tell people that I am not even half as alive in the "real" world as I am in my mind. But the mind is a much more interesting and LIMITLESS place!

[sbw]

It's like Hustler went out and bought some Fe.

more likely stole it.

Scott

[deus.ex.machina]

Implementing your ideas would be something you do for other people. To show them how smart you are, and how good you are. Why bother if you can just live like The Dude in the big lebowski and have fun?


Because, if I implement my ideas I can get paid doing what I love doing. Also, what I love doing involves a large amount of financial resources. I need to create the financial backing to support my lifestyle of solidarity and research, and to do that I need to make my ideas reality.

[deus.ex.machina]

I know! I always tell people that I am not even half as alive in the "real" world as I am in my mind. But the mind is a much more interesting and LIMITLESS place!

very true!

[Xander]

I would have to think that anyone who would get so riled at others for their lack of drive is really angry at themselves for not being like some one else?
I work with those with drive and those without. There are strengths and weaknesses to each approach.
I, as I am sure many of you find, are capable of doing things that many others seem incapable of or just find astounding that I can do. That is what I find drives me. I finish jobs but manly for others. My brain desires a plethora of experiences and subject matter, which incidentaly is why I'm here. Perhaps you should be asking the question "Why if I have all of these abilities do I find myself feeling mediocre?"

[ApeTheDog]

Because, if I implement my ideas I can get paid doing what I love doing. Also, what I love doing involves a large amount of financial resources. I need to create the financial backing to support my lifestyle of solidarity and research, and to do that I need to make my ideas reality.

You only need money if you want to implement your ideas. If you just want to have them, you don't need anything other than a brain and time.

[deus.ex.machina]

I would have to think that anyone who would get so riled at others for their lack of drive is really angry at themselves for not being like some one else?
I work with those with drive and those without. There are strengths and weaknesses to each approach.
I, as I am sure many of you find, are capable of doing things that many others seem incapable of or just find astounding that I can do. That is what I find drives me. I finish jobs but manly for others. My brain desires a plethora of experiences and subject matter, which incidentaly is why I'm here. Perhaps you should be asking the question "Why if I have all of these abilities do I find myself feeling mediocre?"


I thought about it, but this is wrong. I have more drive than any person I know, and I spend every waking moment working towards my goals. In fact, if I ever find myself being unproductive I get anxiety attacks, or I get extremely depressed.

Perhaps you should reread my posts; this thread is directed at those who complain about being depressed all the time, and never accomplishing anything. I felt I could offer some advice to people who are in places I have been. Personally, I think it would have made a difference in my life if I had someone to talk to, or met someone similiar to me who has gotten themselves out of an extreme rut (depression, anxiety, and all the other fun stuff that people tend to get when they feel like they are worthless).

Don't confuse a helping hand as the projection of one's inability to act.

[deus.ex.machina]

You only need money if you want to implement your ideas. If you just want to have them, you don't need anything other than a brain and time.


True true; I just find it hard to have good ideas when I don't have time to think (i.e. like when I am spending 40 hours a week working at a brainless zombie factory). I like the idea of creating financial freedom so I can build an isolated compound in the mountains somewhere and have a very large laboratory, gym, library, and studio to spend all my time working on my ideas using every tool I could possible have available.

-Jiah the Great :whistle:

[jimore]

Look at the archetypal INTP, the architect Howard Roark from Ayn Rand’s The Fountainhead. That could be anyone of us, with any one of our endeavors, yet most of us don’t have the balls needed to take the plunge from internal ideas to external products like Roark did. It’s your life; take control and succeed. What good is a dream when you have no desire to actually work for it?

Nonsense. The only "archetypal INTP" characteristic Roark had was the title architect.
As to Ayn Rands philosophy... don't worry. If you honestly cultivate your INTP aspects you will outgrow her. I am INTP. I am old. I am happy. I am content.

[jimore]

.
Really the thing I am most concerned about it cultivating my humaness and growing as a human being. I am not that interested in having accomplishments in the "real" world.

Are you quite certain that I have not already died and you are my reincarnation? You rock.

[deus.ex.machina]

Nonsense. The only "archetypal INTP" characteristic Roark had was the title architect.
As to Ayn Rands philosophy... don't worry. If you honestly cultivate your INTP aspects you will outgrow her. I am INTP. I am old. I am happy. I am content.

Yeah, I've been thinking about it the past couple of days, and Roark must be a very strong INTJ actually. He has very clear cut and never changing goals throughout his life. There are alot of good quotes in the book that would suggest INTPness, I think, however I am thinking INTJ is a much better descriptor. So you are right.

Ayn Rand's philosophy can generally be intepretated as (I think), "If you are not an INTJ like me you will have a horrible, unhappy, and dillusioned life." It's interesting actually, over at the Objectivist forums they have a thread for MBTI results of the members there and nearly everyone (and all the very convicted posters) are INTJs. I don't think INTPs have the characteristic Judging traits to live as Objectivists (I certainately didn't, and I really didn't like the Objectivist "fact" that Rand was 100% correct). If she was right about everything, especially her ethical foundation, she wouldn't have been the bitter woman all of her dissidents describe her as (i.e. Nathanial Brandon). It's wierd, alot of philosopher's I have read have had great ideas on how to lead happy and fulfilling lifes, but ultimately they failed to practice what they preached (which I seems like a general INTP trait as well); Nietzsche being a prime example.

[kwis]

Man, whenever someone asks me why I dont try, I get the urge to go on a rant about the meaninglessness of life and material accomplishments and how they are not special but I feel like I will just end up discouraging others. I think its a attitude thing. Ive typed out a reply to this thread about 5 or 6 times and always end up changing my mind so I will just post this.

[deus.ex.machina]

Man, whenever someone asks me why I dont try, I get the urge to go on a rant about the meaninglessness of life and material accomplishments and how they are not special but I feel like I will just end up discouraging others. I think its a attitude thing. Ive typed out a reply to this thread about 5 or 6 times and always end up changing my mind so I will just post this.

haha I've changed my mind a couple times throughout this thread as well. I suppose it's a personal decision, but I have a hard time arguing the inherent meaningless to life. It just logically follows that life has no inherent meaning (if it does, we obviously haven't found it scientifically yet.
So perhaps it does have a meaning, yet we don't currently know it). I think we all give meaning to our own lives, and that seems rather inescapable; rather you choose preisthood, live the ascetic life, become and objectivist, or just become a 9-5er - it's everyone's individual choice to create a meaning in their life.

Material accomplishments don't mean shit when my body is rotting, but I do get the greatest joy in discovery, and creation. So I have decided to pursue my interests as far as I possibaly can. I suppose we can recognize the meaningless of life and just leave it at that, or we can escape it.

[Xander]

To Deus Ex Machina.
Well you seem to be a motivated and goal orientated kinda person!
Apologies for my previous post I misinterpreted your designs on the use of the word mediocre. I thought it was a stab at others not the cunning ploy to rile people into action.
I think that perhaps you would be happier though concentrating less on the money and more on the quality of life your getting. There's little point being a millionaire just before one hundred and sixty five if you die at one hundred and sixty six. Perhaps this is just my philosophy but if you don't live in part for today then your wasting time and that is something rarer and more precious than any amount of money. It took loosing my mother to cancer to realise this. I still smoke but I swear that if I die without having done what I set out to do, in terms of dreams, then its my own fault and cannot be put down to any other excuse.
Though I don't fully understand your operating system signature I'd guess that your more of a decisive and active person than I and possible more prone to extroversion.
But anyway thank you for not biting my head off, I'm used to that response. Its nice to find people who can keep a conversation, even a personal one, out of the playground. My perception has been adjusted and I won't make the same mistake about you again.
Though my spelling shall remain erratic!

[deus.ex.machina]

To Deus Ex Machina.
Well you seem to be a motivated and goal orientated kinda person!
Apologies for my previous post I misinterpreted your designs on the use of the word mediocre. I thought it was a stab at others not the cunning ploy to rile people into action.

Thanks! Although I will be the first to admit that I can have a very hard time following through with goals. I generally do follow them through, but I really have to force myself to sometimes. It's definetely not within my nature to keep on track with goals, since I generally find a "better" idea to pursue before I complete a goal. I have found that keeping a few long term goals is very helpful in learning how to structure, organize, and follow through with short term goals. Bodybuilding (which is composed of diet and training), growing as a musician, and obtaining a PhD in cognitive science are three goals I have been working on for several years.


I think that perhaps you would be happier though concentrating less on the money and more on the quality of life your getting. There's little point being a millionaire just before one hundred and sixty five if you die at one hundred and sixty six. Perhaps this is just my philosophy but if you don't live in part for today then your wasting time and that is something rarer and more precious than any amount of money.

