Education and forced attending.

[Star Cannon]

I am beginning to think that forcing students to attend school is the first mistake. It is not the student who decides to attend but the federal government has decided for them. Why do they require those that want to drop out to stay in? Thats one less student the teachers have to worry about! One less undesirable everyone has to put up with!

The atmosphere would drasticly improve. If those that drop soon discover the life without an education is undesirable for them, when then by god they can repeat the year and go on with a more ernest interest in learning.

Or... to make the lesson more harsh, we can make them start all over again. :devil:

[file cabinet]

I think it's a good idea but probably won't work in practice. oh well.

[Laeskis]

I think they should divide the classes...not throw everyone of every ability into one class; the learners on the low end of the curve drag the whole class down.

[Miss Padfoot]

I disagree. Had I had the option when I was younger, I might have dropped out of school and never known what I was missing, never gotten any degree of any kind, and been all but unable to get a good job. Besides, I think one of the worst things about America is the rampant ignorance. Can you imagine how much that would increase if we didn't make people stay in school?

[indczn]

The education system has so many flaws that "forced attendance" rates very low as to things that need to be fixed...

Besides, if they didnt force you to stay in, how could they brainwash you unsespectedly. :rant:

[Miss Padfoot]

Besides, if they didnt force you to stay in, how could they brainwash you unsespectedly. I hardly think schools are the most influential brainwashers in the world.

[indczn]

Besides, if they didnt force you to stay in, how could they brainwash you unsespectedly. I hardly think schools are the most influential brainwashers in the world.

Apparently, it seems to be working.

[Miss Padfoot]

Okay, give me an example of schools brainwashing someone.

BTW, may I assume you're referring to the public school system here?

[Laeskis]

If you don't eat your meat; you can't have any pudding.

[indczn]

Okay, give me an example of schools brainwashing someone.

BTW, may I assume you're referring to the public school system here?

Yes, the public school system is the main offender. Tell me, when were you taught "how to think?", as opposed to "what to think?" The current system follows the latter, and the only class I have taken that did the prior was highly exclusive.

The collegiate system is deteriorating as well. There is a reason why corporations want to see that degree of yours. It shows that you can stick with something thats a total waste of time for 4+ years and do well at it. Why would they train people when they get hired out of college? If college prepared them for the actual job, then this wouldnt be necessary.

[Laeskis]

...
Yes, the public school system is the main offender. Tell me, when were you taught "how to think?", as opposed to "what to think?" The current system follows the latter...

That's truth.

[Miss Padfoot]

Yes, the public school system is the main offender. Tell me, when were you taught "how to think?", as opposed to "what to think?" The current system follows the latter, and the only class I have taken that did the prior was highly exclusive.I don't go to public school. Never have. The school I've gone to since first grade is a college preparatory school, and it's excellent. The high school portion is especially good.

But my public school friends seem to be able to discuss things intelligently. I do think I've been lucky enough to get a better education than them, and I don't see quite the same clarity of thought in them as I do in my classmates, but I don't see anything wrong with the way they turned out.

What I wanted to know was, on what subjects do public schools try to brainwash students? History? Science?

[Laeskis]

Literature.
I've seen public school teachers give adverse grades not based on the style of writing, but on interpretation of the material.
Think what they think or get a lower grade.

[indczn]

^ english, its graded base on what the teaher thinks
History - History is taught from the perspective of the winners, AT first it was, America is great, we do everything right, this person is perfect etc. Granted, history is biased, but it is possible to teach from a more nuetral perspective. The essays that ive written for history is still what the teacher wants to hear.
Science - Its still how to think. All the labs are just repeating things that have been done. Its never, how science really works, just more facts that they decide are necessary. Im sure most people have had a science teacher that is religously biased in one way or another.
Math - Your not taught how to figure out how to solve problems, but rather heres the method, use it.

Everything is regurgitating what the teacher wants to hear, and there are very few exceptions, or it is formulatic in approach. Heres the method use it.

[Jezebel]

I'm for forced attendance for high school and below. Kids haven't experienced enough to make good decisions about their education. No offense, I know not everyone matures at the same rate, but deciding who has and who hasn't is subjective. I wouldn't take 14 year olds who decide that school sucks and they don't need to go anymore seriously. Yes, they may make a bad decision and want to go back later, but how many years will they waste before that happens? There's a reason kids don't have adult rights.

There's also a chance that it won't be the child's decision whether or not to attend. There are still parents out there that don't think education is important.

And personally, I'm with Miss Padfoot on this one-- I don't want to be surrounded by any more ignorance than I am already.

[sme_bro]

Once public schools no longer force attendance and no longer have state control then we will have a better education system. An open market of private schools is the best idea-why do people choose private schools if they can? because they provide a better education.

