Are Asians more gifted?

[floyd]

asians are smarter, live longer, make better action movies, and build better cars. is it in everyone's interests to understand why and figure out how to replicate that universally? or is better to pretend everyone is equally gifted? Discuss...

http://theseoultimes.com/ST/?url=/ST/db/read.php?idx=707

[eyebyte_atWork]

asians are smarter, live longer, make better action movies, and build better cars. is it in everyone's interests to understand why and figure out how to replicate that universally? or is better to pretend everyone is equally gifted? Discuss...



Its cultural -

Same can be seen with jewish people in the US.

and that better action movies - can;t agree - but then again thats subjective.

Most ethnic populations when arriving in the US, if in large numbers in a short time, have been observed to have gone through a rough period. In NY there was sudden influxes of Irish, Italians, and Jews. This cause problem at the onset to the point where 7 of 10 prositutes were of jewish descent - fast forward to the 70's where the stereotypical docter was jewish and wealthy. Same can be said for Italian and Irish.

Nowdays we see Asians, Indian and other people come here in smaller numbers - usually to go to college/grad_school - so we only see their county's best. Ofcourse they look good at first glance.

All of these seem to be linked more to culture/society than genetics. One could argue that genetics are involved because they can stand upright and talk - true genetics contribute. But to point at one race and say it is smarter than the rest has flaws at best because one cannot filter out cultural factors from any test's results.

{I could go on - but I will wait to see where this goes}


-EYEBYTE

[Madrigal]

*crouches down, closes her eyes, covers her ears*

[headfonez]

*crouches down, covers eyes, covers ears

[floyd]

i am referring to asians globally not in the u.s.. the growth of asian economies in the last twenty five years has been startling.

do you disagree that brain size correlates to intelligence?

[headfonez]

*covers head

[eyebyte_atWork]

*crouches down, closes her eyes, covers her ears*

I think he is trying to start more crap. I think he likes discord - again I get the sensation he is actually an artisan - he acts just like my little brother (ISTP)

[headfonez]

he called you an s

[KuJo]

asians are pushed really hard by their families to achieve, and its because of how forceful they are towards academics that most asians dont have as much creativity. Brain size is less important than the cultural aspects.

[eyebyte_atWork]

asians are pushed really hard by their families to achieve, and its because of how forceful they are towards academics that most asians dont have as much creativity. Brain size is less important than the cultural aspects.


Thank you.

[headfonez]

does anyone see the ignorance on this board

1. there is no proof
2. you and me make up our own resolutions, so threads like these are based on opinions
3. man....

[eyebyte_atWork]

does anyone see the ignorance on this board

1. there is no proof
2. you and me make up our own resolutions, so threads like these are based on opinions
3. man....


Thank you too.

You are correct.

[Lee]

What is so hard about recognising that an average does not apply to every person who fits the category of "asian" or "black" or "white". And what is so hard about recognising how unhelpful, vague and useless those categories are.

Because no "racial" grouping is always better at one thing than any other group, any kind of racial discrimination will always be bad for society, because it stops capable and willing people from doing the things that they are capable and willing to do.

edit: kept nice and short for eyebyte.

[floyd]

*crouches down, closes her eyes, covers her ears*

relevant side note - this journalist was working on an article about men wearing makeup. he started wearing makeup, as an experiment (without explaining he was working on an article), and he noticed how his friends and family used humor to censure his behavior. so, he ended up learning how social norms are reinforced. the social norm is that good parenting and environment are all important. however, the scientific research consistently shows shared environment is meaningless after adolescense (except for anti social behavior) and that genetics are the most significant variable.

anyway, the last thread seemed to be mired in black vs. white... and i am more interested in the asian edge, what can be learned from the differences. why asians, on average, having an advantage should not be some hot button issue but something to explore and learn from. genetics presently are a highly influential shell that encapsulates our individual will. i hope as humans evolve, "individual will" be the main influence on how people turn out... but that point has not been reached.

eyebyte it's S to have strong opinions yet know little about the scientific evidence. also, i find it odd that you treat anyone who agrees with you like it proves your point... that's meaningless.

lee you seem to be playing all sides. it's useful to know what the current facts are to advance knowledge and guide future research. science by nature classifies things, and groupings are constructive for the purposes of science as long as the evidence merits the grouping.

[Lee]

1. there is no proofThere is no absolute proof that any physical theory we currently use is ture.

And you are dismissing the studies which have been done on this subject with no evidence to your claims. Suggesting that the researchers might have been baised, might have used bad methods, or might be wrong acheives nothing. Because I could say the same about any study which suggests the opposite.

By simply casting doubt on these studies (and there is always doubt on everything), you are not making any solid argument for your own position.


2. you and me make up our own resolutions, so threads like these are based on opinionsIt is all opinion, opinions about what the facts gathered are telling us. But just because people can have different opinions does not mean those opinions are all equally true. That attitude you have taken allows a white supremicist to be as equally valid as the distinctly anti-racist position I have taken, is that really what you want?