That's what aesthetics are there for bro! I live every day to what I consider the fullest, and I am pursuing a career that probably won't make me rich (cognitive scientist/musician), but I am enjoying the hell out of the ride. It's hard sometimes, but I never have to convince myself that my passions will always come first. They never change anymore; although I may develop other passions along the way studying the mind and making music are the productive activities that riegn on the top of my hierarchy of values.



It took loosing my mother to cancer to realise this. I still smoke but I swear that if I die without having done what I set out to do, in terms of dreams, then its my own fault and cannot be put down to any other excuse.

My grandmother dying while I was in sitting in jail as a failure in life made me realize quite alot about myself, and incidently it contributed a great part to me getting back to school, quitting drugs and smoking (she died of cancer as well and was a mother figure to me. I used to steal from her, and I treated her like shit. I feel I drove her to the grave with the amount of stress I inflicted on her, being that she watched me turn from her favorite family member into a piece of shit), and returning back to a life of passion and productivity.



Though I don't fully understand your operating system signature I'd guess that your more of a decisive and active person than I and possible more prone to extroversion.

I'm really not a decisive, or extroverted person (although I think my level of action makes up for it). Extroversion is my weakest link, and I am trying to develop a solid and rational plan for manipulating my personality traits in such a way that I can become an excellent public speaker (at least in appearance). I still get panic attacks when I speak in public, and almost got a letter grade dropped last semester for not doing an oral presentation (luckily the teacher like my writing enough to break his rule and give me an A anyhow). I can't even go to parties or clubs without being drunk, and since I don't drink I don't even go out anymore. Extraversion is not natural to me, but I know that I will continue to work as hard as possible in being more extraverted, since it is a useful skill for my goals (especially being a solo musician!).



But anyway thank you for not biting my head off, I'm used to that response. Its nice to find people who can keep a conversation, even a personal one, out of the playground. My perception has been adjusted and I won't make the same mistake about you again.
Though my spelling shall remain erratic!

I'm easily misunderstood so it's all gravy bro. Haha yeah it's very hard to get a personal attack out of me nowadays.

[sasapurdue]

Are you quite certain that I have not already died and you are my reincarnation? You rock.

lol. Stranger things have happened! Or maybe our souls are twins.

[Star Cannon]

Hmm... go you! *cheers*

[Hustler]

I thought when I came here I would find a plethora of computer engineers, mathematicians, philosopher’s, and highly motivated individual’s seeking truth. Instead I find a large group of people who are extremely bright, have polymath tendencies, but who refuse to take charge of their life and make their ideas reality (I am of course generalization off of the majority of posts I find here). Personally, I have notebooks filled with million dollar ideas, and I am guilty of passiveness as well. So our minds are constantly active, okay but what is the use of an active mind when it doesn’t produce any tangible products? What do we have to show for all these wonderful idea we come up with?

Fear and laziness are to blame, along with insecurity. I agree with some of general thrust of your argument, but I am here to tell you that the bulk of the INTPs around here would much rather rationalize excuses for inaction than dare to take action and implement their ideas.

[last_caress]

Fear and laziness are to blame, along with insecurity. I agree with some of general thrust of your argument, but I am here to tell you that the bulk of the INTPs around here would much rather rationalize excuses for inaction than dare to take action and implement their ideas.

Don't forget defiance.
Rejection of societies expectations could be another reason; ie action and success.

[CoHo]

Aren't you the one getting married to someone you can't even communicate with?


Let's play a word game!

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[kuranes]

I get "pot calling the kettle black" but beyond that . . . ? I think he's just saying that the reason for INTP inaction doesn't have to be just sheer laziness. Standin' up to that mean old Hustler guy. My man! Heh heh.

[last_caress]

I get "pot calling the kettle black" but beyond that . . . ? I think he's just saying that the reason for INTP inaction doesn't have to be just sheer laziness. Standin' up to that mean old Hustler guy. My man! Heh heh.

I don't think the kettle post was intended for me.
If it was, they've got me confused with someone else as I have never posted about getting married nor am I getting married.
I'm assuming it was directed at Hustler.

[kuranes]

I never read the post about Hustler's hassle with the wife. Will have to LOOK for that one. Hustler, have you and the old lady been at it AGAIN?

*scene - large living room with no overhead lights or lamps turned on. Hustler sits in a big overstuffed leather chair at one end. His wife sits at the other end of the room on a couch. *

Hustler - ( Gets up from chair and crosses room to small bar. Takes the fancy stopper out of a cut crystal decanter of liquor and pours himself a glass, Quentin Collins style. Sips at it a bit. Stares daggers at the wife. She avoids confronting his gaze and looks down at her lap. )

"Well, it's come to THIS . . " he says.

*He waits for her response but she is silent. Just as he starts to say something more, she begins to tentatively reply. Then falters, sensing she is interrupting him . . *

"But I thought . . ." she says.

"You DON'T think! That's always been the problem . . ." *Hustler sips more of drink. Puts it down and finds CD for player with agitated motions, indicating his inner fury. Loud opera music begins to come out of the hidden speakers*

*wife gets up from chair and runs from room up the stairs*

"That's right! Run up there to your room and shut the door! Like an ostrich with its head in the sand! Pretend it will all go away if you just close your eyes! And furthermore . . . ." * Stops talking. His expression shows that he realizes that he is now just talking to himself. What to do now? Notices glass he is holding in his hand. Slams glass of booze down with a look of disgust on his face. He's become quickly tired of it.

"Perhaps I'll check out what's happening at INTP Central" he mutters.

Suggested casting for Hustler - Anthony Zerbe

[CoHo]

I was talking to the initial poster

Arbies is open late, so you can eat great, even late!

[abathur]

I'm thinking along the lines of... suck it up a few times on some of your absolutely fanstastically stupendously best ideas... then start hiring people to get shit done for you so you can get back to thinking about it all.

I think that might be my dream, my heaven... being able to spend my time thinking and having the people around me to make my ideas reality.

Perhaps I'll never reach it, but I'm a bit too idealistic to give up on that possibility yet ;)

[Helios]

I thought when I came here I would find a plethora of computer engineers, mathematicians, philosopher’s, and highly motivated individual’s seeking truth. Instead I find a large group of people who are extremely bright, have polymath tendencies, but who refuse to take charge of their life and make their ideas reality (I am of course generalization off of the majority of posts I find here). Personally, I have notebooks filled with million dollar ideas, and I am guilty of passiveness as well. So our minds are constantly active, okay but what is the use of an active mind when it doesn’t produce any tangible products? What do we have to show for all these wonderful idea we come up with?

Here is my solution that has helped me immensely: Make goals and stick with them until they are completed. Don’t give up because you’ve found a better idea. For instance, I hate math more than any other subject and guess what? I am minoring in applied mathematics. I hate being on a diet, but I have been on a diet for the past several months and will continue until I reach my goal of 7% bf (which should be reached by late August). I hate practicing scales and most theory for music, but I suck it up and just practice anyways for at least 1 hour a day, then I spend the rest of my time jamming. The point is, making and keeping goals will allows us INTPs to learn how to make our ideas reality. We also need to learn how to capitalize on our strengths, instead of just tweaking our weaknesses.

We are natural system builders; so build dammit! Don’t just think about it, do it, and do it well. There is no reason for such an intelligent group of people to be so mediocre. Fuck being jacks of all trades when we can be masters of all trades if we work hard enough. I aim for excellence and perfection in everything I put my mind to. Our productive work is representative of our values. Do you really want to represent a value system filled with mediocrity? Fuck that – succeed; make goals, accomplish goals, and move on. We, as volitional beings, are designed for creativity and a rational control over our environment. Look at the archetypal INTP, the architect Howard Roark from Ayn Rand’s The Fountainhead. That could be anyone of us, with any one of our endeavors, yet most of us don’t have the balls needed to take the plunge from internal ideas to external products like Roark did. It’s your life; take control and succeed. What good is a dream when you have no desire to actually work for it?




Already have 5% bf and I own a calculator,and........ahhh fuck the music, that is why God made Depeche Mode!

[booyalab]

All of the INTPs I've known well have been pretty good at reaching goals when the inner motivation is sufficient. That's an important thing to remember about INTPs, actually, the motivation has to come from inside. So this thread is a waste of time.

[Star Cannon]

I kinda agree with Booya.

[misutii]

i think the reason this forum looks like a pool of lost potential is because most members are rather young. intps need time to mature to figure out what they want in the world and that only comes with time.

[Hustler]

Don't forget defiance.
Rejection of societies expectations could be another reason; ie action and success.

That is more likely that not attributable to laziness. It's just a cover.

