Do We Possess Instinct?

[Johnny]

For me, if Jung's work is to be taken as useful, instinct must exist within us. Moreover, we must be born with it as we are born with chromosomes. Why? Because without instinct, Jung's work with Archetypes, his fascination and respect for mythology and religion, the notion that we possess an intuitive function to some degree in our psychological types, just to scratch the surface, become meaningless.

Instead of asking whether we do possess instincts to guide us, one could attack his work by asking whether it matters that we do possess instincts if we have the ability to consciously choose not to act on them (a version of the God-is-dead argument). It's an interesting question, but I want to reveal that I think Jung's real intention for instinct is to replace the word soul in our vocabulary and then build upon instinct as a psychological matter. It's important to know that Jung grew up in a religious household and wanted to keep this part of his life alive. Yes, motive does matter. So the thread title question is more interesting to me right now.

So, fellow INTP'ers, do we possess instinct as Jung describes?

[cloakable]

Yeah, I think we do, but I'm not sure if it is in the way Jung meant it (not having read any of his work, but it's on my to-do list)

[Google Monster]

I believe that all matter has the same drive which we can classify as instinct.

[Johnny]

In reflecting more on archetypes as a means of triggering particular sets of instincts, I got inspired by my thoughts on Laeskis' argument for God and realized there's another way to undermine Jung's idea of instinct:

What, if any, connection exists for archetypes and the real world. We're assuming that the archetypes within us actually serve the purpose for which they're designed. What if animals don't also exhibit archetypes at all, and that the choice of a particular instinct is made with respect to the world alone?

In this case, where would archetypes reveal anything but overactive imaginations, games with little to no value, and parodies?

[last_caress]

Of course we do.

[Johnny]

Of course we do.

A gamer... YES! :lol:

O.K., then, what of instincts?

[Jkrs]

Johnny: I've always connected the idea of archtypes to memetic theory. (It also neatly explains the variations in a symbol between cultures.)

[last_caress]

Of course we do.

A gamer... YES! :lol:

O.K., then, what of instincts?

Vestigial animal reflexes from the lower brain. Sexual attraction, fight or flight, herding, social hierarchy, dominance/submission, facial expression, laughter...
If a lion comes running at you from under the brush, you don't rationalize, you react.
The ones that dally don't procreate further.
Extrapolate forward.

[Johnny]

If a lion comes running at you from under the brush, you don't rationalize, you react.
The ones that dally don't procreate further.

Interesting, especially since my family hasn't been chased by a lion for ages. I might take some sort of reasoning to extrapolate a response to that after all...

[int]

I don't remember where, but another INTP once wrote that he/she was capable of the always correct natural reactions to emergencies. I remember thinking I could relate - and I was reminded of this true story:

About a 2 years ago a few of us came out of the bar and were walking east on Pearl street in Boulder. About 30 yards ahead of us a fight between a couple of drunk locals broke out and another 6 or 7 guys were just watching. I ran up and pulled the guy who was getting his ass kicked up onto his feet, dragging him out from under his opponent. Another guy saw what I was doing and pulled the bigger, obvious winner off - once he saw me in there. I pulled the "loser" down the street and the other peacemaker dragged the other, bigger fighter aside as well. I focused on my guy and just stared into the his eyes and made sure he was calm. Eventually, the flame in his eyes lessened and I let go of his arm. He hesitated for a second, looked right at me, then turned around and walked away.

I "woke up" once he was out of sight. I had never done anything like that before, and was about 50 lbs out of my element, but for some reason they actually listened to me. Once I realized what had just happened a wave of emotion came and went and made me hesitate for a couple seconds while we walked away. We then went back to having a good time.

I have no idea what happened to make me - a 150 lb scrawny little loner - split up a fight between a couple of guys twice my size, so I call it instinct. I've got a high 9 that may contribute, but all I know is I didn't decide to jump in, it just kinda happened.

[Johnny]

Would it not be that the archetypes are being triggered by instincts? Preferably, should not the archetypes be seen as filtered instincts: higher-level, unconscious interpretations reaching into consciousness?

Following my reasoning: the connection between the archetypes and reality comes through instincts, which in turn is an adaption to reality.



Well, according to Jung, archetypes are modes of apprehension, while instincts are modes of action, and both determine one another. My source is Jung's Instinct and the Unconscious, found in The Portable Jung.

I think your reasoning is closer to Jung's intentions than mine - that the archtypes are not intended to replace our experiences in the world, but are "templates", perhaps, that we sort through in order to determine which particular instinct is most appropriate for a particular experience.

But when I speculate on the nature of a primitive man as Jung does - one who, say, has not developed an ego that wars against the self and the collective unconscious to our extent, I find that instinct and archetype are akin to a computer program, where the program executes according to its code under the conditions for which the program requires and acknowledges...garbage in, garbage out...no morality, no God to struggle with for some logical proof, singing the James McMurtry song "Painting by Numbers" :lol: ...

So the dilemma still exists for archetypes, not only in where they exist within us as Jung speculates, but in their unchanging nature and their practicality for us as we live in the world today. Why? Because when the deer look at me while I'm driving in my car at night with the headlights on, paralyzed, unable to move, what archetype is reaching out to them, to compel them to stand still, to risk that I might run into them and kill them, and not get out of the way? What archetypes then speak to us in this way?

