Signs from God

[euterpenc]

For those who doubt God's existence, why not ask God for a sign, and if you recieve one, there you have it? I think that's a great way to have some grounding on whether God exists or not. Though there are arguements against that, but I still think people should give that an honest chance.

[DevRock]

Been there, done that. Nothing happened. So I guess I'm right.

[headfonez]

i believe in God. what if i ask for God to give you some money. Right now. Did he do it? Is God real?

[headfonez]

God is not real because of signs but hes real cause you believe he is. Why does he have to be a he. Sexist

["InsertNameHere"]

You of all people should know that "God" doesn't do what you ask him to do and if he does it, it wont be when you want it... so... what does that tell us? Either your example is not a very good one or it proves that "God" doesn't exist.

[eyebyte_atWork]

The truth is that no one know whether there is or isn;t a god - a great architect of the universe

I seriously do not think you will get a sign by asking - after all if there is a god he has a bad PR agent.

[euterpenc]

I said a sign, not a specific desire. "God give me a sign." is what I meant, if that was not clear. Naturally specific things won't work, those things don't work even not relating to god, as life is too unpredictable.

[euterpenc]

You of all people should know that "God" doesn't do what you ask him to do and if he does it, it wont be when you want it... so... what does that tell us? Either your example is not a very good one or it proves that "God" doesn't exist.

When one doesn't want to believe or refuses to accept the possibility of god, naturally one will make it a self-fulfilling prophecy. Perhaps one is ignoring signs on purpose or refucsing to accept them as signs, and rationlizing, not because he should, but because he doesn't want to be open to the possibility of god. Such rigidnes against something that is as yet unproveable shows a bias, and lack of a truly open mind.

[headfonez]

the "truth" is that the truth is relative. If you get the sign, its up to you (your brain,consiousness,spirit, whatever) to determine it to be whatever you determine it to be.

[euterpenc]

the "truth" is that the truth is relative. If you get the sign, its up to you (your brain,consiousness,spirit, whatever) to determine it to be whatever you determine it to be.

The fact that truth is relative I do find to be true, but it still seems lacking.

[headfonez]

the lacking sense is also relative

["InsertNameHere"]

A sign for what? Anything can be a sign! I see signs all the time, really. My life til this day has been one weird asS dream! I should have died as an infant when I went crashing through a car front window and landed in a ditch. The car rolled over me but at last her I am and survived without a single scratch but I don't believe that incident could prove to me that “God” existed, if I already didn't believe. It's all about faith.

[euterpenc]

the lacking sense is also relative

Relativity is a cop-out or excuse for lack answers, except of course in the theory of relativity.

[ptGatsby]

I know I'm convinced...

Just the other day, there was a church with a sign on it. It said "If you were looking for a sign from god, this is it". I know that about a decade and a half ago I asked for a sign, and now there it is! Guess its time to convert... Wish I knew what religion it was.

If you want to find a sign, you'll find one. And if you don't want to find one, you won't.

[NoahFence]

i believe in God. what if i ask for God to give you some money. Right now. Did he do it? Is God real?
Say instead you ask me to give you some money. Right now. Did I do it? No. Am I real? Yes. So, why didn't I give you any money? I mean, you asked, right? Shouldn't that be enough?

I asked God for a sign and got one. I'm totally serious. I'm also not even about to try to prove it. You would either believe me or you wouldn't. If you want to believe in God, you'll probably believe my story. If you don't, you'll probably believe I'm lying, crazy, or making assumptions about what I experienced that are unwarranted. Either way, the only thing that happens is a strengthening of your current convictions, and possibly a firm belief that I'm a nutter. None of these outcomes interest me.

[headfonez]

answers are relative. the absolute is relative. All is relative to your knowledge of it.

If we all didnt have eyes, would there be a such thing as light. Sure. But if we didnt know what light was then... then... err im on the wrong tangent.

Just know that the way the universe is, God is, and all alike is relative to your knowledge of it. If you cant see, you have no idea what colors are. We dont see the big picture, so we dont know all of the colors...And if we knew everything, we wouldnt know the things we wouldnt know.

The truth is human beings dont know the truth. And even that is relative.

[kuranes]

I know I'm convinced...