[eyebyte_atWork]

relevant side note - this journalist was working on an article about men wearing makeup. he started wearing makeup, as an experiment (without explaining he was working on an article), and he noticed how his friends and family used humor to censure his behavior. so, he ended up learning how social norms are reinforced. the social norm is that good parenting and environment are all important. however, the scientific research consistently shows shared environment is meaningless after adolescense (except for anti social behavior) and that genetics are the most significant variable.

anyway, the last thread seemed to be mired in black vs. white... and i am more interested in the asian edge, what can be learned from the differences. why asians, on average, having an advantage should not be some hot button issue.

eyebyte it's S to have strong opinions yet know little about the scientific evidence. also, i find it odd that you treat anyone who agrees with you like it proves your point... that's meaningless.

lee you seem to be playing all sides. it's useful to know what the current facts are to advance knowledge and guide future research. science by nature classifies things, and groupings are constructive for the purposes of science as long as the evidence merits the grouping.


You want an asian girlfriend don't you? Admit it.

You sound like my friend "J"

[headfonez]

Oh, I'm sorry. What I meant to say was Gabba gabba gabba gabba gabba gabba gabba gabba gabbba gabba

[eyebyte_atWork]

Oh, I'm sorry. What I meant to say was Gabba gabba gabba gabba gabba gabba gabba gabba gabbba gabba


Good one.

[floyd]

actually, i am not generally attracted to asians, so no. i do admit to a bias in preferring japanese automobiles, based on personal experience of reliability and the empirical evidence that shows they are significantly more reliable than american or european cars.

[Lee]

lee you seem to be playing all sides. it's useful to know what the current facts are to advance knowledge and guide future research. science by nature classifies things, and groupings are constructive for the purposes of science as long as the evidence merits the grouping.Yes, you are right. I stated in a earlier thread that making categories of people is useful in communication, and to recognise common patterns. But I stressed that these categories are arbitray, can be moved around at will, and no one characteristic can reliably tell us anything else about an individual. So the racial categories which are a label for an entire person, are using a useless standard. This will become more apprent now that variations previously seperated geogrphically can now interbreed.

I do not think there is anything wrong with observing a frequent correlation between certain physical characteristics and intelligence, and I find the idea that sich frequent correlations exist plausable, and the figures would seem to support it. But because none of these characteristics is exclusive. Any such use of these arbitrary racial categorizations in making decisions about individuals is ultimately bad for everyone.

Take Lance Armstrong. His talent and physical ability and lung capacity are not common for his skin colour, but yet he can still have them. Because no skin colour has a 100% monopoly over any talent.

[floyd]

asians are pushed really hard by their families to achieve, and its because of how forceful they are towards academics that most asians dont have as much creativity. Brain size is less important than the cultural aspects.

so how would that explain consistent superiority on fluid intelligence tests like raven matrices iq tests which are entirely abstract (based on complex shape patterns)?

[floyd]

Yes, you are right. I stated in a earlier thread that making categories of people is useful in communication, and to recognise common patterns. But I stressed that these categories are arbitray, can be moved around at will, and no one characteristic can reliably tell us anything else about an individual. So the racial categories which are a label for an entire person, are using a useless standard. This will become more apprent now that variations previously seperated geogrphically can now interbreed.

I do not think there is anything wrong with observing a frequent correlation between certain physical characteristics and intelligence, and I find the idea that sich frequent correlations exist plausable, and the figures would seem to support it. But because none of these characteristics is exclusive. Any such use of these arbitrary racial categorizations in making decisions about individuals is ultimately bad for everyone.

Take Lance Armstrong. His talent and physical ability and lung capacity are not common for his skin colour, but yet he can still have them. Because no skin colour has a 100% monopoly over any talent.


anyone with a knowledge of statistics knows that the averages are not absolute rules which apply to all data points... i think that's even borderline common sense.

[eyebyte_atWork]

actually, i am not generally attracted to asians, so no. i do admit to a bias in preferring japanese automobiles, based on personal experience of reliability and the empirical evidence that shows they are significantly more reliable than american or european cars.


Cool - You wanna talk cars and their quality -I love this subject. I am a car nut.

I agree with what you said about the current state of qualtity - but point out that this has not always been the case - I have owned toyotas and Nissans from the 70's and 80's and they were crap (though fun to drive). Nowdays they are pretty good in quality - but feel generic.

We can discuss this subject - I have loads to say.

[eyebyte_atWork]

anyone with a knowledge of statistics knows that the averages are not absolute rules which apply to all data points... i think that's even borderline common sense.


Individual variances are so great that any variance between races disappears - otherwise we would not be having this debate.

[Lee]

Let's use feet size as a an indicator of race. Then if we find that people with smaller feet tend to be smarter on average, then we can make statements like 'people with small feet are smarter than people with big feet'.

Because using feet size is biologically just as applicable as skin colour, or eye shape, or hair colour.

[Madrigal]

relevant side note - this journalist was working on an article about men wearing makeup. he started wearing makeup, as an experiment (without explaining he was working on an article), and he noticed how his friends and family used humor to censure his behavior.

This is sad, as I have always liked a man with some masterfully-applied eyeshadow.