[Xander]

I think we're digressing (man I hate spelling).
Surely the point of this thread is why are we happy with adequate results?
When we care about a subject we like to become experts on the subject but still we don't want to achieve perfection.
Is there anyone here who is actually an active perfectionist or are we just all consigned to the complaining heap who have perfect plans and less than perfect execution.
I don't think that our lack of drive is anything to do with lazyness or motivation all though Booyalab does make an excellent point. Its my belief, if an INTP can ever truely believe, that we don't often aspire above adequacy because we know that the probability for success drops in accordance with how high your trying to go. We know that perfection is almost impossible and so we're often happy with just ticking all the boxes. Also we are most likely to see more problems with any plan than others and our prepensity to melancholy and depressive behaviour means that we will just give up. Those with drive are often ignoring the potential problems until it smacks them in the face which is why we make such great leiutenants and crappy commanders!
Another possibility is that we are so pissed off with the wold being set up to suit someone else that we jst rebel from birth and by the time someone says what do you want to do our oly honest answer is to change the world and stick two fingers up at the system! However ass everyone knows it will never happen as to change the system you have to join it and its very diffficult to eliminate the machine your in when you need the machine to do the elimination!
Phew I need a breather after all that!

[deus.ex.machina]

Aren't you the one getting married to someone you can't even communicate with?


Let's play a word game!

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I'm having an extremely hard time understanding what this has to do with my post, especially when I have stated time after time that I am actively working on, and implementing solutions to my flaws.

A bit defensive are we?

[deus.ex.machina]

All of the INTPs I've known well have been pretty good at reaching goals when the inner motivation is sufficient. That's an important thing to remember about INTPs, actually, the motivation has to come from inside. So this thread is a waste of time.



No, this thread is a waste of your time. I have heard several good ideas posted in this thread, and I am having quite the enjoyable time kicking ideas back and forth here.

[deus.ex.machina]

I think we're digressing (man I hate spelling).
Surely the point of this thread is why are we happy with adequate results?
When we care about a subject we like to become experts on the subject but still we don't want to achieve perfection.
Is there anyone here who is actually an active perfectionist or are we just all consigned to the complaining heap who have perfect plans and less than perfect execution.
I don't think that our lack of drive is anything to do with lazyness or motivation all though Booyalab does make an excellent point. Its my belief, if an INTP can ever truely believe, that we don't often aspire above adequacy because we know that the probability for success drops in accordance with how high your trying to go. We know that perfection is almost impossible and so we're often happy with just ticking all the boxes. Also we are most likely to see more problems with any plan than others and our prepensity to melancholy and depressive behaviour means that we will just give up. Those with drive are often ignoring the potential problems until it smacks them in the face which is why we make such great leiutenants and crappy commanders!
Another possibility is that we are so pissed off with the wold being set up to suit someone else that we jst rebel from birth and by the time someone says what do you want to do our oly honest answer is to change the world and stick two fingers up at the system! However ass everyone knows it will never happen as to change the system you have to join it and its very diffficult to eliminate the machine your in when you need the machine to do the elimination!
Phew I need a breather after all that!


See what I mean? Here is a post filled with very good ideas that would have never been birthed if it wasn't for this "waste of a time" thread.


Xander: You are absolutely right: an expert level of knowledge will never be attained with a "just good enough" effort being applied to one's domain of study. Many people here are completely content with never mastering anything. I, however, am willing to spend the the greatest majority of my time dedicated to motivated goals.

[thehag]

What good is a dream when you have no desire to actually work for it?

Could't agree more. Why let talent and enthusiasm go to waste? A thread posted, a dream fulfilled, each a goal in its own right, duration being the difference.

What makes us feel alive? Thinking? Perceiving? Maybe, in our own unusual ways, yes. But, I ask myself this, of all the ideas that I have pursued from conception to completion (not many I might add) have I ever felt sorry that I did? No. Regardless of the consequences, I am secure in the knowledge that I have learnt from the outcome.

Completion elevates self esteem.

There is a lot to be learnt from this thread, thankyou deus.ex.machina

[meshou]

Could't agree more....

There is a lot to be learnt from this thread, thankyou deus.ex.machina
But if you already agree, then you didn't learn a thing from it.

If you mean that there's a lot for others to learn, I'd assume that there's a lot for anyone to learn from nearly anything. The point is whether they choose to, and whether that's a legitimate choice.

I maintain it is. What good is a dream never fulfulled? If someone doesn't want to make their dreams reality, there must be a good reason-- or good enough for them. Why try to dictate to them otherwise?

Things like dreams do not have to exist for any purpass, don't need to have value. No one here needs to be great. If they don't want to be, there's nothing wrong with it.

[thehag]

To explain
There is a lot to be learnt from this thread, thankyou deus.ex.machina
I added the name to indicate that this statement was intended soley for the poster, I will refrain from using this type of statement again, thanks for pointing out the ambiguity.

You are quite right though, there is a lot for anyone to learn from nearly anything, which is what makes life interesting.

Finally, I chose the word dream very carefully, its definition "something that you want to happen very much but that is not very likely" should answer your quote
If someone doesn't want to make their dreams reality, there must be a good reason-- or good enough for them. Why try to dictate to them otherwise?
and if I implied that I was possibly dictatorial, again I apologise. If I were, I would probably not be an INTP

[Architectonic]

What's with the mediocrity?

I see you've missed my absense from the forum over the last week or so. :rofl:

Is anyone getting totally sick of these threads? The whingers (those who say they want to achieve something, but are too lazy to do it) are one thing, but these cheap motivational posts are even worse.

Some of us actually believe in realistic priorities and actually strive to achieve them.

Yeah, I mean sure it'd be nice to beat Hydra at chess during lunch, while finalizing the grand unifying theory of physics lecture. Setting a few world records at the olympics, be voted most handsome and brilliant guy in the universe, but will that really make me happy?

[booyalab]

No, this thread is a waste of your time. I have heard several good ideas posted in this thread, and I am having quite the enjoyable time kicking ideas back and forth here.

ok so the current purpose of this thread contradicts your whole initial point? Isn't that nice.

[kwis]

Setting a few world records at the olympics, be voted most handsome and brilliant guy in the universe, but will that really make me happy?

If you ask if something will or should make you happy, it wont. The harder you try to define happiness the more narrow the definition becomes.
deus ex is just trying to help(even though I dont think its doing much good).

[Nighthawk]

All of the INTPs I've known well have been pretty good at reaching goals when the inner motivation is sufficient. That's an important thing to remember about INTPs, actually, the motivation has to come from inside.
i think the reason this forum looks like a pool of lost potential is because most members are rather young. intps need time to mature to figure out what they want in the world and that only comes with time.I seemed to have a lot of inner motivation from around age 15 on. It carried me through my early 20's and I managed to accomplish quite a bit with it ... at least by SJ standards. Full scholarship, BS degree and a solid military career by age 21. I was also married and a father by age 22. Things went relatively well ... according to SJ standards ... but I found myself increasingly unhappy with the status quo life of doing the same thing every day and following orders from people above me just because their titles conferred authority on them. I began a downhill slide of self-sabotage, disregarding the orders of my superiors, drinking, promiscuity ... all to escape the SJ existence in which I had trapped myself. From age 24-30, my motivation was seriously lagging. I still had a few high points ... published some articles, translated a few books on military history, got a few awards, regular pay raises, etc. ... but overall, I was exerting minimum effort and just going through the motions. Even as a unit commander, the supposed pinnacle of SJ achievement for my age, I often did just the minimum I needed to do to get by.

When I finally left the military at age 30, I found a rebirth in my motivation by attending grad school for a computer science degree. It was wonderful to be in a world of creative ideas, rather than a world where I just followed the orders of those above me. It was a magical 3 years (I took one full year of research only) of learning new things and explore a world that held discoveries around every corner. I managed to sustain this motivation through my first few jobs in the industry ... mostly fast moving startups and dotcoms. There was always something new to learn and we were usually on the cutting edge of technology. Around the time I hit 40 though, it started to lose its lustre for some reason. Perhaps its because I had worked through a lot of the types of systems already and things began to look the same. At any rate, I've been suffering from motivation defecit now for a few years, even though I'm still working with relatively new technology. I think much of it stems from the repetitive nature of the job ... butt in the chair from 11-7 every day, long commute, lots of SJ rules etc. The money is good, the benefits are good, and they don't work me particularly hard ... but I'm still in the doldrums. Some of it is due to medication for Tourettes Syndrome, but I think it also has to do with needing a change again. All the more difficult since the easy money has made me complacent. I'm turing to outside projects and online gaming to get some joy, dreams, and motivation back into my life. Hopefully, it will work.

[Claverhouse]

Well, I don't care what anyone says: this thread and Hustler's mentoring has transformed my entire life. Henceforth, after a requisite nap and half a dozen indecent fantasies, I'm going to lead a new life of utter determination and success. Sooner or later.

Thank heaven some people don't mind walking up to and sitting beside strangers without invitation, analysing their faults, and offering free friendly advice on how to turn their wretched lives around. We've all got a lot to be thankful for.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[deus.ex.machina]

ok so the current purpose of this thread contradicts your whole initial point? Isn't that nice.


