The Meaning of Life

[Johnny]

The meaning of life...? By implication, we assert that there is some meaning to life within this question.

I think we need to take a step back from this question, and ask what meaning is first.

What is it, to mean? Is it something that only reason can answer? Where is the value in meaning?

For me, meaning is a child of reason and nothing more. Furthermore, meaning never got any bills paid, any jobs done, nor any interests explored. If anything it was more of an intellectual burden, a restriction, a hindrance, than a facilitator or supporter. The bills, the jobs, the interests only got pursued through action.

[simian20]

check my lyrical style foo. i hope this helps. here is a yarn. a long time in a galaxy far far away(quite recently come to fink) i worked in "hospitality", no s involved i just observed the lower orders....honest!!!
i woke in the morning quite dazed and confused in another hotel not knowing which foot was which. then i get showered and changed; get fresh; find identity. then i jump on the coach; beginning my quest. arrive at the venue take a look around; greater orientation. get down to work; quite a shock that it has to be done. find my footing, see younger people not doing as they should so quite them; parenthood. kids know what they are doing and then i begin to tidy up; grandkids. feeling tyred cant wait for the work to end, people start to drift off. shift finished. jump back on the bus; the bus is just a venue for idling. go back to hotel watch telly, smoke a reefer; retirement. go to sleep; die. (this is the good part) wake up and do it all over again. is this proof of hindi reincarnation? and the circle of life?. biblical like;"from ash you came, from whenst thee shall return?"

[Claverhouse]

I have absolutely no idea what the meaning is. To believers in God there are various forms of meaning, one being ultimate union, one being submission to His Being, one being following His Command, etc.. Atheists may choose between no-meaning and biologic imperative, which basically means when you've done fucking you die having, for some unknown reason, perpetuated your species.

Yet I am satisfied to exist, believing in a Creator, and taking that enjoyment out of the struggle: range yourself on any side, but struggle because quiesance is death in life. My side fears God and honours the King, his Vicegerant. In that way unity and stability is satisfied: for others it will be different.

Meaning has value because it is value. Nothing is valued unless it has some faint meaning in it, whether beauty or love or anything we want. Therefore meaning is desire. ( Which the buddhists regard not only as delusion but the ensnarement that keeps us from blessed non-being. )

And getting jobs done and bills paid are merely to sustain and further that desire which is meaning.


Claverhouse :ph34r:


*pleasantly*
Any post answering with a number will be deleted.

[melancholeric]

"That's right. Yeah, I've had a team working on this over the past few weeks, and, uh, what we've come up with can be reduced to two fundamental concepts. One: people are not wearing enough hats. Two: matter is energy. In the universe, there are many energy fields which we cannot normally perceive. Some energies have a spiritual source which act upon a person's soul. However, this soul does not exist ab initio, as orthodox Christianity teaches. It has to be brought into existence by a process of guided self-observation. However, this is rarely achieved, owing to man's unique ability to be distracted from spiritual matters by everyday trivia."

"What was that about the hats, again?"

[Lee]

I always find this question odd.

What exactly is being asked?

Sometimes it is like when an artist creates a peice of work and people ask "what does it mean?", as they search for the intention behind the art. Is that what is being asked? what intention is behind the existence of life? This kind of interpretation presupposes a creator, since only a being with thoughts, desires and feelings can "mean" anything.

If it is "what does life mean?", as in - what are the implications of life? then the implications of life is that I am alive. If I were not alive (conscious), then the universe might as well not exist.

[Johnny]

If I were not alive (conscious), then the universe might as well not exist.Ah yes Lee this is where I was going, sort of. See, within the statement you offer you already demand something of the universe...some tax upon the universe...for not allowing you to be conscious. Furthermore, you do not even allow your own life to exist without consciousness's participation.

So when I ask about the meaning of life, I already assert that meaning is there...but I haven't supported it at all.

The problem is that, collectively, we are not that stupid are we? If there really was no meaning to life (or in your example, a painting), then why do we ask this question and intend something useful from it? Is meaning akin to the air we breathe...we simply breathe and the air sustains us while we live? Is it something discovered, is it a tool we fashioned to get things done more easily (or perhaps done at all)?


Meaning has value because it is value. Nothing is valued unless it has some faint meaning in it, whether beauty or love or anything we want. Therefore meaning is desire. ( Which the buddhists regard not only as delusion but the ensnarement that keeps us from blessed non-being. )Meaning is desire? You might be right...but then I'm compelled to ask, what is desire and what value exists there?

If you fall upon God, or biological imperative, or perhaps nothingness, then you don't really answer the question. You've only put the question away in a container (a safe? a computer's hard drive?).