Just the other day, there was a church with a sign on it. It said "If you were looking for a sign from god, this is it". I know that about a decade and a half ago I asked for a sign, and now there it is! Guess its time to convert... Wish I knew what religion it was.

If you want to find a sign, you'll find one. And if you don't want to find one, you won't.

Big LOL!

"Signs, Signs, everywhere signs . . .can't you see the signs?"

I saw one yesterday that said "People with dusty Bibles lead dirty lives."

Then there is the problem of busty Diablos.

[headfonez]

Say instead you ask me to give you some money. Right now. Did I do it? No. Am I real?
*scratches I dont know

[headfonez]

I believe in God

*waves off smoke which came from the lightning strike

[euterpenc]

answers are relative. the absolute is relative. All is relative to your knowledge of it.

If we all didnt have eyes, would there be a such thing as light. Sure. But if we didnt know what light was then... then... err im on the wrong tangent.

Just know that the way the universe is, God is, and all alike is relative to your knowledge of it. If you cant see, you have no idea what colors are. We dont see the big picture, so we dont know all of the colors...And if we knew everything, we wouldnt know the things we wouldnt know.

The truth is human beings dont know the truth. And even that is relative.

*sigh* Don't you know basic Kant, or the practical equivalent? Experience isn't always necessary for knowledge. That's why we have a priori. If you've never seen a house fall before, you still know that if it's base is removed, it will collapse. Experience isn't the only source of knowledge. Our mind doesn't exist merely because of experience. It has it's own factors and functions that exist independent of the external world. How do we know the mind exists? We can't touch or feel it or see it, does that mean it doesn't exist? Is it a matter of faith that man has a mind?

[headfonez]

so youre saying that....what

["InsertNameHere"]

I believe in God

*waves off smoke which came from the lightning strike
My mother survived a lightning strike once. The lightning actually struck a metal chain fence and she was leaning on it and got shoked. I wonder if that was a sign...

[headfonez]

was she naughty or nice

["InsertNameHere"]

was she naughty or nice
nice! she was still young and innocent then

[Leftfield]

That isn't the point, here is how I see it and how I think it to be understood through close friends that believe in God. You quest to seek for God and until you are passionate in finding him/her, then the sign will present itself, like you are a chosen one that deserves his/her respect.

To just ask for a sign is lazy and will get you nowhere! The problem with the true way to find God is that when you get really into something your expectations go with it, there must be a payout to all the time invested in this activity of reading and understanding the written/spoken/whatever words of God.

When I get into anything in depth I do get some sort of benefit than before, when it is philosophical readings I get this "huh" feeling and it makes me feel good inside... I see this as no different than in the "huh" people get when they sense God's presence.

For me though I just see the world for what it is (and was) and can not believe that a creator would have made it or have it become what it is today. It's like a bypass, or rejection vs. going through all the grunt work in searching for him/her.

[headfonez]

hmm, musta been the work of Santas evil twin, Satan

[Nemesis]

after all if there is a god he has a bad PR agent.


:rofl:

[euterpenc]

My mother survived a lightning strike once. The lightning actually struck a metal chain fence and she was leaning on it and got shoked. I wonder if that was a sign...

You can only really die from lightning if it passes through your chest. Electricity takes the path of least resistance, which is usually down the side of your body, and doesn't hit your heart or lungs. To really die, you'd need to stand something like this:

.. |
.. _| <----- lightning
.. |
.. v

... |
O-|---< <------you
... |
_____________ <----ground

As you can see, that way it passes through your chest. Don't foget, you'd have to be high up, and probably wet as well.

[euterpenc]

hmm, musta been the work of Santas evil twin, Satan

We all know Santa doesn't exist.

["InsertNameHere"]

sorry but I can't really figure out your diagram but I get the gist of what you said. And it was raining, she got shocked and lost consciousness but no other ill affects but ok. I wonder if it was a sign though? lol

[kuranes]

God could exist and still not be at all like the God that any ( or some ) of the organized religion "books" say that It/He/She is. Or not.

See the "Believe" thread and others.

Speaking of Santa, I reject the "Super Santa Claus" idea of God. To some people this means that I reject God, period. That's why such debates are silly, IMHO.

