How many are college dropouts?

[CJBianco]

How many of you are college dropouts? And do you believe there is a correlation between dropping out of college and the INTPs inability to complete a task? (This question was obviously inspired by the similar topic below.)

I was a miserable failure throughout junior high and high school. I failed both 7th and 11th grade, and I barely passed any other grade levels. I was a major slacker underachiever.

After graduation, I spent nearly seven (7) years wandering aimlessly before deciding to enroll in college. (I wanted to enroll years earlier, but I'd never been to a college campus and I was afriad I'd get lost and never be able to find my classes. Stupid reason, huh?)

I enrolled in college and aced the first semester. I took diligant notes with charts and diagrams included. I studied day and night. I was the perfect student. I made the Dean's List, was accepted into the National Honor Society, and even qualified for American Mensa and The Top One Percent Society.

The next semester was a complete breeze. I lost the need for studying, and I started missing a few classes here and there. I realized that the classes were a bit too trivial, but I was still motivated. I tried to increase my interest by taking all my tests in colored pencils. This actually worked. By the end of the semester I was again on the Dean's List and in the Who's Who Among American College Students annual yearbook.

I transferred to an out-of-state (SC) college where I kept the momentum for another year and a half. After that, my grades started going south. I had taken all of my advanced courses, so the next two years were really a waste of time. The assignments didn't matter. I wasn't learning anything new. And my professors were complete idiots. I failed several courses over the next two years because I would stop showing for class or decide not to take the meaningless final exam. (Officially withdrawing was a waste of time.)

Luckily, my girlfriend became pregnant so I had the perfect reason to quit college before my GPA dropped below the 3.0 mark. (Of course, all of the Fs and Ws are still on my transcript. That kinda sucks.)

So that's my story.

How many of you dropped out of college? Why?


Chris

[panda]

I dropped out because I lost all motivation.

[Lee]

I never went. I dropped out of education at 16.

[attila_the_hunny]

Haven't had a chance to drop out. I won't let myself.

[Hexchild]

I did. I was sick of the daily intake of information and completely stressed out by a lot of things.

[Nighthawk]

I did not drop out ... but it was a military academy, so there was a lot of external motivation applied.

[lexiphanic]

I dropped out. Another venture of mine had begun to mature to the point that I wanted to invest more time in that than boring classes.

[CoHo]

I graduated and I was fucking pleased with myself.

[attila_the_hunny]

I graduated and I was fucking pleased with myself.

Now if you could only finish work proposals.

[CoHo]

Now if you could only finish work proposals.

HAH! Actually I managed to pawn that off on someone else.

[attila_the_hunny]

HAH! Actually I managed to pawn that off on someone else.

You're the best at your job, that's for sure.

[joft]

everything I'm learning is wrong

[Leftfield]

Out of what I have read, a few things struck me as odd.

Meaningless final exam: Well, the way the system works is pretty straight forward, so if you didn't get any motivation in the class and knew what was expected on the final, why not take it and prove to you and your professor that you know it?

Also if class was so boring then you didn't follow a more true passion... in that case play the field and take a broad range of classes. One should click and then you can focus on that field for your life, if you are still undecided, philosophy is probably the best remaining field for an INTP.

Granted, the classes I am in now I learn too little for the time spent in classroom, but this gives me free time in college. Professors encourage class dicussion and interaction, and given an INTP views this will prove to the professor that you see things from an interesting perspective. Also, if they know this they yield letters of recommendation.

I use the extra freetime to my advantage and join special interest clubs of my interest: tennis, skeptics, finance and homebrewers club... also the college that I am at hooked me up with a sweet international co-op for six months in Germany too. There is way more to college then the classroom/knowledge. Lastly, outside of the classroom I have in-depth talks with my professors over topics that interest me and that they are professionals in. This is additional motivation / the icing on the cake.

[panda]

Leftfield: All of what you said is valid and true. In my own case, I simply couldn't muster the enthusiasm to complete any of the work or to attend lectures each day. It was entirely my failing.

Depending on certain events in the future, it's likely that I'll attend again, one day.

[Leftfield]

Leftfield: All of what you said is valid and true. In my own case, I simply couldn't muster the enthusiasm to complete any of the work or to attend lectures each day. It was entirely my failing.

Depending on certain events in the future, it's likely that I'll attend again, one day.

Were the classes too big, early, filled up... I know some of the large classes I felt like a drone and speaking out was less accepted. Did the professors make attendence mandatory? Some do where I am, and others throw out pop quizzes too. I think this is BS that non-attendence can affect a grade by as much as two letters. It is like receiveing a C while being a genius, thanks.

If there was a lack of enthusiasm was it from other people or the material wasn't inspiring? I didn't go to a lot of classes when I was in Engineering because it was a headache sometimes, like a microsystems design lab, draining my energy, my soul. Now in Finance, everyday I look forward to my classes and try and come fully prepared for discussion.

I'm narcissistic so when I know what I am talking about it impresses both the professor and the more intellectual ladies... double win situation. :banana:

[Pan]

Luckily, my girlfriend became pregnant so I had the perfect reason to quit college...

I just love happy endings!

I finished a Master's degree... but in a field where grad school is widely recognized as either procrastination or denial of inevitable failure.

[panda]

Did the professors make attendence mandatory?
Yes, but that isn't why I withdrew.


If there was a lack of enthusiasm was it from other people or the material wasn't inspiring?
Both of these things contributed to my malaise and ennui.

I can't honestly claim it was the fault of the school or professors (although that contributed). It was me. I had a lot of depression and uncertainty during that time, and just wasn't there, mentally.

[CJBianco]

Out of what I have read, a few things struck me as odd.

Meaningless final exam: Well, the way the system works is pretty straight forward, so if you didn't get any motivation in the class and knew what was expected on the final, why not take it and prove to you and your professor that you know it?

The final exams only prove that I know the material. If I know the material, I have nothing to prove. It's a waste of my time. And I didn't really care about the grades too much. Employers in my fields of interest don't care about my GPA anyway. They only care about talent. Writing, acting, film, music...most everything...it's all about talent. Grades are meaningless.

Regardless, I lost the motivation to care about the grades. Knowledge and understanding are all that matter.


