Woah... O.o am INTP! (Air Force)

[Chief]

I just found out that am an INTP :) Am leaving for the U.S. Air Force in about 4 days. Am under the "General" job category and will have to choose a job during BMT (boot camp). http://usmilitary.about.com/od/airforceenlistedjobs/a/afjobgen.htm
Listing of the jobs.
First off, am actually very happy am an INTP. Most descriptions are very accurate. I could never hold a steady job, and already been through 4-5 jobs within my first year at college.

Basically, I just want opinions of fellow INTPs about which career they would choose in the same category, and why they would choose that. :whistle:
Because right now, am kinda uncertain what I would like to do in the Air Force. And am thinking, maybe, people of the same personality type can help me narrow down jobs.

Thank you. :)

[Bugeater]

Well, could you maybe narrow it down further by eliminating the ones you absolutely don't want to do. Why don't you do that first, then list your top ten or something and ask for opinions? INTPs have diverse interests. What one likes, another may easily hate.

[garak]

jax0m (look her up here if you want) was a mechanic in the army and I don't think she liked it so much. She definitely didn't like it as a civilian afterwards, anyway. She's now doing satellite tech stuff and while she doesn't seem challenged or TOO excited by it, it seems to be much better than mechanic work. But again that is as a civilian so interpret it as you wish.

[garak]

1N1X1-IMAGERY ANALYSIS (G-64)
1N4X1-SIGNALS INTELLIGENCE ANALYSIS (G-58)
3C0X2-COMMUNICATIONS - COMPUTER SYSTEMS PROGRAMMING (G-60)
3V0X2-STILL PHOTOGRAPHIC (G-43)

These seem like possibly good "typical" INTP jobs. But as Bugeater suggested, we aren't all the same and I think it is a bad idea to box yourself into the INTP stereotype. Pararescue sounds cool.

[Chief]

Ty for the replies,...
I narrowed it down to bioenviromental engineering, engineering, imagery analysis, pharmacy and the ones listed above... I don't like med lab, or any of those other medical fields because the job descriptions seem too rountine for me.. like a nurse. I like to do research, design, analyze, scheme :) , etc... I can't stand doing the same thing over and over again.

[Bugeater]

I would think most military jobs would be pretty routine. Probably why most INTPs choose other paths. Having said that, though...I've been thinking about joining the US Coast Guard, just to get away from everyone and everything for a while.

[Nighthawk]

I was an army officer for 9 years (13 years total military) and hated most of it. IMHO, INTP is a poor fit for the military. It was a supreme SJ world of form before function. In choosing the Air Force, you have definitely selected the most liveable of the five services. Their quality of life is arguably the best. They also place a bit more value on brainpower than most of the other services. One of the Army fields that caught my interest was Military Intelligence. They have all sorts of analytical positions that I found very interesting. Of course, the Air Force also has more engineering and electronics fields that the Army does not have ... and those might be of even greater interest to you.

Some of the good things I did pick up from the military were a strengthening of my "J", developing follow through and discipline, and pretty decent confidence/self-esteem. The educational benefits are pretty good too.

Best of luck to you.

[Promethean]

I would have to agree with much of what Nighthawk said. I've just completed ten years enlisted military, 5 years USMC and 5 Navy. There really is no good fit at all for and INTP. The military just doesn't have much of a place for thinkers. The Air Force is definately the best choice and that's where I would be if they would have alloud prior Marines a few years ago. I've worked a wide variety of jobs but my main mos/rates have been Signals Intelligence, Marksmanship Instructor, and Electronic Technician. My strong recomendation would be for the most technically demanding school you can get, usually electronics. Try to get something state of the art too if you can. The reason I recomend that is not so much that you'll like it better, but that you'll be with a much better class of people. That alone can make life far better. I've had to work with goons before, and no matter what the job is, it's hell that way. Good luck to you man.

[Nighthawk]

I've had to work with goons before, and no matter what the job is, it's hell that way.:rofl: ... yes, there certainly is some plant life in the armed forces. I remember the agony of working with (or for) it.

[PenguinHunter]

The military just doesn't have much of a place for thinkers.

Ha! zing!

[Nighthawk]

The military just doesn't have much of a place for thinkers.


Ha! zing!When I was a young captain, I used linear regression to forecast how much tank ammunition we would need for a gunnery exercise. My boss, an SJ lieutenant colonel, ripped me a new one for using "unapproved methods" and told me to "go by the book." We ran out of ammunition 2/3 of the way through the exercise. Of course, that was all my fault too.

[garak]

When I was a young captain, I used linear regression to forecast how much tank ammunition we would need for a gunnery exercise. My boss, an SJ lieutenant colonel, ripped me a new one for using "unapproved methods" and told me to "go by the book." We ran out of ammunition 2/3 of the way through the exercise. Of course, that was all my fault too.
:D

"No excuses"

[Nighthawk]

:D

"No excuses"
That pretty much sums it up.

[Madrigal]

I just found out that am an INTP :) Am leaving for the U.S. Air Force in about 4 days. Am under the "General" job category and will have to choose a job during BMT (boot camp). http://usmilitary.about.com/od/airforceenlistedjobs/a/afjobgen.htm
Listing of the jobs.
First off, am actually very happy am an INTP. Most descriptions are very accurate. I could never hold a steady job, and already been through 4-5 jobs within my first year at college.

Basically, I just want opinions of fellow INTPs about which career they would choose in the same category, and why they would choose that. :whistle:
Because right now, am kinda uncertain what I would like to do in the Air Force. And am thinking, maybe, people of the same personality type can help me narrow down jobs.