[eyebyte_atWork]

Hey - where is god anyway? - I have not seen him post in a while.

["InsertNameHere"]

Hey - where is god anyway? - I have not seen him post in a while.
Probably taking a nap like he did during the middle ages...

[euterpenc]

sorry but I can't really figure out your diagram but I get the gist of what you said. And it was raining, she got shocked and lost consciousness but no other ill affects but ok. I wonder if it was a sign though? lol

dunno... signs only come to those who ask, or are prepared for them. they come at the right time, naturally. maybe that prevented her from having somethign else bad happen to her. man, god thinks ahead.

[kuranes]

I've had a lot of amazing coincidences lately. Sometimes it seems those might be the universe winking at me.

Wonder if it ties into the morphic resonance material I was looking into yesterday?

[ptGatsby]

(Whoo, another one!)

Just now I decided to relent and ask for a sign from god. I figured, what harm could it do? Little did I know... Immediately after, someone came in and gave me more work to do. Quite clearly, god is dead.


The irony is that this actually happened. I couldn't help but smile... and share it. Just don't think I'll be converted to a hard working SJ anytime soon.

[Apostasius]

For those who doubt God's existence, why not ask God for a sign, and if you recieve one, there you have it? I think that's a great way to have some grounding on whether God exists or not. Though there are arguements against that, but I still think people should give that an honest chance.

About eight or nine years ago I was torn between continuing as a "believer" (i.e., Xian) and acknowledging that I could no longer believe (for a variety of reasons). I sincerely asked for some sign. In fact, I asked repeatedly over the course of a few months and vigilantly looked for anything that might be considered a sign. It was not an easy thing to turn away from something that had been a big part of my life for twenty-five years. My "existential crisis" only resolved itself over time. Soon the pleading and despair were replaced with a sense of abandonment followed by recognition that I had to continue to live without religious faith. Now life has different meaning for me. If there is a God, then his silence extinguished the final flame of faith that I had.

[euterpenc]

About eight or nine years ago I was torn between continuing as a "believer" (i.e., Xian) and acknowledging that I could no longer believe (for a variety of reasons). I sincerely asked for some sign. In fact, I asked repeatedly over the course of a few months and vigilantly looked for anything that might be considered a sign. It was not an easy thing to turn away from something that had been a big part of my life for twenty-five years. My "existential crisis" only resolved itself over time. Soon the pleading and despair were replaced with a sense of abandonment followed by recognition that I had to continue to live without religious faith. Now life has different meaning for me. If there is a God, then his silence extinguished the final flame of faith that I had.

Idk how that can happen to someone. I figured you believed, or you didn't, and one stood more or less firmly on one side, or just stayed out of it completely.

[kuranes]

Idk how that can happen to someone. I figured you believed, or you didn't, and one stood more or less firmly on one side, or just stayed out of it completely.

You might have some doubts of your own as you get older Z.

Or re-define "God", as your man Nietzsche did. Perhaps you already have, but then how would anyone here KNOW that? The word "God" can mean so many things that it's kind of a whirlygig to talk about what a sign from God would be.

[nomir_dva]

Idk how that can happen to someone. I figured you believed, or you didn't, and one stood more or less firmly on one side, or just stayed out of it completely.

People change all the time and in every conceivable way. You and I are not the same persons that we were on our respective tenth birthdays. Personal identity can change; memory can change; belief can change as well.

[Xylix]

For those who doubt God's existence, why not ask God for a sign, and if you recieve one, there you have it? I think that's a great way to have some grounding on whether God exists or not. Though there are arguements against that, but I still think people should give that an honest chance.

A great idea! "God please give me an emperical sign that you exist!"

Now all I have to do is wait for his existence to be proven by science. ;)


Until then I'll presume either:

A: God doesn't exist
B: God's existence is essentially irrelevant, as his presence is clearly indistiguishable from any natural law or any other occurance.

[Ivy]

Idk how that can happen to someone. I figured you believed, or you didn't, and one stood more or less firmly on one side, or just stayed out of it completely.

