What do you think america is

[headfonez]

a post directed to those that dont live in the united states: now what do you think america is?

[Zero Angel]

A country, that as a whole, is becoming more belligerent, nepotic, and poorly administered. Slowly driving itself into poverty, and war; because the administration is succeeding in accomplishing short-range goals with blatant disregard for the long term.

If they were a First Nation (Indian Nation) in Canada, they would have already went third-party (had their affairs and finances handled by an external agency.)

[headfonez]

how long do you think it will be "the superpower"?

[ApeTheDog]

America is talked about too often.

[headfonez]

why do you think america is talked about alot

[Zero Angel]

Probably for a very long time. America is practically invincible to invasion, and other countries *need* to trade with it to supplant their own income as much as the US's. Nobody can really do shit to the US, so they can be as belligerent as they want to be, that is until their allies dwindle down and the effects of the over spending and oil crisis take their toll. It may not be reduced to third-world due to its abundance of natural resources, but far more efficient nations will take the forefront as true world powers.

[ApeTheDog]

When was the last thread you saw on the forum that went "What do you think Switzerland is?"

[Zero Angel]

Switzerland is a bunch of punk ass bitches. I hate all nations, come to think of it.

[kendoiwan]

When was the last thread you saw on the forum that went "What do you think Switzerland is?"


*does best arrogant american voice* Cause the Swiss don't run shit...besides watches,hiding money, chocolate, and the alps, it's pretty slim pickings...

[ApeTheDog]

That's not because there isn't anything more to know about switzerland than that. It's because the cliché is all you care to know about them. There is a difference.

I know the only country that will ever be talked about in here is the USA, with potentially some Iraq thrown in there or another country that is somehow having trouble with the USA, but it'd still be nice if everybody from the USA learned a little something about other cultures too, and could make an effort to see things from our point of view for a change. Impossible, but nice.

[Zero Angel]

Cliches are all we really know about each other, I think. It's easier to critisize more contreversial nations because it has all the allure of gossip and 'concern' on a larger scale. Nobody cares about small, peaceful nations when tragedy is much more gripping.

[kendoiwan]

That's not because there isn't anything more to know about switzerland than that. It's because the cliché is all you care to know about them. There is a difference.

I know the only country that will ever be talked about in here is the USA, with potentially some Iraq thrown in there or another country that is somehow having trouble with the USA, but it'd still be nice if everybody from the USA learned a little something about other cultures too, and could make an effort to see things from our point of view for a change. Impossible, but nice.


Ape, Ape, I kid, i kid... But seriously, the fact is that the US is the single most dominant country in the world, it does beg a bit of attention... If you wish to enlighten the rest of us as to the wonders of Swiss civilization start a thread, if you post it they will come...

[mgb]

That's not because there isn't anything more to know about switzerland than that. It's because the cliché is all you care to know about them. There is a difference.


Aren't cliches the whole point of this thread?

[ApeTheDog]

Alright. The american cliché over here in europe: many americans are fat, stupid people who don't have any common sense. That's what 'the man in the street' will tell you americans are like.

What I personally think america is is just another country that is hyped a bit too much. The USA is exceptionally good at selling itself, and putting up an image, but when you poke beyond the surface you sometimes find very foul things. I think there's a bit too much show, and a bit too little content sometimes. And it hurts my brain when I see everybody swallowing the bullshit speeches and emo-trash that sometimes happen on tv, in political speeches, anywhere. And what the hell kind of manners is it to protest against people protesting the death penalty outside the courthouse? What the hell makes it okay to make a sign with 'fry the fucker' on it and then protest, and actually be proud and think you have something to say? That is, i'm afraid, typically american too. And those people protesting the gay people with 'you are going to hell, fag'? I can't believe that kind of behavior is normal over there.

[booyalab]

That's not because there isn't anything more to know about switzerland than that. It's because the cliché is all you care to know about them. There is a difference.

I know the only country that will ever be talked about in here is the USA, with potentially some Iraq thrown in there or another country that is somehow having trouble with the USA, but it'd still be nice if everybody from the USA learned a little something about other cultures too, and could make an effort to see things from our point of view for a change. Impossible, but nice.

Ok, so a person from any given country other than the US hears/talks about the US more than a given American talks about their specific country. How the hell does that prove that everyone else in the world is more educated about the world than I am. 1. Just because everyone always talks about the US doesn't mean they understand or have their facts straight. (many Afghan men STILL believe we went over there just to take all their gold)2. Just because I talk about the US a lot doesn't mean I have no interest in any other country. 3. Just because there's a lot to know about other countries doesn't mean all that information is useful or intrinsically meaningful.

[ApeTheDog]

Did I say that everybody else in the world is more educated than booyalab? Because I meanth to say that, I'm just not sure I managed to insinuate it enough. Did anybody else hear it?

It's simple. Because you all talk about the US a lot means I HAVE TO become interested in it if I want to talk about politics at all. But there are many other, more interesting countries to talk about that, because nobody from the USA knows anything about them (and I'm talking in general here. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, except maybe booyalab) it's pointless to bring up, since the majority of people here are from the USA.

Would things be the same on any other forum where the majority was a large demographic all from one or two neighbouring countries? YES! It's normal. But it's also normal not to like it if you're not a part of the 'team', is it?

[Jacque]

http://jitcrunch.cafepress.com/jitcrunch.aspx?bG9hZD1ibGFuayxibGFuazo1MF9GX28yLmpwZ3xsb2FkPUwwLGh0dHA6Ly96b29tLmNhZmVwcmVzcy5jb20vNy82MzIxMzE3X3pvb20uanBnfHxzY2FsZT1MMCwyODAsNDQwfGNvbXBvc2U9YmxhbmssTDAsQWRkLDEwMywyMnxsb2FkPW1hc2ssYmxhbms6NTBfRl9tYXNrX28yLmpwZ3xjb21wb3NlPWJsYW5rLG1hc2ssTWFzaywwLDB8Y3A9cmVzdWx0LGJsYW5rfHNjYWxlPXJlc3VsdCwwLDQ4MHxsb2FkPXNhbXBsZSxodHRwOi8vd3d3LmNhZmVwcmVzcy5jb20vY29udGVudC9nbG9iYWwvaW1nL3NhbXBsZV9jcnVuY2hfb3ZlcmxheS5naWZ8c2NhbGU9c2FtcGxlLDAsNDgwfGNvbXBvc2U9cmVzdWx0LHNhbXBsZSxBZGQsMCwwfGNvbXByZXNzaW9uPTk1fA== (http://zapatopi.net/belgium/)

[coffeezombie]

It's simple. Because you all talk about the US a lot means I HAVE TO become interested in it if I want to talk about politics at all. But there are many other, more interesting countries to talk about that, because nobody from the USA knows anything about them (and I'm talking in general here. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, except maybe booyalab) it's pointless to bring up, since the majority of people here are from the USA.
You're free to recruit Belgians on here and talk to them about Belgium and make us learn about that country too. If you and Swift had a discussion about your country, I'm sure I'd learn twice as much about your country as I already know (which is not a lot).

There are several Aussies and Brits on here who rarely talk about their country. Perhaps Americans just like to talk about their country more. Perhaps there is just more for everybody, even non-Americans, to talk about.

[Circe]

Alright. The american cliché over here in europe: many americans are fat, stupid people who don't have any common sense. That's what 'the man in the street' will tell you americans are like.ApeTheDog, the aussie man on the street would concur with much of what you just said and also add to that "loud, obnoxious, ignorant, shallow, materialistic, egotistical pricks" - it's just the image the USofA folks portray.


