The Hero or The Idiot?

[nobarcode]

You personally, not your judgment of others.

[int]

I believe my wife's life is more important than mine, so I'd lay down my own if I had to, to save her's. Is that what you mean?

[Vagabond]

Where is the "depends" option? :rant:

[Avengardh]

Where is the "depends" option? :rant:

Ditto.

[nobarcode]

"You" don't have that option.

[Claverhouse]

Hero.

But not if it's a really, really silly belief.

Not merely according to the World's estimation, but say, according to nature's own.


Claverhouse :ph34r:


Such as say dying because Dr. Jones told you to drink cyanide for his cult.

[CosmicDust]

If I sacrifice my life for a mere *belief,* I'm an idiot.

If I sacrifice my life for a damn good chance of saving someone else's, THEN I'm a hero.

[Johnny]

What happened to the "Not Enough Information" option?

[nobarcode]

"You" don't have that option. :D

[Division56]

*ponders adding the option*

*wanders away*

[nobarcode]

*ponders adding the option*

*wanders away*
*ponders Division adding option*




That would really fuck things up, let it ride for awhile. ;)

[jimkopelli]

I couldn't go on believing whatever it is if I'm dead.

[Google Monster]

i clicked hero, but if there was a "dead" option i would have clicked that.

[file cabinet]

what I believe is in important but not important enough to die over. I heard a story once where some militants had 5 religious ppl rounded up and were planning on killing them. they asked each of them to renounce God and all the christian "leaders" renounced Jesus.. except for one girl who said she believed or something so the militants killed all of the people who had renounced God leaving the girl behind. Funny story.. but I'm sure you can find stories where all of them were massacred in similar scenarios so the above story is an outliar and not really an act of an intervening being... so uh.. yeah, idiot. I also don't believe anything that I consider worth dying for... at least for the moment.

[Johnny]

I would call myself an idiot then if I didn't have the "not enough information" option to consider. If I ever did sacrifice my life as a result of my belief, I would have no interest in doing so to pay Hero Club member dues.

I'll let some other idiot make me an honorary member... :sombrero:

[Google Monster]

Well if one did it to maintain thier priciples and beliefs then that action is considered a heroic action. The only way I would consider that action an act of idiocy is if the sacrifice was a failure.

[Claverhouse]

A royalist must always be prepared to die for his King. There is no other concept I would normally die for as a matter of loyalty since things like 'Peoples' or Nations' or 'The Flag' are mere abstracts. A monarch is a real person, worthy or unworthy.

Ideas like 'Communism', 'Democracy', 'Nazism', 'Christianity', Islam' are not worthy of the thought. The first three aren't even worthy of momentary contemplation. However, if I did belong to an organised religion such as Christianity, then failing torture, I would accept death from mere obstinacy. I greatly dislike people instructing me.

One might be induced to die to save one's family: but that would depend greatly on the quality of the family.

However, there is a nobility in dying whilst fighting for a cause: such as the girl who was run over whilst protesting against the treatment of animals in live transport over here; and this would apply to lesser causes as well, such as dying while demonstrating against the Raj as one of Ghandi's mob, or even for one's belief in Communism or Nazism if sincerely held and against a merciless enemy. One has to respect any human being's principles. But this is not the same thing as being a hero.

But there again, one shouldn't confuse the concept of being a hero with the same thing as performing an heroic act.

Fr'instance: soldiers in battle quite frequently do heroic things, saving their comrades etc.: this doesn't mean they are all heroes as the popular press generally exclaims { nor indeed that these acts nor the genuine heroes are all on one side: after all, Saddam's sons, and grandson, and an unidentified chap, performed the most heroic act of the entire Gulf War II: but the first two were sufficiently vile, according to what we are told, as to disqualify them from ever being heroes }.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Google Monster]

If the question was if we were considered a hero by others then both answers can be correct and wrong. One man's hero should be anothers idiot.

[Vagabond]

"You" don't have that option.
Then "you" don't have our reply. ;P

[Crazy]

Let's break this down shall we.

If "you" sacrifice "your" life as a result of "your" belief, would "you" consider yourself a hero or an idiot?

I shall start with "you sacrifice your life".
I take this statement as a concious, willing act. There was a choice between life and death.

"as a result of your beliefs"
death is caused solely from holding to be true something that you have no ability to prove empirically.

So the question asks "Do you think yourself an idiot or a hero for willingly dying for something you hold to be true, but to not have empirical evidence to back it up?"

I do not think anyone would consider themself an idiot for dying for something they consider worth dying for. If they did, they wouldn't have chosen to die for it in the first place.

As far as the Idiot or Hero part goes, they are not opposites, nor at different ends of a spectrum. There are many heroes that were/are idiots. It doesn't take wisdom or intelligence to jump on a grenade in order to save ones comrades.

