Shai Gar
11 Aug 2005, 02:19 PM
(21:37:13) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: yeah..
(21:37:19) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: Helios seems to think you're serious
(21:37:28) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: :P
(21:38:42) Shai' Gar : i am serious in one thing
(21:38:51) Shai' Gar : that women are not powerless
(21:39:21) Shai' Gar : and that all people are individuals, and gain their power as they go for it and try to keep it
(21:39:29) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: :P I agree with that
(21:39:34) Shai' Gar : :) aye
(21:39:48) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: but i don't agree that women have an equal amount of power at this point in time
(21:39:59) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: then again, i'm not sure that equality in any situation is possible
(21:40:30) Shai' Gar : i do not agree that we should look at the genders as anything other than with regards to sexuality
(21:40:39) Shai' Gar : people are all individuals
(21:40:56) Shai' Gar : condolezza rice has tremendous power, so does elizabeth
(21:41:18) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: yes, but if you look in generalities
(21:41:21) Shai' Gar : if these people felt truly about womens inequality they are in a position to DO something about it
(21:41:28) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: although it is possible for women to get great amounts of power
(21:41:33) Shai' Gar : if you look in generalities you are wrong by default
(21:41:36) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: they are not encouraged to do so
(21:41:40) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: unlike for men
(21:41:47) Shai' Gar : because people are not generalities
(21:41:59) Shai' Gar : and i've never been encouraged by those in power to get power
(21:42:24) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: ok, then in terms of specificities - muslim women, the millions of women who are forced to undergo FGM every year
(21:42:47) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: the women who under social pressure give up their jobs to stay home with the children
(21:43:07) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: women who are not seen as individuals, and are continually reminded that they are not individuals
(21:43:08) Shai' Gar : muslim women are free to choose their religion
(21:43:14) Shai' Gar : and their nation
(21:43:34) Shai' Gar : they could theoretically escape and live in freedom somewhere else
(21:43:38) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, they are not.
(21:43:46) Shai' Gar : yes, they are
(21:43:53) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: women who try to escape social norms get stoned to death
(21:44:02) Shai' Gar : my mother wasnt
(21:44:18) Shai' Gar : try to not speak in absolutes
(21:44:30) Shai' Gar : or your arguments are easy to destroy
(21:44:30) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: can you imagine, out of the 500mil muslim women in the world, if only 10% of them could choose to leave
(21:44:30) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: who could accept them?
(21:44:33) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: as in, which nation?
(21:44:51) Shai' Gar : what is a nation?
(21:45:00) Shai' Gar : looking at earth from space there is no such thing
(21:45:09) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: you are ignoring the realities of the world
(21:45:24) Shai' Gar : no, you are choosing to see the fantasies of the world as realities
(21:45:28) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: even though the theoretical idea of a nation is quite iffy
(21:45:31) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: in reality, it does exist
(21:45:36) Shai' Gar : no it does not
(21:46:14) Shai' Gar : for something to exist in reality, it must have physical properties
(21:46:22) Shai' Gar : nations are pure theory
(21:46:33) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: you are passing a judgment as "this is a fantasy from my POV" therefore, it cannot exist
(21:46:49) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: however, government, state, and justice organisations still exist
(21:46:59) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: even though theoretically they have no power
(21:47:03) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: in reality, they do
(21:47:15) Shai' Gar : no, i am passing judgment as "this does not have a physical property so i shall say that it does not exist"
(21:47:23) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: you could say that power is an illusion, and i would agree with you
(21:47:32) Shai' Gar : and in reality their only power exists at the end of their weapons
(21:47:42) Shai' Gar : and all people are able to build or obtain weapons
(21:47:59) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no.
(21:48:01) Shai' Gar : yes.
(21:48:14) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: you are still ignoring the fact that things such as weapons can be controlled
(21:48:25) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and that others have priorities, such as protecting their families
(21:48:34) Shai' Gar : not without the person who owns the weapon consenting
(21:48:54) Shai' Gar : john howard passed a gun law in 1997, my grandmother did not give up any of her weapons
(21:49:01) Shai' Gar : nor did i
(21:49:12) Shai' Gar : i do not recognise their power over me
(21:49:14) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: ok, look at it this way. In singapore, gun crimes are very very rare, because no one has such weapons
(21:49:18) Shai' Gar : therefore they have none
(21:49:29) Shai' Gar : they consented to give up their guns
(21:49:39) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: nope
(21:49:47) Shai' Gar : your example does not relate to your argument, only in your mind
(21:49:47) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: i did not consent to anything
(21:50:02) Shai' Gar : then you could make your own weapon
(21:50:08) Shai' Gar : and keep it
(21:50:19) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: it relates to my argument in that people do not necessarily choose their circumstances
(21:50:31) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and people also do not necessarily see weapons as a solution to problems
(21:50:37) Shai' Gar : the only rule of this planet is "your only rights are those you can take, and defend"
(21:50:52) Shai' Gar : again, that has nothing to do with governments having power over anyone
(21:50:59) Shai' Gar : people have their own power
(21:51:11) Shai' Gar : and power is always at the end of a weapon
(21:51:13) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: the only rule from your POV.