What I personally think america is is just another country that is hyped a bit too much. The USA is exceptionally good at selling itself, and putting up an image, but when you poke beyond the surface you sometimes find very foul things. I think there's a bit too much show, and a bit too little content sometimes. And it hurts my brain when I see everybody swallowing the bullshit speeches and emo-trash that sometimes happen on tv, in political speeches, anywhere. And what the hell kind of manners is it to protest against people protesting the death penalty outside the courthouse? What the hell makes it okay to make a sign with 'fry the fucker' on it and then protest, and actually be proud and think you have something to say? That is, i'm afraid, typically american too. And those people protesting the gay people with 'you are going to hell, fag'? I can't believe that kind of behavior is normal over there.Agree.

[coffeezombie]

ApeTheDog, the aussie man on the street would concur with much of what you just said and also add to that "loud, obnoxious, ignorant, shallow, materialistic, egotistical pricks" - it's just the image the USofA folks portray.

Agree.
It's easy to find something wrong with every culture if you want to. Different things for different cultures.

[Circe]

It's easy to find something wrong with every culture if you want to. Different things for different cultures.
Agree with you CZ, however, this thread is specifically directed to what non USofA people perceive of the USofA.

a post directed to those that dont live in the united states: now what do you think america is?

[Dunearhp]

Unavoidable. Currently having too many tropical storms.

Queensland Australia hasn't had a decent wet season for almost two decades. You don't need all that wet weather, send some over here.

Taiwan has just had a typhoon. Three killed in Taiwan, 11 in China.

New South Wales recently had some freak storms. A branch fell on a schoolgirl's tent, killing one of the occupants. They were on a school excursion. It was quite sad.

A category 5 Typhoon is heading towards Okinawa.

I had to actively search for this stuff.

Like I said, unavoidable. (http://abc.com.au/news/)

[seba]

New South Wales recently had some freak storms. A branch fell on a schoolgirl's tent, killing one of the occupants. They were on a school excursion. It was quite sad.unavoidable. (http://abc.com.au/news/)

here happened the same.

[Circe]

It's easy to find something wrong with every culture if you want to. Different things for different cultures.Cultures are different and one major difference I have noticed between Aussies and USofA ("yanks" to us aussies) is the loudness of their conversational voices.
I've often wondered as to why the USofA people speak so loudly and have often thought that perhaps many are deaf and that deafness may be heredity over there.

I've noticed that when a USofA person is even participating in everyday conversation over here, their speaking voice (decibels) always seems to be uncomfortably loud for me. USofA people probably wouldn't notice this, although it is obvious to other people (other cultures) who tend to keep conversational levels under 70 decibels.

[coffeezombie]

Cultures are different and one major difference I have noticed between Aussies and USofA ("yanks" to us aussies) is the loudness of their conversational voices.
I've often wondered as to why the USofA people speak so loudly and have often thought that perhaps many are deaf and that deafness may be heredity over there.

I've noticed that when a USofA person is even participating in everyday conversation over here, their speaking voice (decibels) always seems to be uncomfortably loud for me. USofA people probably wouldn't notice this, although it is obvious to other people (other cultures) who tend to keep conversational levels under 70 decibels.
I guess there is an excitement of life that most Americans have and a cultural need to express it without restriction regardless of whether others are around. I often wonder if it comes from the fact that most of the US culture developed either around spacious farms or loud cities like New York.

I'm quite quiet myself (people often ask me to speak up) but I've noticed foreigners who come here to study and hang out with Americans often get just as loud as Americans do. I guess it's one of those "do in Rome" things.

[Circe]

I guess there is an excitement of life that most Americans have and a cultural need to express it without restriction regardless of whether others are around. I often wonder if it comes from the fact that most of the US culture developed either around spacious farms or loud cities like New York.

I'm quite quiet myself (people often ask me to speak up) but I've noticed foreigners who come here to study and hang out with Americans often get just as loud as Americans do. I guess it's one of those "do in Rome" things.Yes, the incessant drone within the big cities could account for this loudness in vocal ability, since the aussie culture was founded upon devious non-law abiding scroundrals (a need for quiet voices and the ability to continue communication in the absence of words).

It's interesting that you say, that after awhile "foreigners" tend to become loud as well over there. It could be as you say, foreigners tend to know, do and respect "when in Rome ..." although, USofA people seem to be either ignorant of this or have never mastered the practicalities of applying this when they are "guests" within another country.

[coffeezombie]

It's interesting that you say, that after awhile "foreigners" tend to become loud as well over there. It could be as you say, foreigners tend to know, do and respect "when in Rome ..." although, USofA people seem to be either ignorant of this or have never mastered the practicalities of applying this when they are "guests" within another country.
Well, as I only knew the foreign students who did hang out with Americans, I'd have to guess that the ones that hang out with their own kind retain their cultural traits. An American who was on his own in Australia hanging out with Australians would probably soon become quieter when he realized that his loudness was annoying those who he was with.

[panda]

I became much quieter and more reticent after living in Japan, though I've always been more disinclined to speak compared to "most" (as far as I can determine). Now, I can't stand the loudness and abrasiveness of my "fellow" Americans.

[Serotonin]

- Centre of the greatest empire in the history of the world, with one of the most (abstractly) noble sovereign foundations, yet the current Administration is inhabited by some of the most insipid and humourless individuals to grace the public eye.

- Harbours the most diverse and competent scientific and academic community in the world, yet the image we get of most Americans is a group of loud, ignorant and uninformed people.

- (conjectural point) If you take the cream of the crop of literature, music and film from the last century, American oeuvres rate the most highly, yet these are overwhelmed by demand for trashy novels, bland teen-pop and Hollywood blockbusters from the majority of their own population and those overseas to whom they export their culture.

A country of contradictions, hence a fascinating one, and more deserving of attention than Switzerland.

[panda]

Serotonin: Interesting and cogent analysis.

[Serotonin]

In addendum, a country that was founded on thumbing its nose at current authority, with violence, sedition and exploitation, hence violence, sedition and exploitation has, and always will be, permanently ingrained in the American psyche, and will always manifest towards perceived authorities.

[PiccoloNamek]

Cultures are different and one major difference I have noticed between Aussies and USofA ("yanks" to us aussies) is the loudness of their conversational voices.
I've often wondered as to why the USofA people speak so loudly and have often thought that perhaps many are deaf and that deafness may be heredity over there.

I've noticed that when a USofA person is even participating in everyday conversation over here, their speaking voice (decibels) always seems to be uncomfortably loud for me. USofA people probably wouldn't notice this, although it is obvious to other people (other cultures) who tend to keep conversational levels under 70 decibels.

I think it probably has something to do with "large and in charge - super extrovert" aspect of American society. America in particular is as extroverted as hell. I think the loud and stupid people are, for whatever reason, viewed with more respect than their quiet counterparts.

[PenguinHunter]

Well, as I only knew the foreign students who did hang out with Americans, I'd have to guess that the ones that hang out with their own kind retain their cultural traits. An American who was on his own in Australia hanging out with Australians would probably soon become quieter when he realized that his loudness was annoying those who he was with.

I dunno.... most aussies I know are quite loud too. (but in a more clever way...)

EDIT: oops hadn't read the thread very carefully all the way through. This comment should probably be nudged more in Circe's direction.