Chris

[seba]

me -> dropped out of hs.

[misutii]

4th year... still going... might have to do a victory lap though to get into a master's program if i don't smarten up... as much as school might suck, getting a shitty job and working with stupid peasants would suck sooo much more, looking forward to decorating my ivory tower

[eyebyte_atWork]

Out of what I have read, a few things struck me as odd.

Meaningless final exam: Well, the way the system works is pretty straight forward, so if you didn't get any motivation in the class and knew what was expected on the final, why not take it and prove to you and your professor that you know it?

...

.


THat's how I got through six years of school. By acing finals. Never did the homework, never did extra stuff, I did even like labs all that much.

(4 years BS-Physics, 2 Years Almost BS in Civil Eng)

I did drop out before getting my next degree - and I have yet to go back to get a grad degree... procrastination is what allowed me to finish the degree

[nottaprettygal]

I finished a Master's degree... but in a field where grad school is widely recognized as either procrastination or denial of inevitable failure.

Philosophy?

[Nighthawk]

... as much as school might suck, getting a shitty job and working with stupid peasants would suck sooo much more, looking forward to decorating my ivory towerWord ... I wish I was back in the ivory tower.

[eyebyte_atWork]

Word ... I wish I was back in the ivory tower.

Me too half the time - me too.

[jimore]

Well, let's see.
First, I dropped out of high school in the eleventh grade, because the admin censored a column I wrote for our paper. Then I got kicked out of Decatur Junior Baptist College for being a rebel. Then I dropped out of Tennessee Temple Bible College after three years after I rediscovered the art of thinking and realized I really didn't believe what I was preaching. Then I almost finished a BA in psychology at the University of Colorado, and was admitted to Grad School contingent on finishing my second year of undergraduate Spanish. Then I dropped out of Grad school to save the world (this was the sixties, of course). Then I refused to finish my second year of Spanish so I didn't graduate. In 1972 I got tired of telling potential employers that I "almost" had a college degree so I went back to CU to finish Spanish, but by then they had changed the requirements and gave me my BA after all. Then I went back to CU in the eighties and got a second BA in communication. Then, I finally got a good job I loved. I realize of course that the path I took was very atypical for an INTP. :yay:

[Imen de Naars]

I've just started - I don't plan to drop out - I wan to live in the ivory tower, yeah (I decided that I likealot eyebyte style)

[eyebyte_atWork]

I've just started - I don't plan to drop out - I wan to live in the ivory tower, yeah (I decided that I likealot eyebyte style)

Glad to hear it. :)

[SensEye]

The final exams only prove that I know the material. If I know the material, I have nothing to prove. It's a waste of my time. I tend to see this a lot on this forum and I'm afraid I have to call bullshit.

If you know the material the exam would be trivial right? So why not take it? It's what: 2-3 hours? Don't try and convince me your time is that valuable. Taking the exam is what would be known as a good investment (unless you are about to fail miserably). You get all the credentials and legitimacy of academia infered upon you whether you respect them personally or not. And you have something to show the skeptics besides your opinion.

Your other justification, that you just don't care, is more legitimate.

[kuranes]

Hear Hear

[Nighthawk]

I tend to see this a lot on this forum and I'm afraid I have to call bullshit.

If you know the material the exam would be trivial right? So why not take it? It's what: 2-3 hours? Don't try and convince me your time is that valuable. Taking the exam is what would be known as a good investment (unless you are about to fail miserably). You get all the credentials and legitimacy of academia infered upon you whether you respect them personally or not. And you have something to show the skeptics besides your opinion.

Your other justification, that you just don't care, is more legitimate.I concur. Whenever I've blown off school or academic pursuits it has been for two reasons. 1) I don't care to make the effort, or 2) fear of failure.

[joft]

subjecting oneself to testing can (and usually does, to the people who dislike testing) mean more than that. there are many more layers to it, things that are implied or associated. to a very authority-resistant intp it can represent submission, conformity, etc.

[panda]

subjecting oneself to testing can (and usually does, to the people who dislike testing) mean more than that. there are many more layers to it, things that are implied or associated. to a very authority-resistant intp it can represent submission, conformity, etc.
*shrug* I suppose.

My primary problem is that I'm one lazy son of a bitch.

[floyd]

if you do want to finish school, i think the optimal setup for many intps may be...
1. go fulltime
2. go to a school with a small walkable campus (ideally in or near a city you like)
3. live on or very near campus
4. take easy classes with lenient attendance requirements

if you think school is a stupid necessity, you have to make it as painless/convenient/pleasant/fun as possible. the farther you live from school or the slower you take classes, the more likely you will never finish.

[CJBianco]

I tend to see this a lot on this forum and I'm afraid I have to call bullshit.

If you know the material the exam would be trivial right? So why not take it? It's what: 2-3 hours? Don't try and convince me your time is that valuable. Taking the exam is what would be known as a good investment (unless you are about to fail miserably). You get all the credentials and legitimacy of academia infered upon you whether you respect them personally or not. And you have something to show the skeptics besides your opinion.

Your other justification, that you just don't care, is more legitimate.

Okay. Maybe the phrase "a waste of time" is a little vague. I didn't mean that my time is incredibly valueable. I just mean that obligatory testing is way too boring. I would much rather spend my time writing and posting fake flyers all over campus. (Inglish tuter -- afforduble prises, Ninja Warriors For Hire, Lost Pet: Velociraptor -- answers to the name Fluffy.)

That's all.

Chris

[panda]

Okay. Maybe the phrase "a waste of time" is a little vague. I didn't mean that my time is incredibly valueable. I just mean that obligatory testing is way too boring. I would much rather spend my time writing and posting fake flyers all over campus. (Inglish tuter -- afforduble prises, Ninja Warriors For Hire, Lost Pet: Velociraptor -- answers to the name Fluffy.)

That's all.

Chris
Ah, the posting of the fake flyers on campus... a favorite pastime of mine, as well.

