Counterpoint

[waxwing]

Okay, so it seems that learning counterpoint is necessary for composers. However, where does counterpoint become too restrictive? What are the pros and cons of this method ( ie. the art of combining single, independent lines)? If you actually have taken counterpoint classes for your major, then maybe you could provide some insight.

I find the idea of counterpoint fascinating, and often think of the word when trying to describe something from an entirely different field. As the word "contrapuntal" comes to mind, I think that it must be a useful word for artists in general. A strong visual for any kind of combinatory thinking and analysis, perhaps.

By the way, I was/am not a music major. Music Composition is one of my passions, though, so I have been fairly active in working independently and with others (assisting in performing their compositions, etc.). I am happy to see this forum, and hope to increase my understanding/motivation.

Your thoughts on the subject? Expand/diverge as you wish.

[Hexchild]

Could you please elaborate on the meaning of the word "counterpoint" in terms of music composition? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

[cjs55]

Counterpoint in and of itself has a beauty of its own, but as a main focus died with the romantics.

To the above poster, counterpoint is best shown with Bach's works. At least I think so.

[waxwing]

Could you please elaborate on the meaning of the word "counterpoint" in terms of music composition? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.Sure, but I'll give you a more concise definition than my own.

From wikipedia:

Counterpoint is a very general feature of music (especially prominent in much Western music) whereby two or more melodic strands occur simultaneously – in separate voices, either literally or metaphorically (if the music is instrumental).

[Maniac]

I like counterpoint. It's a great tool to spice up any melody. Sometimes I try to derive a contrapuntal melody as a scaled down version of a full harmony, or sometimes it just comes by itself.

[Hexchild]

Right. I've read up a little bit on it, but I reserve the right to have misunderstood what I've read. Assuming I didn't:

Apparently I'm using counterpoint a lot in some of my compositions, but hardly at all in some. I think it depends mainly on the general "feel" of the music, but it's rarely ever central to the piece. An example of a case where I tend to use it a lot is to enhance the dreamy feel in some of my more relaxed, harmonic works.

[cjs55]

It should be noted that when people speak of counterpoint there are 2 different things you could be talking about: The set of rules that Bach used, or the general concept of 2 or more independent lines occuring at the same time.

I have also heard people refer to a melody with counterpoint in a linear instead of horizontal sense.

[waxwing]

Right. I've read up a little bit on it, but I reserve the right to have misunderstood what I've read. Assuming I didn't:

Apparently I'm using counterpoint a lot in some of my compositions, but hardly at all in some. I think it depends mainly on the general "feel" of the music, but it's rarely ever central to the piece. An example of a case where I tend to use it a lot is to enhance the dreamy feel in some of my more relaxed, harmonic works.
Interesting. Hm. I wonder why counterpoint can enhance the "dreamy feel?" What do you think?

I sort of associate counterpoint with layering, and therefore like to imagine each line standing on its own. Surreal, I suppose. The single melodic line is almost always evokative to me.

[waxwing]

It should be noted that when people speak of counterpoint there are 2 different things you could be talking about: The set of rules that Bach used, or the general concept of 2 or more independent lines occuring at the same time.

I have also heard people refer to a melody with counterpoint in a linear instead of horizontal sense.
Good clarification.

I'm not sure I understand the linear vs. horizontal distinction. Please explain.

[Hexchild]

Interesting. Hm. I wonder why counterpoint can enhance the "dreamy feel?" What do you think?

I can only relate to my own work here. I like to combine multiple short, repetitive melody patterns in various ways, sometimes in combination with a single, longer melody, to achieve this. I often use similar, but not identical, instruments. I think the "enhancement of dreamyness" stems from the way I combine the different notes, simultaneous or not, into additional harmonies (and sometimes dissonancies) that enrich the harmonies provided by the background.

It provides a more subtle, dreamy effect when these "extra chords" are barely present but constantly hinted upon, and it works particularly well when the melody is given less focus than normally, partly falling back into the supporting background chords.

I hope I'm making some sense here.. :D


After all, I'm self-taught and most of the music terms I know are Swedish.

[waxwing]

I can only relate to my own work here. I like to combine multiple short, repetitive melody patterns in various ways, sometimes in combination with a single, longer melody, to achieve this. I often use similar, but not identical, instruments. I think the "enhancement of dreamyness" stems from the way I combine the different notes, simultaneous or not, into additional harmonies (and sometimes dissonancies) that enrich the harmonies provided by the background.