In other words, what value can we derive from instincts that are triggered by uncontrollable, unconscious archetypes that don't acknowledge changes in the world we experience? :sombrero:

*edit: In rereading your post, Hush, I think I may have misunderstood you. If you mean to say that archetypes were born of instincts, and I say that instincts are born of archetypes, then we are both right according to Jung. I'm challenging them through the modes, or purpose, Jung assigns to them.

[last_caress]

If a lion comes running at you from under the brush, you don't rationalize, you react.
The ones that dally don't procreate further.

Interesting, especially since my family hasn't been chased by a lion for ages. I might take some sort of reasoning to extrapolate a response to that after all...

Substitute any other adverse situation for "lion".

[Johnny]

If a lion comes running at you from under the brush, you don't rationalize, you react.
The ones that dally don't procreate further.

Interesting, especially since my family hasn't been chased by a lion for ages. I might take some sort of reasoning to extrapolate a response to that after all...

Substitute any other adverse situation for "lion".

O.K., then I'll make sure I get some training as well, just in case the lion comes back...

[Strephonade]

If a lion comes running at you from under the brush, you don't rationalize, you react.
The ones that dally don't procreate further.

Interesting, especially since my family hasn't been chased by a lion for ages. I might take some sort of reasoning to extrapolate a response to that after all...

Substitute any other adverse situation for "lion".


Maybe prehistoric INTPs (if personality types were as diverse then) devised better lion-traps, so to speak. ;) Yes, I can see him/her now, thinking perhaps, the lion can run faster than me, but not as fast as the antelope, cannot fly, and has to be within a certain distance...lion likes meat, and is always looking for it...create traps with meat as bait around certain perimeters, devise backup strategies like lion-catching pits, etc. Deploy hunters while setting up traps. Non-hunters can help you build traps. Lion becomes food, and extra food that lion does not eat is yours to hunt. Leave some lions to help you with future kills. And so on, and so forth.

[booyalab]

It's not apparent if, by 'instinct', it is meant 'intuition'.

[Johnny]

It's not apparent if, by 'instinct', it is meant 'intuition'.

I'm not completely clear on your point, but I'll take a shot and see if this is where you're coming from...

I understand that for Jung, instinct is a catalog of actions we take as unconscious, primitive beings devoid of rational attributes (e.g., a sea turtle comes to the shore, digs a hole and lays eggs). Intuition, however, is an irrational function that we differentiate into consciousness and use as a tool to both apprehend, and to some extent subjectively fashion, patterns and connections in either the world or our human selves.

Unless you are proposing to offer something beyond Jung's work or offer some personal insight here that "rocks the boat", it should be understood that intuition and instinct should not be confused and are only related in the sense that they exist within the human psyche as conscious (to the degree that an individual has honed this function for use) and unconscious mechanisms respectively.

Beyond this, please light a fuse as you see fit and let's see some fireworks! :sombrero:

[s]

I am a little unclear on Jung's views on instinct, but...

In my quest to be one of the surviving fittest, I have both fought and flew. However, if there was a lion after my ass, I would likely piss myself and become kitty chow (provided I was sans rifle). Instinct? Yea, but most of who I am is learned. The pissing on my self would be instinct, the rifle wielding would be learned. :rofl:


Of course... this is assuming I am not a superhero.

[Johnny]

I am a little unclear on Jung's views on instinct, but... :rofl:


:rofl:

Yes, though you may not be so clear on Jung's views as I like to think I am ( :lol: ), you're still emphasizing an important point. According to Jung our collectively inherited instincts (not to be confused with the things we have learned to the point of unconscious habit) are beyond our rational control and unknowable. We would simply act according to those instincts in spite of ourselves.

From this notion, Jung starts to dig into world religions, mythologies, astrology, and alchemy to discover what may lie within us and drive us to live our lives in some predetermined and high-level manner...

[booyalab]

OK, I know Jung differentiates between instinct and intuition...I just didn't know if the person who created the poll was differentiating, of course now that I look at the category (jung and mbti) I feel like I missed the obvious.

The way I see it, we can tell animals have instinct because regardless of the way an animal is raised it acts the same as other animals of it's species in a given circumstance. Off the top of my head I can't think of some behavior that can be expected in any person when in a given situation. We tend to choose our actions. If someone can think of a human reaction that is the same across the board (besides the cliched 'fight or flight' which is variable at best when manifested in humans) please enlighten me.

[s]

*sigh... good laugh*

OK, more serious this time and please correct me as needed.

Jung's Instincts:

1. Self or God, the instinct for order;

2. Mother, the clinging instinct;

3. Child or Adorable Little One, the protective instinct;

4. Shadows (both forms):

a. Friend - positive self-preservation via the herd instinct;

b. Enemy - negative self-preservation via the destructive instinct;

5. Anima/Animus, the reproductive instinct;

6. Persona, the instinct to conform socially;

7. Heroes, the instinct to excel and to lead;

8. Hunter, the instinct to pursue;

9. Transformation, the instinct for spiritual change.

Right? :huh:

[Johnny]

I understand your list to describe Jung's archetypes, rather than instinctual actions, and I want to be nitpicky about it to further the discussion of some issues I have with Jung's ideas. Beyond this, you're correct, I think.

[farmer_jon]

The concpet that personally intrigues me is not 'do we posses intincts' but 'can we control, or at least manipulate them'. I've got a vague inkling about some eastern philosophies that underline the importance of understanding ones feelings/instincts, but is it possible to take it another stage, is intervention or even prevention a possibility/? It would prove most helpful in certain social arenas, and maybe even allow INTP's to open up, as conceptualising the conversation wouldn't be necessary!!



They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

phillip larkin