(21:51:23) Shai' Gar : what rule would you think exists
(21:51:23) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: again, from your POV
(21:51:35) Shai' Gar : without me destroying it of course
(21:51:36) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: I think there is no one way
(21:51:58) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and there should be equal opportunity for everyone, but people should try to keep the peace
(21:52:10) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: if possible, all weapons should be destroyed
(21:52:23) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: but that is under impossible and ideal circumstances
(21:52:37) Shai' Gar : there IS equal opportunity for everyone
(21:52:46) Shai' Gar : OPPORTUNITY
(21:52:59) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, there isn't
(21:53:03) Shai' Gar : yes, there is
(21:53:15) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: if you look at singapore, there was a quota for women entering medicine in the local university
(21:53:35) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: this was based on the argument that "most women doctors would get married, and waste the state's investment in them"
(21:53:40) Shai' Gar : there is still the opportunity to get into universities
(21:53:50) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: this is not equal opportunity
(21:53:50) Shai' Gar : into THAT university in fact
(21:54:28) Shai' Gar : remember my "mass i'm staying over at my sisters house until you come to your senses" thing?
(21:54:35) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: there is only one university in singapore handing out recognised medicine degrees
(21:54:42) Shai' Gar : if that happened in singapura people COULD get into universities
(21:54:52) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: hmmm? what's that about
(21:54:54) Shai' Gar : thus the opportunity exist
(21:55:11) Shai' Gar : every singapurian woman fleeing to australia for a few months holiday
(21:55:22) Shai' Gar : leaving the men at home to cope
(21:55:34) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: lol you think australia's immigration will allow that?
(21:55:37) Shai' Gar : the men could not, not in the society you describe
(21:55:49) Shai' Gar : yes, i think australia would allow it, under holiday visa
(21:55:49) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: realities, realities
(21:55:57) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: yes, the men could not
(21:56:07) Shai' Gar : therefore an opportunity exists
(21:56:10) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: not such a large number of people
(21:56:13) Shai' Gar : yes
(21:56:18) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and to coordinate all of this would be impossible
(21:56:18) Shai' Gar : exactly
(21:56:22) Shai' Gar : no it would not
(21:56:30) Shai' Gar : you are giving in FAR TOO EASILY
(21:56:42) Shai' Gar : which means you do not want that opportunity
(21:56:49) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, you are placing too much power with the individual
(21:56:57) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: which does not exist in singapore
(21:57:01) Shai' Gar : the only power that exists is within the individual
(21:57:06) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: seriously, having lived there for 18 years..
(21:57:12) Shai' Gar : the power of society is granted by the individual
(21:57:17) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: it is difficult to find someone with a sense of self out of ever 10 people
(21:57:44) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, people are conditioned to think that they are forever subservient to the needs of others
(21:57:48) Shai' Gar : excuse me, i need to write that down, this fury is giving me ideas
(21:57:48) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: i've spoken to many, many friends about this..
(21:57:56) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and they think that i place too much power with the individual
(21:57:59) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: so what does that tell you?
(21:58:13) Shai' Gar : that tells me that your friends are unable to think clearly
(21:58:20) Shai' Gar : do not think bad of that, not many people can
(21:58:30) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: i've given up trying to get people to realise that they are individuals
(21:58:40) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and these people are the "cream" of singapore
(21:58:47) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: so how about the rest?