[Hazy]

I think School/University could more accurately be called 'socio-engineering'. It ensures that pre-existing roles are being filled and will continue to be filled. This of course means that any deviation from what's deemed acceptable can't really be judged by it.

As for teaching people 'how' to think, the majority of teachers just follow existing rules and regulations and haven't really been given insight into why those rules/regulations exist/work, so wouldn't even be able to if they were encouraged to do so.

I don't really think this socio-engineering aspect of education is an underhanded conspiracy though. It's probably more of an unconscious thing which hardly anybody even notices...

[HairlessBluetick]

I'm still undecided on this issue -- in spite of the fact that I dropped out after tenth grade. I still believe that was possibly the best decision I ever made. And I'm still, several years after, convinced that,yes, public schools do brainwash, and possibly do more harm than good. However, I'm also aware that in some ways the choice I made did limit my options... regardless it was MY choice and I'm proud of that fact.

[Laeskis]

I dunno about the brainwashing idea. I'm impervious to that sort of 'thing'
Do you suspect people are susceptible to brainwashing techniques?

[Kristi]

Personally, with two children in public high school, I think we need more options when it comes to our youth. My two children are very different, one fits just fine in the main stream, where one does not fit at all. We need a selection of schools so that each different type of child can excel. My son who is 15 just cannot sit and listen to the garbage that the teachers try to cram down his throat. He is a true independent thinker and they are trying to break him at every turn. I have seriously thought about taking him out of school myself and home schooling at work. At least here he can think and be free to have his own ideas on life.

[indczn]

I dunno about the brainwashing idea. I'm impervious to that sort of 'thing'
Do you suspect people are susceptible to brainwashing techniques?

I guess brainwashing is a very negative word to use about the subject. Society would cease to function properly if there were not and endless supply of people to fill specific roles, so it is needed for things to function properly. I guess the reason I find school to be so bothersome is that there are no alternatives. Sure you can drop out and do your own thing, but a person becomes automatically shunned by a majority of society who believe the necessity of that diploma.

I think that there needs to be a social adjustment in the perception of school to college. Its a mold, and they try to cram everyone through it, and quiet frankly, that does not and will never work for everyone. There needs to be more options. Trade schools, internship programs, specific career oriented paths that people can readily partake in. Right now, college is really the only choice, and society puts so much weight on the diploma that it is a necessity.

I've noticed a trend that alot of the smartest people are being left behind because of the current system. One of my friends couldn't even get into a state college (In AZ its incredibly easy) because his gpa was so low. He joined the navy because he literally had no options. This was the same kid that was doing obscure mathemetical proofs because he was bored out of his mind.

I perseonally would love to see a privatization of education. It will allow for a much greater diversity of what is offered, and specialized programs will result, as well as bare minimum programs to get people low end jobs. Where there is a demand, there will be someone willing to offer it.

Kristi: good luck with your independent thinker. Don't let him lose that ability.

[Laeskis]

I wonder if 'theme oriented' schools would be a good Idea.

[indczn]

I'd say something like that would be an improvement.

[Star Cannon]

I myself... have been lucky to get open ended/quality teachers.

But it's not the teacher, more likely the enviroment. I very glad to see that this have provoked thought, thought is good.

Quite honestly, if I had the role of improving public education I would have only the vaguest clue where to start: with the system or the school subjects themselves?

I have observed... I see the same thing from seventh grade as I do in tenth grade. I do not like this at all. The information is being bogged down by too much and there is no inovation, no variety, no... current information.

I think that the Illuminati can be traced to numerous problems with public education, and with the removal of the secret societies controlling the media, the government, the world in general that half the problem with education would be solved. The other half is dealing with the demoralising from all these years of incompetence and half-assed ciriculums.

So therefore start with the system first? Perhaps? All I know is that my education is useless in the modern world!

[Laeskis]

Well, let's start a fund to buy an island or two....maybe the Falklands...then we can populate it with people who know how to think and be done with public education.

[indczn]

Well, let's start a fund to buy an island or two....maybe the Falklands...then we can populate it with people who know how to think and be done with public education.

It would be difficult determining who knows how to think.

I know that i have learned 1000x more reading random things than i have learned currently in school.

Oh if anyone wants to write a fluffless testbook in outline form, please do it! I can't stand how much crap is in these books. It takes them 500 pages to talk about information that can be done in 50.
Damn mindless memorization. Yes pavlov had a dog... no i dont care.

[Misty_Kye]

I love to learn but hated school. I would rather have sat in the library and had someone who I could ask questions. However, my use of English would then be much worse then it is.

I agree with forced attending, but wish our public schools recognized more then one personality type.

[Miss Padfoot]

I agree with forced attending, but wish our public schools recognized more then one personality type.
What personality type do you think they recognize?