[TPol]

To save money, I tried to pack a K-6 education degree into 4 years. The final year (just before student teaching) was so packed with busy work from several of the classes that I ended up sleeping an average of 25-30 hours per week for months on end. I became quite physically sick. Plus, I resented getting fed a bunch of assignments just to keep us busy rather than our actually having real-life learning experiences. Finally, the whole bureacracy I was dealing with (because the big-wigs wanted me to be one of the school "ambassadors" and played flattery & negotiation games to get me to be a good one) eventually just sent me over the edge. So, yup, I'm one of those who dropped out of college. Never went back. Am happy enough in my current work that it seems unlikely I will.

[coffeezombie]

I've never understood people who don't like school. It's fun to show off one's superior knowledge while learning a few new things in the process. Usually even if the professors are not as smart as you, they are experts in their fields, so establishing friendships with them can be the source of a lot of new knowledge and theories.

[panda]

I've never understood people who don't like school. It's fun to show off one's superior knowledge while learning a few new things in the process. Usually even if the professors are not as smart as you, they are experts in their fields, so establishing friendships with them can be the source of a lot of new knowledge and theories.
I used to love school. I guess I got burned out.

[jread]

I was plagued with depression for most of my life, especially from about 18-23. This and boredom at the various public schools I went to seemed to really keep me from giving a flying fuck about a degree. I took courses on and off before eventually dropping out. A few years later, I decided that I was sick of being stuck under a glass celing at work and realized the TRUE value of having a college degree. If I'm ever going to get anywhere, I've gotta have that piece of paper. Period. I don't want to make chump change doing grunt work for the rest of my life.

I searched and searched and ended up at a small, private University (4000 students) in the middle of the city. My classes have only 5-10 students, there is no busy work and there are no exams. Your grades are mainly based off writing research papers and in-class discussions. Don't get me wrong, it's a lot of work and it's fucking HARD to keep up (especially since I work fulltime on top of this), but their approach to learning is a perfect fit for me. You get to think and use creativity, not guess the right answers on some bullshit test.

Needless to say, I've been going full speed and even taking summer courses. I'm really enjoying college for the first time and plan on going straight to graduate school. So, for me it was just finding the right environment to learn in. The negative? It's a private school so courses are about $1500 each. That student loan is going to suck.

[Jacque]

Ironically I entered college a little early at the age of 16, then dropped out for many of the same reasons outlined in your posts. Interestingly enough, I could re-enroll and still be with my age group. I haven't lost time yet, but it's looking to be that way.

[Jacque]

I'm digging this up again:

GSU Master Teacher Program: On Learning Styles (http://www2.gsu.edu/~dschjb/wwwmbti.html)

"The majority of undergraduate students are judging students. Based on data from the Center for Applied Psychological Type (CAPT) between 46% and 60% of over 16,000 freshmen at three state universities were judging students. Interestingly, almost 64% of Rhodes Scholars were perceptive students. Our own data base indicates that over 70% of undergraduate business students are judging students. The majority of university faculty also have a preference for judging. CAPT reported that almost 65% of 2,282 faculty prefer judging. We obtained the same percentage from our business faculty data base."

"Perceptive people are curious, adaptable, and spontaneous. They start many tasks, want to know everything about each task, and often find it difficult to complete a task. Deadlines are meant to be stretched. Their motto is: on the other hand ... . Perceptive learners often postpone doing an assignment until the last minute. They are not lazy, they are merely seeking information up to the very last minute. Breaking down a complex project into a series of sub-assignments and providing deadlines will keep perceptive learners on target."

[Fingers]

If college is the same as university, then I dropped out at 22 [i'm 23], mostly because of financial reasons, external pressures, and pure laziness

[Rajah]

Word ... I wish I was back in the ivory tower.Me too. A lot.

[MacGuffin]

After attending:Engineering school
Law school

I have this twisted dream of med school...

[sbw]

I dropped out because I perceived college to be a complete waste of time. perhaps I should add some qualifiers.

as a direct consequence of financial constraints, I went to the new university 10 minutes away from my parents' house (for one semester). and yes, I was still living at home (again, cuz of money), so the whole thing was VERY similar to high school. and I can't tell you how much I detested high school.

I should mention that I've never been able to come up with a career/job that I would want to do for a long time. my belief--and the counselors always disagreed--is that unless you have that going in, you are wasting time and money trying to find it. they literally tell you the exact opposite, that NOBODY knows what they want to be when they grow up, and we're all supposed to embark upon this journey of self-discovery. thing is, that 'journey' costs you tons of money, even if you are on scholarship, because of the opportunity cost of NOT working and NOT making money for 4-5 years. and most people leave college with a mountain of debt (though I don't know the exact statistics on that).

I've some other anecdotes and personal epiphanies with regard to this topic, but this post is already too long. safe to say that I recommend to every person I meet that they not attend college unless they want to be a doctor or lawyer.

or, of course, if they are only attending so as to do drugs and get laid--which is fine, but only financially responsible (in my view) if your parents are paying for it.

Scott

[Rajah]

After attending:Engineering school
Law school

I have this twisted dream of med school...Ahhh... all new sorts of problems to learn about and solve. *contented sigh*

I have a twisted fantasy about a PhD in physics.. which would make me have to start back at the beginning since I've been out of math or science for an insanely long time.

[MacGuffin]

Ahhh... all new sorts of problems to learn about and solve. *contented sigh*

I have a twisted fantasy about a PhD in physics.. which would make me have to start back at the beginning since I've been out of math or science for an insanely long time.Talk to Hypnos...

[nottaprettygal]

safe to say that I recommend to every person I meet that they not attend college unless they want to be a doctor or lawyer.

Because since you found college to be a waste of time, it suddenly is for everyone?

The bottom line is that usually college=higher income and higher income=ability to purchase hookers and drugs. It isn't much more complicated than that.

[nonsequitur]

I love school, would never consider dropping out of college. Then again, I'm only into my second year. I know what I love, and what I want to do - so I work with the system. I probably have at least 5-6 more years of school left, but I'm looking forward to it. I'm an INtX, not sure if that makes a difference.

[eyebyte_atWork]

Because since you found college to be a waste of time, it suddenly is for everyone?

The bottom line is that usually college=higher income and higher income=ability to purchase hookers and drugs. It isn't much more complicated than that.