Thank you. :)

Who the fuck are you? Congratulations for your supposed adventure into the US Airforce, I hope you feel good about killing babies.

Your little trick is so pathetically lame and obvious. Is this what the airforce does these days? Lurk around forums and post links to army websites? You think people are not aware of this shit?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GG14Ak01.html

PS: You suck.

[Vagabond]

Can we allow the guy to be in the army if he wants to without lynching him (and talk about it if he wants to)? You don't want to join the army, don't. Everyone in here has a mind to think for themselves.

Oh, welcome chief.

[panda]

Who the fuck are you? Congratulations for your supposed adventure into the US Airforce, I hope you feel good about killing babies.

Your little trick is so pathetically lame and obvious. Is this what the airforce does these days? Lurk around forums and post links to army websites? You think people are not aware of this shit?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GG14Ak01.html

PS: You suck.
Whoa, take it easy, Madrigal. It's irrational to assume that you know what his motivations are for posting. It's also irrational (and overly emotional) of you to equate "being in the military" with "killing babies".

[Madrigal]

Basically, I just want opinions of fellow INTPs about which career they would choose in the same category, and why they would choose that. :whistle:

Am I the only person that can read between the lines?

Sorry if I offended anyone else besides Mr. Chief. Yes, I do get furious about people claiming to be thinking of joining the US AirForce at a time when hundreds of young american men out there are dying in Iraq, and thousands of iraquis are being killed over a war that was built on pure lies.

Even if this person were actually just a poor guy that is out of his mind, and actually thinks, at this moment in time, that the US Airforce is some kind of career option (considering what it is doing right now) he would deserve no more respect from me than what I have shown. It's just a personal opinion.

But maybe you should check out that article I posted the link to, and see for yourself how desparate the US military is for young american blood.

[Nighthawk]

It's a different mindset Madrigal. I understand where both you and Chief are coming from. Having been on both sides of the fence, I can say that there are noble people in the military ... even if I don't agree with everything the military does. There are some people with good conscience in the military who actually prevent some of the killing going on. I knew one young troop commander who stopped his entire unit dead in its tracks in the middle of an advance ... rather than risk accidentally running over some Bedouin children who had run across the path to see the tanks.

It is possible to be kind and intelligent ... and be a soldier. I would hope we get more of those types of people in the ranks, as they can mitigate some of the damage our politicians have already done.

I agree with the article you linked. The meat grinder is looking for fresh meat ... and it targets young people because many are still naive and do not have world experience yet. It is much harder to get a 30-year-old excited about the prospect of doing battle ... and virtually impossible to do it for a 40-year-old. I'm very surprised that it has not come to a draft yet. I am amazed at how much the military has lowered its standards now. When I was in uniform, they would not even look at anybody without a high school diploma or people who had criminal records. Now it looks like we might be back to the old Vietnam ways of jail or military. I doubt we will be getting many kind and intelligent soldiers that way.

While I don't think Chief is an undercover recruiter, I don't put it past the recruiters to use this type of tactic. If they are indeed trying to use it here, they could not have found a more contrary target audience.

[mgb]

I think Madrigal deserves a high five on this one.

If you look at "Chief"'s posts to far they are pretty much all military related. And "How to beat an eye test?" That sounds a flaky too.

Seems like the job list posted might have just been something posted to get INTPs to look at it and maybe they'd find a job they like.

If that is what is happening, it's pretty much just SPAM and I think the Chief should be up for a ban. But I'm sure he'll have the opportunity to defend himself...any time now.

Although, funny enough, he's already violated the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy by putting his sexuality as straight. haa haa

[garak]

I'd be impressed if someone could actually "prove" the guy's intentions. I don't think anyone can. So let's stop jumping to pointless conclusions.



Even if this person were actually just a poor guy that is out of his mind, and actually thinks, at this moment in time, that the US Airforce is some kind of career option (considering what it is doing right now) he would deserve no more respect from me than what I have shown. It's just a personal opinion.
How young do you retire in the military? And how young do you retire as a civilian? Can you count on your civilian retirement plan panning out?

What are the odds of being killed or even wounded in the Air Force, even at this time? I would guess they're fairly slim, especially when your specialty has you staring at a computer all day long. Just a guess though.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going into the military. But don't be a zealot. It's really annoying.

[coffeezombie]

The guy wants to join the Air Force and is interested in what field an INTP should choose. I don't see any kind of evidence trying to convince other INTPs to join. Besides, INTPs aren't the type to do something just because somebody else is doing it, anyway. Perhaps if Chief's posts continue and he tells us how much fun he is having in basic training, then I will start getting suspicious. :P

[Nighthawk]

How young do you retire in the military?
As young as age 37, if you enlisted at age 17 ... with 50% pay and full medical. At age 47 with 75% pay and full medical. If I had remained in, I would have been able to retire two years ago.



And how young do you retire as a civilian?
I'll let you know when I get there somewhere between ... say ... age 65 and death.



Can you count on your civilian retirement plan panning out?
What civilian retirement plan?

[mgb]

The guy wants to join the Air Force and is interested in what field an INTP should choose. I don't see any kind of evidence trying to convince other INTPs to join. Besides, INTPs aren't the type to do something just because somebody else is doing it, anyway. Perhaps if Chief's posts continue and he tells us how much fun he is having in basic training, then I will start getting suspicious. :P

I think Madrigal is using her noggin.

The plan is pretty underhanded, but could work. A job list and some encouragment to look at it, might give someone who is let's say more impressionable the idea that there are some cool jobs that someone of a certain personality type might like doing.