[Misty_Kye]

I agree with forced attending, but wish our public schools recognized more then one personality type.
What personality type do you think they recognize?

I think schools are built around ESTJ's and that most of the teachers are ESTJ's as well. Not ALL classes but a vast majority.

I lost the computer at home and saw this during lunchbreak at work. I can't go into detail at this time. Should be back on line next week sometime.

[Utopmk]

If you don't eat your meat; you can't have any pudding.

LOL

I never did a damn thing in school, partly because I was forced to be there.

Everything I know I learned by myself. It may not be much, but I alone got to savor the knowledge of my choice, rather than having it stuffed down my throat.

[HairlessBluetick]

If you don't eat your meat; you can't have any pudding.

LOL

I never did a damn thing in school, partly because I was forced to be there.

Everything I know I learned by myself. It may not be much, but I alone got to savor the knowledge of my choice, rather than having it stuffed down my throat.

I second that.

[giftedmadness@hotmail.com]

Look at Canada's health system. Look at the public housing in the United States. Read Milton Friedman's FREE TO CHOOSE. It talks about the unintended consequences brought on by any kind of system with centralized control.

[Arcael]

I think you should be forced up until your like 13 or 14 (Junior High), then the student should be able to go at their own pace based on there likes and dislikes.




I agree with forced attending, but wish our public schools recognized more then one personality type.
What personality type do you think they recognize?

I think schools are built around ESTJ's and that most of the teachers are ESTJ's as well. Not ALL classes but a vast majority.

I lost the computer at home and saw this during lunchbreak at work. I can't go into detail at this time. Should be back on line next week sometime.

I know my favorite teachers were NT's, one was my Senior English Teacher, the other was my College Physical Chemistry Teacher. I definitely clicked in to what they were doing alot easier than any other course I had taken up to this point in my life. Would have been nice to have all NT teachers :D

[Misty_Kye]

I know my favorite teachers were NT's, one was my Senior English Teacher, the other was my College Physical Chemistry Teacher. I definitely clicked in to what they were doing a lot easier than any other course I had taken up to this point in my life. Would have been nice to have all NT teachers :D

Exactly.
The only "A" I ever received in English (except for lit) was from an NT teacher. That was also the easiest English course I ever took. Like you said I seemed to click with the teacher.

It seems like everything else in school was very regimented. Here's your book, listen to the lesson (don't interrupt) and take the test. There was no room to explore the interesting parts, no way for me to work on something else when I got bored. :rant:

I was referred to a psychologist in 4th grade. After 8 weeks she finally told me that I was there because I was daydreaming in class. I was stunned. I told her that I love to daydream, but I had resolved to not do that in school. I just get bored a lot; since I couldn't daydream I would just play with a Math or Science problem in my head so I didn't disrupt class. She gave me the strangest look. That was my last session.

[Tranzors]

Independent study works for INTPs. Plus it's easy.

[candela]

Because kids don't know what they want. Plus they need an excuse to lock up and brain wash kids.

[Nighthawk]

^ english, its graded base on what the teaher thinks
History - History is taught from the perspective of the winners, AT first it was, America is great, we do everything right, this person is perfect etc. Granted, history is biased, but it is possible to teach from a more nuetral perspective. The essays that ive written for history is still what the teacher wants to hear.
Science - Its still how to think. All the labs are just repeating things that have been done. Its never, how science really works, just more facts that they decide are necessary. Im sure most people have had a science teacher that is religously biased in one way or another.
Math - Your not taught how to figure out how to solve problems, but rather heres the method, use it.

Everything is regurgitating what the teacher wants to hear, and there are very few exceptions, or it is formulatic in approach. Heres the method use it.

I agree. Its because most elementary and secondary school teachers are Guardians. They stick to what has been done before and everything else is wrong. Not a lot of room for free thought and creativity there. I wonder how many really intelligent NTs and NFs have been branded as "slow" because the teacher just didn't understand what they were talking about. Society has trouble understanding both ends of the bell curve. I'd also wager that most of the ADD kids are really Artisans who have no patience for the "hands off" learning style our schools perpetuate.

[xenose]

School provides a form of "babysitting" too. If kids were not required to attend school, they would be out on the streets and in town creating havoc and mayhem brought on by boredom and lack of structure.

The school system may have its faults, but the lack of it would lead to utter chaos and a whole range of new social problems.

[Eileen]

I think that there are very few teachers who get into teaching with the purpose of breaking children in mind. Forgive my defensiveness, but I *am* a teacher. It's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. I haven't seen it in this thread, but I will send out a big "fuck off" to anybody who says "those who can't do teach" because most people wouldn't be able to do my job. Spend a week with my fourth period class. They'll show you. I spend a great deal of time trying to help children not break themselves (and praying that they won't break me), partially by offering up what I have: lessons in reading, writing, coming to conclusions, and taking responsibility.