My friend in DC would love you - except he won't spend money on drugs. :)

[MacGuffin]

My friend in DC would love you - except he won't spend money on drugs. :)Okay, your friend brings the hookers, notaprettygal brings the drugs... sounds like a DC par-tay!

[sasapurdue]

i went to college, didn't change majors, and graduated. That was officially the first and last time I completed a major task first of all, and secondly, completed a major task without switching horses 17 times in mid-stream.

[CJBianco]

The bottom line is that usually college=higher income and higher income=ability to purchase hookers and drugs. It isn't much more complicated than that.

End of discussion. =)


Chris

[eyebyte_atWork]

Okay, your friend brings the hookers, notaprettygal brings the drugs... sounds like a DC par-tay!

Just like a DC party.

[nottaprettygal]

My friend in DC would love you - except he won't spend money on drugs. :)

Your friend wouldn't happen to be named Marion Barry, would he?

[eyebyte_atWork]

Your friend wouldn't happen to be named Marion Barry, would he?


No - but it seems that there's this whole other world once you get to know a few people in DC. The world of discretion.

[nottaprettygal]

No - but it seems that there's this whole other world once you get to know a few people in DC. The world of discretion.

True. Maybe there is a whole other world when it comes to Dallas. Wait...nah.

[eyebyte_atWork]

True. Maybe there is a whole other world when it comes to Dallas. Wait...nah.


Well - yeah - .....

...
..
.
ah crap... Maybe I just attract all the wrong people.

[Jacque]

I've some other anecdotes and personal epiphanies with regard to this topic, but this post is already too long. safe to say that I recommend to every person I meet that they not attend college unless they want to be a doctor or lawyer.

Have you ever read J.D. Salinger's The Catcher in the Rye?

[simian20]

i am kanye west

[Slider]

I've never understood people who don't like school. It's fun to show off one's superior knowledge while learning a few new things in the process. Usually even if the professors are not as smart as you, they are experts in their fields, so establishing friendships with them can be the source of a lot of new knowledge and theories.


ceez, you fucking social first. why anyone would enjoy class discussions is beyond me. and networking? c'mon, for chrissake.

I dropped out cos: 1. it's a waste of time, 2. it's a waste of money, 3. college people suck.

[panda]

1. it's a waste of time
Not necessarily. In fact, I'd say it usually isn't.


2. it's a waste of money
Not necessarily. In fact, I'd say it usually isn't.


3. college people suck.
What does that even mean?

[Slider]

Not necessarily. In fact, I'd say it usually isn't.

Not necessarily. In fact, I'd say it usually isn't.

you're right, but I'm not a usual sort of person.



What does that even mean?

well, I suppose it means I'd rather not spend my time with people who need to be patted on the back for their knowledge, or those who kiss ass in hopes of making connections, or those who talk incessantly of their sorority/frat/club, or English majors whose reading habits consist of tom clancy and dan brown, or those who mechanically regurgitate information and receive good grades for it without bothering to think for themselves, or those who think getting drunk at a party is okie, but getting drunk alone is fucked up (although I concede that this last point may not just be a college-specific phenomenon).

[Xenophon]

I've been in school for the last 18 years, and it looks like I have at least 5 more until I'm done. I really don't understand why people hate school so much. I like learning anyways, so it isn't really that hard to focus my learning urges on what I need to learn for class.

I hear all sorts of people talking about how the classes are too easy, and so they lost motivation. If the class is too easy, then you should just learn the subject in more depth than is needed for the class. Maybe I'm stupid, but I have never learned a subject so well that I ran out of new things to learn. Just like most of you guys, I am more concerned with learning for the sake of learning than getting a mark, but if you have learned the material, getting the marks doesn't really doesn't take very much time. How hard is it to go and write a 3 hour exam on basic concepts when you have learned the subject matter well above and beyond what was required for the class?

As for the people, there are a lot of annoying people in college. But then again, have you ever been anywhere where there aren't a bunch of annoying people? I have found that I can pretty much stay to myself in college and avoid the people who I don't want to converse with.

[lexiphanic]

I hear all sorts of people talking about how the classes are too easy, and so they lost motivation. If the class is too easy, then you should just learn the subject in more depth than is needed for the class. Maybe I'm stupid, but I have never learned a subject so well that I ran out of new things to learn. Just like most of you guys, I am more concerned with learning for the sake of learning than getting a mark, but if you have learned the material, getting the marks doesn't really doesn't take very much time. How hard is it to go and write a 3 hour exam on basic concepts when you have learned the subject matter well above and beyond what was required for the class?

Busywork. I got 90+ on the four tests in an intro to comp-sci, but since I wasn't in class enough I failed the course. Do I mind? Nope. Just means I haven't been beaten down by life enough to consign several years of mine to what other people feel I should learn.

[sbw]

Because since you found college to be a waste of time, it suddenly is for everyone?

The bottom line is that usually college=higher income and higher income=ability to purchase hookers and drugs. It isn't much more complicated than that.

usually, but not always.

I don't make that recommendation to others because I found it to be a waste of time for me. rather, it's because it seems like a lot of people come out of college with a mountain of debt and either no job or a job that pays 30K per year (teacher, public defender, etc.)...the purpose of college is to make more money after college; but there are costs along the way, and not every college graduate gets rich. many of them make as little or less than their non-college brethren (again, after saddling themselves with the burden of debt, which is self-enslavement to some degree), and many of the ones who do move up the ranks within high-demand, high-paying professions seem to find themselves unhappy with their 80-hour weeks.

I just think that it's not the sure thing it's made out to be, so I think that people should assess their own goals in advance, and determine whether this particular (and particularly expensive) investment is the best choice. "unless you're going to be a doctor or lawyer" alludes to this, because obviously there are lots of other important jobs (like NFL wide receiver) that require at least some college.

and theoretically (since I didn't go), if you're in college to get laid then you probably aren't paying for hookers (or even beers, if there is a keg around).

Scott

[Xenophon]

Busywork. I got 90+ on the four tests in an intro to comp-sci, but since I wasn't in class enough I failed the course. Do I mind? Nope. Just means I haven't been beaten down by life enough to consign several years of mine to what other people feel I should learn.