I voted hero, because I understand the available answers to mean that an idiot in these terms would be someone who made the wrong decision, and a hero would be someone who made the right decision. If I believed something was worth dying for, I would consider sacrificing my life for such a cause a good decision, if it was absolutely neccessary, and that is the only case in which I would sacrifice my life for a belief.

Note: when I say absolutely neccessary, I mean in a situation where the only options are die or denouncing my beliefs.

[KentOhio]

Ever hear of the Puritan guy who was put to death because he refused to shave off his beard? It happened long long ago in Massachusetts, I think. He died for his belief that men should be able to wear beards. Was he a hero or an idiot?

[Star Cannon]

If it was for a current religion, yeah I'd be the biggest fool out there packing dynamite and some heavy duty explosive plutonium. ;-P *just kidding, of course

[Claverhouse]

Never heard of him, and to my understanding all puritans ought to be put to death on general principles anyway, however: he was not a hero, because the cause was not massive, and dying alone is not enough for heroism; but he was not an idiot because he was right to die for his freedom: no-one has the right to dictate another's tastes or appearance. He Did the Right Thing.

I admire his obstinacy.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Claverhouse]

In Massachusetts ?

Well, puritans no doubt liked to persecute each other when there wasn't a Quaker nearby.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[GraviTass]

If everyone laughs after you have topped yourself - then go figure !

[GraviTass]

Oh , and the dead loose the ability to hear , I think !

[booyalab]

Has anyone read any Kierkegaard? I think he understands that dilemma best. He calls that mindset the 'ethical stage' and says that when you make the leap of faith to a belief system, all of your decision-making rides on that belief system and it doesn't matter what people who are in a different 'life stage' (aesthetic or religious) think about your choice.

Basically you can't judge someone's extreme life-altering choice in that way because first of all Hero is not the diametric opposite of Idiot, so the question doesn't even make sense, and second of all I believe you can only criticize them on the basis of THEIR belief system and insofar as to not stray from your belief system.

[cloakable]

i clicked hero, but if there was a "dead" option i would have clicked that.

:D

It depends on the belief, but I put idiot, anyway. Sacrificing your life (in my view) is stupid.

[Johnny]

Kierkegaard...says that when you make the leap of faith to a belief system...it doesn't matter what people...think about your choice.

I've read Kierkegaard, and to me he does a great deal of judging. But if he claimed that performing such an act doesn't make sense, it is because Kierkegaard questions whether such a command came directly from God.

If it did come from God, then that person would be a hero in Kierkegaard's eyes. A rational explanation for such a sacrifice would be unnecessary as you suggest. To Kierkegaard, that's God's problem... :sombrero:

[s]

I chose "hero." I would rather be remembered as a hero, than an idiot and I am eventually going to die. I would rather die worthy of respectful remembrance and gain a tiny piece of immortality.

Besides, I am Wonder Woman.

[Claverhouse]

second of all I believe you can only criticize them on the basis of THEIR belief system and insofar as to not stray from your belief system.


Yeah, but, occasionally kids have knocked themselves off because their favourite pop-star was getting married. Some belief-systems are beneath contempt. ( Like in democracy ).



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[greenintp]

My beliefs change almost on a daily basis. Therefore it would make me... an idiot.

[Vagabond]

I chose "hero." I would rather be remembered as a hero, than an idiot and I am eventually going to die. I would rather die worthy of respectful remembrance and gain a tiny piece of immortality.
That's weird, I am the other way around. I don't give a crap about being remembered. It won't do *me* any good anyway.

[s]

I chose "hero." I would rather be remembered as a hero, than an idiot and I am eventually going to die. I would rather die worthy of respectful remembrance and gain a tiny piece of immortality.
That's weird, I am the other way around. I don't give a crap about being remembered. It won't do *me* any good anyway.

It will help my offspring more than being remembered as the idiot.

You probably would not care, so don't sweat it.

[Vagabond]

I probably would not care about my offspring? Lol, that's a good joke. I don't think heroes are stupid to start with. Plus, I think my offspring should have a personality of their own to depend on rather than need mine as a crutch. But when it comes to opinions, each to their own, I guess.

[s]

yea...

[Jkrs]

There also needs to be an option for 'both'.

[Addendum: 404th post. :D]

[cloakable]

i clicked hero, but if there was a "dead" option i would have clicked that.

There also needs to be an option for 'both'.

This is what happens if you put a poll in a forum full of NP's :D :ph34r: :D

[Johnny]

I think my offspring should have a personality of their own to depend on rather than need mine as a crutch.

Don't worry, they will... :sombrero:

[Claverhouse]

Never seemed to worry the Bonaparte clan. They made, and make, an entire living from the sacred memory of the little cult.



Legitimist to the core


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[candela]

Define hero.

[candela]

Ever hear of the Puritan guy who was put to death because he refused to shave off his beard? It happened long long ago in Massachusetts, I think. He died for his belief that men should be able to wear beards. Was he a hero or an idiot?I'm glad somebody stood up for my right to not shave. He's my hero.