There are many problems with the system. Many, many, many. I bet you that I can list a whole lot more than a lot of you can, because I know what the problems are that hurt the students *and* the problems that hurt the teachers. The tests are horrible--they do not raise standards; they lower them and take freedom away from teachers. Compulsory attendance... I think this is necessary. It's also highly problematic, especially once you try to keep of-age kids from dropping out if they're hell-bent on that. They disrupt the environment and make it difficult for other kids to learn. I don't know what to do with them, and they are very much my problem. I could do a hell of a lot more teaching how to think if I didn't have to spend thirty or forty percent of my time disciplining kids who have no fucking clue how to behave in a public forum.

One of the big problems is that parents don't take responsibility for their children. I teach high school, and the kids think they're grown, partially because their parents don't exercise any control over them whatsoever. This is HARMFUL to children, and if you don't believe me, come to where I am and watch them shoot each other with guns at night on the street, where they are because their parents don't require them to be in the house at a reasonable hour. Children need structure, and a lot of parents these days have deprived them of it.

I don't mean that children need oppressive structure--give them plenty of opportunities to use their imaginations and minds (take away the goddamn television), but they DO need rules. INTPs don't like to hear this, generally, and chalk it up to socialization and brainwashing. But here's the fact of the matter: they are individuals--unique and beautiful snowflakes and whatnot, sure--but they are also part of humanity, society. You aren't born knowing how to navigate the peopled world--you have to be taught. It's truly preferable if parents teach their children this.

Yes--the system DOES need changes. Teachers need to be encouraged to be innovative, to address diverse learning styles (and we ARE encouraged to do this, incidentally, and every teacher who has come out of the university system recently has been taught all about it), to teach concepts and how to apply them rather than just works (for English teachers), to come to original conclusions and support them with evidence. MANY TEACHERS ARE ALREADY DOING THIS, OR TRYING TO. But without the support of administrators (which can definitely be a problem) and parents, a teacher cannot do her job, because she cannot be expected to teach her subject area AND be the sole disciplinarian of the child. It's lunacy, what people expect of teachers.

[Shai Gar]

i hate our maths classes, THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO DO THIS SUM.
yes i know you devised an easier way of doing it that works 100% of the time, but do it my way or you dont pass.

and english, FUCKING ADVERTISING?

science, FUCKING SOAP?

Geography, pretty cool

legal studies, very cool, but i have an NF teacher who understands how to teach me.

Modern History, the teacher and i disagree on just about everything, but she doesnt mark me down on it, especially since i back up all of my points.

[MasterMerk]

Oh shai? Your doing surfactants too? Awesome!

Science is my best subject ONLY because of my cute-as-fuck ENFP teacher. Hot damn.

[Pedro_The_Lion]

We force people to stay in school? The drop out rate at my high school was at least 25%.

Schools don't necessarily "brainwash" but they frame the debate and thus stifle development.

Open systems are generally better than closed for innovation. Closed are better for maintaining stability.

[Architectonic]

I'm glad I live in a civilized country. ;)

Whether school should be compulsory or not is the real issue. The real issue is why students want to drop out at an early age. The reality is that the school system is currently very inefficient and does not benefit the students as much as it should. One of the big issues is what to teach whom. Much of the education system needs to be restructured to actually suit the individual students needs.

The privatisation and free choice won't necessarily solve any problems either because the alternatives aren't necessarily that great either. The education system is about educating students, not making money - I don't see privatisation making the revolutionary changes required.

But I do have confidence that the education system (at least in some western countries) will change dramatically in my lifetime.

[Eileen]

Modern History, the teacher and i disagree on just about everything, but she doesnt mark me down on it, especially since i back up all of my points.

That's an example of a good teacher.

[Eileen]

Whether school should be compulsory or not is the real issue. The real issue is why students want to drop out at an early age. The reality is that the school system is currently very inefficient and does not benefit the students as much as it should. One of the big issues is what to teach whom. Much of the education system needs to be restructured to actually suit the individual students needs.

North Carolina is taking steps to make changes like this. I sort of suspect it will be a disaster, but I agree with the philosophies behind it. In my county, they're talking about having what I've heard termed "high schools of choice" which would be directed at career goals, and there would be more career-related curricula... The idea is to have more application-based learning and to integrate in whenever possible what the students' interests are--like music into math, etc. I think that will be hugely demanding on teachers--but maybe if we make this big switch, a couple of good things can happen... perhaps shifting the system will give administrators a chance to restructure how they handle discipline (right now, the kids sort of run the school I'm at and it's pretty frustrating for a teacher) and perhaps teachers will have a chance to choose (though I'm skeptical about it) which of the learning environments THEY are best suited to teach.

