Time Signatures

[Serotonin]

Yes, I'm talking about the weird ones.

The Ones I get and like (cos' I worked them out :P ):

- Led Zeppelin: The Crunge - Pretty sure it's 9/8. It's fast, so the extra beat always annoys you when you're trying to toe-tap to that funky bass line.
- Vast majority of Tool songs. Pay attention and you'll get them. The Grudge is simply 10/8, break it up into 3-2-3-2 and you'll be tapping along in no time. The Patient's 5/4 is much easier to get. Lateralus is 9-8-7-9-8-7. Count 'em. Ticks and Leeches 14/12 for the most part. So is the instrumental section of 46 & 2. The bridge of Schism (heh, those last four words are cool) operates in 27/8. Again, count if you don't believe me. Aenima I think oscillates between 9/16 and 6/8.

Ones I don't get:
- The bit in Metallica's Orion where the rhythm guitar goes from Am up to C and then back down to A again. There's an extra quarter-beat or something in there that's infuriating.

- The fanfare in Stairway to Heaven about 5 1/2 minutes in. I always tap on the wrong beat

- The bridge of Pearl Jam's Alive is strange also.

Your turn. Help me out, add your own, or not.

[Garyincinci]

Pink Floyds "Money" is recorded in 7/4 time (To my knowledge the only rock song ever written in 7/4)

[waxwing]

I'm not sure about the Metallica song you were questioning. I'd have to listen to it again. I'm pretty sure that "Where the Wild Things Are" is in 5/8? Definiely 5, but my memory is fuzzy.

Fiona Apple often "plays with" time signatures. She's got too many irregualar pieces to name, but what comes to mind first is "Fast as You Can." It's actually in a fast four, but I once spent an entire 3-hour ride home tapping the steering wheel and repeating about 10 bars of intro to figure out the exact signature. It appears that there's a very brief deviation, almost too quick to catch. Like a 32nd note of something. Exciting once I realized what she was doing though. The most interesting part about that piece is her use of the drum and bass beat for the fast 4, and then her bridge in 6/8. The return to the 4 after the bridge is strikingly intense.

Well, next person I think of is probably one of the most obvious choices: Dave Brubeck. Many of his works are written in irregular/compound time signatures, but the ones I think of now are "Take Five" (5/4) and Blue Rondo a la Turk" (9/8). Both those sigs excite me. Can't get enough.

Red Hot Chili Peppers "The Righteous and the Wicked" is in 5, too, I believe. Then, a few Ben Folds Five songs. I can't remember titles right now.

A personal favorite of mine, Stephen Sondheim, is known for shifting time signatures. I once played in the pit band for a production of "Into the Woods." Damn. That's some tricky counting at least in the low brass section. ;) He tops my list for inventiveness, not only in time signature, but in chordal structure.

Also in the world of musical theater, there's Andrew Lloyd Weber. He may not be as unorthodox as Sondheim, but still pushes the envelope on occasion. An example is "Skimbleshanks" from "Cats." In 13/8, I'm pretty sure.

The band, Live, did a pretty interesting thing with "Shit Towne." 15/8. I used to listen to lot on repeat just for the appeal of the time signature. Can't remember any specifics at this time. For threads like these, I wish my Sensing function were not so poor.

There are various classical composers in choral/orchestral music who use compound/irregular time signatures. Rachmaninoff is one. Tchaikovsky is another. Rautavaara, definitely. Randall Thompson may not be known for it, but I've played a few of his piano accopaniments (esp. "The Lord is My Shepherd") and can vouch for his inventive time changes. One of the trickiest things he and some others do is make the vocal and accompaniment lines seemingly clash. They are obsessivly worked out, I'm sure, but take a disciplined, patient musician to figure them out and actually stay on beat. There is always the fun of 3 against 2, which shows up in various forms. Too many places to name, really.

Broken Social Scene. On their most recent album, they play a song in 7/4. Called "Shoreline."

In addition, I just realized that one of the reasons I like electronic music is for the heavy use of 7/4 and 5/4 (i.e. Venetian snares).

I wish I could remember some more titles. Maybe later.

Thanks to you I'll be tapping and humming all day.

*Oh, I almost forgot my one of my favorite bands, Tindersticks. While the music might not be so fast and confusing as some of the others mentioned, it is slow and another good example of varied time signature. Contrast. You get the point, I'm sure.

[Serotonin]

Also in the world of musical theater, there's Andrew Lloyd Weber. He may not be as unorthodox as Sondheim, but still pushes the envelope on occasion. An example is "Skimbleshanks" from "Cats." In 13/8, I'm pretty sure.

Great example! Yes, you're right, 13/8, at least in the chorus anyway. I remember trying to sing that when I was a kid, looking at the sheet music, being totally befuddled.

"There's a whistle down the line, at 11:39, when the night-rail's ready to depart"


The band, Live, did a pretty interesting thing with "Shit Towne." 15/8. I used to listen to lot on repeat just for the appeal of the time signature. Can't remember any specifics at this time. For threads like these, I wish my Sensing function were not so poor.
I think they just oscillated between 3/4 for the verse and 4/4 for the chorus. I remember the drummer had to click in every time for the chorus.