I have never heard of a college where they mark attendance. Granted I have only been to two, but in pretty much every course I have been to, they hand out a course outline at the beginning of the term which tells you exactly where your marks are coming from. This varies from course to course, but in my 5 years of university I have never seen a course where more than 10% of the grade was based on class participation.

Also, I was under the impression that in most university programs people are allowed to choose what courses they want to take. And outlines of each course are usually posted online so you don't even have to guess solely based on the name. If you couldn't find anything offered in program that you wanted to learn, I suggest you were either in the wrong program, the wrong school, or you don't really like learning as much as you suggest.

However, I don't think that university is for everyone. I think that having a degree just makes things like getting a good job, and promotions a little easier. For someone like me who isn't particularily ambitious or competitive I think I will need all the help that I can get.

[nomir_dva]

The doors of the Ivory Tower have just opened to receive me, and I intend to stay inside. I think that academia is one of the few places where one can find some level of refuge from the idiotic cycle of production and consumption. The last thing I want to do is work for one half of my conscious life and then drug myself with stuff in a desperate attempt to make what's left of it seem meaningful.

[sbw]

The doors of the Ivory Tower have just opened to receive me, and I intend to stay inside. I think that academia is one of the few places where one can find some level of refuge from the idiotic cycle of production and consumption. The last thing I want to do is work for one half of my conscious life and then drug myself with stuff in a desperate attempt to make what's left of it seem meaningful.

you speak as though it were a binary equation; not every person who doesn't seek refuge in the ivory tower is doomed to the (admittedly boring) fate which you've outlined...

Scott

[YardGnome]

I dropped out of college more than once. I'm on attempt number 3 right now and seem to be doing pretty well. I've been going part time for the past 2 or 3 years. It's a bit easier taking only one class a semester because if you slack off you don't have as much catching up to do...

I have a 3.98 GPA

when I flunked out and left the 1st time I had a 0.2 GPA

[eyebyte_atWork]

you're right, but I'm not a usual sort of person.




well, I suppose it means I'd rather not spend my time with people who need to be patted on the back for their knowledge, or those who kiss ass in hopes of making connections, or those who talk incessantly of their sorority/frat/club, or English majors whose reading habits consist of tom clancy and dan brown, or those who mechanically regurgitate information and receive good grades for it without bothering to think for themselves, or those who think getting drunk at a party is okie, but getting drunk alone is fucked up (although I concede that this last point may not just be a college-specific phenomenon).


I used to be you.

I hated the idea of college - because it would only teach me what I was already learning. If I had gone to college - I would have taken business - and at the time I owned my own business and was quite successful. So I even dropped out of school all together at the ripe old age of 14.

Fast forward three years - my business started to suffer and I needed a way out - I found myself looking for something - and I was tired of what I was doing. I found school again. This time I saw it through a different set of eyes - and saw the value of it. I could study things that were awesome - and I could always make money on the side too.


I used to be you - but now I am me.


-EYEBYTE

[Xylix]

I have never heard of a college where they mark attendance. Granted I have only been to two, but in pretty much every course I have been to, they hand out a course outline at the beginning of the term which tells you exactly where your marks are coming from. This varies from course to course, but in my 5 years of university I have never seen a course where more than 10% of the grade was based on class participation.


If you have never been to a college that marks attendance then you are lucky. I had the misfortune of ending up in KU for a few semesters, and consequently found out they typically mark off a letter grade every few missed days.

The 'concept' is based on the idea that it will cause you to go to class more often, thus 'improving grades'. In reality all it does is ensure the demise that they are supposedly trying to prevent.

What a bunch of idiots....






Thankfully, I have a very, very nice community college in my area, and have only been dissapointed in 1-3 classes in all my semesters there.


I suggest you were either in the wrong program, the wrong school, or you don't really like learning as much as you suggest.

I'd say the same.

For anyone that can't stand college, you are probably in the wrong school and/or studying the wrong subject.

[Slider]

I suggest you were either in the wrong program, the wrong school, or you don't really like learning as much as you suggest.

I'd say the same.

For anyone that can't stand college, you are probably in the wrong school and/or studying the wrong subject.

right . . cos no one could possibly have different preferences and be the same (or similar) type.

but you're right, I need to find a school with no particular format, no required classes, and I need to take classes with no attendance policy, no classwork, no homework, no projects, no group work . . just tests/papers. oh, and they should let me pick the books/writers/events/philosophies I want to study, as well.

[Slider]

I used to be you.

I hated the idea of college - because it would only teach me what I was already learning. If I had gone to college - I would have taken business - and at the time I owned my own business and was quite successful. So I even dropped out of school all together at the ripe old age of 14.

Fast forward three years - my business started to suffer and I needed a way out - I found myself looking for something - and I was tired of what I was doing. I found school again. This time I saw it through a different set of eyes - and saw the value of it. I could study things that were awesome - and I could always make money on the side too.


I used to be you - but now I am me.


-EYEBYTE

you were never me because I've never been concerned with learning in order to gain employment/security.

[jetboots]

right . . cos no one could possibly have different preferences and be the same (or similar) type.

but you're right, I need to find a school with no particular format, no required classes, and I need to take classes with no attendance policy, no classwork, no homework, no projects, no group work . . just tests/papers. oh, and they should let me pick the books/writers/events/philosophies I want to study, as well.

If anyone knows of a place like this, give me a shout, cause id be all over it. Alternatively if it does not exist, i see a business opportunity, although I would not at all be about executing it:P

[airjaw]

if you do want to finish school, i think the optimal setup for many intps may be...
1. go fulltime
2. go to a school with a small walkable campus (ideally in or near a city you like)
3. live on or very near campus
4. take easy classes with lenient attendance requirements

if you think school is a stupid necessity, you have to make it as painless/convenient/pleasant/fun as possible. the farther you live from school or the slower you take classes, the more likely you will never finish.

completely true, this is the strategy i took to get my business degree.
all my classes are about 5-10 min walk and i'm still a few minutes late all the time but at least i make it to class.

easy classes = business or psych degree. not much studying, can ace the tests with decent test taking skills and minimal attention during class.

i have to add:
-schedule classes late in the day, that way you can wake up at 12pm and still not oversleep.