That turns out not to be the case. I probably overuse the analogy of a spectrum vs. a toggle switch (I already used it once today, so I'm not allowed to use it tomorrow) but it applies here. I don't think for most people it's a matter of "I BELIEVE" or "I DON'T BELIEVE," once and forever. I think people have all different variations of faith and doubt, and it varies not only from person to person but from day to day with the same person. I have times where I am on the "very sure" end of the faith spectrum, and times when I am not as certain. At one time in my life I was what you might call a soft atheist or an agnostic. Then I had a period of very fervent belief and faith. Most of the time, I've had a pretty strong faith that is, I think, reasonably tempered by doubt. A fundamentalist may disagree that strong faith can entertain any doubt, and a strict rationalist may disagree that reason and faith can co-exist.

[euterpenc]

You might have some doubts of your own as you get older Z.

Or re-define "God", as your man Nietzsche did. Perhaps you already have, but then how would anyone here KNOW that? The word "God" can mean so many things that it's kind of a whirlygig to talk about what a sign from God would be.

I have redefined god, bit in this refinement, he/it still exists, though not in the christian perception of it persay.

[ApeTheDog]

Here is the problem I have with the whole God giving signs bit.

Why would God, provided he was real, give a shit if I believe in him? Why would he, if I ask him for a sign, not simply be able to go: "oh hell. Another one of these people asking me for another sign. In 60 years he'll be dead. He's really not worth my time". That, to me, seems like pretty much the only realistic option to consider.

Either God will not give you a sign because he does not exist, or he will not give you a sign because... why the hell would he? What does He get out of it? And if he starts doing it for one person, he'll have to do it for everybody. I cannot blame him, if he exists, for not bothering at all.

My personal opinion is that God doesn't exist, and that all signs people see are coincidences that they chose to colour as signs, because that is what the happened to be looking for at the time. They could have thought of them as jokes, as coincidences, as proof that their ancestors were up there in heaven watching over them, as signs... and if you consistantly think everything weird that happens to you is a sign, then of course you'll receive lots of signs.

If you think every ant you run into is a gorilla, you'll run into more gorillas than the average person does in a lifetime too. That doesn't mean you're right, just that your perception is coloured.

[Xylix]

Why would God, provided he was real, give a shit if I believe in him? Why would he, if I ask him for a sign, not simply be able to go: "oh hell. Another one of these people asking me for another sign. In 60 years he'll be dead. He's really not worth my time". That, to me, seems like pretty much the only realistic option to consider.

How about: Why would God even bother disguising 'his' presence and require all individuals to have faith?

Why wouldn't God simply solve this whole crappy sign thing by simply 'proving' he exists?


For that matter, why would any 'good' god require individuals to discard rationalism -- a trait often considered as 'seperating' humans from animals-- in favor of blind faith? Especially when blind faith is the single most effective tool with which to lead humans to incredible acts of evil.


Then again, I was always hung up on the question: If God is omnicient, then wouldn't he have known that Adam and Eve would have eaten from the fruit of knowlege? Given this, why heck did he plant it in the first place?


My guess on god's answer: "You gotta admit, the whole affair was pretty funny! I especially liked the part when I turned into a snake!"


Which would incidently explain why he'd give semi-random signs and most of those to semi-crazy people... but yet give no proof! ;)

[ApeTheDog]

Yeah, he could do that - prove he exists to us. But why would he? I mean, people assume God wants us to know he is out there. Why does nobody seem to doubt this?

Perhaps, yes, it amuses him, if he is real, to see us all doubt his existance. Perhaps we've just gotten it all wrong with our guesses - because that is all we have - in thinking he's benevolent, and cares about us.

That is, again, if he exists, which I find a highly random and circumstantial guess.

[Xylix]

Yeah, he could do that - prove he exists to us. But why would he? I mean, people assume God wants us to know he is out there. Why does nobody seem to doubt this?


Well if we assume that God doesn't want us to know about him then there are large questions about why the whole Jesus thing.

I mean, the whole point of the kid coming down was to deliver a announcement from God right? So why the heck would he send the kid if he doesn't want us to know he exists? Unless, of course, you assume that Jesus wasn't gods kid...

But it is best not to go down that road. You know how people react when you question the whole Jesus thing!

[NoahFence]

It's easier to understand all the mystery if you think of god as a DM.

You stand at a pivotal point in the campaign. You can't figure out how to proceed. Why, WHY, does the DM not tell you everything?? WHY!?!??!