I don't think it's meant to get people to do something because everyone is doing it, but just stir up some interest that wasn't there to begin with...then maybe have some PM's now and then to help with the recruiting.

If you combine this thread with the other one about just enlisting instead of becoming an officer, told in the first person, it starts to get a little suspicious. Plus it's all this person talks about.

[Vagabond]

I think Madrigal is using her noggin.

The plan is pretty underhanded, but could work. A job list and some encouragment to look at it, might give someone who is let's say more impressionable the idea that there are some cool jobs that someone of a certain personality type might like doing.

I don't think it's meant to get people to do something because everyone is doing it, but just stir up some interest that wasn't there to begin with...then maybe have some PM's now and then to help with the recruiting.

If you combine this thread with the other one about just enlisting instead of becoming an officer, told in the first person, it starts to get a little suspicious. Plus it's all this person talks about. Assuming you are right, which I personally doubt... so what. Since when do we need an overly protective environment in here? This reminds me of mothers that put their hands over their kids' ears whenever someone says the word "fuck". Only in here we are not kids. If chief wanted to present the army career option and do so in a non-annoying, non-pushy way, I have no problem with that, even though I don't like the military (as in general) either. Like I said, we all have minds to decide for ourselves if it is a right or a wrong decision to join, let's not flatter ourselves and think we are so much smarter than anyone else in here that we have to be heir moms. I agree with garak, I find zealots way more annoying than advertising that is so subtle and indirect, that only you and madrigal from an entire board can recognise as such.

[melancholeric]

even though I don't like the military (as a general) either.
You're a general and don't like the military?




I'm terribly sorry, I really am...

[Vagabond]

You're a general and don't like the military?




I'm terribly sorry, I really am... Edited. ;P

[mgb]

Assuming you are right, which I personally doubt... so what. Since when do we need an overly protective environment in here? This reminds me of mothers that put their hands over their kids' ears whenever someone says the word "fuck". Only in here we are not kids. If chief wanted to present the army career option and do so in a non-annoying, non-pushy way, I have no problem with that, even though I don't like the military (as in general) either. Like I said, we all have minds to decide for ourselves if it is a right or a wrong decision to join, let's not flatter ourselves and think we are so much smarter than anyone else in here that we have to be heir moms. I agree with garak, I find zealots way more annoying than advertising that is so subtle and indirect, that only you and madrigal from an entire board can recognise as such.

What is spam then? Is advertising on here ok as long as it it's non-annoying and non-pushy? If that's the case I have a ton of stuff I want to sell.

I'm more than happy to let Chief defend the posts, by all means, but if he is whom he's thought to be, you essentially have a government agent monitoring the contents of a website and crafting an advertisment to suit the audience. I might find that to be incredibly more condescening than you do, not to mention underhanded, but hey that's just me.

As for Madrigal and I being able to see this plot, well I can't take any credit. If it's true, she saw right through it and I am just agreeing with her.

And on the off chance you are upset because this applies to American's only, I'm sure the Greek Air Force is looking too ;)

[Vagabond]

What is spam then? Is advertising on here ok as long as it it's non-annoying and non-pushy? If that's the case I have a ton of stuff I want to sell.

I'm more than happy to let Chief defend the posts, by all means, but if he is whom he's thought to be, you essentially have a government agent monitoring the contents of a website and crafting an advertisment to suit the audience. I might find that to be incredibly more condescening than you do, not to mention underhanded, but hey that's just me.

As for Madrigal and I being able to see this plot, well I can't take any credit. If it's true, she saw right through it and I am just agreeing with her.

And on the off chance you are upset because this applies to American's only, I'm sure the Greek Air Force is looking too ;) To me it would be annoying if it was just advertising that didn't leave space for discussion. Otherwise, every religious or anti-religious thread can be considered as proselytising, any mention to how good a movie/book/gadget is can also be considered as spam etc. I see no problem with throwing an idea on the table for discussion, even if it is an idea I disagree with... you can't persuade someone to join the military unless they a) want to anyway, or b) are completely stupid with no thinking capacity. Nothing wrong with the first one, and I don't think the second one applies.

As for the greek air force piece of humour... well I don't even need to comment on it, I am sure you can hear in your head anything I would have to say on it.

[coffeezombie]

If I'm a high-ranking member of the Communist Party and I post something about whether I should be a Communist or not and left a link for people to click, I don't think I'd be getting the same reaction from Madrigal for some reason. :rolleyes2

[mgb]

To me it would be annoying if it was just advertising that didn't leave space for discussion. Otherwise, every religious or anti-religious thread can be considered as proselytising, any mention to how good a movie/book/gadget is can also be considered as spam etc. I see no problem with throwing an idea on the table for discussion, even if it is an idea I disagree with... you can't persuade someone to join the military unless they a) want to anyway, or b) are completely stupid with no thinking capacity. Nothing wrong with the first one, and I don't think the second one applies.

As for the greek air force piece of humour... well I don't even need to comment on it, I am sure you can hear in your head anything I would have to say on it.

But there is a huge difference between someone saying, "Hey I like this movie go see it," and "Hey, I was helping make this movie, it's awesome, I am an INTP and I really liked, oh and by the way I helped make it." One is a recommendation, the other is a subversive advertising campaign.

Seriously, this place isn't a newspaper. It's a good way to think about laying out forums in a sense, but they've cleverly left out advertisements and a classified section.