One of the problems, though, is that I have heard a lot of talk of eliminating traditional English education for some kids--reading magazines and instruction manuals instead of Shakespeare. I think it's fair to include that stuff, but not at the cost of excluding classic literature. I think students will majorly lose out if they aren't exposed to great art. Sure, some of them will hate it because they hate being "forced," but some of them will never, ever read a book if they aren't assigned one (and some of them will never, ever read a book even if they are).

[Thermo]

I think most INTPs are going to have a problem with school, because it is a institution designed for conformity and rote memorization pretty much from elementary to high school. I found college much more enjoyable, because there were more choices and intellectual freedom. While I think children should be required to go to school, I think there are many ways to make it more interesting and a better learning experience.

I went to a college that had a elementary school major and I used to laugh my head off when I was pulling an all nighter to read Nietzche or Peter Novak and they were staying up all night cutting construction paper.

My suggested changes:
1.) EQUALITY - Equal distribution of educational money. It isn't fair for middle and upper class children to get a better education that poor children. This is my biggest complaint.

2.) PRACTICALITY - I am still pissed I spent a week learning venn diagrams that have no practical value. I remember in the second grade spending time in math to balance a checkbook. It taught math and an application. THat makes sense.

3.) NO ARTS - Arts and Music have no place in public schools. They are a waste of time and a personal outlet. It should be parents responsibility to teach that. My tax dollars shouldn't have to pay for something useless. You could lump in minority studies as well.

4.) PHILOSOPHY and GREECE CULTURE - I am a firm believer that ethics and philosophy can make people more ethical and logical. Everyone should be required to read and have a basic grasp of Socrates and Aristotle.

5.) FINANCIAL - Everyone should understand how personal finance works and what good choices are. This is completely absent in the american system.

6.) SELF DEFENSE - Everyone should know how to defend themself in a self defense situation with competence unarmed, armed and with a gun.

7.) SWIMMING - everyone should know how to swim.

8.) CARS - Everyone should know how to drive.

[Eileen]

I went to a college that had a elementary school major and I used to laugh my head off when I was pulling an all nighter to read Nietzche or Peter Novak and they were staying up all night cutting construction paper.


Mmmmm, intellectual elitism.

While Elementary Ed majors always kind of weirded me out, they worked damn hard and they know a hell of a lot more about children than I do. So they don't necessarily read Nietzche. They do necessarily read John Dewey and Howard Gardner and THEY actually use what they learn in a practical way.

I won't address your suggestions right now (sleeeeeepppyyyy and tomorrow I need to get my ass out of bed on *my spring vacation* and grade papers), but I will. Oh, I will. Some are good suggestions and some are emphatically not.

[Eileen]

Couldn't wait.


1.) EQUALITY - Equal distribution of educational money. It isn't fair for middle and upper class children to get a better education that poor children. This is my biggest complaint.

I totally agree with this point. It’s pretty fucked up that property taxes often fund schools... that they do shows a certain agenda of the larger society—to keep the poor and uneducated...poor and uneducated.

2.) PRACTICALITY - I am still pissed I spent a week learning venn diagrams that have no practical value. I remember in the second grade spending time in math to balance a checkbook. It taught math and an application. THat makes sense.

Well... Venn diagrams DO have practical value, in that they teach a thinking skill, which is comparison and contrast. I use Venn diagrams in English class all the time, and it’s a good tool that helps students sort out their thoughts and form coherent arguments of comparison and contrast. I do agree that there needs to be a lot more practical application in all subject areas. HOWEVER (and this does relate a little to your next point, in my opinion), I do not think this means that we need to get rid of teaching the things that not everybody sees an immediate use for... such as ditching Macbeth for an operation manual. Some things genuinely enrich character.


3.) NO ARTS - Arts and Music have no place in public schools. They are a waste of time and a personal outlet. It should be parents responsibility to teach that. My tax dollars shouldn't have to pay for something useless. You could lump in minority studies as well.

This is the thing that I find to suck.

First of all, I don’t think that minority studies has much at all to do with arts and music, except that it is a humanities subject. And if you talk about banning humanities, you damn well better watch out, because there goes English and History and (ahem) Philosophy.

Second of all, do some research on the effect(s) of arts in the classroom. Arts are NOT merely a “personal outlet.” They teach creative thinking (especially visual art) and analytical thinking (especially music and theatre). Furthermore, there are many forms of literacy and schools should try to cultivate as many as possible. Being knowledgeable about art, music, theatre, film, etc IS a type of literacy. There are plenty of studies to show that there are correlations between high test scores and good arts education. Arts also enrich character.

(Incidentally, the same argument that you use for this could be used for physical education and sports. I don't buy that either, even though I HATED PE.)