[cjs55]

Death metal and time signature is a very fun topic if you're a masochist, but lets see someone try to map out this song:

http://www.anentity.com/demilich/get.php/files/Nespithe/Nespithe_MP3/Demilich%20-%20Nespithe%20-%2001%20-%20When%20the%20Sun%20Drank%20the%20Weight%20of%20Water.mp3

Ok I did it for fun:

A) 10/4 or 3/4, 7/4
B] 6/8x, 9/8, 6/8x3, 10/8. 6/8x3, 9/8, 6/8x3, 10/8
C) 6/4, 4/4x2 or 5/4 3/4 etc.
B2) same time signature as C (brilliant)
B] repeated once
D) 7/4
A2) decidedly 5/4
A) one measure that's hard to figure out, 10/4 though
E) 4/4
F or D2) 4/4
G or B3) 4/4, 6/8, 4/4, 10/8 x4
E) repeat

It's interesting that one sees the melodic line developing in a viral pattern almost, where a 3/4 measure constrasts with a 5/4 measure containing all of the data of the 3/4 plus an addition to the pattern. They really like to end phrases this way especially in this track. Their lyrics are an interesting little crytographic thing as well that is almost similar to their melodic development. Demilich was undoubtedly made by an INTP =p.

Death metal often throws in lines where the '1' is unexistant, basically eliminating time signature entirely for moments or making it irrelevent. Demilich isn't a great example of this, but Suffocation and morbid angel can be occasionally. Don't have the server space to put up both though.

Rhythym and melody are very intertwined in death metal, melody is often either pitch-axis (just like time signature is very odd and can go just about anywhere at any given moment), or atonal entirely (which is like when time signature is impossible to locate precisely). Just like the base tone which pitch-axis relies on is missing, so is the downbeat that time signature relies on in many cases.

[waxwing]

Serotonin, you're probably right about the 3/4, 4/4 oscillation. I wonder if there is another Live song I'm confusing "Shit Towne" with.

Anyway, 15/8 is worth talking about.

15 --> divide by 3, so 5 beats per measure
---
8 --> 8th note value, x 3, so that means that three 8th notes (one dotted quarter note) equals one beat


There are three 8th notes per beat, 15 per measure. If we think in terms of the 3-feel, then it could sound like 1-2-3-, 1-2-3, 1-2, 3, 1-2-3-, 1-2-3, 2-2-3, etc....

3/4

quarter note gets a beat, 4 beats per measure

So,

1-2-3, 2-2-3, 3-2-3, 4-2-3, etc....

Each beat a quarter note value, but all we have to do is multiply that quarter note by 1.5 = dotted quater note. So, I'm thinking that a 15/8 could resemble a 3/4 (A fast one. Or, actually like a "cut" one) because of the "3-feel." Or vice versa. Especially if the piece oscillates between 3 and 4 beats per measure.

Shoot me. I'm wrong.

[Pan]

The Police - Mother -- in a fast 7

All the old prog rock stuff is great for metrical complexity:

Genesis - "Armageddon in 9/8" (from Supper's Ready) kind of speaks for itself, though it surprises a bit in that it's 4+3+2

Jethro Tull is full of great stuff - the live version of Living in the Past is mostly in asymmetrical 5 (2+3+3+2). Part of the Machine is all over the map (11/8 Bazouki music?!).

I think my favourites are the subtle ones, though... Supertramp using five-bar phrases in the verses of the Logical Song helps establish the stylistic contrast between verse and chorus - and if you're not paying attention you might not even notice what they've done. Similar trick with Peter Gabriel in Salisbury Hill. Tom Waits throws an extra beat in a couple of places in Please Call Me, Baby - apparently to underline the text in what sounds (even with those additions) like a very simple, straight-ahead love song.

I do believe that English is an asymmetrically spoken language... we use a lot of agogic accents, and these added beats and odd meters do seem to fit it naturally. Or maybe that's simply true for prose and poor poetry in all languages... in any case, I'm in favour of any device that makes text-setting more fluid and natural.

[Sue Denim]

I've always liked the way that Rush plays with time signatures.

[djeikyb]

"Make Yourself" by Incubus is in 31/8 for the verses at least. (6-6-3-6-6-4)

"Yusek Yusek, Tepelere" by Candan Ercetin is in 9/8, but the accents can be confusing.

[The Mathemagician!]

Please, for the love of god, listen to some "Heavy Vegetable", especially the album Frisbie. If you're familiar with Pinback, Heavy Vegetable was Rob Crow's first band. I can't describe how amazing this album is. It's so playful, yet complicated, yet catchy and unassuming and effortless. The first time I heard it, it, I thought it came from some far away planet. I'm convinced Rob Crow can write a catchy and inventive melody over anything.

(Hmm... I guess I kinda can describe it)

And... while I'm at it... I'm going to take this opportunity to do some shameless self promotion:

http://www.evilcomputer.ca/TATEC-TIT.mp3

Sure, it starts in 4/4, but the chorus is... um... 10ish? (I guess you could look at it as a bar of 4/4 followed by a bar of 6/4). Then the bridge goes from 7/8 for a few bars, then to 3/4. And then back to 4/4... and so on...

[Conan]

Take Five - Dave Brubeck, every songs in a weird time signature

day i tried to live -soundgarden 4/4 to 7/8 (essentially 15/8)

[melancholeric]

Soundgarden - Rusty Cage is in 19/8.

List of works in irregular time signatures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_works_in_irregular_time_signatures)

[Serotonin]

List of works in irregular time signatures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_works_in_irregular_time_signatures)

Nice. Big-ups to melan.

[waxwing]

Wow, that is quite a list on wikipedia. I wonder how many of them are accurate.