Also, if it is advertisements, the government is taking up server space (I know not much, but still some) on a private server for the purpose of recruiting new people. The same government that spends millions on recruiting people, but they should expect to get a free ride here because they've altered the delivery of their message?

This isn't about ideas Vagabond, at least in my opinion, it's about a governement spying on and using a private space to recruit people who most certainly be sent off to war.

I'm all for someone coming on here and asking whether or not they should join the military. Fair enough. I'm not sure that is happening here. I think this is just a plain and simple advertising campaign, orchestrated and executed by the US Military.

[Vagabond]

So if I say I am an INTP and I really loved X movie, it is so INTPish and you should watch it to see what I mean and I didn't help making it for all you know, that's just a friendly advice, because you take it for granted I don't work for the company that did the shooting? On the other hand, if I create a super-original device that I intend to go commercial with, I can't let you people know, because I am spamming? Give me a break. I am not putting my hand in your pockets to take your money and force you to buy my super-computer (whatever), just like no one forces you to enlist. Not even to mention that until the "accusations" against chief are proven, they are pure fiction.

[coffeezombie]

So let me get this straight, Mg. You have no problem with me writing

I think you should all join the Armed Forces! It sounds like a lot of fun!
U.S. Army (http://www.army.mil)
U.S. Navy (http://www.navy.mil)
U.S. Air Force (http://www.af.mil)
U.S. Marines (http://www.usmc.mil)

as long as I am not a recruiter myself? If you do have a problem, then you have a problem with every single person who comes on here and says that a movie they saw or a book that they read was good.

[mgb]

So let me get this straight, Mg. You have no problem with me writing

I think you should all join the Armed Forces! It sounds like a lot of fun!
U.S. Army (http://www.army.mil)
U.S. Navy (http://www.navy.mil)
U.S. Air Force (http://www.af.mil)
U.S. Marines (http://www.usmc.mil)

as long as I am not a recruiter myself? If you do have a problem, then you have a problem with every single person who comes on here and says that a movie they saw or a book that they read was good.

No I wouldn't have a problem with that because obviously if you did that there would be some room for debate about the quality of fun someone would have in the armed forces. And that's the main reason I suppose I wouldn't have a problem with it, because there would be some room for debate.

Let's change it from Air Force just to kind of prove a point. Say someone came on here and said they were an INTP. Say they just went on about how they were thinking of buying a Dodge, just not sure which one, but provided a list of all them. The list compared speed, features/gadgets and practicality of each car, but you tell them which one they should get. Then they start another thread about financing somewhere else about how they want to get a car but have kind of bad credit but think they can get around that by leasing or something.

What the person doing in that scenerio is getting the members of INTP Central to check out the cars and essentially sell them back to the salesperson. If you've ever been a sales person you'll know that as soon as someone is selling something back to you, they are ready to buy. So then they check out the financing page and realize that maybe they too could afford a Dodge with all the low financing rates and employee pricing.

To me, that is nothing but an advertising campaign, using the relative intimacy of forums to pedal your wares. Personally, I'm not ok with that. But if everyone else is fine with it, I definitely have some stuff to sell. I'd be happy to be as underhanded about selling them as you feel is necessary as well.

And if this Chief has no intention on truly being a member of this forum, their only reason for being here is to try and recruit people for the Air Force, then that would pretty much be the definition of spam.

[mgb]

So if I say I am an INTP and I really loved X movie, it is so INTPish and you should watch it to see what I mean and I didn't help making it for all you know, that's just a friendly advice, because you take it for granted I don't work for the company that did the shooting? On the other hand, if I create a super-original device that I intend to go commercial with, I can't let you people know, because I am spamming? Give me a break. I am not putting my hand in your pockets to take your money and force you to buy my super-computer (whatever), just like no one forces you to enlist. Not even to mention that until the "accusations" against chief are proven, they are pure fiction.

How come you put and "On the other hand" in your post and made your second example drastically different from the first?

You could let people know if you created the device, I'm just not sure it would be appropriate to start collecting credit card information from people who want to buy the device.

I also think to some extent this has to be done on a subjective basis. Vagabond, you have a ton of posts, if you told everyone about something you'd invented it would probably be assumed that you weren't trying to sell it here, just excited about what happened, in a blog kind of way. If your first posts, and every post after that had been about your invention, I doubt you'd still be here today. And if I got a job for a movie studio and suddenly all my posts were telling people what movie to watch, I think my days would be numbered as well, if for no other reason than everyone putting me on ignore because that's all I talked about. Subjective.

I think in this case, we've got ourselves a one trick pony. Maybe I'm wrong, but it sure looks like it so far.

[Architectonic]

I think you should all join the Armed Forces! It sounds like a lot of fun!

But I'd never pass the medical. :p

[Nighthawk]

But I'd never pass the medical. http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/alttongue.gifWhy not? They're making all kinds of allowances nowadays. http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Bugeater]

I think in this case, we've got ourselves a one trick pony. Maybe I'm wrong, but it sure looks like it so far.
I might agree, if Chief had more than six posts. Plus, he's not even trying to get others to join, but rather...he's asking former/prospective military INTPs for advice. Unless you have proof, you're just jumping on his case for nothing.

[mgb]

I might agree, if Chief had more than six posts. Plus, he's not even trying to get others to join, but rather...he's asking former/prospective military INTPs for advice. Unless you have proof, you're just jumping on his case for nothing.

Time will tell I suppose. Or the admins could trace his IP.

[MacGuffin]

Time will tell I suppose. Or the admins could trace his IP.Well it's not govt., unless BellSouth is a C.I.A. front.