What?

Couldn't you come up with something contributional rather than attempting to find some way to contradict my reasoning, which is rather foolish considering the non-argumentive nature of this thread.

The purpose of this thread is subject to change as I (or anyone's) train of written thought deviates from it's initial purpose. Do if you want to keep shitting on it - go for it. Your opinions are welcome.

[deus.ex.machina]

Well, I don't care what anyone says: this thread and Hustler's mentoring has transformed my entire life. Henceforth, after a requisite nap and half a dozen indecent fantasies, I'm going to lead a new life of utter determination and success. Sooner or later.

Thank heaven some people don't mind walking up to and sitting beside strangers without invitation, analysing their faults, and offering free friendly advice on how to turn their wretched lives around. We've all got a lot to be thankful for.



Claverhouse :ph34r:


Good for you.

[Ascending]

http://changingminds.org/images/maslow.gif


Thank heaven some people don't mind walking up to and sitting beside strangers without invitation, analysing their faults, and offering free friendly advice on how to turn their wretched lives around. We've all got a lot to be thankful for.Hark! The biting satirical harp of Claverhouse, a mighty force to be reckoned. Your coming and sitting next to deus is more of an accurate analogy as this is his thread which you entered after all.

As far as resembling hustler I suppose he does if you remove the New York back ally open trench coat "pst- ya wanna buy a watch, I've got rolex here!" feeling and lack of ethics. Then again; after that I suppose all that remains in common is critisism of rationalized laziness.

I find the intp qualities coupled with drive and a lack of the oh-so-common melancholy outllook refreshing.

As for quoting, I present a larger target of myself in posting the following.


Don't spend your whole life sharpening the axe.
Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back. Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth, the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then Providence moves too. All sorts of things occur to help one that would never otherwise have occurred. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents and meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamed would have come his way. I learned a deep respect for one of Goethe's couplets:
'Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it.'
Begin it now.・
-W.H. Murray

[deus.ex.machina]

I see you've missed my absense from the forum over the last week or so. :rofl:

Is anyone getting totally sick of these threads? The whingers (those who say they want to achieve something, but are too lazy to do it) are one thing, but these cheap motivational posts are even worse.

Some of us actually believe in realistic priorities and actually strive to achieve them.

Yeah, I mean sure it'd be nice to beat Hydra at chess during lunch, while finalizing the grand unifying theory of physics lecture. Setting a few world records at the olympics, be voted most handsome and brilliant guy in the universe, but will that really make me happy?


Fantastic assesment!

There are several threads here where people are complaining about their "failures" in life, which tells me one of two things 1) they need someone to talk to and are hoping for some magic solution to their failures in life 2) they just feel like complaining. I am attempting to help since it's in my own best interest to see as many self-actualized human beings in this world as possible. If at least one person get's an idea useful towards changing their "failures" than this thread has served it's "cheap motivational" purpose. Perhaps this won't change anything, but if it plants a seed or two I am cool with that.

So what's your idea of a "realistic priority?" Shit kicking your way throughout school and getting a $30,000 a year 9-5?

[deus.ex.machina]

http://changingminds.org/images/maslow.gif

Hark! The biting satirical harp of Claverhouse, a mighty force to be reckoned. Your coming and sitting next to deus is more of an accurate analogy as this is his thread which you entered after all.

As far as resembling hustler I suppose he does if you remove the New York back ally open trench coat "pst- ya wanna buy a watch, I've got rolex here!" feeling and lack of ethics. Then again; after that I suppose all that remains in common is critisism of rationalized laziness.

I find the intp qualities coupled with drive and a lack of the oh-so-common melancholy outllook refreshing.

As for quoting, I present a larger target of myself in posting the following.

Great post, and quote.

[Claverhouse]

And off we go... To Your Success !

Prosperity Affirmations Of Mike Brescia
Mike Brescia and his ground breaking research (http://tinyurl.com/nayo) on the mind is helping thousands of people to experience emotional and behavioral changes that they've never been able to achieve before.


I have a couple of his programs and it's just amazing stuff. The I Am Healed Now! CD is incredible. It's stopped many a cold in its track for me over this past winter.


I've spoken with Mike on the phone and he is enthusiastic, sincere...a truly caring man and I feel blessed that the Universe placed him in my path.


Give yourself an edge and sign up for Mike's free success course. (http://tinyurl.com/nnr0)






I see myself as wealthy and that's who I AM.
I enjoy my prosperity and share it freely with the world.
My income is growing higher and higher NOW.
I AM passionate about building wealth.
All resistance to prosperity has dissolved in total grace.
I CHOOSE determination and persistence over quitting every time.
I deserve to have financial abundance in my life NOW.
Abundance and I are one.
I BELIEVE anyone can be wealthy -- and that includes me.
I AM NOW accumulating large sums of money.
My mind is a powerful magnet for profitable ideas.
Great wealth is flowing to me NOW.
I AM successful because I know what I want and I ask for it.
I create wealth easily and effortlessly.
I dissolve all false messages around creating wealth.
I define success my way and I create it.






Prosperity Affirmations Of Catherine Ponder
"The shocking truth about prosperity is that it is shockingly right instead of shockingly wrong for you to be prosperous. Please note that the word 'rich' means having an abundance of good or living a fuller, more satisfying life. Indeed, you are prosperous to the degree that you are experiencing peace, health, happiness and plenty in your world. There are honorable methods that can carry you quickly toward that goal. It is easier to accomplish than you may now think. That, too, is the shocking truth about prosperity."


CATHERINE PONDER, Dynamic Laws of Prosperity (http://www.affirmations-for-success.com/cgi-bin/site.pl?url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0875165516/forevermoments)


I have a few of Catherine Ponder's books and I recommend them highly. She is considered one of America's foremost inspirational authors and has been described by some as "the Norman Vincent Peale among lady ministers."


I've found her affirmations to be powerful vehicles in changing my mind about deserving prosperity. I hope you do too!






My prosperity is unlimited. My success is unlimited NOW.
I NOW bless everyone, everything, and every situation in my life NOW, as good, good, and very good.
I AM surrounded by divine substance and this divine substance NOW manifests for me in rich appropriate form.
Everything and everbody prospers me NOW and I prosper everything and everybody NOW.
I love the highest and best in all people and I NOW draw the highest, best, and most prosperous minded people to me.
I expect lavish abundance every day in every way in my life and affairs."
I rejoice that I AM successful in all ways."
I give thanks that I AM NOW rich, well and happy.






Prosperity Affirmations Of Jeff Staniforth
Jeff's Mission Statement : "To work with the God force to create spiritual/self help products (http://tinyurl.com/yvyy2) for others and myself, which will enable us to better connect with the God-force, and become co-creative partners and spiritually aware beings."


He's most certainly done that! You need to go and sign up for his free newsletter, Affirmations For The Mind (http://tinyurl.com/yvyy2). It contains great sample affirmations that you can use in your daily practice of affirmations.






I HAVE unlimited abundance.
My greatest good is coming to me NOW.
Money comes to me easily and effortlessly.
I deserve the best and it comes to me NOW!
I AM divinely guided in all I do.
I expect the best and I get it NOW!
Everything good is coming to me easily and effortlessly.
I NOW create my wonderful, ideal life.
All my needs are met instantaneously.
I AM NOW free to do the things I love.
Each day my life is filled with wonders and magic.
I AM in a constant state of fulfillment.
I AM certain that my path is always perfect for me.






Prosperity Affirmations Of Florence Scovel Shinn
"Most people consider life a battle but it is not a battle, it is a game, ...a great game of Giving and Receiving."


FLORENCE SCOVEL SHINN, The Game Of Life (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0875166105/forevermoments)


Florence Scovel Shinn established herself as the leading prosperity writer of the 1920's. She is entertaining and her explanations of success principles are easy to grasp. Her wisdom is timeless and I re-read her books every couple of months because they are so inspiring. Ms. Shinn's writings are still considered the leaders in prosperity literature today.






Every person is a golden link in the chain of my good.
I have a wonderful work, in a wonderful way. I give wonderful service for wonderful pay.
My seeming impossible good now comes to pass, the unexpected NOW happens.
I banish the past and NOW live in the wonderful NOW, where happy surprises come to me each day.
I AM NOW on the royal road of Success, Happiness and Abundance, all the traffic goes my way.
My good NOW flows to me in a steady, unbroken, ever-increasing stream of success, happiness and abundance.
My supply is endless, inexhaustible and immediate and comes to me under grace in perfect ways.
I give thanks that the prosperity which is mine by Divine Right, NOW pours in and piles up under grace in perfect ways.
All things I seek are NOW seeking me.
My good NOW overtakes me in a surprising way.
I serve only faith and my unlimited abundance is made manifest.
I allow myself to have the good things in life and enjoy them.
I am wide awake to my good, I never miss a trick.
I NOW release the goldmine within me.