Well, to those in the know, it's because it would ruin the campaign, and invalidate the entire point of playing in the first place. From a player's perspective this can be incredibly frustrating.

What the hell, it's an analogy.

It amuses me when people assume God must stop everything and explain, and if he won't, he obviously doesn't exist. Is it not possible that Jack Nicholson was right? "You can't handle the truth!"

Another argument amuses me: "I can't think of a single reason God would hide his existance, therefore there isn't one!"

[Ka.avik]

Another argument amuses me: "I can't think of a single reason God would hide his existance, therefore there isn't one!"
I actually take the opposite approach: The strongest proof we have of an omnipotent creator, is that we can't prove there isn't one. He's actively hiding, forcing us to live by faith. If there were no God, I feel confident we'd find out through corroborating knowledge such as mathemetics & physics. Just random, out of control stuff -- but its ordered randomness! Not all that random after all.

Too, I like your DM analogy. That's about the way it is, too -- IMHO.

[Xylix]

It's easier to understand all the mystery if you think of god as a DM.

You stand at a pivotal point in the campaign. You can't figure out how to proceed. Why, WHY, does the DM not tell you everything?? WHY!?!??!


You mean he is suppressing his laughter as we all walk into the inescapable death trap!!!

Noah, you are more pessmistic than I am! ;)




Actually, I've often drawn the analogy that God is like an author. Like all maturing authors he quickly learned that it makes a very boring story if he keeps writting himself into it and breaking the fourth wall.

However diabolic governments -- The Bush Administration, and complex moral delimas -- Abortion rights / stem cell research, make great story fodder! ;)





It amuses me when people assume God must stop everything and explain, and if he won't, he obviously doesn't exist. Is it not possible that Jack Nicholson was right? "You can't handle the truth!"

Another argument amuses me: "I can't think of a single reason God would hide his existance, therefore there isn't one!"

No, the question instead is why the heck would God send signs?

And if he does, why the heck would God not just go straight to emperical evidence?


There are of course plenty of reasons for God to hide existence. Most of them are rather silly though! ;)


I'm agnostic in case you wonder, but that is mostly because most definitions of God are so generalized that they can't be disproven.

[Xylix]

I actually take the opposite approach: The strongest proof we have of an omnipotent creator, is that we can't prove there isn't one. He's actively hiding, forcing us to live by faith. If there were no God, I feel confident we'd find out through corroborating knowledge such as mathemetics & physics. Just random, out of control stuff -- but its ordered randomness! Not all that random after all.


Prove that the world exists for me.

Can't? So you believe in Sollipism right?

Prove that the universe wasn't created by ravenous gerbils.

Can't? So you believe that it was right?


There are tons of things that can't be proven. You are unwittingly commiting the Negative Proof Fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof).

[trendal]

Yeah I've tried that. Didn't work.

[nomir_dva]

How about: Why would God even bother disguising 'his' presence and require all individuals to have faith?

Why wouldn't God simply solve this whole crappy sign thing by simply 'proving' he exists?


For that matter, why would any 'good' god require individuals to discard rationalism -- a trait often considered as 'seperating' humans from animals-- in favor of blind faith? Especially when blind faith is the single most effective tool with which to lead humans to incredible acts of evil.

Why would God create a Universe at all? If he is perfect, then he shouldn't have gotten bored.

[ApeTheDog]

Well if we assume that God doesn't want us to know about him then there are large questions about why the whole Jesus thing.

I mean, the whole point of the kid coming down was to deliver a announcement from God right? So why the heck would he send the kid if he doesn't want us to know he exists? Unless, of course, you assume that Jesus wasn't gods kid...

But it is best not to go down that road. You know how people react when you question the whole Jesus thing!

Sure, if we assume God doesn't want us to know we exist, then we have to also assume Jesus was not the son of God. I have never once believed that to be true, so I have no problem dropping that assumption.

Why was Jesus the son of God? Because he said he was? I think it is far more likely that he did say he was the son of God, and that the people in his cult believed him - than that he actually was.

Ask any random Raelian if Rael can clone people, and they will tell you he can. Ask them if he is an incarnation of the devine on earth, and anybody who lives in his cult will tell you he does.