Which is possible. :ph34r:

[YardGnome]

And IF this Chief has no intention on truly being a member of this forum, their only reason for being here is to try and recruit people for the Air Force, then that would pretty much be the definition of spam.

If being the keyword in that statement. You are condemning him without any proof whatsoever. Yes IF he is a recruiter, that would surely piss me off as well but there is no concrete evidence to prove it. Maybe he did intend on being a member of this forum, maybe he was looking for advice, maybe you all scared him away (which is why he hasn't posted anything since...)

Or maybe he was a recruiter... regardless neither can be proved as of now and I think he should have been given the benefit of the doubt

[garak]

This isn't about ideas Vagabond, at least in my opinion, it's about a governement spying on and using a private space to recruit people who most certainly be sent off to war.

Spying? Private space? You must have a different definition of private than I do. Any layman can "spy" on you by typing mgbradsh into google.


I'm all for someone coming on here and asking whether or not they should join the military. Fair enough. I'm not sure that is happening here. I think this is just a plain and simple advertising campaign, orchestrated and executed by the US Military.
Like I said before, have fun proving it. The hostname was about as close as you might get, and it turned up inconclusive (bell south). How do you plan on "proving" that he's some covert recruiter? And if you can't, then why are you shitting on a new guy's reputation and cluttering up the forum with senseless arguing?

[mgb]

Spying? Private space? You must have a different definition of private than I do. Any layman can "spy" on you by typing mgbradsh into google.


Like I said before, have fun proving it. The hostname was about as close as you might get, and it turned up inconclusive (bell south). How do you plan on "proving" that he's some covert recruiter? And if you can't, then why are you shitting on a new guy's reputation and cluttering up the forum with senseless arguing?

All we do is clutter up the forum with senseless arguing.

As far as this being a private space, someone is paying to run it. It isn't the government.

So either you don't care that Chief is "selling" something, or you do. Then you might care what Chief is selling. I care more about the fact that something is being sold than what is being sold, some might argue with that.

On the other hand, maybe Chief is just some poor soul trying to join the Air Force. Fair enough, my eyes are open. But in the context of Madrigal's article, Chief's posts so far, the current war in Iraq and the recruiting trouble all branches the armed forces are having, it seems suspicious to me.

And dump on a new person. Give me a break garak. That happens every other day here. When did you get to be the new member champion? And as far as Chief goes, I don't really care, it's more the issue at hand I'm writing about than a specific member. We're an inquisitive bunch not prone to just taking things a face value and sometimes we even make conclusions about people or things not solely based on what our senses are telling us.

[garak]

All we do is clutter up the forum with senseless arguing.
Most arguing here isn't senseless. Demonizing a guy based on shaky assumptions is pretty senseless.


As far as this being a private space, someone is paying to run it. It isn't the government.
Same goes for a shopping mall, but that's a public place.


So either you don't care that Chief is "selling" something, or you do. Then you might care what Chief is selling. I care more about the fact that something is being sold than what is being sold, some might argue with that.
Nothing's necessarily even being sold; you're jumping to conclusions.


On the other hand, maybe Chief is just some poor soul trying to join the Air Force. Fair enough, my eyes are open. But in the context of Madrigal's article, Chief's posts so far, the current war in Iraq and the recruiting trouble all branches the armed forces are having, it seems suspicious to me.
I am suspicious myself. But I don't think attacking otherwise nice people based on suspicion alone is very cool.


And dump on a new person. Give me a break garak. That happens every other day here. When did you get to be the new member champion? And as far as Chief goes, I don't really care, it's more the issue at hand I'm writing about than a specific member. We're an inquisitive bunch not prone to just taking things a face value and sometimes we even make conclusions about people or things not solely based on what our senses are telling us.
Oh I'll gladly be an asshole to a new person, if I don't like them for some reason. But what's there not to like about Chief? He's posted friendly requests for comments and hasn't done anything overly idiotic. I just think it's rude to attack the guy in his own thread based on nothing but some similarities to some obscure phenomenon. Even at a place like INTP Central we still manage to have a number of current and ex-military people, and I can say I've considered it myself at many points in the past. It's not like the premise of this thread isn't likely to be legit.

[CoHo]

Hrm... I don't think this is spam...

The only reason I say that is in order for something like this to be effective you'd have to do it on a large scale (lots of forums) I would expect more of a cookie cutter style posting that could be modified to support lots of different forum types ("Hey <adult men who wear diapers>, I'm a fellow <adult man who wears diapers> and was wondering what you thought about the U.S. Air Force")

*shrug*

It could still be from a recruiter, but acting on his own. I would expect something more formal if it was a government style tactic. Better writing, more links, big bald eagle picture as a signature.

[Bugeater]

Also, the USAF, along with the Navy, are actually trying to get people out of those branches and into the Army and Marines, as that's where they're not meeting the quotas.

[Architectonic]

Why not? They're making all kinds of allowances nowadays. http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

So the US now accepts foreign citizens with dodgy health? They must be getting desperate.

Australia is a little less desperate, recently there was a debate whether enlisted women should be sent to Afghanistan (http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2005/s1435558.htm).

[YardGnome]

So the US now accepts foreign citizens with dodgy health? They must be getting desperate.

Not neccesarily dodgy health, but people w/ illicit drug hobbies as well as people w/ criminal records.

[Madrigal]

Hi everyone, Hi Mgbradsh.

I haven't been around since my last post becase I've had a ton of work to do. Work still isn't over so I can't write much.

I see Chief hasn't returned yet. He probably will. When he reacts with offense/sarcasm/whatever, I won't be changing my mind about this. Obviously he won't come in here and say "you got me."