[Google Monster]

I didn't even make it past high school! Beat that!

[Ferrus]

After attending:Engineering school
Law school

I have this twisted dream of med school...
I would personally advise becoming an accountant and social worker first, then you can boast of your expert knowledge in 5 (a nice round number) whole professional fields

[Edmond Zedo]

The doors of the Ivory Tower have just opened to receive me, and I intend to stay inside. I think that academia is one of the few places where one can find some level of refuge from the idiotic cycle of production and consumption. The last thing I want to do is work for one half of my conscious life and then drug myself with stuff in a desperate attempt to make what's left of it seem meaningful.
I've found that idiots exist everywhere, and surely the rate is higher in a, shall we say, "working class environment," and it's harsh, but to be forced to relate to someone less rationally inclined than oneself in this world of academia provides a similar gnawing torment.

*Lord of run-ons*

[Ferrus]

to be forced to relate to someone less rationally inclined than oneself in this world of academia provides a similar gnawing torment.
True, but at least the pretentious intellectual prattle that accompanies it is at least vaguely amusing.

[sbw]

I didn't even make it past high school! Beat that!

"and the worst part of it is--I NEVER LEARNED TO READ!"

Scott

[Edmond Zedo]

True, but at least the pretentious intellectual prattle that accompanies it is at least vaguely amusing.
Only as an observer though, in my experience. If they're subjectively judging you for merit, it's never amusing.

[Ferrus]

If they're subjectively judging you for merit, it's never amusing.
True enough, I generally notice amongst the academics at my university you have the downtrodden original INTP ones whom people like in their eccentric ways and then the mass of INTJ ones who follow every academic trend they comes their way.

Oh and I can't see why anyone would want to drop out of an undergraduate degree, unless they like doing work (in which case they should be duely pillored).

[sbw]

Oh and I can't see why anyone would want to drop out of an undergraduate degree, unless they like doing work (in which case they should be duely pillored).

I tried to explain the diminishing return on investment (in this country at least) earlier in the thread.

it is true that college grads make more money, on average, than non-graduates; but the non-grad category is a much larger portion of society, and lots of them make 18 grand a year, which has to skew the numbers. my point is that many people who complete an undergrad degree do not go on to high-paying careers (say, 80K+ annually). lots of them are teachers, social workers, public defenders, insurance salesmen, etc, and the ones who can't find THOSE lucrative jobs are waiting tables.

if you go out and get an average job, making 40-60K per year, inflation will keep you from getting ahead the way people used to.*

wages have been outpaced by inflation for the past 25 years, and its only gonna get worse.

in the current inflationary environment, the people with capital will get richer while everyone else gets boned. in light of this, my mathematical assessment is that a young childless american is better off starting work--and the accumulation of savings--immediately, thus foregoing college, IF college would produce an only-slightly-higher salary, especially when considering the lost wages of 5 years working part-time or not at all during college.

Scott

* this statement is largely dependent upon grotesquely consumerist behavior which might possibly be Uniquely American. though unlikely to afflict the average INTP individual, this behavior is certainly a consideration for the majority of the people within the described wage range.

[rawr]

I tried to explain the diminishing return on investment (in this country at least) earlier in the thread.

it is true that college grads make more money, on average, than non-graduates; but the non-grad category is a much larger portion of society, and lots of them make 18 grand a year, which has to skew the numbers. my point is that many people who complete an undergrad degree do not go on to high-paying careers (say, 80K+ annually). lots of them are teachers, social workers, public defenders, insurance salesmen, etc, and the ones who can't find THOSE lucrative jobs are waiting tables.

if you go out and get an average job, making 40-60K per year, inflation will keep you from getting ahead the way people used to.*

wages have been outpaced by inflation for the past 25 years, and its only gonna get worse.

in the current inflationary environment, the people with capital will get richer while everyone else gets boned. in light of this, my mathematical assessment is that a young childless american is better off starting work--and the accumulation of savings--immediately, thus foregoing college, IF college would produce an only-slightly-higher salary, especially when considering the lost wages of 5 years working part-time or not at all during college.

Scott

* this statement is largely dependent upon grotesquely consumerist behavior which might possibly be Uniquely American. though unlikely to afflict the average INTP individual, this behavior is certainly a consideration for the majority of the people within the described wage range.

You're trying to rationalize not going to school in your own mind. I used to do that a whole lot while I was still in higshchool. Theres not really a reason to not go to college. I do thoes simple minded jobs right now. If i worked full time id make 12k a year. I had a decent job for alittle while after highschool. I got layed off. I cant go get a job doing what i was doing again because while having the knowledge of how to do the work. I dont have the peice of shit paper that says that I can. Im finaly starting university this fall at age 20 majoring in liberal studies. I hope I'll maintain the motivation to complete school. I dont care If i make anymore money than i do now when I get out. If it just keeps me from having to go into the real world for 4 more years, and a work envrioment with people who are atleast slightly more intelligent than your average joe then thats fine with me.

[mancroft]

I graduated and I was fucking pleased with myself.

Ditto!

[ferunandesu]

I've just finished my first year of college. I had a 2.75 the first semester. I was taking mostly core courses, so I never went to class... The class that I went to everyday (Japanese) was the one that I did the worst in... I made a 3.77 this past semester, and only because I failed my exam in calculus (not doing a single problem for 2 weeks before the final was a great idea). I also withdrew from Jap II, so that helped...

I'm enrolled in summer courses, so I hope to bump my overall GPA over a 3.4 (currently at 3.21 - 29 hours).

My courses from here on out (Philosophy, Physics, Artificial Intelligence, Symbolic Programming, Cognitive Psychology, etc.) are significantly more interesting than the ones that I've been taking (US History, Political Science, Japanese, Calculus, Counseling), but significantly more challenging as well...

I've found that the difficulty of a course has no impact on how well I perform. I've also found that grades have no meaning.

I plan to stay in school for as long as possible.

I hope that you can find meaning in this post.

[Conan]

I never went. I dropped out of education at 16.

Are you serious? If so I find it incredibly depressing. At least from a liberal arts perspective youd probably make the most successful student of anyone on the board.