The Bible was written by the equivalent of these cult-members, back in Jesus's days. I very much question it's validity, because of this.

[ApeTheDog]

I actually take the opposite approach: The strongest proof we have of an omnipotent creator, is that we can't prove there isn't one. He's actively hiding, forcing us to live by faith. If there were no God, I feel confident we'd find out through corroborating knowledge such as mathemetics & physics. Just random, out of control stuff -- but its ordered randomness! Not all that random after all.

Too, I like your DM analogy. That's about the way it is, too -- IMHO.

So the strongest proof we have of an omnipotent creator, is that we have no proof.

I think that is more proof that he isn't actively hiding, forcing us to live by faith, but rather that he does not exist.

[red]

For A while I had almost completely lost my faith in gods existance. Before that I had faith in his existance[god]. Then I thought about it, about how it was stupid to believe[in my opinion believe has too many e's in it] in god [I compared them to other things like a child believing in faries to add it to the "blind faith" catagory], but a part of me was confused and unsure. I contemplated what if god does exist and I go to hell? I must keep my faith just to secure my afterlife.
Then one month, after I decided to keep faith to satisfy my selfishness, I reflected and concluded that I had an good week. A good week is a week when I don't have conflicts, don't loose anything, etc. Foolishly, because of my dwindling faith, I asked god to have something bad happen to me. My exact words were, "God, I'm starting to think you arn't real. Why don't you ever show yourself? Why would you put us through a prehell? If you loved us than why don't you trust us? Why did you send jesus come and save everyone then and not now anymore? Why don't we have a jesus? etc.etc. [and finally,] Why will you never give me a direct sign?[this is not the first time I asked for a sign and had doubts, god is probably getting pissed at me -_-] Life is been running surprisingly smoothly, if you are real can you ruin it for me?" Then I thought, wait! thats stupid! so I said, "I mean, can you have something bad happen to me that not too bad." That I thought, wait how willl god understand the limits if I don't even know what the limits are so I said again, "God can you have something bad happen to me soon, before school[It was 3 days before school began again], that can be resolved easily but still has a hard -just enoughly- impact to know that your there or atleast hint at your existance?"
Two days later I discovered my bus pass was lost. I thought maybe this was the sign but I often loose my buspass.. So I reflected as I so often do and remembered [vaguely] that they were in my pant sweater. So I didn't loose it and it wasn't a sign. My pant sweater, I clearly remembered, was in my room. I went to my room. They were not there. I went to my sisters room. They were not there. I went searching the house. It was not there. I asked my mother where they were. She responded by giving me a confused look,"I don't know" Is what she said. So I checked the last place left - the laundry room. There was my pant sweater washing innocently with the rest of the clothes. 'O' A sign? I immediately took them out. "Mother! You washed my pant sweater!"
She said, "No I didn't" so I said "Your right, I guess the static of my pants caused it to be attracted to the southpole[the laundry is south of my room] which caused the pants to just shoot up and run into the laundry." and I held up the pants. She said with a surprised look on her face. "Oh! Yeah! I just washed it since there wasn't enough laundry. It's your fault, you left it lying on the floor" I yelled because they were in my room and if she had washed them then she must have went into my room which I told her not to do! So I reached for the contents in my left pocket what I pulled out was a hard ball of what looked like kleenex. I didn't understand. This is not what my bus pass looks like. So I asked her, "Did you take out my bus pass from this sweater?" She looked surprised, "Your bus pass was in there! The school hasn't even started and your buss pass is already missing!!" I said "and whose fault is that?"
But I was a little confused, the bus pass had to be in there. So I looked deeper into it, scratching the fabric. And there were tiny pieces of paper[roughly half of 3/5 of a cm some were smaller] that were caught by my fingernails. It was worn and ripped [obviously] but not beyond my recognition. Surely enough it was my bus pass. T-T Atleast now I had found it. My school is 9 km away from my house. I walked to school every morning, except the one's where my mom would give me a ride [about 0-1 times a week] until the end of the new month.
I still am not sure -was it really a sign or just a coincidence? How can you ever be[sure]? What I was sure of, however, was that god is capable of doing a little evil for the greater good[Or maybe it was the devil... -_-+].
Anyway, I never prayed so foolishly ever after. The end.