As Mg said, what made reach this conclusion is combination of both objective and subjective reasons.

The subjective, well, that's just my gut instinct. If I was wrong, he'll surely survive my accusations. If I was right, we'll never have the proof, but at least we started thinking about this situation for a moment.

The objective, you have read in the article I posted the link to. The few posts this person has made and how they are all military-related. The way he is asking recruitment questions such as 'what would you choose and why'. I don't think I'd be asking people what they would do out of such a broad range of categories, especially if I am an INTP -- they tend to think for themselves on these things. More specific questions would seem less suspicious. (And it doesn't sway me that he writes in an informal way, as this is the least he could do to sound credible.) It sounded like a recruitment tactic from the start. Maybe he is directly trying to get people to join, as has been suggested. Or maybe he wants to draw an outline of a typology and later use it to his benefit when recruiting, and we're part of his research. Any of those things is sneaky, in my opinion, because they hide the truth.

A debate on the legitimacy of advertising, be it explicit or implicit, started here. I don't mind people advertising their ideas as long as they aren't pretending to be doing something else. I have been involved in politics and I have 'advertised' my ideas, openly and directly, treating my listeners as equals, not idiots that can't handle straightforwardness.

As for the content of the advertising, I'm in my own right, as everyone else is, to react in whatever way I see fit. If I see someone advertising the US Airforce at this moment in history, I'm going to be very upset. I don't care if some people are not actually dropping bombs on babies. (I do thank Nighthawk for being so patient and kind, explaining how he could see both sides, I really appreciated it.) The future of US oppression in Iraq is on the line right now, and therefore the future of US political legitimacy on a world-wide scale. This war is the number one concern of the Bush administration, and the number one concern of it's military. Anyone joining now is going to get his hands very very dirty.

It's my opinion, I can state it angrily, coldly, calmly, passionately, sarcastically, jokingly, I can state my opinions in whatever way I want, accompanied by whatever feeling I have at the time. So, I shed tears when bombs started falling on Iraq, and now I read this and it makes my blood boil. Yes, I have feelings too, astonishing, isn't it? I could go out of my way to repress my emotions, and just coldly point out what I believe is suspicious, and still give him the benefit of the doubt. In that case I would still have been critisized for even bringing it up when I have no 'proof'.

I am not a troll just arbitrarily bashing people for nothing, I believe I had my reasons to react the way I did. As I said, I'm sure Chief will survive. If he actually was in the military, he would get worse shit than that from his superiors.

[Vagabond]

A debate on the legitimacy of advertising, be it explicit or implicit, started here. I don't mind people advertising their ideas as long as they aren't pretending to be doing something else. I have been involved in politics and I have 'advertised' my ideas, openly and directly, treating my listeners as equals, not idiots that can't handle straightforwardness. Okay, this begs for a question; if someone came on here, stated he was a recruiter for the US army and proceeded to advertising the advantages of joining, would you have no problem with it? Because that's what you just said. Personally, I have a hard time seeing how that would be less annoying than what chief did, but hey, that's just me.

As for the content of the advertising, I'm in my own right, as everyone else is, to react in whatever way I see fit. Sure. And everyone has the same right to react to your replies (not even going into the idea advertising) as they see fit. As everyone has the right to react as they see fit to mgbradsh's request to ban a new member just because you suspect him and he agrees.

It's my opinion, I can state it angrily, coldly, calmly, passionately, sarcastically, jokingly, I can state my opinions in whatever way I want, accompanied by whatever feeling I have at the time. Absolutely. Nobody tried to stop you, the comments made were simply opinions equally valid as yours.

So, I shed tears when bombs started falling on Iraq, and now I read this and it makes my blood boil. Yes, I have feelings too, astonishing, isn't it? Not really, we all do. Nobody commented on any possible emotional reaction in your posts, at least from what I have seen.

I could go out of my way to repress my emotions, and just coldly point out what I believe is suspicious, and still give him the benefit of the doubt. In that case I would still have been critisized for even bringing it up when I have no 'proof'. Yes, because you don't. Emotions have nothing to do with it.

If he actually was in the military, he would get worse shit than that from his superiors. And like everyone else on here I suspect, he would probably like this environment to be a place to relax and enjoy, not another SJ job environment. So if he has been discouraged from posting in the future, I won't be surprised, some people can be scared away. If he hasn't, I won't be surprised either. I am not a recruiter, but there is no way two people trashing me on my first four posts would scare me away from a place I found interesting.

And my personal opinion is, that taking the right of free speech away from the people that are conservative/military/war-loving/whatever in this time of history, is just as bad as it was for the western community to chase away and shut up the communists a few years back. It is just shutting the mouth of those whose opinions we find wrong or even horrible and creating an illusion of happy land. Discriminating against the faulty ones is still discriminating.

[mgb]

When did I say we should ban Chief? I said IF this is spam, Chief should be banned. More as a matter of protocol than a witch hunt.

I think people that drop into a forum advertising something and then leave should be banned. Nothing personal, I just don't think this place needs to get bombed with people selling life insurance and software, or military enlistment.

In that way, my ban suggesting has nothing to do with free speech, more to do with not having a ton of garbage all over the forum. And I don't think that's out of line with the rules of 99% of the other forums on the internet, let alone this one.

[Madrigal]

Okay, this begs for a question; if someone came on here, stated he was a recruiter for the US army and proceeded to advertising the advantages of joining, would you have no problem with it? Because that's what you just said. Personally, I have a hard time seeing how that would be less annoying than what chief did, but hey, that's just me.