Claverhouse :ph34r:



As far as resembling hustler I suppose he does if you remove the New York back ally open trench coat "pst- ya wanna buy a watch, I've got rolex here!" feeling and lack of ethics.
Na, he's Elmyra to Hustler's Montana Max.

[Nighthawk]

http://changingminds.org/images/maslow.gif
<Tongue-in-cheek>
There's our problem. As introverts, who shun groups ... and as thinkers, who are not much for love and affection ... we can never get past the Belonging level.
</Tongue-in-cheek>

[booyalab]

Couldn't you come up with something contributional rather than attempting to find some way to contradict my reasoning


Your opinions are welcome.


What?

exactly.



Well, I don't care what anyone says: this thread and Hustler's mentoring has transformed my entire life. Henceforth, after a requisite nap and half a dozen indecent fantasies, I'm going to lead a new life of utter determination and success. Sooner or later.

Thank heaven some people don't mind walking up to and sitting beside strangers without invitation, analysing their faults, and offering free friendly advice on how to turn their wretched lives around. We've all got a lot to be thankful for.
:lol:

[Hustler]

Things like dreams do not have to exist for any purpass, don't need to have value. No one here needs to be great. If they don't want to be, there's nothing wrong with it.

Yes there is.

[CoHo]

So what's your idea of a "realistic priority?" Shit kicking your way throughout school and getting a $30,000 a year 9-5?

Maybe not marrying someone you can't communicate with! *rimshot*

[indie]

There are several threads here where people are complaining about their "failures" in life, which tells me one of two things 1) they need someone to talk to and are hoping for some magic solution to their failures in life 2) they just feel like complaining. I am attempting to help since it's in my own best interest to see as many self-actualized human beings in this world as possible. If at least one person get's an idea useful towards changing their "failures" than this thread has served it's "cheap motivational" purpose. Perhaps this won't change anything, but if it plants a seed or two I am cool with that.

I don't consider myself a failure at all, in fact. . . "success extraordinare" is more like it. People born into money will most likely never experience a certain degree of personal satisfaction in knowing certain things or experience a certain degree of appreciation for what they have, and this is very sad. Indeed, the biggest complainers and worriers are the rich, for they are quite protective of their massive fortunes and estates and physical belongings, willing to do whatever it takes to keep all to themselves, whereas the wealth of knowledge and learning can be shared takes nothing away from anyone. It could almost be said that one of the reasons that the US has prospered in recent centuries is because of this. . . each individual with an individual mind adds value, if their individual mind is not corrupted or selfish. But, given the recent unfortunate circumstances, the distribution of this balance between the rich and the poor is becoming far too divided and it's quite difficult for those who have spent a greater part on the smaller and sparse side, despite the best and greatest of efforts.

[deus.ex.machina]

Maybe not marrying someone you can't communicate with! *rimshot*


Perhaps you can try attacking my argument instead of directing ad hominem attacks towards me; it's not very productive either way, and you obviously have nothing to say anyhow. So you have found one flaw in my personal life, therefore I must "set unrealistic goals and priorities."

Excellent reasoning!

:rofl:

[Architectonic]

Well, I don't care what anyone says: this thread and Hustler's mentoring has transformed my entire life. Henceforth, after a requisite nap and half a dozen indecent fantasies, I'm going to lead a new life of utter determination and success. Sooner or later.

Claverhouse :ph34r:

:rofl:


So what's your idea of a "realistic priority?" Shit kicking your way throughout school and getting a $30,000 a year 9-5?


Absolutely!





If you aren't an INTP.

Although most people don't realize, but you can still get rich from a $30,000 a year job, but you have to learn how to save and invest money properly.

[kuranes]

It's funny, someone suggested that if you turn Maslow's hierarchy on its head, and "self actualize" FIRST, instead of last, you will be better able to cope with dealing with the other levels. This was a mystical "new ager" saying this, and so I took it with a grain of salt; and I wondered if anyone else here believes it. I don't. However, I think it would be interesting to see what an INTP "alternative" pyramid might look like, as an argument could be made that this current Maslovian pyramid is designed to address sensors - to some extent. What constitutes the foundation layer would have to remain the same, though, IMHO. Expanding the analogy, this foundation layer can be supplied by "other pyramids" ( other individuals ) as opposed to one's own efforts; and, in the early years, is often undertaken by the parents, of course.

[CoHo]

Perhaps you can try attacking my argument instead of directing ad hominem attacks towards me; it's not very productive either way, and you obviously have nothing to say anyhow. So you have found one flaw in my personal life, therefore I must "set unrealistic goals and priorities."

but... but... I'm not interested in your argument...

I'm interested in the fact that you find it necessary to give people advice when you don't have anything to show for it.

Right now all I hear is that you are an engaged-22-year-old-college-student with a book full of million dollar ideas, why not quit college and go with one of those ideas?

Yeah, 6% body fat, way to go. Hey what about doing one of those million dollar projects and paying for a doctor to give you a muscle graft?

Oh, minoring in applied mathematics, good call there. Hey what about doing one of those million dollar projects and spending all your free time with a specialized math tutor?

[floyd]

i agree with self actualizing first because you can get lost in the pursuit of money, career, relationships, etc. also, your fluid intelligence / abstract thinking skills are better at 18 than 30 and above. the only thing you need to secure is an ability to cover whatever your physical needs are, the more minimal the better.

as far as esteem and belonging... did newton, galileo, or davinci have much of that? i think more self actualization will often repel esteem from others and belonging because the pool of society is mostly not self actualized. people look for mirrors.

i think the key to happiness is physical fitness + satisfying minimal material sustenance + following your internal mental interests wherever they take you.

[Nighthawk]

It's funny, someone suggested that if you turn Maslow's hierarchy on its head, and "self actualize" FIRST, instead of last, you will be better able to cope with dealing with the other levels. This was a mystical "new ager" saying this, and so I took it with a grain of salt; and I wondered if anyone else here believes it. I don't. However, I think it would be interesting to see what an INTP "alternative" pyramid might look like, as an argument could be made that this current Maslovian pyramid is designed to address sensors - to some extent. What constitutes the foundation layer would have to remain the same, though, IMHO. Expanding the analogy, this foundation layer can be supplied by "other pyramids" ( other individuals ) as opposed to one's own efforts; and, in the early years, is often undertaken by the parents, of course.
I never though about standing the pyramid on it's head. Interesting concept. I made heavy use of Maslow's theory in the military. It was useless to lecture troops on belonging and self-esteem when their primary worries were how to get some real meat to eat, where to take a comfortable dump, and who would be shooting at them later in the day. It was definitely a Level 1, sometimes Level 2, Maslow environment. I spent most of my time addressing basic human needs and safety, rather than pie-in-the-sky concepts. "Bottom of the pyramid" became our unit slogan during the first gulf war.

[deus.ex.machina]

i think the key to happiness is physical fitness + satisfying minimal material sustenance + following your internal mental interests wherever they take you.

I like that.

[CoHo]

deus.ex.machina (member.php?u=1180)

What the fuck is your beef? Huh? You like starting shit with people halfway across the country? Is your life that fucking miserable that you have to put down anyone attempting to better themselves? Sure I might have delusions of grandeur, and I might not have any material items to show for my work yet, but why do you feel the need to rub that shit in? Does it make you feel better to try and cast down those with passion and dreams in life?

The fact is, I might not have accomplished everything yet, and I might never, but as long as I keep getting back up and working towards my goals (no matter how unrealistic you see them as being) I will never fail.


Actually, I have quite alot to show for it considering where I have been in life and where I am now. Perhaps one day I will wake up and all my goals will be completed, but it's more likely I will have to spend years working my ass off to accomplish them (which I have been doing for past several years).

You don't know shit about, but you seem real content on talking shit through the internet and formulating your own off-the-wall conclusions about me rather than contributing something productive. I suspect you have nothing in life; no goals, no accomplishments, no friends, no life, and so you get a kick out of putting down those that do. I actually had a roomate that seems alot like you - wait a minute, you aren't a 28 year old college alcoholic college drop out living with your mom still are you?

And I don't have anything to show for it? Son, don't talk shit when you have no idea who I am, and stop starting shit with me on the internet. Go ahead and have the last word and continue hating on everyone who actually has something going on in their life. I will continue to cut fat, build my mind, minor in applied mathematics, come up with ground breaking ideas, and suceed at life while you talk shit about me from mommies computer.

You are a bitch - clear and simple. Later son.
ho boy!