4.) PHILOSOPHY and GREECE CULTURE - I am a firm believer that ethics and philosophy can make people more ethical and logical. Everyone should be required to read and have a basic grasp of Socrates and Aristotle.

I don’t have much of a problem with it, except that I think it’s pretty clear that you’re trying to propagate a certain culture. I don’t know why you should teach Greek culture and ignore... say... African American culture or Mexican culture or Japanese culture (depending on the population). I’m not saying DON’T teach Greek culture (though... wouldn’t a good basic World History class cover Greek culture sufficiently....? just asking... there is some tongue-in-cheekness here...). I'm just saying there's no good reason to focus on Greek culture specially.

I think it would be fantastic to teach Philosophy, though. I’d like to see kids get a more global perspective on it, though. I also think that schools should have religious studies classes. I have a whole spiel about this.

5.) FINANCIAL - Everyone should understand how personal finance works and what good choices are. This is completely absent in the american system.

It’s probably a good idea, but it makes me personally want to puke. But then, I hate personal finance. I’d rather ignore it. I probably could have benefited from something like this.

6.) SELF DEFENSE - Everyone should know how to defend themself in a self defense situation with competence unarmed, armed and with a gun.

I think this could be incorporated into health and PE--like some kind of martial arts unit or course. HOWEVER, I do not think schools need to be teaching anything about guns. My kids KNOW how to use guns. They’re shooting and killing each other. THIS, I think parents and other community interests should handle. Schools can't be all things to all people, and this is one of the areas where I think schools need to step back from. This is just not our (meaning educators') responsibility.


7.) SWIMMING - everyone should know how to swim.

Okay. I don’t necessarily think it should be required, but I am certainly not opposed to it being available. I did learn to swim in third grade, though. Don’t know if they still do that in this county.

8.) CARS - Everyone should know how to drive.

Okay. I presume you mean drivers ed and not automotive maintenance (although I don’t think that would be a bad idea either). It’s usually offered at the high school level, but as an after school class (which I think is perfectly fair. Parents have the right to decide whether their child takes this class).

[Biff_Loman]

All of Eileen's comments about the position of teachers are, in my limited experience, highly accurate.

Most people couldn't teach - at least not while maintaining any quality of life. I couldn't. I have the piece of paper that indicates I'm trained to teach, but there's no possible way I could pull it off without losing my mind.

As for the system: John Taylor Gatto says it better than I ever could.

[Miss Anthropic]

i hate our maths classes, THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO DO THIS SUM.
yes i know you devised an easier way of doing it that works 100% of the time, but do it my way or you dont pass.

and english, FUCKING ADVERTISING?

science, FUCKING SOAP?

Geography, pretty cool

legal studies, very cool, but i have an NF teacher who understands how to teach me.

Modern History, the teacher and i disagree on just about everything, but she doesnt mark me down on it, especially since i back up all of my points.

Are you glad you went back?

[Thermo]

I totally agree with this point. It’s pretty fucked up that property taxes often fund schools... that they do shows a certain agenda of the larger society—to keep the poor and uneducated...poor and uneducated.
I told you I believe in equality particularly in education. I consider education the most important service the government offers. I read something like every 10 cents on education saves 30 cents on crime.





This is the thing that I find to suck.

First of all, I don’t think that minority studies has much at all to do with arts and music, except that it is a humanities subject. And if you talk about banning humanities, you damn well better watch out, because there goes English and History and (ahem) Philosophy.

Second of all, do some research on the effect(s) of arts in the classroom. Arts are NOT merely a “personal outlet.” They teach creative thinking (especially visual art) and analytical thinking (especially music and theatre). Furthermore, there are many forms of literacy and schools should try to cultivate as many as possible. Being knowledgeable about art, music, theatre, film, etc IS a type of literacy. There are plenty of studies to show that there are correlations between high test scores and good arts education. Arts also enrich character.

(Incidentally, the same argument that you use for this could be used for physical education and sports. I don't buy that either, even though I HATED PE.)
Maybe if they spent the time wasted on the arts and english, to some extent, on teaching math, science, philosophy, personal finance, physical education, martial arts, and history the scores would be higher and people would be more efficient and productive.




I don’t have much of a problem with it, except that I think it’s pretty clear that you’re trying to propagate a certain culture. I don’t know why you should teach Greek culture and ignore... say... African American culture or Mexican culture or Japanese culture (depending on the population). I’m not saying DON’T teach Greek culture (though... wouldn’t a good basic World History class cover Greek culture sufficiently....? just asking... there is some tongue-in-cheekness here...). I'm just saying there's no good reason to focus on Greek culture specially.

I think it would be fantastic to teach Philosophy, though. I’d like to see kids get a more global perspective on it, though. I also think that schools should have religious studies classes. I have a whole spiel about this.
Separation of church and state is a big issue. Public institutions should not include religion. Greek culture was the height of western culture.