(21:59:08) Shai' Gar : no they are only the CREAM if you allow them to be, in your MIND
(21:59:27) Shai' Gar : if you think of them as shit, then they are for you, the SHIT of singapura
(21:59:37) Shai' Gar : unless they are physically cream
(21:59:39) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, they are the cream as recognised by the government, and the education system
(21:59:49) Shai' Gar : these people have no power over you
(21:59:53) Shai' Gar : unless you grant them the power
(22:16:25) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: we are more a product of our environments than we realise
(22:16:41) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: i usually don't have anything clearly in my head
(22:16:47) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: maybe a few phrases here and there
(22:16:49) Shai' Gar : yes, but our environments can change easily with our whim
(22:16:56) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and a general haze
(22:17:07) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, i disagree about that
(22:17:31) Shai' Gar : well i absolutely agree with it
(22:17:34) Shai' Gar : :)
(22:17:57) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: there are many things that can't be controlled in life, e.g. illness, family, love
(22:18:15) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: however, where there is opportunity to do so, i am a control freak
(22:19:03) Shai' Gar : illness is not a part of our environment
(22:19:08) Shai' Gar : merely a symptom of it
(22:19:18) Shai' Gar : or as a part of our mortal condition
(22:19:42) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: yes, and so is vulnerability
(22:19:48) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: it is also part of being mortal
(22:19:49) Shai' Gar : and the power to kill
(22:20:01) Shai' Gar : and the power to move away
(22:20:20) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: I do not believe in killing
(22:20:42) Shai' Gar : whether you would personally do it or not, does not mean that you do not have the power to kill
(22:20:43) Shai' Gar : agree?
(22:20:52) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: i guess we have very different attitudes
(22:21:06) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, for me, i do not acknowledge that it is even a possibility
(22:21:19) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: I would rather die than go against my beliefs
(22:21:28) Shai' Gar : i would not willingly take a persons life, this is the ultimate in taking an individuals freedom
(22:21:40) Shai' Gar : but i acknowledge it as a very real possibility
(22:21:53) Shai' Gar : i could close my eyes for a few seconds while driving down the road
(22:21:56) Shai' Gar : and kill someone
(22:22:03) Shai' Gar : i have that power
(22:22:22) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: that is why I do not think I will ever drive
(22:22:32) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: I don't think I will even bother to get a license
(22:22:36) Shai' Gar : you could step on an ant
(22:22:40) Shai' Gar : you would kill that ant
(22:22:46) Shai' Gar : that is the power to kill
(22:22:52) Shai' Gar : slapping a mosquito
(22:22:54) Shai' Gar : killing it
(22:22:55) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: yes, but an ant is not sentient
(22:22:59) Shai' Gar : doesnt matter
(22:23:02) Shai' Gar : killing is killing
(22:23:07) Shai' Gar : and you have that powert
(22:23:10) Shai' Gar : -t
(22:23:17) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, it is different
(22:23:28) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: i would not eat beef if cows could think
(22:23:40) Shai' Gar : no it is not, just because they do not realise that they lost what they never understood does not mean that they did not lose it
(22:24:00) Shai' Gar : and cows can think
(22:24:15) Shai' Gar : but you mean sentience
(22:24:18) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: in the sense of sentience
(22:24:20) Shai' Gar : which is not the ability to think
(22:24:44) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: yeah
(22:24:53) Shai' Gar : you would willingly kill another being, but not kill something that knows that it exists
(22:24:59) Shai' Gar : even as an accident?
(22:25:10) Shai' Gar : the fact that you say that you WOULD not
(22:25:16) Shai' Gar : means that you POSSIBLY COULD
(22:25:26) Shai' Gar : it is a possibility
(22:25:27) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: yes, even as an accident
(22:25:35) Shai' Gar : everything is possible
(22:26:27) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: I will go all the way to prevent such a possibility
(22:26:27) Shai' Gar : and how do you know that an ant is not sentient?
(22:26:40) Shai' Gar : but that does not mean that you do not have that power
(22:26:56) Shai' Gar : you must recognise everything that you have, all of your powers, in order to control them
(22:26:57) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: I knew you would bring in that argument
(22:27:16) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and I would say that logically, that is not possible based on physiology
(22:27:47) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and I would say that I do not have the power to kill, still
(22:27:51) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: OH DAMN!
(22:28:16) Shai' Gar : what?
(22:28:40) Shai' Gar : do you know everything that there is to know about sentience?
(22:28:42) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: mid-stump but no ball
(22:28:49) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and before that dropped the wicket
(22:28:56) Shai' Gar : not even our most intelligent scientists know that
(22:29:00) Shai' Gar : and fuck :(
(22:29:11) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: GARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH
(22:29:42) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, about my knowing everything about sentience
(22:29:57) Shai' Gar : then how do you know that the ant network is not sentient?