It may very well be that "meaning" only evidences the limitations we must face with language (or even thought itself). There is no intrinsic value to it beyond revealing this to us...there is no connection between meaning and desire whatsoever. I still want to argue for this...but I'm unsure...maybe I'm only offering a slightly different version of your lock-it-up-in-a-safe-and-protect-it argument, Claverhouse, and I'm just not clever enough to see it.

[Xenophon]

Well, I think it is fairly safe to start off by saying that meaning is a function of consciousness. In fact, I think that the basic purpose of our apperceptive functions (thinking and feeling) is to assign meaning to the things that we perceive. So, in this sense I believe that meaning is a purely subjective experience, so "What is the Meaning of Life?" doesn't makes sense as a question, rather we need to ask, "What is meaningful in my life?"

I think that there are a lot of people in the world today who, rebelling against the church and it's literal god, have thrown out the baby with the bath-water. As people become more and more aware of the rift between their subjective experience, and objective reality, they react violently to any notion of someone trying to force an "external meaning" into something that is purely internal. So instead of rejecting the meaning that someone has tried to force on them, they reject the idea of meaning altogether.

[Johnny]

As people become more and more aware of the rift between their subjective experience, and objective reality, they react violently to any notion of someone trying to force an "external meaning" into something that is purely internal. So instead of rejecting the meaning that someone has tried to force on them, they reject the idea of meaning altogether.Interesting. But this tension you point to within a person who experiences this rift, you only turn meaning into a tool where you are able to fashion a violent reaction from within that person when his/her internally motivated actions are discounted or contradicted by others.

I'm inspired right now in reading your post to say that your tool has problems. Why would this person's internal meaning, being disconnected from objective reality, percieve such a challenge as to solicit violence? I thought you said there was a gap there. But now there's not?

Also, I don't see much of a difference between "what is the meaning of life?" and "what makes life meaningful?". All you've done to my POV is what I accuse of Claverhouse (and perhaps myself), that you've only introduced a black box technology into the equation whereby I must call tech support to fix the problem rather than solve it myself. It only begs the question: what is life?

I have been agreeing with you on meaning being a function of consciousness, but now I understand my concern regarding Claverhouse better in reading your assertion. All I've really done is place meaning within the consciousness black box and shaken the dirt off my hands for a lunch break. I haven't really solved anything there.

O.K. so then we need to ask what consciousness is that springs this meaning thing and causes people to act violently over subjective/objective tensions.

[Xenophon]

A tool to create a violent reaction? I don't believe that is the purpose of meaning, I believe that is a side-effect of people becoming more aware of the subjective nature of meaning. Back in the old days, meaning was prescribed through the church, before that there were complex mythologies that dictated the meaning of things that people saw. As we evolve as a species, the nature of meaning changes with us.

If you want to look at meaning as a tool, I would say it is the guiding force behind each persons actions. It can't only be understood through interpretation, and it can't be analyzed objectively. (There are no meaning molecules). There must be a rift between meaning and objective reality because they do not exist in the same domain. In a mathematical sense, I would say that meaning is a function or mapping of objective reality. Objective reality is independent of meaning, however meaning is derived from it. This doesn't dimish the importance of meaning, it just goes against the idea that one meaning can possibly be universal.

When I reworded the question, I was further making the point that meaning is personal. It's the difference between, "What is the meaning of life?" and "What is the meaning of my life?"

[Johnny]

When I reworded the question, I was further making the point that meaning is personal. It's the difference between, "What is the meaning of life?" and "What is the meaning of my life?"Thanks Xenophon for the clarifications I appreciate it.

O.K. so you see an evolution of meaning from a purely objective aspect towards a purely subjective aspect? Interesting. But I'm still puzzled. Meaning was given life and purpose through the church? Meaning did not appear to us as a question before the existence of the church?

What about the secret societies and public groups back in the old days that existed in opposition to the church and its power? Did they operate outside the boundaries of meaning until its evolution towards this subjective domain?

[Xenophon]

Well first, I would not say that every person is neccesarily on the same level. It's pretty obvious when you read something by Plato that he had a very strong understanding of the connection between the subjective and the objective. However, I think beyond exceptional individuals, there is a general trend towards greater self-understanding in the human race as a whole.

I am not trying to say that people didn't have personal meaning back in the days when the church was in charge. Rather, I am trying to say that for the average person there was no difference between personal meaning and the churches "objective" meaning, because they were not aware of the rift between their subjective world and the objective world.

When there is no rift between your subjective reality, and objective reality, the concept of god becomes perfectly reasonable.