It provides a more subtle, dreamy effect when these "extra chords" are barely present but constantly hinted upon, and it works particularly well when the melody is given less focus than normally, partly falling back into the supporting background chords.

I hope I'm making some sense here.. :D


After all, I'm self-taught and most of the music terms I know are Swedish.
Yes, I think I understand. Sounds dependent on the voicing you choose and the variation of your melodies.

I especially like this idea:



It provides a more subtle, dreamy effect when these "extra chords" are barely present but constantly hinted upon, and it works particularly well when the melody is given less focus than normally, partly falling back into the supporting background chords.
Aaaah.

[lexiphanic]

I really enjoyed counterpoint. If you follow the structure put forth by the early composers, you basically will have something that sounds good if your melody doesn't suck. And even then it might come out sounding alright.

I have large plans for incorporating counterpoint into songs in many ways. intp ways. One thing that would be fun would be to have a (generally speaking) main theme and a secondary theme. The main theme and the secondary theme would mesh together, but the main theme would eventually cut out as the song winds down. Then you bring in a simple counterpoint to spruce up the ending of the song mixing it in with the secondary theme.

However, I've only worked with classical counterpoint. Something I would like to try with the classical version would be to add dissonance, and rhythmic variation.

[The Mathemagician!]

I'm in a thread resurrecting mood!

Counterpoint...

Although I have no formal training, I've had this passing fascination with Bach. Combine that with my experimenting with midi and my love of mathy pop music (and by pop, I mean catchy as all hell, not the stuff on the radio). What I ended up with is this bastardized version of counterpoint up the ying-yang. I can't write a song anymore without layering the hell out of it with intertwining melodies. I even went so far as to start another band completely based on it, but with just guitar, bass, and drums.

Now when listening to music, I find my brain coming up with all these little counter melodies. It makes listening to top 40 semi enjoyable.

In conclusion, Top 40 radio needs more harpsichord.

[Elizabeth B]

Have you read Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid?

It's great reading if you enjoy both math and music.

[Mirath]

I have no formal training in music, though I do use a synthesizer program to compose music. Reading your posts alone is not enough for me to figure out exactly what this "counterpoint" thing is. Could someone tell me where to find more information?

[The Mathemagician!]

Have you read Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid?

It's great reading if you enjoy both math and music.

I actually started reading it, and really enjoyed the first 300 pages or so. Then, by about the 400 mark, I lost interested and started reading about string theory.

Maybe I'll pick it up again, but it's been a couple years. What's the proper etiquette in these situations: do I need to start at the beginning? Or can I just pick up near where I left off?

[deus ex machina]

I've study the fux method of counterpoint, which influenced the styles of mozart, haydn, beethoven and I'm sure thousands of composers over the past couple of centuries. Most part writing in music school relies on the fux method, and I have to admit I am not that impressed with it. I do like that it is a rather complex system, which allows for a practically unlimited amount of expression and creativity. I do not, however, like the reliance that composition programs use on this method.

I have gotten into several arguments with my teacher's regarding relying on the rules of counterpoint as a crutch, or a necessary system of rules a composer in training must follow. My writing method relies on sounds rather than the logic of the system. I come up with melodies and use the rules as a general guideline to follow, but I have come up with numerous situations where it just sounds better to me, subjectively, to use shit theory generally hate, such as parrallel fifths and octaves. Try using succesive powerchords in composition presented to a college professor of music theory and watch how they respond.

I suppose it is my taste for dissonance and chromaticism that tends to annoy my teachers, since they have classically trained ears obviously. I like using suspensions as replacement for root position triads, since they tend to invoke a mystical feel in passages (being that they don't resolve cleanly).

I do, however, find that these rules for counterpoint are an excellent starting point for practicing theory and part writing. I spent probably hundreds of hours going threw books on this method and just practicing putting together harmony using the 5 species.

Heres a good site for learning the basic rules: http://www.ars-nova.com/cpmanual/
Get Fux's book too - it's very helpful. A very good reference tool as well is the textbook Tonal Harmony by Kostka and Payne - we use it for all theory 1-5 at my school.