[deus.ex.machina]

Listen dude, I don't want to start shit with you. I am sorry, I am just talking shit because I am hating on you. I don't just hate on you as an individual, but I hate on everything you stand for: reason, drive, intelligence, goals, happiness, etc. I used to dream, and I used to have passion in life, but soon I realized I didn't have the drive to actually accomplish anything. So now I just spend my time attacking people who still have passion in their life; it makes me feel better to put people down who are winning where I have failed. I spend my life talking shit on my mom's computer and hating the society that I don't belong in. I suck at life; plain and simple, and now I am a cynical asshole who feels the need to hate on everyone who is working towards a better life. I am sorry for posting your pm, please don't post this.

fuck you I'm posting it anyways. :sobs:

[CoHo]

For what it's worth, I don't have any 'beef' with you dad. You don't seem to be able to take a small amount of needling without flipping your loins though.

Dad, people will always be giving you a hard time about your viewpoints or goals, it is up to you to determine how you want to react to them.

Right now you don't seem to be reacting all that well dad

[MacGuffin]

This thread may just reach "Hustler advice" Classic status yet!

[CoHo]

Listen dude, I don't want to start shit with you. I am sorry, I am just talking shit because I am hating on you. I don't just hate on you as an individual, but I hate on everything you stand for: reason, drive, intelligence, goals, happiness, etc. I used to dream, and I used to have passion in life, but soon I realized I didn't have the drive to actually accomplish anything. So now I just spend my time attacking people who still have passion in their life; it makes me feel better to put people down who are winning where I have failed. I spend my life talking shit on my mom's computer and hating the society that I don't belong in. I suck at life; plain and simple, and now I am a cynical asshole who feels the need to hate on everyone who is working towards a better life. I am sorry for posting your pm, please don't post this.

fuck you I'm posting it anyways.
http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/cry.png

[deus.ex.machina]

For what it's worth, I don't have any 'beef' with you dad. You don't seem to be able to take a small amount of needling without flipping your loins though.

Dad, people will always be giving you a hard time about your viewpoints or goals, it is up to you to determine how you want to react to them.

Right now you don't seem to be reacting all that well dad

No, I don't take irrational criticism (aka other people's judgements) of me very well from any angle or from any person. If you attack something I really do suck at (like interpersonal skills) I really wouldn't give a shit, but when people attack my values and intellectual pursuits of being meaningless I generally get extremely pissed. Perhaps it's my inferior F function, or however you want to psychologize it. Perhaps this is where my disdain for being around people stems from, and why I spend every waking moment aiming for perfection: to eliminate criticism from any person, including myself (actually that sounds quite right). Is that clarified for you? BTW, thanks for feeding my ego.

So how about we get back to the point of thread, and for now on if you want to attack me take it to PMs please rather than hijacking whatever I annoy you in.

[deus.ex.machina]

This thread may just reach "Hustler advice" Classic status yet!



Why would a thread littered with flames and shit talking be placed in a Classic section? Isn't that a bit stupid for people aiming to acquire competence and intelligence in life? What does anyone learn from this - that even a group of people that are "supposed to be" intelligent and tolerant actually have very low tolerances for other people's opinions and will violently attacker another's values when their own are criticized?

Meh, there are some good posts in here if you skim over my, corporate whore, booyalab, and archectinocs posts.

[Hustler]

Why would a thread littered with flames and shit talking be placed in a Classic section? Isn't that a bit stupid for people aiming to acquire competence and intelligence in life? What does anyone learn from this - that even a group of people that are "supposed to be" intelligent and tolerant actually have very low tolerances for other people's opinions and will violently attacker another's values when their own are criticized?

Because people like controversy. Go ahead and put that one in your million dollar notebook.

[deus.ex.machina]

Meh, this place has siezed to serve a productive purpose.

Interesting... Peace.

[MacGuffin]

Yes, message boards are always extremely productive places!

[Nighthawk]

Yes, message boards are always extremely productive places!
They do manage to keep me distracted from my job ;)

[MacGuffin]

They do manage to keep me distracted from my job ;)Tell me about it.

30 more minutes...

[Claverhouse]

I'm pretty sure I put the 'Hustler' thread in Classics. Anything for amusement in our worthless lives.

Anyway, since this thread was started I haven't had a single cold.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Hustler]

They do manage to keep me distracted from my job ;)

This, of course, goes back to one of my original points in the very same thread people were likening this one to earlier. It's time you got some self-respect, got rid of that job, and lived up to your potential!

[Nighthawk]

This, of course, goes back to one of my original points in the very same thread people were likening this one to earlier. It's time you got some self-respect, got rid of that job, and lived up to your potential!
I've been telling myself that for some time now.

[Claverhouse]

It's time you got some self-respect
'Self-respect' is such an ugly word. Or combine-word. Also it generally leads directly to self-worship.

This thread may go in too. Depends how I feel.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[kwis]

CorporateWhore I am sorry to admit that I think alot like you. I dont insult people or try to take a shit on their motivation. But inside my head I secretly envy and despise these people for having meaning and purpose in their life. On one hand I kind of want to destroy their happiness by telling them how simple they are for taking pleasure in whatever they are doing. On the other hand, I watch them and try to learn and understand how they could be happy(then get frustrated). I hate confrontation and never start shit with anyone.

[Nighthawk]

CorporateWhore I am sorry to admit that I think alot like you. I dont insult people or try to take a shit on their motivation. But inside my head I secretly envy and despise these people for having meaning and purpose in their life. On one hand I kind of want to destroy their happiness by telling them how simple they are for taking pleasure in whatever they are doing. On the other hand, I watch them and try to learn and understand how they could be happy(then get frustrated). I hate confrontation and never start shit with anyone.I have the same bifurcated view. Part of me despises people who are motivated all the time ... yet the other part wants to learn to be more like them. Part of me also despises people who can be happy all the time ... thinking that they cannot see all the shit they should be unhappy about. The other part admires them for not letting the shit get to them (or perhaps really not seeing it). I also try hard not to be confrontational about it. Why piss on somebody else's parade?

[kuranes]

Meh, this place has siezed to serve a productive purpose.

Interesting... Peace.

Stick around. There are some people who enjoy your POV. Don't let a little static cause you to lose the purpose of "radio". I think you're a pretty cool guy. I would be interested in hearing your views on politics.

[Zero Angel]

CorporateWhore I am sorry to admit that I think alot like you. I dont insult people or try to take a shit on their motivation. But inside my head I secretly envy and despise these people for having meaning and purpose in their life. On one hand I kind of want to destroy their happiness by telling them how simple they are for taking pleasure in whatever they are doing. On the other hand, I watch them and try to learn and understand how they could be happy(then get frustrated). I hate confrontation and never start shit with anyone.
Yeah, but even worse is the people who tell us how bad their lives are. Shit, I have bad days, OK days and good days. The bad days hurt like hell and I mean they really hurt. When I look at myself, I realize that I caused all this bullshit. What is so great about hearing how bad everyone elses life is? What comfort does it give anyone? It's suprising what people are turning against now.

Not trying to bring you down a notch or anything Kwis. Your posts are enjoyable to read. But everyone else seems to be getting a whole lot more bitter as a whole. Maybe we are just mirroring each other like crazy or something.

DXM, your comments were inspiring. Thx dude.

[Nighthawk]

Stick around. There are some people who enjoy your POV. Don't let a little static cause you to lose the purpose of "radio". I think you're a pretty cool guy. I would be interested in hearing your views on politics.
I second that. I've enjoyed reading your posts too, deus.

[CoHo]

CorporateWhore I am sorry to admit that I think alot like you. I dont insult people or try to take a shit on their motivation. But inside my head I secretly envy and despise these people for having meaning and purpose in their life. On one hand I kind of want to destroy their happiness by telling them how simple they are for taking pleasure in whatever they are doing. On the other hand, I watch them and try to learn and understand how they could be happy(then get frustrated). I hate confrontation and never start shit with anyone.


I don't envy or despise people because they have meaning. I don't even know why deus took my posts to the extreme that he did. I don't even mind the guy, I don't care one way or the other.

All I was saying is why do you have million dollar ideas sitting in a notebook as you try to graduate from college. Why are you telling other people how to live their life when you need to sort out your own problems. Why are you spending 1 hour a night learning a musical instrument when you could be working on one of these 'ideas'.

Maybe I pushed the whole 'million dollar notebook' too far. Whatever. That was my point. If a person wants to be happy because they are getting exercise, learning music and spending time in college, then more fucking power to them. But my comments shouldn't shatter their entire world and bring them to a frothing frenzy of hate.

But as far as insulting people. I don't ever intentionally try to insult people, if they take it as an insult, well fuckem.

[kendoiwan]

I don't envy or despise people because they have meaning. I don't even know why deus took my posts to the extreme that he did. I don't even mind the guy, I don't care one way or the other.

All I was saying is why do you have million dollar ideas sitting in a notebook as you try to graduate from college. Why are you telling other people how to live their life when you need to sort out your own problems. Why are you spending 1 hour a night learning a musical instrument when you could be working on one of these 'ideas'.