[PenguinHunter]

In addendum, a country that was founded on thumbing its nose at current authority, with violence, sedition and exploitation

Aren't most countries founded that way?

[Serotonin]

Aren't most countries founded that way?

Not mine.
Edit: possibly an element of violence.

[PenguinHunter]

Not mine.
Edit: possibly an element of violence.

Exploitation too I think. You did start as a British colony afterall. And what self-respecting Aussi doesn't thumb their nose at the poms?

[coffeezombie]

I dunno.... most aussies I know are quite loud too. (but in a more clever way...)

EDIT: oops hadn't read the thread very carefully all the way through. This comment should probably be nudged more in Circe's direction.
I met some groups of Aussies while hosteling in the UK during the winter and, while louder than Brits, I can't say that they are as bad as Americans. I remember sitting in a tube car in London and hearing two American girls talk about their personal life in close quarters as loudly as possible while the rest of us had to sit there and suffer. At least those two weren't both loud and fat, like several other groups of Americans I saw there.

[Circe]

Exploitation too I think. You did start as a British colony afterall. And what self-respecting Aussi doesn't thumb their nose at the poms?It was more of a sewage outlet as it was commenced as a British Penal Colony - transportation was gleaned from only the very top echelon of those weighted heavily down in British chains.
BTW, it's "Aussie" not "Aussi"

[Architectonic]

It was more of a sewage outlet as it was commenced as a British Penal Colony - transportation was gleaned from only the very top echelon of those weighted heavily down in British chains.

Except for Adelaide, which was a planned colony of free immigrants.

[booyalab]

I think the loud and stupid people are, for whatever reason, viewed with more respect than their quiet counterparts.

why do you say that? I've been in other countries and I haven't seen loud, stupid Americans be reprimanded for being loud and stupid any more frequently than they have been in America. Also, it depends where you are in the states.

for instance:


I remember sitting in a tube car in London and hearing two American girls talk about their personal life in close quarters as loudly as possible while the rest of us had to sit there and suffer.

In my experience, if these girls were talking loudly about personal BS on a city bus in any city bus system I've been in..in the US, someone would've told them to shut up.

[Circe]

why do you say that? I've been in other countries and I haven't seen loud, stupid Americans be reprimanded for being loud and stupid any more frequently than they have been in America. Also, it depends where you are in the states.

for instance:


In my experience, if these girls were talking loudly about personal BS on a city bus in any city bus system I've been in..in the US, someone would've told them to shut up.That's the funny thing booyalab, people from many "quiet cultures" will not say anything to those whom they find offensive in these situations and will simply tolerate it until they find a chance to remove themselves from the "socially uncomfortable" situation that has presented itself.
It could be for a couple of reasons - firstly, by telling them to be quiet draws attention to the fact that their "private" conversation is clearly audible to you and secondly, people in "quiet cultures" find it rude to intrude themselves into another's space.

[sasapurdue]

Alright. The american cliché over here in europe: many americans are fat, stupid people who don't have any common sense. That's what 'the man in the street' will tell you americans are like.

What I personally think america is is just another country that is hyped a bit too much. The USA is exceptionally good at selling itself, and putting up an image, but when you poke beyond the surface you sometimes find very foul things. I think there's a bit too much show, and a bit too little content sometimes. And it hurts my brain when I see everybody swallowing the bullshit speeches and emo-trash that sometimes happen on tv, in political speeches, anywhere. And what the hell kind of manners is it to protest against people protesting the death penalty outside the courthouse? What the hell makes it okay to make a sign with 'fry the fucker' on it and then protest, and actually be proud and think you have something to say? That is, i'm afraid, typically american too. And those people protesting the gay people with 'you are going to hell, fag'? I can't believe that kind of behavior is normal over there.
I don't think the "fry fucker" and "you are going to hell, fag" people are considered normal at all. I would say that most people view them as extremists. Extremists just like we see in many cultures, religions etc. in many different place around the world. I don't think, on average, Americans think that kind of hate is ok, normal or acceptable.
I am not defending America as a whole, I actually feel quite ashamed to be American. I am just saying that on average most people here are not these "burn baby burn, eye for an eye, if you aren't christian you aren't any good" types -- and I am from one of the most redneck states in the union.
Notice the "unfortunately" in the my information side bar.

[booyalab]

That's the funny thing booyalab, people from many "quiet cultures" will not say anything to those whom they find offensive in these situations and will simply tolerate it until they find a chance to remove themselves from the "socially uncomfortable" situation that has presented itself.
yes, they will wait until the Americans are out of hearing distance to criticize them. Very well-mannered.



I don't think the "fry fucker" and "you are going to hell, fag" people are considered normal at all. I would say that most people view them as extremists. Extremists just like we see in many cultures, religions etc. in many different place around the world. I don't think, on average, Americans think that kind of hate is ok, normal or acceptable.
I am not defending America as a whole, I actually feel quite ashamed to be American. I am just saying that on average most people here are not these "burn baby burn, eye for an eye, if you aren't christian you aren't any good" types -- and I am from one of the most redneck states in the union.
Notice the "unfortunately" in the my information side bar

I notice you only cite examples from one side of the political spectrum. That must be because the other side is blameless.

btw, this is a natural side effect of freedom of speech and a diverse populous. duh.

[Circe]

yes, they will wait until the Americans are out of hearing distance to criticize them. Very well-mannered.No, not at all booyalab, most of the time people in "quiet cultures" won't take to criticising Americans or other visiting nationalities especially for this "cultural ignorance", since they gain satisfaction and relief by removing themselves from the situation. Although, the same people may then give a slight cringe or give a wide berth when hearing another American within close proximity.

[invictus]

I would say that America is the Rome of the modern world. It embodies the successes and tragedies of the fiercely individualistic rationalist mindset that created and nurtures it.

There is nowhere else in the world where you have more economic and personal freedom. The art of using this freedom to enrich oneself is a completely different issue however.

Ultimately Nationalism is only a tool of the current American administration. Those Europeans (who I can speak for) who profess to hate “stupid americans” are themselves just as naively nationalistic as those they profess to dislike.

Those people on both side of the Atlantic who believed in the antiwar movement show us a great many important truths although they are themselves trapped in the paradox not being able to choose between lesser evils (international, social and environmental goods can conflict)

Those who supported or opposed the war on macroeconomic grounds (enlightened self interest) have created a wound that will last generations. The international community should have co-operated to address oil market problems and the failure to do so has virtually guarantied middle-east wars at some point.

Ultimately what we are capable of understanding defines us far more then our nationality, culture or personal beliefs.
____________________________
Carpe per diem - seize the check

[Nighthawk]

As a German-speaking American, living in Germany for 3 years, I found out quickly what Germans (and some other Europeans) thought of America and Americans. Walking around in an American military uniform half the time seemed to make the Germans more comfortable expressing their true feelings, confident that I would not understand what they were saying. Most of the ones I encountered were kind and polite people. There was an element however, particularly among the younger generation, with a vehement hatred for Americans and America. It was a very eye-opening experience to be hated so intensely, simply because of where I was born. It reminded me a lot of some of the more narrow-minded racists here in the USA. Incongruously, they usually reversed their attitude once I started speaking to them in their native language.

As I said, this was only a very small portion of the German community, but it did affect me to the point that I do not like to travel outside my own country anymore. I do not like visiting places where I am hated for my nationality, and sadly ... that seems to be most of the world now. Perhaps that will change a bit after 2008 when (I am fairly certain) a less hawkish Democrat will assume the office of president.