Since I live in the United States, a western nation, I think that should be mush more emphasis on western culture. World culture and history are important, too, but with limited time should be much less emphasised. I would like to see 50% greek culture, philosophy and history, 25% US and 25% everything else. This should be taught starting in elementary school.




It’s probably a good idea, but it makes me personally want to puke. But then, I hate personal finance. I’d rather ignore it. I probably could have benefited from something like this.
The fact is the United States has serious credit problems. I personally burned through a good deal of money learning my lessons. This is a critical life skill everyone should have. If we teach people enough to be savy about maintaining finances, our country will be much stronger economically. It will also have a political impact. People will not accept massive George Bush deficits if they understand the benefits of good financial planning.




I think this could be incorporated into health and PE--like some kind of martial arts unit or course. HOWEVER, I do not think schools need to be teaching anything about guns. My kids KNOW how to use guns. They’re shooting and killing each other. THIS, I think parents and other community interests should handle. Schools can't be all things to all people, and this is one of the areas where I think schools need to step back from. This is just not our (meaning educators') responsibility.
Self defense is a critical skill. People should know how to properly operate and maintain firearms. It is more than just point and shoot.



Okay. I don’t necessarily think it should be required, but I am certainly not opposed to it being available. I did learn to swim in third grade, though. Don’t know if they still do that in this county.
I have met a bunch of adults who can't swim. I was a lifeguard and I think this is important.




Okay. I presume you mean drivers ed and not automotive maintenance (although I don’t think that would be a bad idea either). It’s usually offered at the high school level, but as an after school class (which I think is perfectly fair. Parents have the right to decide whether their child takes this class).
I think this should be required to graduate high school and part of the ciriculum.

[Eileen]

Maybe if they spent the time wasted on the arts and english, to some extent, on teaching math, science, philosophy, personal finance, physical education, martial arts, and history the scores would be higher and people would be more efficient and productive.


Probably not, as they would be lacking in critical thinking and communication skills. Students need to learn to engage with texts and USE their language.

An objective of education is also character development, which English and arts classes offer a great deal of.

Again, I challenge you to do some research on this subject before you toss out humanities.



Separation of church and state is a big issue. Public institutions should not include religion.


You may or may not see the essay that I have attached to this entry. It addresses this topic and explains why the academic study of religions/religious history is not a constitutional problem. I don't actually care to digress into a discussion about this, but the research I've done on the topic is in that paper.



Greek culture was the height of western culture.


That's a quaint idea.



Since I live in the United States, a western nation, I think that should be mush more emphasis on western culture. World culture and history are important, too, but with limited time should be much less emphasised. I would like to see 50% greek culture, philosophy and history, 25% US and 25% everything else. This should be taught starting in elementary school.


I think that students should learn how to think critically; this can be taught in any existing subject area. They should also learn to read, write, perform basic necessary math skills, do research, and work independently and in groups. They need to know what's going on and what has gone on IN THE WORLD, because while we're a Western culture, the world is shrinking and it's becoming more and more important that people know what's happening and why. I do think teaching US History is essential (in America, obviously). Beyond that, it looks to me like you're trying to preserve some kind of pure, idealized culture that does not exist in America.




Self defense is a critical skill. People should know how to properly operate and maintain firearms. It is more than just point and shoot.


I think other institutions besides public schools should handle this one. I agree that it is an important skill, but I don't think that it's necessary for schools to take on that responsibility. Parents can teach that, or other community interests.

[Thermo]

Probably not, as they would be lacking in critical thinking and communication skills. Students need to learn to engage with texts and USE their language.

An objective of education is also character development, which English and arts classes offer a great deal of.

Again, I challenge you to do some research on this subject before you toss out humanities.
I challenge you to support your own argument.




You may or may not see the essay that I have attached to this entry. It addresses this topic and explains why the academic study of religions/religious history is not a constitutional problem. I don't actually care to digress into a discussion about this, but the research I've done on the topic is in that paper.
If you don't want to discuss it, why should I read your paper?




That's a quaint idea.
It is a matter of opinion, no doubt you have some PC objection. The greeks had many achievements not duplicated in other parts of the world.




I think that students should learn how to think critically; this can be taught in any existing subject area. They should also learn to read, write, perform basic necessary math skills, do research, and work independently and in groups. They need to know what's going on and what has gone on IN THE WORLD, because while we're a Western culture, the world is shrinking and it's becoming more and more important that people know what's happening and why. I do think teaching US History is essential (in America, obviously). Beyond that, it looks to me like you're trying to preserve some kind of pure, idealized culture that does not exist in America.
I do think world history should be taught and American history, but my opinion is that all that should be rooted in a deep understanding of the Greeks. They had some of the best philosophers, one of the earliest editions of the bible, etc, and the roots of our western culture.