(22:30:07) Shai' Gar : an ant is a single unit in the hive mind
(22:30:09) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: but what I know about it gives me an idea of the decisions that i can make
(22:30:21) Shai' Gar : the hive mind might be sentient
(22:30:38) Shai' Gar : yes, the decision not to kill does not preclude the power to kill
(22:30:39) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: neither the unit nor the mind is sentient
(22:30:50) Shai' Gar : if you can choose not to kill, it means you have the power to kill
(22:31:26) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: I conciously deny myself that power
(22:31:32) Shai' Gar : you cannot logically say that the hive mind is not sentient, because we do not have enough information about the hivemind
(22:31:35) Shai' Gar : no
(22:31:42) Shai' Gar : you deny yourself the USE of that power
(22:32:01) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, power is having that as an option
(22:32:12) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: if i deny that as an option to myself, i deny myself that "power"
(22:32:19) Shai' Gar : no
(22:32:25) Shai' Gar : power is the ability to do it
(22:32:54) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, for me, power is the option
(22:33:27) Shai' Gar : that is like saying
(22:33:33) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: which only goes to show how diverse people can be, even as far as definitions
(22:33:35) Shai' Gar : for me, a dog is a species of fish
(22:33:54) Shai' Gar : you can say it, doesnt make it true
(22:34:14) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no.
(22:34:21) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: that is how I define power
(22:34:34) Shai' Gar : then that is how i define dog
(22:34:37) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: governments have power because they have the option of formulating social policies
(22:34:49) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: take away that option and they have no power
(22:35:03) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: similarly, if I have the option of teaching, that is also power
(22:35:09) Shai' Gar : governments have no power that is not granted by the individual consensus
(22:35:20) Shai' Gar : or else no rebellion could ever suceed
(22:35:23) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: however, if people do not want to employ me as a teacher, even if I have the ability, I do not have the power to teach
(22:35:37) Shai' Gar : you have the ability to teach
(22:35:48) Shai' Gar : you do not have the ability to be paid for teaching
(22:35:57) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: Not true, you are looking at societies which are not heavily repressive
(22:36:23) Shai' Gar : i am looking at all societies
(22:36:23) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: uhhh... doesn't even that argument sound a little weird to you?
(22:36:34) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: not having the ability to be paid for teaching?
(22:36:37) Shai' Gar : nope
(22:36:44) Shai' Gar : it is a stronger definition
(22:36:47) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: you cannot control the options if people want to pay you or not
(22:36:52) Shai' Gar : and it was a stupid way of defining it
(22:37:14) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: ?
(22:37:28) Shai' Gar : perhaps i should have said "you have the ability to teach, however you do not have the ability to force others to pay you for teaching them"
(22:37:28) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: there are no "stupid" definitions
(22:37:33) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: only accurate or inaccurate
(22:37:34) Shai' Gar : there are so
(22:37:47) Shai' Gar : if a definition is inaccurate it is stupid
(22:38:08) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: going by your previously said arguments, no one has the ability to force anyone to do anything
(22:38:12) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: so no one has power
(22:38:17) Shai' Gar : ------------------------------------ do you mind if i borrow this entire thing for my LJ?
(22:38:22) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and power is an illusion
(22:38:32) Shai' Gar : power is indeed an illusion
(22:38:38) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: hmm, not at all, provided you take away my name and the brett lee thing
(22:38:41) Shai' Gar : therefore no government has power
(22:38:41) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: lol
(22:39:08) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and no individual has power either
(22:39:37) Shai' Gar : therefore power is only an idea
(22:40:18) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: yes, possibly
(22:40:28) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: based on value judgments
(22:40:37) Shai' Gar : and i go back to my previous statement of no society has the ability to make you do something that you do not want to do
(22:41:00) Shai' Gar : no, based only on physical force
(22:41:16) Shai' Gar : including vibrations at 40,000 gigahertz
(22:41:23) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: that is, you can "force" someone to do something, giving you power, if your values do not go against the means, and the other person values what you threaten more than what you are "forcing" them to do
(22:41:36) Shai' Gar : you can not force ANYONE to do anything
(22:42:02) Shai' Gar : if you held a gun to my head and said do this, or i will kill you
(22:42:22) Shai' Gar : i have the option of dying, knocking the gun from your hand, killing you, or complying
(22:42:28) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: you can, if what you threaten is valued by the other person as higher value than what they are reluctant to go against
(22:42:30) Shai' Gar : entirely my choice
(22:42:48) Shai' Gar : exactly, you must always give the choice
(22:43:00) Shai' Gar : an individual always has to choose
(21:37:19) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: Helios seems to think you're serious
(21:37:28) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: :P
(21:38:42) Shai' Gar : i am serious in one thing
(21:38:51) Shai' Gar : that women are not powerless
(21:39:21) Shai' Gar : and that all people are individuals, and gain their power as they go for it and try to keep it