Sorry, I thought I had been clear.

I think that advertising is wrong if it is the sole purpose for joining a forum, having complete disregard for the purpose of the forum. This is not something I commented on, exactly.

What I meant was that I agree with the advertising of ideas (hence my politics example) although maybe I should have called it proselytism?

In any case, what bothered me was what I suspect is an attempt to advertise the US military under the false disguise of an INTP that is choosing his future job. That is ONE thing I'm against.

Another thing I'm against is WHAT he was advertising, something which I oppose on a political and ethical level, hence the harsh reply. If it had been anyone coming in here selling watches, for example, I would probably not even take the time to answer him, despite the fact that it would irritate me a bit. Such people should be banned, that's all.

In Chief's case, I'm not saying he should or should not be banned. If I were the sole administrator of any forum, he would be banned. But that would be me. I have banned people from my forums on the sole basis of political orientation stated on their profiles. (Lets say a person is a nazi and I personally dislike nazis, for example.) Call it capricious, authoritarian, whatever. But I never suggested what to do about Chief.

I hope this has answered your questions.

[Vagabond]

I did not say you suggested we banned chief. I said mgbradsh did. He already clarified that.

Chief did not have the chance to demonstrate if his sole purpose was to advertise, I thought we already covered this.

You can call promoting your political and religious ideas proselytising or not, I couldn't care less. It is not the label but the essence that makes something annoying or interesting, and since opinions on what is annoying and what interesting vary, it has minimum importance. And I think you made it pretty much clear what you were against, no need to repeat yourself. Unless of course it makes you feel better, in which case suit yourself.

I only made one question, thanks for answering to that. To me, promoting a political and religious idea and promoting the military or any job is the same and has a difference than presenting either, so I guess we can only disagree on that.

[Madrigal]

I only made one question, thanks for answering to that. To me, promoting a political and religious idea and promoting the military or any job is the same and has a difference than presenting either, so I guess we can only disagree on that.

I don't disagree on that at all. (Except I don't understand, "has a difference than presenting either"). You see? You still don't understand me. For clarity's sake:

What we disagree on:

Chief is pretending to be what he is not.

(Edit: Try to resist the temptation of indulging in semantic games with this, as you know exactly what I mean, I am not refering to usual online persona/real life persona difference. I refer to lying, sneakiness and treating people like they're too naive to see through it, all for the purpose of a cause I think is perverse. All of which offend me. Thanks.)

And anything else would be me repeating myself.

[SensEye]

Well this thread didn't turn out at all like what I expected from the title.

Regarding Madrigal's theory that Chief is a covert recruiter I can't resist adding my 2 cents.

At first blush, the theory seems implausible. In general, the notion of the military recruiting through internet boards seems a bit far fetched. The "Whoa..O..o" in the header implies the poster has at least a rudimentary knowledge of MBTI and understands we are an unusual breed. Given that, I would think he would know the expected return on investment of recruiting on an INTP board would be virtually zero. On the other hand, the military has been known to do things half assed (i.e. decide to attempt to recruit based on MBTI, but do no investigation on which MBTI types would be likely prospects).

It is somewhat suspicious he does not ask about the concept of joining the military in general, just on sub categories. However, if his decision is a done deal, which appears to be the case, this may explain. I have seen precedents where people who have already chosen a field of study (say computer programming or law) have come here asking for other INTPs in these career areas for further advice. Not so dissimilar from what Chief is doing.

In his one follow up, he appeared sincere enough. If he was a recruiter, one would expect something along the lines of "hey, if you think these choices are interesting, I can send you more information" or something along those lines. I saw no such behavior.

He said he was leaving 4 days from his original post, which probably explains the lack of further follow up. Madrigal's in your face reply would certainly provoke a response from any self respecting INTP.

Based on the evidence I have seen, my opinion is that Madrigal's 'gut instincts' have led her astray in this instance.

[garak]

Also, as far as I know, individual recruiters have a quota to meet. If he was doing this in hopes of meeting his own quota, he'd have to somehow make sure that he got credited with the signup. Meaning he'd have to reveal his true intentions to anyone that decided to spontaneously sign up. Which probably wouldn't go over too well with an INTP. And as far as I can imagine, a recruiter has to actually be the one to sign a person up to get credited for it -- which I doubt would happen by convincing someone across the country to sign up.

[mgb]

Also, as far as I know, individual recruiters have a quota to meet. If he was doing this in hopes of meeting his own quota, he'd have to somehow make sure that he got credited with the signup. Meaning he'd have to reveal his true intentions to anyone that decided to spontaneously sign up. Which probably wouldn't go over too well with an INTP. And as far as I can imagine, a recruiter has to actually be the one to sign a person up to get credited for it -- which I doubt would happen by convincing someone across the country to sign up.

OK garak, fess up, you've got a little crush on Chief don't you? It's ok, don't be ashamed, I mean he laughed at your picture and everything. I understand.

[garak]

You got me!

[Chief]

Who the fuck are you? Congratulations for your supposed adventure into the US Airforce, I hope you feel good about killing babies.

Your little trick is so pathetically lame and obvious. Is this what the airforce does these days? Lurk around forums and post links to army websites? You think people are not aware of this shit?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GG14Ak01.html

PS: You suck.

Woah, :shock: I just came back from visiting my family, and I see how many replies my first post got. I am not a recruiter. Am a 19 year INTP who's interested in the Air Force, that's basically it.