I will grant the fact that many Americans are loud, obnoxious, and fat. I almost got into an altercation with some of those very types yesterday evening while I was enjoying a few beers ... and they took exception to the fact that I brought a laptop into the establishment. I don't like being around a significant portion of my own countrymen, but that is more because I am INTP and they are obnoxious, sensing, extraverts.

[Nighthawk]

Those who supported or opposed the war on macroeconomic grounds (enlightened self interest) have created a wound that will last generations. The international community should have co-operated to address oil market problems and the failure to do so has virtually guarantied middle-east wars at some point.
... or devoted the considerable amount of money spent on the war to developing alternative sources of energy, so that Western countries would not be so dependent upon the Middle East for oil. Unfortunately, the "business as usual" SJs in charge of the oil companies would rather stick with what they know, than look for something new.

[coffeezombie]

As I said, this was only a very small portion of the German community, but it did affect me to the point that I do not like to travel outside my own country anymore. I do not like visiting places where I am hated for my nationality, and sadly ... that seems to be most of the world now. Perhaps that will change a bit after 2008 when (I am fairly certain) a less hawkish Democrat will assume the office of president.

That's a shame. I think that Europeans who hate Americans usually like them if they break a stereotype in one way or another. The fact that you actually bothered to learn German and speak it broke their stereotype in an important way, so of course they started liking you. Of course, being in the miltary at first, you fit the stereotype too well, so of course they didn't like you.



I will grant the fact that many Americans are loud, obnoxious, and fat. I almost got into an altercation with some of those very types yesterday evening while I was enjoying a few beers ... and they took exception to the fact that I brought a laptop into the establishment. I don't like being around a significant portion of my own countrymen, but that is more because I am INTP and they are obnoxious, sensing, extraverts.

That's hilarious. Many countries in Europe have bars/pubs with wi/fi hookups where people plug in and get on the Internet at their leisure with their laptops. Luckily our country's young people seem to accept technological advances much more readily than our older generation, which saves us from lagging too much behind technologically.

[CENTIPEDE HEAD]

I would say that America is the Rome of the modern world. It embodies the successes and tragedies of the fiercely individualistic rationalist mindset that created and nurtures it.

There is nowhere else in the world where you have more economic and personal freedom. The art of using this freedom to enrich oneself is a completely different issue however.

Ultimately Nationalism is only a tool of the current American administration. Those Europeans (who I can speak for) who profess to hate “stupid americans” are themselves just as naively nationalistic as those they profess to dislike.

Those people on both side of the Atlantic who believed in the antiwar movement show us a great many important truths although they are themselves trapped in the paradox not being able to choose between lesser evils (international, social and environmental goods can conflict)

Those who supported or opposed the war on macroeconomic grounds (enlightened self interest) have created a wound that will last generations. The international community should have co-operated to address oil market problems and the failure to do so has virtually guarantied middle-east wars at some point.

Ultimately what we are capable of understanding defines us far more then our nationality, culture or personal beliefs.
____________________________
Carpe per diem - seize the check

I couldn't have said it better than this guy or gal did.

America is like Elvis, the Vegas years right now. We're like a terribly unhip pop star on the world stage right now. Things have politically swung too far to the right at this time. I believe this is directly due to the fact that our population consists of a lot of middle aged Baby Boomers who are getting rigidly conservative in their old age. Things can change, hopefully for the better.

[Nighthawk]

I will grant the fact that many Americans are loud, obnoxious, and fat. I almost got into an altercation with some of those very types yesterday evening while I was enjoying a few beers ... and they took exception to the fact that I brought a laptop into the establishment. I don't like being around a significant portion of my own countrymen, but that is more because I am INTP and they are obnoxious, sensing, extraverts.


That's hilarious. Many countries in Europe have bars/pubs with wi/fi hookups where people plug in and get on the Internet at their leisure with their laptops. Luckily our country's young people seem to accept technological advances much more readily than our older generation, which saves us from lagging too much behind technologically.
These were younger (than me) guys, in their 20's. Stereotypical loud, obnoxious, prettyboy, waitress-grabbing, SP jocks who were rapidly going to fat. I'd brought the laptop in so I could leave work early and still monitor what was going on with the servers and applications ... since the place (Hooters) had a wifi hotspot. They thought this was funny for some reason and started pointing and laughing ... then frequent over the shoulder looks and snickering. There was plenty of beer and testosterone on both sides, so it degraded into a staring match and ... fortunately ... they backed down or I would probably have gotten my ass kicked. Ironically, one of them had a bluetooth in his ear the whole time and was yacking on it intermittently. I guess double standards apply. It was all very high-schoolish. I though I was many years past things like that, but I guess I was wrong. Just reinforces that I dislike certain personality types, rather than ethnic types or nationalities.

[Nighthawk]

America is like Elvis, the Vegas years right now. We're like a terribly unhip pop star on the world stage right now.
A very apt metaphor.

[CENTIPEDE HEAD]

I would say that America is the Rome of the modern world. It embodies the successes and tragedies of the fiercely individualistic rationalist mindset that created and nurtures it.

There is nowhere else in the world where you have more economic and personal freedom. The art of using this freedom to enrich oneself is a completely different issue however.

Ultimately Nationalism is only a tool of the current American administration. Those Europeans (who I can speak for) who profess to hate “stupid americans” are themselves just as naively nationalistic as those they profess to dislike.

Those people on both side of the Atlantic who believed in the antiwar movement show us a great many important truths although they are themselves trapped in the paradox not being able to choose between lesser evils (international, social and environmental goods can conflict)

Those who supported or opposed the war on macroeconomic grounds (enlightened self interest) have created a wound that will last generations. The international community should have co-operated to address oil market problems and the failure to do so has virtually guarantied middle-east wars at some point.

Ultimately what we are capable of understanding defines us far more then our nationality, culture or personal beliefs.
____________________________
Carpe per diem - seize the check

I have to reiterate, here. Very good indeed, invictus. First post on INTPC too.

[PenguinHunter]

I have to reiterate, here. Very good indeed, invictus. First post on INTPC too.

Let's not get carried away here. He had some good points but there is a lot to disagree with.


I would say that America is the Rome of the modern world. It embodies the successes and tragedies of the fiercely individualistic rationalist mindset that created and nurtures it.

I don't know that this is actually that good of an analogy. Was Rome "fiercely idividualistic and rationalist"? Is America? No more than any other nation in my mind.



There is nowhere else in the world where you have more economic and personal freedom. The art of using this freedom to enrich oneself is a completely different issue however.

Just how do you figure Americans have more personal freedom than the rest of the world?



Ultimately Nationalism is only a tool of the current American administration. Those Europeans (who I can speak for) who profess to hate “stupid americans” are themselves just as naively nationalistic as those they profess to dislike. Those people on both side of the Atlantic who believed in the antiwar movement show us a great many important truths although they are themselves trapped in the paradox not being able to choose between lesser evils (international, social and environmental goods can conflict)

I think an important thing to note here is that while fierce nationalism is still closer to the norm in the US, hating America is far from the norm in the rest of the world. The world still remains very tolerant. Nighthawk noted that it was mostly German youth bugging him and that's the way it always seems to be. Same thing in the middle east. I knew a ton of Americans while I was there and, while there are always a few slightly angsty kids bugging everyone, most of the population welcomes all foreigners with open arms. American or not. So, while I possibly agree with your statement, I think it's important to note that very few people are like that. Disliking the Iraq War or President Bush and disliking America are two very separate things.