[ApeTheDog]

What I do not believe in is that God, as we know him, has ever been anything more than something people invented.

Throughout the ages, you can see it in every single culture there has been.

The ancient Egyptians believed God existed - not the same one as we think exists now - and they built great pyramids that were all aimed at the one non-moving part of the skyline, because they believed it to be the escape from the universe. The path to God.

That has since been disproven. We now know what the universe looks like, and we know why those three stars that all the pyramids are aimed towards, simply don't move for a good, scientific reason.

Before them, people believed in natural Gods. The God of thunder, the God of rain, the God of love. All things which we had no explanation for, and all of which we came up with an answer for, because... there had to be something, no?

Every single time, people have invented a God, given credibility to his existance, and a whole mass of people believed they were real.

I cannot possibly imagine that the current God we're stuck with, is any different. Nor can I believe that cults that arise these day and age - scientology, raelians, and so on... are founded any differently than, say, christianity was one founded.

That is my main problem with every religion out there. I am almost 100% certain they are founded on bullshit, on wishful thinking, and then perpetuated through blind belief.

Is it possible that there is a God out there? Yes. But if He is out there, why is it that almost everybody chooses to believe in the Bible. In one God, instead of multitudes of them. Why is it that people think he's a nice, omnipotent God - rather than a bastard?

People have all these assumptions about God. And this is a problem for me. Either you admit that you know nothing about Him, and that every single religion that has ever existed was based on bullshit and wishful - and that you know absolutely nothing about him. Then I can accept that he exists.

But everybody who claims that God will give out signs. That there is only one. That he is omnipotent. For everybody who claims to know anything about him, I cannot lend any credibility to their ideas at all.

I personally do not believe God exists. I have seen, far too often, things that were transcribed to him, turn out to be simply science and chance, and nothing more at work.

We now know that even things like love, compassion, and other such things, have scientific reasons for existing - mirror neutrons - rather than that some deity up above 'gave' them to us.

But science is a religion as well. Scientists are todays priests. A lot of aspects about it are very religious. Don't we believe that science will one day find a cure for cancer? Make us all live forever? And so on? The key word here being 'believe'.

I am religious in that department, I can't deny it. But a God... that is stretching it a bit too much for me.

[Apostasius]

Yeah, he could do that - prove he exists to us. But why would he? I mean, people assume God wants us to know he is out there. Why does nobody seem to doubt this?


For many Xians, I think the assumption stems from a particular theological interpretation of the Bible. A religious framework is constructed around core beliefs that are generally not seriously called into question, so larger philosophical questions are often ignored or scoffed at as foolishness. There are, of course, exceptions.

[euterpenc]

Scientists are indeed working on immortality and have a great lead towards it, and have already extended the lives of flies by 3 times the normal standard. It's all impossible until it's done.

There are so many flaws in your arguements that I'm getting tired of picking them out, because you keep finding new ways to produce a flawed arguement.

If signs are created by our belief that they are signs, it is just as possible that relativity itself is created by a belief in it.

So why would God waste his time on puny mortals? Because he can't waste time. He has no time limit, he has an infinite amount. Nothing is too great or too small for God. He IS God after all.

I too liek the DM analogy, wonderfully executed my friend.

[KuJo]

i think god would give us this sign if he had hands - :rocker:

[ApeTheDog]

Scientists are indeed working on immortality and have a great lead towards it, and have already extended the lives of flies by 3 times the normal standard. It's all impossible until it's done.

There are so many flaws in your arguements that I'm getting tired of picking them out, because you keep finding new ways to produce a flawed arguement.

Come on, please. I don't think there are any flaws in my argument, and I'd love to learn if there were. It would give me many new things to think about.


If signs are created by our belief that they are signs, it is just as possible that relativity itself is created by a belief in it.

No. Signs are not created by our believe that there are signs. Signs are INTERPRETED as signs by our believe that there are signs. The other way around would be magic.


So why would God waste his time on puny mortals? Because he can't waste time. He has no time limit, he has an infinite amount. Nothing is too great or too small for God. He IS God after all.

I too liek the DM analogy, wonderfully executed my friend.

HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW THAT NOTHING IS TOO GREAT OR TOO SMALL FOR GOD?

I put that in caps, because this is the important thing I've been saying. How the hell do you know these things? You do not, and you cannot. So stop pretending they are facts.

[euterpenc]

Come on, please. I don't think there are any flaws in my argument, and I'd love to learn if there were. It would give me many new things to think about.



No. Signs are not created by our believe that there are signs. Signs are INTERPRETED as signs by our believe that there are signs. The other way around would be magic.



HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW THAT NOTHING IS TOO GREAT OR TOO SMALL FOR GOD?

I put that in caps, because this is the important thing I've been saying. How the hell do you know these things? You do not, and you cannot. So stop pretending they are facts.

More importantly, how do YOU know that I don't?

[ApeTheDog]

I know that you don't, because if you had a link to proof that God exists, you wouldn't need to interpret signs to prove his existance. And you do do that - the proof is this thread which you started.

[Helios]

Say instead you ask me to give you some money. Right now. Did I do it? No. Am I real? Yes. So, why didn't I give you any money? I mean, you asked, right? Shouldn't that be enough?

I asked God for a sign and got one. I'm totally serious. I'm also not even about to try to prove it. You would either believe me or you wouldn't. If you want to believe in God, you'll probably believe my story. If you don't, you'll probably believe I'm lying, crazy, or making assumptions about what I experienced that are unwarranted. Either way, the only thing that happens is a strengthening of your current convictions, and possibly a firm belief that I'm a nutter. None of these outcomes interest me.

Exactly what I was thinking, even down to the money illustration! Yeah, you can't go demanding favors from people you have no relationship with!





Naturally specific things won't work, those things don't work even not relating to god, as life is too unpredictable.


I'll have to disagree. Long ago and far away I was a rather spiritual person. I asked for shit all the time, and wsa always delighted with how fast I got it! Now I don't mean "Hey, drop me a C note, will ya?" But meaningful things, sometimes they were tangible, other time just a 'sign'. I would typically ask for a an exact sign inside a time frame, I liked 48hr most of the time.


You know as I write this I as wondering why I let that part of myself and that relationship go away, just stupid I guess. But then again it isn't the only thing I have wasted, being so awash in my own misery.

Regardless, I really don't care what everyones believes too much, I know what I have lived already myself, yet still I find that I lack the fiber to do much with it, so I can't condemn those who lack even a past to relate to.

[God]

I'm here, but I gave up on you years ago. You're all going to hell.

[euterpenc]

I know that you don't, because if you had a link to proof that God exists, you wouldn't need to interpret signs to prove his existance. And you do do that - the proof is this thread which you started.

That's not proof. You don't know my motive, in addition, time has passed between now and the time that this thread has begun, and as time passes things change. Your puny intellect is clearly demonstrated by your lack of ability to formulate a solid arguement. You have an arguement, it's just very weak, and can be dispatched easily. And to that I say: :banana:

[euterpenc]

Exactly what I was thinking, even down to the money illustration! Yeah, you can't go demanding favors from people you have no relationship with!







I'll have to disagree. Long ago and far away I was a rather spiritual person. I asked for shit all the time, and wsa always delighted with how fast I got it! Now I don't mean "Hey, drop me a C note, will ya?" But meaningful things, sometimes they were tangible, other time just a 'sign'. I would typically ask for a an exact sign inside a time frame, I liked 48hr most of the time.


You know as I write this I as wondering why I let that part of myself and that relationship go away, just stupid I guess. But then again it isn't the only thing I have wasted, being so awash in my own misery.

Regardless, I really don't care what everyones believes too much, I know what I have lived already myself, yet still I find that I lack the fiber to do much with it, so I can't condemn those who lack even a past to relate to.

One person's testimony isn't enough.

Sexual omnivore would mean bisexual, or do you do animals too? (I mean that seriously, not as an insult)

[euterpenc]

I'm here, but I gave up on you years ago. You're all going to hell.

Even those who have defended your existence?

:duel:

[abathur]

It would seem rather counter-productive to show ones self when the point of the bible seems to be: getting people to believe by faith, and of free will. A clear sign would seem to be counter-productive to these goals.

It's like asking why they don't let you watch the football game before you place your bet.