[YardGnome]

Woah, :shock: I just came back from visiting my family, and I see how many replies my first post got. I am not a recruiter. Am a 19 year INTP who's interested in the Air Force, that's basically it.

Great first post, get a load of the controversy you are responsible for!

WOOT!

[coffeezombie]

Woah, :shock: I just came back from visiting my family, and I see how many replies my first post got. I am not a recruiter. Am a 19 year INTP who's interested in the Air Force, that's basically it.
lol Welcome to the board, Chief. I imagine some people here just have a hard time understanding why an INTP would actually want to join the military, so much so that they are willing to believe anything.

[Nighthawk]

I imagine some people here just have a hard time understanding why an INTP would actually want to join the military, so much so that they are willing to believe anything.
I still have a hard time understanding why I devoted (wasted?) 13 years of my life to it.

[Chief]

lol Welcome to the board, Chief. I imagine some people here just have a hard time understanding why an INTP would actually want to join the military, so much so that they are willing to believe anything.

Thanks coffeezombie :)

Ever since I was an middle school I been interested in the military. I love the benefits and the fact that I could retire in 20 years . :) Anyways, enuff about the military-related stuff. Let me give you guys a bio of me.

Ever since I was a kid, I love to go fishing, play baseball, basketball, tennis, street hockey, anything requiring physical endurance, with my closely tight pack of friends. As soon as they started moving away. I found myself in a phase of just playing lots of games, especially computer games. Counterstrike, Warcraft, Starcraft, etc... Its like I turned into a geek :lol:

But when I got into high school, I joined the JROTC, basically had lots of fun with others. It was awesome. I started to get back to my old self, where I did a lot of physical activities, socializing, etc.. with, again, a closely tight pack of friends. I love thinking/daydreaming. I always had to have my "alone time." This is where I would just sit and think about stuff, nothing in particular, whatever crossed my mind. Even though I didn't study much at school, I excelled in sciences and math, I sucked at english though, hence the grammar. :lol:

People would think I was depress when I have my "alone time." They felt bad for my, and would ask me, what's wrong or are you okay?? Most of the times I would just tell them am fine, just thinking. It takes A LOT to make me angry. I can't really remember a time where I was pissed off, I been upset a few times, but never pissed. I never like to argue about political views or issues with the world. I could care less, it didn't effect me in anyway. Most of the times when ppl talk about their opinions on the war, abortion, etc.. (for or against) I would just ignore them and not care. If I had to describe myself in one word... lol "Robocop" :lol:

[Chief]

To also add to my bio:

I am still a kid at heart. I love cartoons more than any other TV programs. Cartoons like "south park, King of the hill, family guy, etc..." As for beliefs, I don't like to be assoicated with any policital parties/religion. I rarely believe strongly in my beliefs. I like using logic (without interference between emotions) in nearly all I do. I rarely keep updated with the news, or anything happening in the world and I rarely show any facial signs of emotions. If there's one thing I believe strongly in, its science/math. (logic) I don't like to be involve in issues I have little concern over. Like what I said, am basically a Robot (RoboCop). :)

Also, you guys should check out the Chinese Zodaic and how it describes personalities based on birth. Am a tiger.. ROAR 8O

[Nighthawk]

Ever since I was an middle school I been interested in the military. I love the benefits and the fact that I could retire in 20 years . :)
That sounds a lot like me at that age.

[Elizabeth B]

For all those conspiracy theorists out there, let me tell you, if the Air Force wanted more people, they wouldn't target INTPs. They want more SJs, they tolerate Ns in their technical fields, and they are used to more SP pilots than they would like.

I once had a INTJ work for me, I enjoyed him but he gave a lot of the SJ leaders headaches. The Air Force mandates helmets on base when you ride a bicycle. He complied, but glued little plastic army men and dinosaurs all over his helmet. It was hilarious. He actually had done pretty well in the military, but some of the stupid policies drove him crazy. (OK, they annoyed me too. But I just let them roll off my back, and complied if I had to or ignored them if I didn't. He liked to make a statement.)

[Nighthawk]

For all those conspiracy theorists out there, let me tell you, if the Air Force wanted more people, they wouldn't target INTPs. They want more SJs, they tolerate Ns in their technical fields, and they are used to more SP pilots than they would like.

I once had a INTJ work for me, I enjoyed him but he gave a lot of the SJ leaders headaches. The Air Force mandates helmets on base when you ride a bicycle. He complied, but glued little plastic army men and dinosaurs all over his helmet. It was hilarious. He actually had done pretty well in the military, but some of the stupid policies drove him crazy. (OK, they annoyed me too. But I just let them roll off my back, and complied if I had to or ignored them if I didn't. He liked to make a statement.)
The Army is even more SJ oriented ... with a liberal sprinkling of extraverted SPs to go do the heavy duty fighting. Talk about idiotic rules ... there are literally thousands of manuals with millions of pages full of them. NTs are not tolerated very well in any of the branches. NFs probably even less.

[Elizabeth B]

The Army is even more SJ oriented ... with a liberal sprinkling of extraverted SPs to go do the heavy duty fighting. Talk about idiotic rules ... there are literally thousands of manuals with millions of pages full of them. NTs are not tolerated very well in any of the branches. NFs probably even less.

Any type that's a big F is either run out of the military or learns to hide their Fness (except in the medical field). This is especially true for males. My husband worked with the smartest guy I've ever met, a Rhodes Scholar, Academy grad, and a pilot. He was either INTP or INFP. We thought most likely INFP but hiding it. You'd be talking to him and he'd say something that sounded totally out of place. Ten or 15 minutes later, his point would make sense.