Those who supported or opposed the war on macroeconomic grounds (enlightened self interest) have created a wound that will last generations. The international community should have co-operated to address oil market problems and the failure to do so has virtually guarantied middle-east wars at some point.

Ultimately what we are capable of understanding defines us far more then our nationality, culture or personal beliefs.

I don't really follow these statements. Co-operated how, with who, doing what to prevent Middle Eastern wars? What you're capable of understanding eventually may or may not become the beliefs you use to guide your actions. How does this define you?

Anyways welcome to the forum.

[PenguinHunter]

It was more of a sewage outlet as it was commenced as a British Penal Colony - transportation was gleaned from only the very top echelon of those weighted heavily down in British chains.
BTW, it's "Aussie" not "Aussi"

Regardless, one of the main reasons the Australian economy is good now is because it was once a British colony which relied heavily on Britain's exploitation of other colonies.

My sincere apologies about the spelling. I knew that, I don't know what I was thinking.

[CENTIPEDE HEAD]

Emphasizing that this was good was not tantamount to me agreeing with everything. There's just a lot here to chew on. I didn't mean to imply he/she was impervious to opposing arguments. What invictus wrote is like a thesis here, more than a developed argument. In the philosophies of Plato and Socrates, I'd say Rome was undergirded by rationalism for a while. But it declined and imploded, although at one time it was the "Superpower" of its day. The parallel to America is a good one and worth further exploration. The "idea" of America was hatched in the context of the Enlightenment, with men like Jefferson, Adams, and Madison at the helm. These were definitive Rationalists. There were great thinkers behind the US, at least at the outset. Then the country became huge, spread across the continent and eventully we've arrived at the current situation, where we are perceived as fat, stupid, shallow, nationalistic, and belligerent around the world. You say here you don't think that's the case. I have no data to go on, other than what I'm detecting in the media and even here on INTPC.

[PenguinHunter]

Emphasizing that this was good was not tantamount to me agreeing with everything. There's just a lot here to chew on. I didn't mean to imply he/she was impervious to opposing arguments. What invictus wrote is like a thesis here, more than a developed argument. In the philosophies of Plato and Socrates, I'd say Rome was undergirded by rationalism for a while. But it declined and imploded, although at one time it was the "Superpower" of its day. The parallel to America is a good one and worth further exploration. The "idea" of America was hatched in the context of the Enlightenment, with men like Jefferson, Adams, and Madison at the helm. These were definitive Rationalists. There were great thinkers behind the US, at least at the outset. Then the country became huge, spread across the continent and eventully we've arrived at the current situation, where we are perceived as fat, stupid, shallow, nationalistic, and belligerent around the world. You say here you don't think that's the case. I have no data to go on, other than what I'm detecting in the media and even here on INTPC.

Fair enough. I agree with the perception comparison. One could use those adjectives interchangeably with the stereotype of the "Roman" and the "American."

There's possibly some value to the Roman-American comparison I just think it's overplayed. Part of it is because the implication of the analogy is that now America, like Rome, will "decline and fall." I would disagree with this implied projection. A big difference is that all Americans identify with their nationality while the Roman empire had very few actual "Romans." The Roman empire was just that, an empire. Not a country.

Actually, now that I think about it more, I have a lot of trouble associating any country or empire with rationalism. I don't see nation/empire building as a very rational process (not considering military tactics of course). The details are rational. Things like when you can conquer who are rational. But the grand scheme just sort of happens. I think it's very difficult to claim to rationally guide the identity of a nation. How important is the American Constitution to the American way of life today? Of course many will argue (maybe rightly) that the constitution is everything but I'm not convinced. Many a shitty country could have an excellent constitution. It's all about how the common "non-rationalist"/everyman interprets and carries out the ideas of those with the title of "rationalist." In the same way, some countries which have what some might consider a poor or limiting constitution have actually turned out quite well thanks to good early leaders.

I don't really like to think of any nation's roots as more or less rational than the next. America doesn't reflect ideas of the Enlightenment anymore than any other countries. I'd say less than a lot now. In the end I don't think any countries can be considered to be based on philosophies. There are just too many unknowns which mess with the logic.

[mgb]

To answer the original question...

I look at most Americans as just regular ordinary people, much like you'd find in Europe or China or even Africa.

As a group though, I look at Americans much differently than I would as individuals.

I've been thinking about this a bit. The whole thing in New Orleans and the way it's being handled is quintessentially American. People left the city in an every man for himself way. A whole bunch of people were left over and just got fucked because no one cared. Then you have this half-hearted, brutal, relief effort with all the shit running downhill instead of uphill. And then we find out that all of this could have been avoided to some extent if funds hadn't been cut from the construction projects for the levies, which was redirected into the war and terrorism protection, which is nothing more than fear mongering.

Then people start sending money in because that's going to make it better.

In this one disaster you get to see the best of America and the worst. Having that juxtaposition at the same time is what I think of when I think of "America".

[Helios]

I think this subject is a tad overdone. I'll admit I am sometime questioned abroad about "Bush", which I have little to comment about, but otherwise I don't think much of the world (excluding Canada) gives that much thought to the States. I mean some, due to scope of our geo-politcal power, but some maybe shocked that in the week spent on the Red Sea, with only 2 other yanks, this never come up. We all chatted politics and culture endlessly, but most often understood view of the west, was as that, "the West", a contiguous cultural mass. The music in London is played in L.A. The politics of Washington are echoed in Rome. The food in Paris is mimiced across the world, as is the fashions of Milan.

Sitting there we would talk about life and history, and for better of worse "we" was all of us, the Americans, the Swiss, the Germans, etc. Them was everyone else, most often the Egyptains,Arabs or Israelis in this context. But also the Chinese,Indian, or who ever.

My experiance has been this great conflict doesn't exist, on this scale some seem to think. This view was greatly reinforced everytime there was any trouble or conflict, you'd quickly see the "wagons in a circle" as the various french,swiss, and who ever else found each other, and solidifed our postion, even when we didn't speak exactly the same tongue. In the end I think we are all like one large dysfunctional family.

Personally I don't strongly identify as "American" to the exclusion of my wider cultural heritage. This republic in this form will no doubt pass, but the culture of my people and our history is what I connect with, and most of that pre-dates 1776 anyway.

[CENTIPEDE HEAD]

In terms of who you meet on the street or in terms of pop culture, no, America definitely doesn't currently make one think of the Enlightenment. Hardly. In fact, the current face it presents to the world is one of the opposite: Benightment. Still, I would disagree with you in that its roots were very much representative of the Enlightenment thinking of that era. In the beginning the founders sought to develop a new incarnation of the old Roman-style democracy, only with some new features built into it designed to foil some things they believed were weak about other governments. So they wrote the balance of powers, freqeuent re-elections, a bicameral legislature, and even the electoral college (to counter the "tyranny of the masses") into the constitution. These guys were students of human nature and its relationship to statecraft. It was the most Rational, well-thought-out plan for a country that had ever existed to that point because the founders were well aware of the stubborness of human folly in how history plays out in the real world. And to be sure, they weren't perfect. For example, they bowed out of addressing the issue of slavery which at that time was the 800 pound gorilla in the corner, staring at their ambitions of a free country. In spite of all their efforts, though, one could argue that very little of the subsequent history of America resounded with much rationalism, right up to the present day. But enough was built into the system to allow enough success for the country to begin to rest on its laurels. One of the ways it fits such a description as this is shallow nationalism. The Everyman American loves to ignorantly wave his American flag like he's rooting for a football team and buys records by country music "artists" who have lines like "We'll Put A Boot In Your Ass, It's the American Way!" Ugh.. No wonder we are perceived the way we are. Ideas go a long way, and I tip my hat to Adams et al. But I think he's rolling over in his grave right now. This is not what he would have envisioned for us. I agree that countries could get things right in spite of their foundations and whether those rested on the heady "Rationalist" movement (or any other Big Idea for that matter).