Maybe I pushed the whole 'million dollar notebook' too far. Whatever. That was my point. If a person wants to be happy because they are getting exercise, learning music and spending time in college, then more fucking power to them. But my comments shouldn't shatter their entire world and bring them to a frothing frenzy of hate.

But as far as insulting people. I don't ever intentionally try to insult people, if they take it as an insult, well fuckem.


Listen don't compromise on this one. I'm with you 110% My thing is since I am aware of my shortcomings I surround myself with people who don't reinforce them. One of my mentors in an ENTJ, another an ENTP. Among my closest friends are an INTJ, ISFP, ISTP, ENFP,ENFJ,INFJ,ISFJ. All this to say, an idea isn't shit in and of it self. Especially not in this world we live in. If you can't point to something and say this is my work I'm responsible for that, then to 85% of the population you don't exist. We tend to overthink things, and in the process miss out on opportunity. Learn from the SP and act in the moment, learn from the INTJ, and ENTJ and implement your ideas. Learn from the NF and live a little. But above all leave your mark on this world. If you gotta go to work everyday you might as well run the joint, if you gotta pay rent might as well get the most bang for your buck, if you wanna date prettier women, or sexier guys, take a fucking shower, take two, brush your stanking mouth, learn what color coordination is. Don't just play the game master the game.

Why squander our gift? We are aware of things 85% of the population are clueless to. Why not make it work for us? Stop figuring out why it won't work, or can't work, or why it's meaningless anyway, and make it work. Not much of anything is meaningful, or flawless anyway. Stop making excuses and start making things happen. Or as they say where I'm from, don't talk about it, Be about.

[Ascending]

It's static CW, it contributes nothing and kills the signal:noise ratio.

Personaly I don't know where you got the feeling he is telling people how to live their life. Perhaps I missed somthing and I don't care to reread the 12 pages now but the whole gist I got was - This is working for me, anyone else try it?

[Xander]

Well this shows the under developed Fs round here brilliantly!
Deus you'd be a fool to give up because your way a life hasn't got you a Ferrari and a bimbo yet. You'd be a miserable millionaire from the sounds of it.
Two things.
One you will always find someone who hates what your doing. Especially because your doing what he can and making him uncomfortable.
Two you may not have a lot of paper in your back pocket but you do have a cool mind and a decent heart. That sounds like riches to me.
Oh and just to head off any detractors, no I don't follow Deus's advise. But that doesn't mean I don't agree with them. Being a hippocrit doesn't make me wrong.

[Hustler]

Stick around. There are some people who enjoy your POV. Don't let a little static cause you to lose the purpose of "radio". I think you're a pretty cool guy. I would be interested in hearing your views on politics.

Dude, when did you turn into an INFP? Who cares about this guy! He's gotten slapped around on one thread and he's already whining?

[Star Cannon]

Well, Deus.Ex.Machina., maybe we are highly motivated people with stuff to do about changing the world but we just haven't gotten around showing it _in_ _this_ _forum_.

[kuranes]

Dude, when did you turn into an INFP? Who cares about this guy! He's gotten slapped around on one thread and he's already whining?
He acquitted himself well in his fights/arguments. He didn't get "slapped around", although a couple people threw criticisms his way. He gave as good as he got, if not better.

I'm guessing he's deciding whether to use his computer/online time someplace where people are working together towards goals of the sort he described. Unfortunately for us, this may not be one of the places he picks. I agree with Mac that there is only so much that can be done on a bulletin board, but we might have gotten in to proposing other things beyond that if he stayed/stays.

Hectoring people about the sad state of their current status is only a tiny part of "inspiration" Hustler, a lesson you would do well to learn. I don't think he would have carried on the Mediocrity thread so long if he wasn't responding to these criticisms just mentioned. He would have been more involved in Creative Theory, and other areas. He was basically a friendly guy too, which counted FOR him, and not AGAINST him, in MY book.

Is Kuranes an INFP? The few tests I've taken have diagnosed me as an INTP, but it could be that I'm "on the cusp" or whatever the phrase would be in this case. Would it be so bad if I was an INFP? We seem to have all types here, including INTP's who have more Fe than other INTP's. See the thread I started long ago called "Is Kuranes an INTP?" Feel free to voice your opinion on this subject of concern.

[MacGuffin]

Talking about deus in another thread made me look this one up.

PLACE-HOLDER FOR CLASSIC STATUS

[Stinger911]

In my short time here, this is probably the most important thread I've encountered.

An INTP's INCREDIBLE capacity to rationally think, analyze, systemetize, and theorize leads to almost limitless possibilities in the REAL WORLD, given that an INTP does indeed want to change some aspect of his life.

Now, I know some of you may be unsatisfied where you are. Perhaps, you're always starting things and never seem to complete them. Perhaps your feeling side is so under-developed that you have a hard time with the opposite sex.

Maybe you feel inhibited and alone in the world. And of course, why not, since INTP are only 1% of the population?

Okay, true. But don't make excuses for yourself! Don't analyze your life away!!

I proved to myself that I CAN change, and I'm not condemned to live my life and chase my dreams only in my head. A few years ago, I was a sad sack. Total introvert, socially retarded, overweight, and obsessed with one girl... in order to get her, I put my powerful INTP mind to use... "Why didn't she like me?" I asked myself. "What about me is unattractive that I can change?"

These questions led me on an incredibly perspective-alterting journey where I spent countless days and nights reading self-help books. I learned radical concepts like "Happiness is a choice" and "You choose whether or not to be a victim."

I also joined a weightlifting program. Now, I don't know if I would have actually followed through with the program had I not followed a pre-existing structure. The way I went about it was that I joined a summer weightlifting team at my school-- only athletes were required to take it. The only "sport" I played was "bowling," so of course I was exempt from taking the classes. Nevertheless, I wanted to. Drudge work has zero appeal to me. But since I SIGNED UP for the class and it was a well-known fact that I was NOT an athlete, I didn't want to WUSS OUT and have everyone believe that I lacked heart and determination-- that I wasn't "cut out" for lifting and that I "didn't belong."

Actually, the lifting was easy compared to the brutal sprints we had to run. But in my mind, I had a clear purpose... I wanted to be attractive to women, specifically that one girl.

Well, as it turns out I never did get that one girl. But I attracted many others. And I had completely changed my body and my attitudes for the better. I learned that rational analysis has it's place. But there is also a time for action.

Imagine that your life is a movie. You can be the BEST movie director in all of hollywood... but if you don't have any actors, that movie isn't gonna get made. What I learned is that as INTP, we make great directors. We have rare insight into situations and see patterns that other types often don't... but we absolutely CRIPPLE ourselves if we never act. The movie will never get made.

Going in with a BAD plan or an INCOMPLETE plan is better than NOT going in at all. The great thing about our "movie" is that we have all of our lives to revise it. But if we never truly START IT, then it won't ever get made.

I have a great respect for INTPs. However, if you never ACT, then you're just a director without a team. You're just an armchair philosopher.

If you think you're happy just living in your own head and leaving no mark on the 'real world' --- self-actualizing and VALIDATING your ideas--- then I have to believe that your reference point of "happiness" isn't as big as it could be. If I just described you, then chances are, you COULD be living a happier life by validating your theories (about the world and about yourself) in the real world.

The inescapable fact is that the human being is a goal-striving machine. Without actively striving toward some goal, we can't truly be happy. We feel ineffectual and unproductive. Please read "Psycho Cybernetics" by Maxwell Maltz for more on this. That book really changed my life for the better...

[Levity]

Now only if stinger could tell me that every morning when I woke up... lol

[airjaw]

I'm glad I took the time to read through this thread, sarcastic comments and flames and all.

I will just add my personal experience, which is that it is a constant struggle for me to stay focused on my goals and not give up. I don't know whether its OK to just remain in my natural state, which consists of waking up whenever I feel like, eating breakfast, and reading the news and forums, never striving for anything in particular, just doing what comes naturally to me. Honestly I could probably do this forever, although I would still feel regret that I did not pursue my goals more enthusiastically.

Of course, when I really think about it, sitting around all day comfortable in my little bubble is not the way I want to live my life. I don't think anyone really wants to live life that way. Inevitably you realize that something is missing and that you're missing the feeling of accomplishment that only comes from wanting something bad and working hard enough to get it.

edit:: I will say that there must be some kind of balance though. It's unrealistic and detrimental to our health to be out of our comfort zone 24/7. No amount of self-motivation or pep talk or technique will sustain the INTP if he is in sales, for example. Our goals and dreams have to be in line with reality and what we really want. I want to start a company someday, but not by myself. I'm wise enough to know that I'd need an ENTJ as a partner.