(21:39:29) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: :P I agree with that
(21:39:34) Shai' Gar : :) aye
(21:39:48) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: but i don't agree that women have an equal amount of power at this point in time
(21:39:59) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: then again, i'm not sure that equality in any situation is possible
(21:40:30) Shai' Gar : i do not agree that we should look at the genders as anything other than with regards to sexuality
(21:40:39) Shai' Gar : people are all individuals
(21:40:56) Shai' Gar : condolezza rice has tremendous power, so does elizabeth
(21:41:18) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: yes, but if you look in generalities
(21:41:21) Shai' Gar : if these people felt truly about womens inequality they are in a position to DO something about it
(21:41:28) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: although it is possible for women to get great amounts of power
(21:41:33) Shai' Gar : if you look in generalities you are wrong by default
(21:41:36) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: they are not encouraged to do so
(21:41:40) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: unlike for men
(21:41:47) Shai' Gar : because people are not generalities
(21:41:59) Shai' Gar : and i've never been encouraged by those in power to get power
(21:42:24) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: ok, then in terms of specificities - muslim women, the millions of women who are forced to undergo FGM every year
(21:42:47) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: the women who under social pressure give up their jobs to stay home with the children
(21:43:07) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: women who are not seen as individuals, and are continually reminded that they are not individuals
(21:43:08) Shai' Gar : muslim women are free to choose their religion
(21:43:14) Shai' Gar : and their nation
(21:43:34) Shai' Gar : they could theoretically escape and live in freedom somewhere else
(21:43:38) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, they are not.
(21:43:46) Shai' Gar : yes, they are
(21:43:53) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: women who try to escape social norms get stoned to death
(21:44:02) Shai' Gar : my mother wasnt
(21:44:18) Shai' Gar : try to not speak in absolutes
(21:44:30) Shai' Gar : or your arguments are easy to destroy
(21:44:30) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: can you imagine, out of the 500mil muslim women in the world, if only 10% of them could choose to leave
(21:44:30) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: who could accept them?
(21:44:33) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: as in, which nation?
(21:44:51) Shai' Gar : what is a nation?
(21:45:00) Shai' Gar : looking at earth from space there is no such thing
(21:45:09) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: you are ignoring the realities of the world
(21:45:24) Shai' Gar : no, you are choosing to see the fantasies of the world as realities
(21:45:28) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: even though the theoretical idea of a nation is quite iffy
(21:45:31) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: in reality, it does exist
(21:45:36) Shai' Gar : no it does not
(21:46:14) Shai' Gar : for something to exist in reality, it must have physical properties
(21:46:22) Shai' Gar : nations are pure theory
(21:46:33) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: you are passing a judgment as "this is a fantasy from my POV" therefore, it cannot exist
(21:46:49) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: however, government, state, and justice organisations still exist
(21:46:59) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: even though theoretically they have no power
(21:47:03) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: in reality, they do
(21:47:15) Shai' Gar : no, i am passing judgment as "this does not have a physical property so i shall say that it does not exist"
(21:47:23) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: you could say that power is an illusion, and i would agree with you
(21:47:32) Shai' Gar : and in reality their only power exists at the end of their weapons
(21:47:42) Shai' Gar : and all people are able to build or obtain weapons
(21:47:59) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no.
(21:48:01) Shai' Gar : yes.
(21:48:14) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: you are still ignoring the fact that things such as weapons can be controlled
(21:48:25) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and that others have priorities, such as protecting their families
(21:48:34) Shai' Gar : not without the person who owns the weapon consenting
(21:48:54) Shai' Gar : john howard passed a gun law in 1997, my grandmother did not give up any of her weapons
(21:49:01) Shai' Gar : nor did i
(21:49:12) Shai' Gar : i do not recognise their power over me
(21:49:14) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: ok, look at it this way. In singapore, gun crimes are very very rare, because no one has such weapons
(21:49:18) Shai' Gar : therefore they have none
(21:49:29) Shai' Gar : they consented to give up their guns
(21:49:39) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: nope
(21:49:47) Shai' Gar : your example does not relate to your argument, only in your mind
(21:49:47) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: i did not consent to anything
(21:50:02) Shai' Gar : then you could make your own weapon
(21:50:08) Shai' Gar : and keep it
(21:50:19) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: it relates to my argument in that people do not necessarily choose their circumstances
(21:50:31) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and people also do not necessarily see weapons as a solution to problems
(21:50:37) Shai' Gar : the only rule of this planet is "your only rights are those you can take, and defend"
(21:50:52) Shai' Gar : again, that has nothing to do with governments having power over anyone
(21:50:59) Shai' Gar : people have their own power
(21:51:11) Shai' Gar : and power is always at the end of a weapon
(21:51:13) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: the only rule from your POV.