I think other institutions besides public schools should handle this one. I agree that it is an important skill, but I don't think that it's necessary for schools to take on that responsibility. Parents can teach that, or other community interests.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Most people don't take the time to educate themselves on self defense and live in fear or wont know how to handle a real self defense situation. Your life could depend on it!

I think if we did this, it would reduce crime, because everyone has a certain level of self defense. I will dig up some related statistics.

[coffeezombie]

I do think world history should be taught and American history, but my opinion is that all that should be rooted in a deep understanding of the Greeks. They had some of the best philosophers, one of the earliest editions of the bible, etc, and the roots of our western culture.


I think they bickered with each other and went to war a lot from what I remember studying. How is this different from studying any other culture? And how is learning Plato's allegory of the cave going to help us out compared to learning any other country's (like Germany, France, England, even American political) philosophy. I think Vagabond, who knows more about the Greeks than you and me combined, will be the first to tell you that studying the Greeks does not automatically make one an educated and intelligent citizen of the world.

[Eileen]

I challenge you to support your own argument.

Fine.

We teach humans, not machines. In addition to producing "productive and effective" members of the workforce, education's goal is to produce well-rounded people of good character. Arts and humanities directly target the character component. If you read Macbeth, you consider the problem of hubris, of dishonesty, of manipulative behavior, etc. In arts/humanities, children can see humanity in action, make connections between behaviors and responses (invaluable skill), and see what humans are capable of cross-cultures (good and bad--it's all in literature).

Furthermore, art and humanities (especially English and foreign language in a very practical way) teach communication skills, which is more important than probably anything you've put forth. Again, we're teaching humans and humans have to communicate with other humans in order to get anything done in this universe.

Art and humanties also encourage innovative and creative thinking.

Music in particular teaches teamwork.

Art and humanities also make the world more beautiful and pleasant, and children should be exposed to the good things in the world. That's idealistic, but no moreso than your Greek fixation.

(Oh, and I highly doubt that the study of philosophy would make people any more productive and efficient. I don't think that we should throw out the idea on that basis, though.)




If you don't want to discuss it, why should I read your paper?


I don't care whether you read the paper. I'm offering information for you to consider--specifically, why it's not a constitutional problem. You can take it or leave it. You categorically dismiss everything that you see as "PC," and that is an obstacle that I am absolutely not willing to try to surmount with you because I have better things to do, like educate the youth of America and hopefully along the way make them better, more tolerant people who communicate ethically.

I will not be addressing the Greek thing any more, because I know exactly where that discussion will lead--right back to an argument over political correctness (because that's your catch-all phrase for any liberal thinking that you disagree with).

[Dunearhp]

2.) PRACTICALITY - I am still pissed I spent a week learning venn diagrams that have no practical value. I remember in the second grade spending time in math to balance a checkbook. It taught math and an application. THat makes sense.

Two math professors were talking to each other. One asked the other "What do you do when your students ask what a particular technique is really useful for?". The second replied "I tell them."

The fault is not that you were taught Venn diagrams. The problem is that you weren't told what they were for.



3.) NO ARTS - Arts and Music have no place in public schools. They are a waste of time and a personal outlet. It should be parents responsibility to teach that. My tax dollars shouldn't have to pay for something useless. You could lump in minority studies as well.

If you subtract all personal outlets from the curriculum then the students end up with deadened minds. One of my favourite subjects in high school was manual arts (metalwork). Noisy, simple, requires focus. I always finished the lesson feeling refreshed. A ball pein hammer is a remarkably therapeutic device.
Just because they are not your preferred outlets, does not mean they have no value.
Most parents are not qualified to teach these things.



4.) PHILOSOPHY and GREECE CULTURE - I am a firm believer that ethics and philosophy can make people more ethical and logical. Everyone should be required to read and have a basic grasp of Socrates and Aristotle.


Socrates and Aristotle deserve maybe a couple of hours. Then you can go on to teach the students about the philosophers that followed, like Hume, Occam , Hobbes, Machiavelli etc.
Make it clear that philosophy does not require a toga. That the greek reliance on rhetoric impeded the rise of the scientific method centuries later. Let the students see that the philosophers were fighting intellectual war, and still are. Let them know that they can choose their own sides.

This all requires the critical thinking that they should have aquired from english, of course.

[Eileen]

Just because they are not your preferred outlets, does not mean they have no value.


*gasp*

*disbelief*


... what???

[Dunearhp]

:confused:

[Eileen]

:confused:
:hug:

It was my sarcastic way of giving you props for saying something completely and totally obvious that Thermo has historically had a pretty difficult time grasping.

[Dunearhp]

8O

(Apologies to those with low flippancy threshold.)