[last_caress]

You're trying to rationalize not going to school in your own mind. I used to do that a whole lot while I was still in higshchool. Theres not really a reason to not go to college. I do thoes simple minded jobs right now. If i worked full time id make 12k a year. I had a decent job for alittle while after highschool. I got layed off. I cant go get a job doing what i was doing again because while having the knowledge of how to do the work. I dont have the peice of shit paper that says that I can. Im finaly starting university this fall at age 20 majoring in liberal studies. I hope I'll maintain the motivation to complete school. I dont care If i make anymore money than i do now when I get out. If it just keeps me from having to go into the real world for 4 more years, and a work envrioment with people who are atleast slightly more intelligent than your average joe then thats fine with me.

Though I fully advocate higher education in principle, anecdotally I'm going to side with sbw in regards to ROI (although with the economy in a slump, employers are becoming increasingly picky).
Out of at least 6 friends from highschool, the one that did not finish college is monetarily compensated better than the rest, and at least one is waiting tables well out of school.
If I'm not mistaken, higher education is .gov subsidised or offered at relatively reduced rates for citizens in some other countries, whereas in the US, despite supplementary provision by the .gov, education is still relatively expensive for the average citizen.

[sbw]

You're trying to rationalize not going to school in your own mind. I used to do that a whole lot while I was still in higshchool.

no, I'm not. why would I do that?

Scott

[rawr]

Though I fully advocate higher education in principle, anecdotally I'm going to side with sbw in regards to ROI (although with the economy in a slump, employers are becoming increasingly picky).
Out of at least 6 friends from highschool, the one that did not finish college is monetarily compensated better than the rest, and at least one is waiting tables well out of school.
If I'm not mistaken, higher education is .gov subsidised or offered at relatively reduced rates for citizens in some other countries, whereas in the US, despite supplementary provision by the .gov, education is still relatively expensive for the average citizen.


Thats somewhat true, but what do you expect. This is not a socialist country, and im still going to school for free off goverment grants. Beautiful:)

[airjaw]

School sucks, everyone knows it.
It doesn't fit INTP's at all.

HOWEVER
It is a means to end, meaning, if you suffer through it, you gain more opportunities to make more money to pursue your own hobbies/live on your own etc (even though your job might still suck, you'll get paid more doing it).

It might also help your social skills as well as teach you cool new things.

even though it sucks for an INTP I'm really glad my parents forced me to complete college...first i didn't want to go, then I wanted to transfer, then i wanted to drop out several times, and now i'm almost done..
speaking of completing college i have my last final in 2 hours and here i am on INTPc instead of studying... woohoo

[Stillwater]

I prefer the term "life learner".

[kafkaesque]

I went to school and got a Bachelor of Fine Arts degree. Also known as an NA.

[Umbrosia]

I dropped out of college, as a senior, when I realized there wasn't anything more they could teach me in my field. But I could see myself going back to learn something completely different.

[nomir_dva]

The doors of the Ivory Tower have just opened to receive me, and I intend to stay inside. I think that academia is one of the few places where one can find some level of refuge from the idiotic cycle of production and consumption. The last thing I want to do is work for one half of my conscious life and then drug myself with stuff in a desperate attempt to make what's left of it seem meaningful.

That post seems so naive now that I have finished a year of college. I can't stand the incredible pomposity of the whole institution. The focus is on extracurricular activities, community service, and the ethereal notion of 'leadership.' I don't know what the fuck leadership is, but I don't have it and I do not want it. Academics are of secondary importance. It is also beginning to dawn on me that scholarship is far less important than the skills of rhetoric and oratory. I wish they were honest enough to still offer those subjects. It seems on this board that the people in college tend to dislike the experience while those who have graduated wish they could go back. Either college has changed in recent years, or the future is nothing to look forward to.

[Zilal]

I dropped out of school. Many, many times. I remind myself of those smokers who, asked if they'll ever try to quit, say, "I have quit. Five times."

I dropped out of high school twice due to severe depression (but managed to graduate). I dropped out of college twice for the same reason. Went back to community college but didn't like the program or the environment, so I dropped out again. I applied this spring to a real university and I'm still waiting to hear back.

Of course, I'm not an INTP. Having to leave college the second time was one of the most painful things I've ever done.

Do I recommend staying in school? Not particularly. I'm not terribly concerned with the idea of thousands of bright minds living lives of destitute unrealized potential. I'm living a life of destitute unrealized potential and I'm much happier than I was when I was in school. Sometimes dropping out is the only way to realize school's right for you anyway. It's totally an individual thing.

[Ferrus]

Do I recommend staying in school? Not particularly. I'm not terribly concerned with the idea of thousands of bright minds living lives of destitute unrealized potential. I'm living a life of destitute unrealized potential and I'm much happier than I was when I was in school. Sometimes dropping out is the only way to realize school's right for you anyway. It's totally an individual thing.
Yes, but at least as an INTJ life outside the Ivory Towers doesn't suck quite as much.

[Edmond Zedo]

Do I recommend staying in school? Not particularly. I'm not terribly concerned with the idea of thousands of bright minds living lives of destitute unrealized potential. I'm living a life of destitute unrealized potential and I'm much happier than I was when I was in school. Sometimes dropping out is the only way to realize school's right for you anyway. It's totally an individual thing.
Did you have career aspirations? Do you?

[Hustler]

I dropped out of college, as a senior, when I realized there wasn't anything more they could teach me in my field. But I could see myself going back to learn something completely different.

Yeah, right.

[Ferrus]

Yeah, right.
Reminds me of the epitaph: "The most modest person in the world".

[Umbrosia]

Hey I'm not claiming modesty here, I'm saying I hit a glass ceiling at my school and it was time to leave.

By the way, I was at the University of North Texas studying music and some of our most famous music dropouts are Don Henley of The Eagles, Pat Metheny and most recently Norah Jones. If I were studying something like medicine that kind of brash statement would be pretty foolish, but music is kind of a different animal when it comes to what you can get out of a formal education.

[aklight]

I did worse than dropping out - I never went. Actually, I don't really regret it that much at all. And hey, I could still go. I'm not old by any means. If I had did everything "how I was supposed to" then I would just be finishing my junior year of college now.