[kuranes]

Did I say that everybody else in the world is more educated than booyalab? Because I meanth to say that, I'm just not sure I managed to insinuate it enough. Did anybody else hear it?

It's simple. Because you all talk about the US a lot means I HAVE TO become interested in it if I want to talk about politics at all. But there are many other, more interesting countries to talk about that, because nobody from the USA knows anything about them (and I'm talking in general here. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, except maybe booyalab) it's pointless to bring up, since the majority of people here are from the USA.

Would things be the same on any other forum where the majority was a large demographic all from one or two neighbouring countries? YES! It's normal. But it's also normal not to like it if you're not a part of the 'team', is it?

I tried to get a thread going about Belgium, in particular, and other places. It didn't get very many posters. Not sure why.

[PenguinHunter]

no, America definitely doesn't currently make one think of the Enlightenment.

:lol: that made me laugh. But then the people you met on the street during the Enlightenment wouldn't remind you of the Enlightenment either so I guess that doesn't matter much. I often find it weird how the movement has such a great and vivid image to it and yet it was such a fringe movement and even many of the so-called "great" thinkers would be considered terribly backwards now. (And so on for eternity).


Still, I would disagree with you in that its roots were very much representative of the Enlightenment thinking of that era. In the beginning the founders sought to develop a new incarnation of the old Roman-style democracy, only with some new features built into it designed to foil some things they believed were weak about other governments. So they wrote the balance of powers, freqeuent re-elections, a bicameral legislature, and even the electoral college (to counter the "tyranny of the masses") into the constitution. These guys were students of human nature and its relationship to statecraft. It was the most Rational, well-thought-out plan for a country that had ever existed to that point because the founders were well aware of the stubborness of human folly in how history plays out in the real world. And to be sure, they weren't perfect. For example, they bowed out of addressing the issue of slavery which at that time was the 800 pound gorilla in the corner, staring at their ambitions of a free country.

I completely agree that the roots were based in Enlightenment thinking. It's a fantastic example actually. When I said nation building is not a rational process I meant that I don't think the "builders" (Adams et al), ultimately, have much effect on the outcome of a country. They create the illusion that they do because history allows them to create a seemingly perfect constitution. In the end though, the constitution will still be open to interpretation based on current popular culture. The leaders are forced to cater to the popular culture and thus the direction the builders intended is completely lost.



In spite of all their efforts, though, one could argue that very little of the subsequent history of America resounded with much rationalism, right up to the present day. But enough was built into the system to allow enough success for the country to begin to rest on its laurels. One of the ways it fits such a description as this is shallow nationalism. The Everyman American loves to ignorantly wave his American flag like he's rooting for a football team and buys records by country music "artists" who have lines like "We'll Put A Boot In Your Ass, It's the American Way!" Ugh.. No wonder we are perceived the way we are. Ideas go a long way, and I tip my hat to Adams et al. But I think he's rolling over in his grave right now. This is not what he would have envisioned for us. I agree that countries could get things right in spite of their foundations and whether those rested on the heady "Rationalist" movement (or any other Big Idea for that matter).

heh, I think we are basically agreeing here. I'm not convinced that it was the system that Adams and crew developed which gave America the edge it needed to be successful but I should probably do a bit of wikipedia american history research before I try to argue that. I don't mean that their ideas are unimportant of course. They may well be, but in a different sphere. They just didn't have an immediate effect on the developing America or much of an effect on the course that the country took afterwards.

[aether]

....a pretty big country, 3rd in size, 3rd in population, 1st in economy and everything else....

[CENTIPEDE HEAD]

[QUOTE=PenguinHunter]:lol: that made me laugh. But then the people you met on the street during the Enlightenment wouldn't remind you of the Enlightenment either so I guess that doesn't matter much. I often find it weird how the movement has such a great and vivid image to it and yet it was such a fringe movement and even many of the so-called "great" thinkers would be considered terribly backwards now. (And so on for eternity).

Well, yes, but American people back in those days in general were leaner and meaner. They had to be tough, and self-reliant to survive. They weren't all plumped up on McDonalds and vegged out on too much tv. Hell, even the French liked us at one point; Ben Franklin was loved by all there. De Toqueville had at least some good things to say about Jacksonian era Americans. He also did predict much of what has been borne out in our history, even some of our present-day mediocrities. I mean, just look at Mr. Everyman-American these days: there just seems a greater gulf between this guy and the American public that elected John Quincy Adams president. Nowadays we re-elect the likes of W. But then maybe I'm romanticizing the past. I guess the point of all this is that Rational beginnings to not lead to Rational outcome. Maybe Rationalism was too naively confident in Reason as the answer to all our problems.

[PenguinHunter]

Maybe Rationalism was too naively confident in Reason as the answer to all our problems.

hehe... yes, yes indeed.

[sasapurdue]

yes, they will wait until the Americans are out of hearing distance to criticize them. Very well-mannered.



I notice you only cite examples from one side of the political spectrum. That must be because the other side is blameless.

btw, this is a natural side effect of freedom of speech and a diverse populous. duh.

I was just responding to one particular person's comment. I don't think being at the extreme end of either side of the spectrum is a particularly positive thing.
Wow, how impressive, your "Duh" comment is so in-line with typical American arrogance. Great concrete illustration of what people already thought about us.
you are annoying.

[invictus]

I don't know that this is actually that good of an analogy. Was Rome "fiercely idividualistic and rationalist"? Is America? No more than any other nation in my mind.

I would argue that rome was the origin of much of what we consider to be our own culture (your using roman script for example and every sentance you write probably contains a word of latin origin because the original concept did not exist in the original germanic language that became english). I am of the opinion that america has the same type of legacy and is very important because of that(to me anyway). I would argue that americas dominant(ie most powerful not most populist) culture is a individualistic and rationalistic (More power flows from the idea of enlightened self interest rather then from religion or egalitarian motive). I would feel this is more true in america than any other large country.
That isn't to imply that american(or europian or any) culture is perfect. They all have their strengths and weaknesses(and how!).


Just how do you figure Americans have more personal freedom than the rest of the world?
What people mean by freedom varies quite a bit. For instance a muslim fundamentalist might consider iran to be the freest place in the world. I would mean personal freedom in the sense that you are free to do whatever you wish even(especially) if most people would be of the opinion that it is a very bad idea and you should not be allowed to do it. (yes, i know this is a messy inexact definition )




I think an important thing to note here is that while fierce nationalism is still closer to the norm in the US, hating America is far from the norm in the rest of the world. The world still remains very tolerant. Nighthawk noted that it was mostly German youth bugging him and that's the way it always seems to be. Same thing in the middle east. I knew a ton of Americans while I was there and, while there are always a few slightly angsty kids bugging everyone, most of the population welcomes all foreigners with open arms. American or not. So, while I possibly agree with your statement, I think it's important to note that very few people are like that. Disliking the Iraq War or President Bush and disliking America are two very separate things.
Yes disliking american nationalism and disliking the whole gamut of american(or western for that matter) culture are quite different. I meant that many of those who profess to dislike american nationalism in my country often are themselves are very nationalistic and ethnocentric (which I always find quite ironic). Obviously those who have progressed beyond shallow nationalism usually decry it for what it is whereever it is found. You only tend to get in trouble when you conterdict peoples value systems (learned hard slow stubbern way!)