(21:51:23) Shai' Gar : what rule would you think exists
(21:51:23) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: again, from your POV
(21:51:35) Shai' Gar : without me destroying it of course
(21:51:36) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: I think there is no one way
(21:51:58) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and there should be equal opportunity for everyone, but people should try to keep the peace
(21:52:10) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: if possible, all weapons should be destroyed
(21:52:23) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: but that is under impossible and ideal circumstances
(21:52:37) Shai' Gar : there IS equal opportunity for everyone
(21:52:46) Shai' Gar : OPPORTUNITY
(21:52:59) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, there isn't
(21:53:03) Shai' Gar : yes, there is
(21:53:15) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: if you look at singapore, there was a quota for women entering medicine in the local university
(21:53:35) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: this was based on the argument that "most women doctors would get married, and waste the state's investment in them"
(21:53:40) Shai' Gar : there is still the opportunity to get into universities
(21:53:50) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: this is not equal opportunity
(21:53:50) Shai' Gar : into THAT university in fact
(21:54:28) Shai' Gar : remember my "mass i'm staying over at my sisters house until you come to your senses" thing?
(21:54:35) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: there is only one university in singapore handing out recognised medicine degrees
(21:54:42) Shai' Gar : if that happened in singapura people COULD get into universities
(21:54:52) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: hmmm? what's that about
(21:54:54) Shai' Gar : thus the opportunity exist
(21:55:11) Shai' Gar : every singapurian woman fleeing to australia for a few months holiday
(21:55:22) Shai' Gar : leaving the men at home to cope
(21:55:34) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: lol you think australia's immigration will allow that?
(21:55:37) Shai' Gar : the men could not, not in the society you describe
(21:55:49) Shai' Gar : yes, i think australia would allow it, under holiday visa
(21:55:49) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: realities, realities
(21:55:57) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: yes, the men could not
(21:56:07) Shai' Gar : therefore an opportunity exists
(21:56:10) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: not such a large number of people
(21:56:13) Shai' Gar : yes
(21:56:18) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and to coordinate all of this would be impossible
(21:56:18) Shai' Gar : exactly
(21:56:22) Shai' Gar : no it would not
(21:56:30) Shai' Gar : you are giving in FAR TOO EASILY
(21:56:42) Shai' Gar : which means you do not want that opportunity
(21:56:49) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, you are placing too much power with the individual
(21:56:57) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: which does not exist in singapore
(21:57:01) Shai' Gar : the only power that exists is within the individual
(21:57:06) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: seriously, having lived there for 18 years..
(21:57:12) Shai' Gar : the power of society is granted by the individual
(21:57:17) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: it is difficult to find someone with a sense of self out of ever 10 people
(21:57:44) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, people are conditioned to think that they are forever subservient to the needs of others
(21:57:48) Shai' Gar : excuse me, i need to write that down, this fury is giving me ideas
(21:57:48) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: i've spoken to many, many friends about this..
(21:57:56) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and they think that i place too much power with the individual
(21:57:59) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: so what does that tell you?
(21:58:13) Shai' Gar : that tells me that your friends are unable to think clearly
(21:58:20) Shai' Gar : do not think bad of that, not many people can
(21:58:30) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: i've given up trying to get people to realise that they are individuals
(21:58:40) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and these people are the "cream" of singapore
(21:58:47) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: so how about the rest?