[YardGnome]

Update:

In response to my previous post... I have sort of dropped out of school again, for the fourth time... I've managed to secure a pretty decent job though, and learn more on the job than I did at school...

[Dom]

I dropped out, but am returning in september to correct this error!

[sbw]

I dropped out, but am returning in september to correct this error!

why do you believe you made an error?

Scott

[Ferrus]

I've managed to secure a pretty decent job though, and learn more on the job than I did at school...
Pray tell what this job is.

[cryingmime]

i dropped out once, only for 6 months, though...since then, i've almost never NOT been in school, sorta.
I finished my B.A. in 00, spent 6 months off, then went to get my MBA, never finished that, instead got my MA in English w/a teaching certification, then took 1 year off, now i'm getting my MS in Supply Chain Logistics. I don't know what i'd do without being in some sort of class, or at least a learning environment.

The "student loan people" hate me, since i've never been out of school long enough to start paying my loans. i just keep deferring them.

r

[Justin05]

I am dropping out. I have been exhaustively studying architecture by my lonesome to no avail. I am teaching myself how to do detailed architectural drawings. I am learning about the works of Palladio. I plan to study Vitruvius. All of this is not costing me that much money. Drop out and save money and figure out what you wanna do. I know what I want to do and now I am doing it. I will hopefully find work from learning this program: www.sketchup.com or Autocadd. And then I will go back to school for architecture. Next, I will become an architect. I have it all figured out. No thanks to five years of fumbling through a degree I don't give a shit about(Psychology)

[sbw]

I am dropping out. I have been exhaustively studying architecture by my lonesome to no avail. I am teaching myself how to do detailed architectural drawings. I am learning about the works of Palladio. I plan to study Vitruvius. All of this is not costing me that much money. Drop out and save money and figure out what you wanna do. I know what I want to do and now I am doing it. I will hopefully find work from learning this program: www.sketchup.com or Autocadd. And then I will go back to school for architecture. Next, I will become an architect. I have it all figured out. No thanks to five years of fumbling through a degree I don't give a shit about(Psychology)

good luck...you can make decent money if you know autocad, and continue learning in your spare time.

Scott

[ptGatsby]

Pray tell what this job is.


I call it life, personally.

I didn't learn one thing that I use on my current job in school... least, not beyond reading (and not math - I took something outside of school to get over the horrific crap I had fed to me)... except, my mom taught me to read too, and forced me to read all summer long. That's what got me reading. Maybe writing...

But whatever. I work in a technical environment; I have never taken a computer class in my life. I deal with databases; I've never taken a SQL or MS access course in my life, but I manage both. I have limited programming/scripting schools; to be fair, I took a nightschool courses to learn C when I was 15ish. Useless thing it was.

I learnt about proposal writing right out of school, with my first job. I was a copy boy, but it didn't hurt me any. I tried tech school, but I was already so far ahead of the curve - I wasn't going to last the 2-4 year program (diploma-degree). I tried philsophy/psychology, thinking arts might be more in line with what I wanted to learn. Those were even more useless.

Did it hurt my long term prospects? Maybe. My only regret is wasting so much time before accepting that I could do it better myself.

Every individual is different, each has their own niche. Don't decide based on what others say is best for you. School wasn't for me... and I wish I had realised this earlier.

So yah, I'm a drop out. And I've done it enough times to not want to go back, ever. I no longer feel the need either.

[Ferrus]

The "student loan people" hate me, since i've never been out of school long enough to start paying my loans. i just keep deferring them.
Ah, if only that were possible here.

[Lucy]

I dropped out in my final year of my degree (because I couldn't stop crying).
Then I worked at odd jobs for year, travelled, came back and finished at another university.

[Zero Angel]

I dropped out of the programmer/analyst course at CDI college. After 'basic computer training' I learned some basics of system analysis (flow-charting), then they tried teaching me visual basic. It was easy stuff, but I did not feel like continuing at that point because learning VB is incredibly boring. Come to think of it, the entire program (and even upcoming units) were not very valuabe.

I do not regret my decision anymore and plan to enroll in university in the fall.

[Zilal]

Did you have career aspirations? Do you?

Well... sort of. I don't know if I'm a very good case study, because of the extent of the depression I went through. For about 12 years the focus was almost exclusively on getting through the day. So I didn't get around to career aspirations. I assumed I'd have a career, but I didn't think much about it.

I think I've turned out differently than I would have otherwise. I am aiming now for a career in environmental education, but it's not the most important thing to me, as it might have been if I'd progressed unimpeded through school. I'm more concerned now with enjoying the simple things. I figure if I get to the point where I'm delighted by a baloney sandwich, I'd appreciate a career even more too.

[TelecomClone]

How many are college dropouts?I am about to become one. I really just don't care anymore, and it seems to me that it is better to drop out than go down in a blaze of Fs that never, ever goes away. I've already had one of those now, marring the pretty series of As and Bs, and as I've just skipped another final I suspect that I'll have a second F this semester. I think that will probably drop my cumulative GPA to or just below 3.0 as well.

I did terribly in high school and was a Deans List student at university until last semester. Oh well. Back to the stupid entry level office jobs, I guess. Or homelessness.

[Dr. Haight]

I am about to become one. I really just don't care anymore, and it seems to me that it is better to drop out than go down in a blaze of Fs that never, ever goes away.

That is incredibly sad for more reasons than I care to list.

[TelecomClone]

That is incredibly sad for more reasons than I care to list.Shed tears for me, then.

[headfonez]

I am about to become one. I really just don't care anymore, and it seems to me that it is better to drop out than go down in a blaze of Fs that never, ever goes away. I've already had one of those now, marring the pretty series of As and Bs, and as I've just skipped another final I suspect that I'll have a second F this semester. I think that will probably drop my cumulative GPA to or just below 3.0 as well.

I think you should hang in.

[YardGnome]

Pray tell what this job is.

A Software Engineer

[Ferrus]

A Software Engineer
Well if you do that or programming you'll probably learn for a year or so then it's same old, same old; unless you happen to be very gifted and get given good projects.