I don't really follow these statements. Co-operated how, with who, doing what to prevent Middle Eastern wars? What you're capable of understanding eventually may or may not become the beliefs you use to guide your actions. How does this define you?
If your familar with Frank Herbert's Dune novels you would notice an analogy between the "spice" and the middle east oil in the real world (he even said as much when he was alive). I would mean that our current level of civilation is painfully dependant on oil to function using current technology to maintain current levels of prosperity. You have a paradox that we are all in this world together and share the same fate and yet ubiquity goes to those entities that are the most powerful/fittest (In terms of both organisations and ideas)

That you are willing to question your beliefs means that you are more defined as the process of questioning rather then what your beliefs are currently. This might have something to do with the INPT personality I imagine too. :)

Much of what I write is thinking out loud and I personally I would consider how good debate is how much I have learnt form it (especially when I turn out to be mistaken).



America is like Elvis, the Vegas years right now. We're like a terribly unhip pop star on the world stage right now. Things have politically swung too far to the right at this time. I believe this is directly due to the fact that our population consists of a lot of middle aged Baby Boomers who are getting rigidly conservative in their old age. Things can change, hopefully for the better.
Lovely way of putting it. I would say that as people start to live longer you are bound to have that type of effect. Society often progresses moreso because old conservatives die and the next generation is taught differently rather then because the majority of people become more liberal as society changes. That said I would much perfer a world where people live long enough to experience culture shock in their own culture.Its really is much better then the opposite (ie people don't live very long (genius dies young before developing) and the majority of people are in the newest generation and soak up all the new ideas) .

I would agree that rationality is only capable of seeing so much. What is felt rather then reasoned is a completely orthogonal way to experience the world. The irony is that both ways of seeing/experiencing/connecting really need each other to get any kind of complete meaningful picture. Denial of the reality of either way of looking at the world causes quite abit of mental blindness. Im much more developed/comfortable with the rationist viewpoint though.


/Wave to everyone.

____________________________
Carpe per diem - seize the check

[Claverhouse]

- (conjectural point) If you take the cream of the crop of literature, music and film from the last century, American oeuvres rate the most highly, yet these are overwhelmed by demand for trashy novels, bland teen-pop and Hollywood blockbusters from the majority of their own population and those overseas to whom they export their culture.

A country of contradictions, hence a fascinating one, and more deserving of attention than Switzerland.
I'm, ah, not going into the original since anything I think or assume about Americans has been more than adequately covered, if obliquely: save to say that I far prefer the present bunch than those unspeakable old buggers who came up with that imbecilic constitution. ( I will charitably assume that the Declaration was really handed over for writing to some half-mad drunks, it being even worse. Really painful stuff. )

Yet, to take those three categories from the 20th century the American contribution only rates so highly because of the fact it was increasingly all-pervasive, thanks in part to the political hegemony, and due to being written in the lingua franca, English, and to the fact there was already a vast ready-made audience of Americans. And to the US becoming since the 18th century a perceived vision of freedom and glamour. Apart from this also excluding other cultures, there's no reason --- apart from the dominance of American popular music --- why any production then should be rated as excessively meritful, unless it would have achieved the same significance had it come from a small country, not written in English and not written for a large audience.

American films up to the 1930s are much the same as those of any other silents produced by others ( notably France or Germany ); 1930s to 40s, quite good; 1950s to 70s, mostly bad; 1970s on: very mixed.

American music: well, leaving out popular, 80% of which is going to be pretty terrible anyway in any country, that leaves jazz ( which I personally don't rate after about 1922 ) which America undoubtedly invented, and classical, where America has been singularly poor ( Copeland, Bernstein and other tedious composers ). It's not exactly 17th century France or 18th to 20th century Germany.

American Lit: there have undoubtedly been a few true greats, and a number of goods, but a/ they have been proportionately to population very few in comparison to smaller countries and b/ if we're talking Switzerland, Durrenmatt's 'The Visit of the Old Lady' reveals far more of basic human nature and is worth far more as a work of art than all the works of Hemingway & Fitzgerald put together.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[CENTIPEDE HEAD]

After reading Invictus' post, I scoured the internet and came up with this small piece or thesis (some guy Bob Hegamin??? was the author). This is just something more to think about for the purpose of this thread.. What is America? Maybe the whole Rome comparison is a little overwrought as someone suggested here. At this point, I think it's close to the mark. If America is on this track, then it would explain some of the ire and resentment developing toward the US around the world. American culture is being transmitted (thanks to modern communications) without actually taking over areas militarily as the Romans did. For example, when you look at what was once so distinctive a culture as China, with millions of their people now flocking into the cities driving SUV's and building shopping malls, you can see how American consumer culture has impacted the world.


"Our country is starting to show signs of the "Empire Syndrome" as it assumes the role of the world's "police force." Through a series of events, similar to those that made Rome and other great empires the superpowers of their day, the United States of America has been evolving into the only superpower of this age. For this paper, "Rome" will be used to typify that development.

"All roads lead to Rome." In the literal sense , the growth of the Roman Empire can be attributed to a system of roads used for rapid military movement and safe routes for commerce. They had been built to satisfy the increasing appetite of Romans for both conquest and the goods the conquered countries could provide. Rome was the superpower of its day, and capital of the known world. Unfortunately, in the figurative sense, the concept of the Roman road was a ”two-way street." Roman laws, which had been propagated throughout its far-flung empire, also allowed its enemies to use those same laws to destroy the Empire.

Some early and observable characteristics underscored the fall of the Roman Empire, and their presence in today's U.S. should be a wake-up call for all Americans. Consider these examples:

Import/Export Rome imported far more than it exported. Today, the U.S. is importing approximately $300 Billion a year more than it exports.

Citizenship People of conquered countries were made citizens of Rome. Today, the U.S. is granting citizenship to almost anyone who applies for the privilege.

Military Rome scattered its legions, then relied on "enemies-turned-Roman citizen soldiers" to defend the empire. Today, the U.S. has stationed its troops worldwide, yet relies on a coalition of sovereign powers to protect its national interests.

Currency The Roman coin was the coin of the realm. Today, the U.S. dollar is the world's "currency of choice."

Culture As the Roman Empire expanded, it also exported the Roman way-of-life. Today, the American way-of-life is being shipped world-wide.

Diversion Rome's Coliseum typifies the venue which used an "entertainment" opiate to desensitize Romans to government abuses. Today, countless numbers of diverse venues in the U.S. provide the "entertainment" opiate, desensitizing Americans to government abuse.

If a lesson has to be learned from history, Americans should be concerned about these similarities that led to the fall of Rome. Today's America is vulnerable, only because most Americans have allowed themselves to be governed by inept elected officials."

[tomeklund]

I'll admit I am sometime questioned abroad about "Bush", which I have little to comment about, but otherwise I don't think much of the world (excluding Canada) gives that much thought to the States.

I can sure you that there are a lot of places and countries in the world where the peoples give more than much thought about the USA!