(21:59:08) Shai' Gar : no they are only the CREAM if you allow them to be, in your MIND
(21:59:27) Shai' Gar : if you think of them as shit, then they are for you, the SHIT of singapura
(21:59:37) Shai' Gar : unless they are physically cream
(21:59:39) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, they are the cream as recognised by the government, and the education system
(21:59:49) Shai' Gar : these people have no power over you
(21:59:53) Shai' Gar : unless you grant them the power
(22:16:25) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: we are more a product of our environments than we realise
(22:16:41) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: i usually don't have anything clearly in my head
(22:16:47) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: maybe a few phrases here and there
(22:16:49) Shai' Gar : yes, but our environments can change easily with our whim
(22:16:56) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and a general haze
(22:17:07) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, i disagree about that
(22:17:31) Shai' Gar : well i absolutely agree with it
(22:17:34) Shai' Gar : :)
(22:17:57) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: there are many things that can't be controlled in life, e.g. illness, family, love
(22:18:15) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: however, where there is opportunity to do so, i am a control freak
(22:19:03) Shai' Gar : illness is not a part of our environment
(22:19:08) Shai' Gar : merely a symptom of it
(22:19:18) Shai' Gar : or as a part of our mortal condition
(22:19:42) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: yes, and so is vulnerability
(22:19:48) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: it is also part of being mortal
(22:19:49) Shai' Gar : and the power to kill
(22:20:01) Shai' Gar : and the power to move away
(22:20:20) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: I do not believe in killing
(22:20:42) Shai' Gar : whether you would personally do it or not, does not mean that you do not have the power to kill
(22:20:43) Shai' Gar : agree?
(22:20:52) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: i guess we have very different attitudes
(22:21:06) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, for me, i do not acknowledge that it is even a possibility
(22:21:19) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: I would rather die than go against my beliefs
(22:21:28) Shai' Gar : i would not willingly take a persons life, this is the ultimate in taking an individuals freedom
(22:21:40) Shai' Gar : but i acknowledge it as a very real possibility
(22:21:53) Shai' Gar : i could close my eyes for a few seconds while driving down the road
(22:21:56) Shai' Gar : and kill someone
(22:22:03) Shai' Gar : i have that power
(22:22:22) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: that is why I do not think I will ever drive
(22:22:32) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: I don't think I will even bother to get a license
(22:22:36) Shai' Gar : you could step on an ant
(22:22:40) Shai' Gar : you would kill that ant
(22:22:46) Shai' Gar : that is the power to kill
(22:22:52) Shai' Gar : slapping a mosquito
(22:22:54) Shai' Gar : killing it
(22:22:55) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: yes, but an ant is not sentient
(22:22:59) Shai' Gar : doesnt matter
(22:23:02) Shai' Gar : killing is killing
(22:23:07) Shai' Gar : and you have that powert
(22:23:10) Shai' Gar : -t
(22:23:17) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, it is different
(22:23:28) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: i would not eat beef if cows could think
(22:23:40) Shai' Gar : no it is not, just because they do not realise that they lost what they never understood does not mean that they did not lose it
(22:24:00) Shai' Gar : and cows can think
(22:24:15) Shai' Gar : but you mean sentience
(22:24:18) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: in the sense of sentience
(22:24:20) Shai' Gar : which is not the ability to think
(22:24:44) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: yeah
(22:24:53) Shai' Gar : you would willingly kill another being, but not kill something that knows that it exists
(22:24:59) Shai' Gar : even as an accident?
(22:25:10) Shai' Gar : the fact that you say that you WOULD not
(22:25:16) Shai' Gar : means that you POSSIBLY COULD
(22:25:26) Shai' Gar : it is a possibility
(22:25:27) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: yes, even as an accident
(22:25:35) Shai' Gar : everything is possible
(22:26:27) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: I will go all the way to prevent such a possibility
(22:26:27) Shai' Gar : and how do you know that an ant is not sentient?
(22:26:40) Shai' Gar : but that does not mean that you do not have that power
(22:26:56) Shai' Gar : you must recognise everything that you have, all of your powers, in order to control them
(22:26:57) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: I knew you would bring in that argument
(22:27:16) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and I would say that logically, that is not possible based on physiology
(22:27:47) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and I would say that I do not have the power to kill, still
(22:27:51) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: OH DAMN!
(22:28:16) Shai' Gar : what?
(22:28:40) Shai' Gar : do you know everything that there is to know about sentience?
(22:28:42) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: mid-stump but no ball
(22:28:49) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and before that dropped the wicket
(22:28:56) Shai' Gar : not even our most intelligent scientists know that
(22:29:00) Shai' Gar : and fuck :(
(22:29:11) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: GARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH
(22:29:42) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, about my knowing everything about sentience
(22:29:57) Shai' Gar : then how do you know that the ant network is not sentient?