[walfin]

There are several people here who have done, and do stuff irl. Built companies, do meaningful work and all that.

That said, I think the people who are most busy with real life stuff probably wouldn't have as much time to post much.

And Gordon Brown would probably lurk here sometimes if he didn't have all those pesky security people walking around. :p

[Ezion]

Many of us are chasing our own dreams.

But realize that your dreams offer no satisfaction unless they are your own. Otherwise you will get to the end of that road built on worldly values and realize that it is empty.

That is what stops INTPs. We see the pointlessness of it all. Many of us spend lifetimes searching for something we see as worthy of pursuing.

Some find it. Some don't. Either way, it is up to the individual, and nobody else.

While good intentioned, the OP's post is ultimately futile. An INTPs motivation must come from within, or it will not last.

[intpgolfer]

... it is just a short step from moderation.

[!diom]

I never liked Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I'm at the bottom looking up.

[JohnClay]

I haven't read the thread but anyway I listen/read self-help stuff fairly often. One of them talked about perfectionism and how in their early years they would get excellent grades and later on they'd procrastinate and do badly. Sometimes I'm like that... I'd rather do something badly by not trying than try really hard and do badly.

[MoneyJungle]

If it is any consolation for you, I fall far short of mediocrity.

[Ferrus]

I like to consider myself a philosophy.

Not a very good one mind, still.

[Curtis24]

Here is my solution that has helped me immensely: Make goals and stick with them until they are completed. Don’t give up because you’ve found a better idea.

This is actually incredibly good advice. The number 1 reason I fail to achieve anything is because I keep thinking there's a better idea or way just around the corner.

[Llewellyn]

Interesting story, as I just had a thought that other people walk away with showing things, while 'we' content with just having the idea. It's some form of heroism, or maybe it's our knowing better. Maybe we reserve our actions for when it's really necessary. Ideas can be really great for their own.

You sound ENTJ almost (for whatever much I know about that type).


Look at the archetypal INTP, the architect Howard Roark from Ayn Rand&#226;€™s The Fountainhead.

This is great. I was looking for clear INTP examples. Gonna check this out.

Edit: BTW, threads like these only make me become more introverted.

Edit 2: That we can live with ideas merely is a gift.

Edit 3: Fortunately, after being so 'roused' because of my reaction to this topic, I return to a more 'farmer' life (a relaxed state, doing the everyday things, content having my ideas somewhere there).

[Llewellyn]

Why should everyone be great? Why should everyone strive to be great if they're not naturally driven to it? Part of our value is what makes us different, including any presence or lack of drive.


I agree with this. I even think the challenge for an ENTJ (sorry if you disagree with me typing you as that, at least you're close) is to do more what comes naturally (and not for the sake of it). The OP did however inspire me to surely go to an upcoming meeting of a small group where we will discuss ideas for the business I now work at.

[Guitarded]

and how does that benefit your buried decomposing body or strewn ashes?

^ That is not an INTP question. That is the kind of question I hear from ENTJs. Fabricating a silly question or statement that is logically infallable, yet not necessarily the feelings of the poster. The intent of posting such a question is to throw a person off their convictions against the statement, basically to flabbergast them. Such a question asked by an ENTJ would serve no more purpose than to give the ENTJ some small measure of entertainment at watching the INTP get frustrated.

[floyd]

there's nothing silly about the rational reality that life is temporary (currently), so putting effort into accomplishments ("making and keeping goals") can reasonably considered a waste of time. because of this truth (and possibly other reasons) intps tend towards nihilism, so they are more likely than other types to be slackers.

[airjaw]

Look, your solution is the solution. It is mind numbingly easy. Yet these people do not, on average, take the most easy, obvious solution in the world. They whine about it on an internet forum.

People who whine tend to continue to whine. You can conclude, that since not solvin g the problem is harder than solving it, they must want to whine. They are doing exactly what they want until they decide they don't. And when they do, your advice will be obvious to them.

Truth. The answer is obvious: just fucking do it. Implementation, however, takes hard work. It's a lot easier to just get on an internet forum and whine about it. That seems to be what INTP does best when he doesn't have the courage yet.

[kali]

Meh, that isn't mediocrity, that's brilliance inactivated.

[Isagel]

As I grow older, I feel increasing regret that I never did develop at least one of my many talents beyond the point where I knew I could be really good if I would only put in a consistant effort.

As a lazy fluttering INTP I am grateful that some people did put in such efforts. Otherwise I would be unable to fill my apathetic days with reading brilliant novels, listening to superior music, looking at art that is disturbing in an interesting way, drinking amazing wine, eating creative food....the list can go on.

I wonder about how the world would be if also more of us INTPs with our sometimes unique ideas and perspectives were capable of bringing more of our potential into fruitition.

For myself I fear that it is to late. Now I cheat by teaming up with energetic and focused SJs. It is amazing what can be done if you can manage to persuade them to follow your rules and complete your ideas.

[30footsmurf]

I thought when I came here I would find a plethora of computer engineers, mathematicians, philosopher’s, and highly motivated individual’s seeking truth. Instead I find a large group of people who are extremely bright, have polymath tendencies, but who refuse to take charge of their life and make their ideas reality (I am of course generalization off of the majority of posts I find here). Personally, I have notebooks filled with million dollar ideas, and I am guilty of passiveness as well. So our minds are constantly active, okay but what is the use of an active mind when it doesn’t produce any tangible products? What do we have to show for all these wonderful idea we come up with?

A constantly active mind is its own reward and punishment. I don't really want to do anything great in a general sense of success as I do not wish for some short sited retard to decide that my idea was great and will serve his purposes well. I think in our society today it is far more likely for a great idea to serve interests opposed to mine, so i'm not going to give society what I have to offer. They do what they want to do but I'm not gonna help them. I'm not gonna be the guy introducing a new coke bottle to the bushmen. (see the gods must be crazy)

My goals are simple and though like you said, I can achieve more, I don't want to give more to society, unless it is something moving with me, not against me. Currently my goal is to become a teacher so that I can provide clarity and honesty in a class room setting.




Here is my solution that has helped me immensely: Make goals and stick with them until they are completed. Don’t give up because you’ve found a better idea. For instance, I hate math more than any other subject and guess what? I am minoring in applied mathematics. I hate being on a diet, but I have been on a diet for the past several months and will continue until I reach my goal of 7% bf (which should be reached by late August). I hate practicing scales and most theory for music, but I suck it up and just practice anyways for at least 1 hour a day, then I spend the rest of my time jamming. The point is, making and keeping goals will allows us INTPs to learn how to make our ideas reality. We also need to learn how to capitalize on our strengths, instead of just tweaking our weaknesses.

When I wanted to learn guitar and scales, I just played a lot, and when I had a reason to know something I learned it. Sure there are still better guitar players than I, but I'm still pretty good and I can draw a crowd if I want to. I'm still kinda shaky on theory though. It just seems like a complicated box to put yourself in. I was a music major for a while and I got a C in theory. That shit was taking the fun out of everything.




We are natural system builders; so build dammit! Don’t just think about it, do it, and do it well. There is no reason for such an intelligent group of people to be so mediocre. Fuck being jacks of all trades when we can be masters of all trades if we work hard enough. I aim for excellence and perfection in everything I put my mind to. Our productive work is representative of our values. Do you really want to represent a value system filled with mediocrity? Fuck that – succeed; make goals, accomplish goals, and move on. We, as volitional beings, are designed for creativity and a rational control over our environment. Look at the archetypal INTP, the architect Howard Roark from Ayn Rand’s The Fountainhead. That could be anyone of us, with any one of our endeavors, yet most of us don’t have the balls needed to take the plunge from internal ideas to external products like Roark did. It’s your life; take control and succeed. What good is a dream when you have no desire to actually work for it?

Theres the problem, your aim is off. hahha
My aim in just about everything is understanding and competence. For me to move past competence at something I need to think that I will be using that knowledge well into the future and will actually have use for knowing an entire subject. I can know a lot about a subject, or just enough for conversations and this i think complements my life far more than the countless hours of practice and study it would take to master something. And when would I know I was done, is someone going to tell me I'm a master. How did they get to be masters? Am I their master, or are we co-masters? What if we disagree? Is only one of us the real master? Its totally subjective and silly. I learn enough for what I need to do, then learn for understanding and entertainment.

What is it that makes you think you have to build anything? I get my greatest satisfaction when I'm caught completely unprepared for something and I'm able to use the random resources that happen to be at my disposal to pull situational success right out of my ass. I do this for tests as a matter of practice really, but once I was facing a 8 hour drive and my portable CD player stopped working. I was able to pull over and I had it working again within minutes because I used a piece of a lighter to close the circuit for the broken battery assembly.
I'm more arguing because I like to argue, I think you've got some good points, I just don't like the full speed ahead nature of it. I like to do things in my own time unless otherwise inspired.