Why? The reason is pretty damn simple. The USA is so darn big and powerful in about every possible way, that it can just walk over every other nation and economy and area whenever americans get delusional and just feel like that. Which means that about every stupidity what USA makes and the americans choose will be felt directly or indirectly worldwide....:rant:

infact...States influence on the world matters is so big, that the whole world should be able to take part in US elections... :whistle:

[coffeezombie]

infact..it so big that the whole world should be able to take part in US elections... :whistle:
A Chinese person would probably be elected, then.

[tomeklund]

irrelevant....as long as he/she is competent enough and has bit more brains than a regular rubber boot....

Although...this is the root problem of working democracy, if the masses are blind, then the whole system goes haywire.

[Claverhouse]

A Chinese person would probably be elected, then.
Be a damned strange world if very nearly every government in the world had a proportion of Chinese ministers and advisors: particularly if it became illegal to question this insane state of affairs or even to point it out; and that anyone who did was immediately accused of beastly anti-sinolism by hysterics. For each national government there would remain the suspicion that these ministers and advisors were more dedicated to Chinese ideals rather than the interests of the populace.

So far in Britain they confine themselves to running restaurants.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Fingers]

America is overweight, exercise more!

[Jacque]

America should join the rest of the world.

May Day is the only real Labor Day. ;)

[Claverhouse]

America should join the rest of the world.

May Day is the only real Labor Day. ;)

Just now I'm visualing a time-warp, with Jacque in a fur hat and heavy uncool coat standing beside those redoubtable old fighters for socialist freedom, Brezhnev & Kruschev, watching an endless parade of tanks, ground-to-air missiles, howitzers and jet-bombers symbolising the power of the proletariat.



Claverhouse :ph34r:


[ At Robin Cook's funeral in St. Giles' Cathedral last month the coffin was borne along to organ music, rather sweet, more like hammond or wurlitser than standard cathedral organs; after a moment's surprise it became obvious that it was the 'Internationale'. He must have been rather redder than his later career suggested. When Tony Blair passes away, which I hope is very very soon, you may be certain they won't play either that nor 'The Red Flag'.

Arise, ye starvelings ! ]

[Jacque]

Just now I'm visualing a time-warp, with Jacque in a fur hat and heavy uncool coat standing beside those redoubtable old fighters for socialist freedom, Brezhnev & Kruschev, watching an endless parade of tanks, ground-to-air missiles, howitzers and jet-bombers symbolising the power of the proletariat.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/Rote_armee_fraktion_logo.png/200px-Rote_armee_fraktion_logo.png (http://www.post-gazette.com/downloads/20020303clash.mp3)

:cheer: :yay: :rocker:


:rofl:

[cloakable]

Crapl. America is crap.

[Leftfield]

In short:
Politically: intolerant of other people and cultures that don't "fit in" to the American system or "way-of-life".
Socially: very risk-averse, very easily duped by television/news/marketing that is biased.
Economically: have too much money, buy into the "quick-fix", thus waste their money, waste resources producing unneeded good, throw away unneeded good, creates waste in itself. This is a fast and damaging cycle.
Religiously: the most religous and the least knowledgeable about evolution amongst the Western countries (bias schooling).

I could go on but this is my American opinion while living in Germany.

[Nighthawk]

I could go on but this is my American opinion while living in Germany.
Augsburg is a gorgeous town. I remember visiting there quite a bit when I lived in Germany in the mid-80's.

[Leftfield]

Augsburg is a gorgeous town. I remember visiting there quite a bit when I lived in Germany in the mid-80's.

Yeah, but it is also very religious and conservative too, crosses are everywhere even around the necks of women, ugh! A lot of the women have an egotistical attitude. It is very click-ish. Bavaria is nothing like the rest of Germany and should really be its own country. It is special in its own sense.

This city is very well maintained and very rich, thus beautiful; however, a lot of young kids aged 14-16 dress like up in dance/club clothes buy a crate of beer (20 x 0,5L) and drink it downtown from like every evening throughout every night, this looses the appeal a bit to me (16 to buy beer, 18 for hard alcohol and to get into a club, not really enforced). These are spoiled kids who don’t get it. München is awesome being just 70km east of here too.

[Claverhouse]

Bavaria is nothing like the rest of Germany and should really be its own country. It is special in its own sense.
Heavily disagreeing. In fact I was chatting about this to a (non-monarchist ) friend at the 1745 gathering a few days ago: although as a jacobite my King is presently the Wittelsbacher, whom God Preserve, I maintain that for Germany as a whole the semi-independent 5 monarchies in abeyance ( Bavaria, Saxony etc. ) should disappear and in the ( far ) future, Germany should be solely under the Hohenzollern dynasty.

England was once divided into 8 kingdoms: life got a lot better when Wessex took them all over.


This city is very well maintained and very rich, thus beautiful; however, a lot of young kids aged 14-16 dress like up in dance/club clothes buy a crate of beer (20 x 0,5L) and drink it downtown from like every evening throughout every night, this looses the appeal a bit to me (16 to buy beer, 18 for hard alcohol and to get into a club, not really enforced). These are spoiled kids who don’t get it. München is awesome being just 70km east of here too.
In Fort Augustus, there were kids drunk and shouting in the streets, but they weren't well-dressed or spoilt... There's just not much else to do.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[In...TP]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200509/s1454673.htm

[Claverhouse]

That's very sad, and might mean something to the non-Americans on this board if we had ever seen Gilligan's Island. Fortunately few of us have.

Is this some hidden metaphor for the Death of America ?


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[In...TP]

http://www.retrocrush.com/babes/dawn/gingervmaryann.html

A youth deprived of Gilligan's Island?

[Nighthawk]

Bavaria is nothing like the rest of Germany and should really be its own country. It is special in its own sense.

I remember Bavaria having it's own version of many of the federal agencies. Customs, border patrol, etc. Our soldiers used to call it the Texas of Germany.

[Claverhouse]

Oh, I see. Perhaps it was tolerable with the sound turned off...

And the lights.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Claverhouse]

Actually that was a cogent and well-argued double-essay, even on a subject of which I cannot judge the merits ( at a guess I'd go for Mary-Anne ). But going upstream I glanced at retroCrush front page and found a cute bit on WWII super-weapons, unrealised, but being detailed in a book: My Tank is Fight. Around the middle.

retroCrush Frontpage (http://www.retrocrush.com/)

with an email list for update info on the book: mailing list (http://www.somethingawful.com/booklist/booklist.htm)









The P. 1000 "Ratte" - A German super tank so large that it used a cruiser turret with two huge naval cannons.


The Seeteufel Submarine - A midget submarine with tank treads that could drive on land or along the bottom of rivers.


The Nazi Space Program - A multi-stage rocket booster, reusable spacecraft, and plans for an orbiting space station.








I've never heard of the Ratte, I thought the Maus was going it a bit too far...

Not that I'd say no.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[ Also there's a poll on who's best as Daisy in the Dukes of Hazard, another show time and place have denied me: nonetheless it was obviously JS. ]

[Jacque]

Amerika (http://www.rapira.ru/docs/mp3/06-Amerika.mp3)

We're all living in America,
America is wunderbar.
We're all living in America,
Amerika, Amerika.
We're all living in America,
Coca-Cola, Wonderbra,
We're all living in America,
Amerika, Amerika.

This is not a love song,
this is not a love song.
I don't sing my mother tongue,
No, this is not a love song.

We're all living in America,
Amerika is wunderbar.
We're all living in America,
Amerika, Amerika.
We're all living in America,
Coca-Cola, sometimes WAR,
We're all living in America,
Amerika, Amerika.

Strange how many Amerikans like Rammstein...