(22:30:07) Shai' Gar : an ant is a single unit in the hive mind
(22:30:09) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: but what I know about it gives me an idea of the decisions that i can make
(22:30:21) Shai' Gar : the hive mind might be sentient
(22:30:38) Shai' Gar : yes, the decision not to kill does not preclude the power to kill
(22:30:39) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: neither the unit nor the mind is sentient
(22:30:50) Shai' Gar : if you can choose not to kill, it means you have the power to kill
(22:31:26) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: I conciously deny myself that power
(22:31:32) Shai' Gar : you cannot logically say that the hive mind is not sentient, because we do not have enough information about the hivemind
(22:31:35) Shai' Gar : no
(22:31:42) Shai' Gar : you deny yourself the USE of that power
(22:32:01) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, power is having that as an option
(22:32:12) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: if i deny that as an option to myself, i deny myself that "power"
(22:32:19) Shai' Gar : no
(22:32:25) Shai' Gar : power is the ability to do it
(22:32:54) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no, for me, power is the option
(22:33:27) Shai' Gar : that is like saying
(22:33:33) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: which only goes to show how diverse people can be, even as far as definitions
(22:33:35) Shai' Gar : for me, a dog is a species of fish
(22:33:54) Shai' Gar : you can say it, doesnt make it true
(22:34:14) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: no.
(22:34:21) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: that is how I define power
(22:34:34) Shai' Gar : then that is how i define dog
(22:34:37) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: governments have power because they have the option of formulating social policies
(22:34:49) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: take away that option and they have no power
(22:35:03) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: similarly, if I have the option of teaching, that is also power
(22:35:09) Shai' Gar : governments have no power that is not granted by the individual consensus
(22:35:20) Shai' Gar : or else no rebellion could ever suceed
(22:35:23) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: however, if people do not want to employ me as a teacher, even if I have the ability, I do not have the power to teach
(22:35:37) Shai' Gar : you have the ability to teach
(22:35:48) Shai' Gar : you do not have the ability to be paid for teaching
(22:35:57) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: Not true, you are looking at societies which are not heavily repressive
(22:36:23) Shai' Gar : i am looking at all societies
(22:36:23) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: uhhh... doesn't even that argument sound a little weird to you?
(22:36:34) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: not having the ability to be paid for teaching?
(22:36:37) Shai' Gar : nope
(22:36:44) Shai' Gar : it is a stronger definition
(22:36:47) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: you cannot control the options if people want to pay you or not
(22:36:52) Shai' Gar : and it was a stupid way of defining it
(22:37:14) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: ?
(22:37:28) Shai' Gar : perhaps i should have said "you have the ability to teach, however you do not have the ability to force others to pay you for teaching them"
(22:37:28) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: there are no "stupid" definitions
(22:37:33) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: only accurate or inaccurate
(22:37:34) Shai' Gar : there are so
(22:37:47) Shai' Gar : if a definition is inaccurate it is stupid
(22:38:08) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: going by your previously said arguments, no one has the ability to force anyone to do anything
(22:38:12) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: so no one has power
(22:38:17) Shai' Gar : ------------------------------------ do you mind if i borrow this entire thing for my LJ?
(22:38:22) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and power is an illusion
(22:38:32) Shai' Gar : power is indeed an illusion
(22:38:38) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: hmm, not at all, provided you take away my name and the brett lee thing
(22:38:41) Shai' Gar : therefore no government has power
(22:38:41) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: lol
(22:39:08) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: and no individual has power either
(22:39:37) Shai' Gar : therefore power is only an idea
(22:40:18) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: yes, possibly
(22:40:28) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: based on value judgments
(22:40:37) Shai' Gar : and i go back to my previous statement of no society has the ability to make you do something that you do not want to do
(22:41:00) Shai' Gar : no, based only on physical force
(22:41:16) Shai' Gar : including vibrations at 40,000 gigahertz
(22:41:23) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: that is, you can "force" someone to do something, giving you power, if your values do not go against the means, and the other person values what you threaten more than what you are "forcing" them to do
(22:41:36) Shai' Gar : you can not force ANYONE to do anything
(22:42:02) Shai' Gar : if you held a gun to my head and said do this, or i will kill you
(22:42:22) Shai' Gar : i have the option of dying, knocking the gun from your hand, killing you, or complying
(22:42:28) SOMEONEiLIKEaLOT: you can, if what you threaten is valued by the other person as higher value than what they are reluctant to go against
(22:42:30) Shai' Gar : entirely my choice
(22:42:48) Shai' Gar : exactly, you must always give the choice
(22:43:00) Shai' Gar : an individual always has to choose