[nihilist]

i hope as humans evolve, "individual will" be the main influence on how people turn out... but that point has not been reached.


If you are implying that genetics is the root cause of how people turn out, then I suggest you refrain from the intellectual superiority while simultaneously expressing baseless conclusions.

Reducing intelligence to race as an abstraction is useless, but in such a case, one has to define the construct of giftedness. Diligence, efficiency, and the drive to acquire revered jobs doesn't necessarily equate to being gifted. A gifted person understands concepts exponentially faster than the average human being. It's intuition in it's purest form. It's not surprising that the few truly gifted minds were also creative. Unfortunately, contemporary society has exxagerated the term so much, that anyone with half a mind and a medium for expression is characterized as gifted.

Asian values of diligence stem from culture, not genetics. In most cases, diligence leads to repitition which further leads to harnessed, efficent rote thinking. Where asians differ from caucasians is in the degree of self discipline, which is a cultural construct.

[Wiki]

Herro.

Being part asian myself. I come to the concrusion dat asian pepole are berry berry smart.

[coffeezombie]

asians are smarter, live longer, make better action movies, and build better cars. is it in everyone's interests to understand why and figure out how to replicate that universally? or is better to pretend everyone is equally gifted? Discuss...

Some East Asian cultures produce quality products and some of them encourage educational achievement for historical reasons, not genetic ones. To change western society and make it more "Asian," you'd have to change the history of western society for centuries.

To prove that its not genetic, I think all you'd have to do is look at Asians adopted into western families to see that they have characteristics much more similar to the society that they were raised in rather than the culture they originally came from.

[kendoiwan]

The triad, yakuza asians right? Those asians are the asians we're talking bout right?

[MacGuffin]

To prove that its not genetic, I think all you'd have to do is look at Asians adopted into western families to see that they have characteristics much more similar to the society that they were raised in rather than the culture they originally came from.Ding ding!

My wife and her two brothers are asian and adopted. Did not fit the stereotype at all.

[cjs55]

You'd have to do it based on more than two examples also : P.

There is a remaining IQ difference. Other things which do change in that case of adoption (most likely attitude) could be seen to be mainly cultural.

[floyd]

If you are implying that genetics is the root cause of how people turn out, then I suggest you refrain from the intellectual superiority while simultaneously expressing baseless conclusions.

Reducing intelligence to race as an abstraction is useless, but in such a case, one has to define the construct of giftedness. Diligence, efficiency, and the drive to acquire revered jobs doesn't necessarily equate to being gifted. A gifted person understands concepts exponentially faster than the average human being. It's intuition in it's purest form. It's not surprising that the few truly gifted minds were also creative. Unfortunately, contemporary society has exxagerated the term so much, that anyone with half a mind and a medium for expression is characterized as gifted.

Asian values of diligence stem from culture, not genetics. In most cases, diligence leads to repitition which further leads to harnessed, efficent rote thinking. Where asians differ from caucasians is in the degree of self discipline, which is a cultural construct.


and where, pray tell, does culture come from? do you honestly think it is independent of genetics?

this asian work ethic b.s. is what a lot of racists use to explain why asians succeed. i would guess the average minimum wage worker works harder than the average white collar worker. work ethic without sufficient aptitude/intelligence won't get you very far it seems.

adoption studies thus far have shown no environmental intelligence and personality influence holding up after adolescence, so how can you argue that culture is the key variable. there is no evidence for that position only popular. opinion maintains it as a legitimate theory.

[eyebyte_atWork]

The long and short of the matter is that this kind of shit is impossible to measure or prove because the lines are blurry. (Nature vs Nurture)

[floyd]

The long and short of the matter is that this kind of shit is impossible to measure or prove because the lines are blurry. (Nature vs Nurture)

i am curious about what books and articles have you read on this subject to come to that conclusion?

[cjs55]

Actually, more and more study into the human genome unblurs those lines in some way, that is, clarifies where nature does come into play.

[eyebyte_atWork]

i am curious about what books and articles have you read on this subject to come to that conclusion?

Try three years of sociology and anthropology in college. (I can get the text book ISBN numbers for you)

Still curious?

I would be curious about your reference material - but I do not care. (I have already done my undergrad work)

Like I posted previously - I am not here to educate anyone - because people believe what they will no matter what evidence you supply. If you need evidence see some of my previous posts. If thats not good enough for you - whatever.

Personally I think your attacking me is kinda funny - I am actually accomplished in a multitude of areas and have degrees in Physics , Math, and almost Structural Engineering (damned divorce)- have added background in finance and sociology(not to mention my artistic background or sporting activities). What have you done? Go ahead attack me some more. I have been attacked in court by lesser people before and I am sure I will again. (lessor defined by merit)

peace.

[eyebyte_atWork]

Actually, more and more study into the human genome unblurs those lines in some way, that is, clarifies where nature does come into play.


Then you add statistics and it blurs up again - the very definition of std dev.

[Madrigal]

I am actually accomplished in a multitude of areas and have degrees in Physics , Math, and almost Structural Engineering (damned divorce)- have added background in finance and sociology(not to mention my artistic background or sporting activities).

This is really cool, you never talk about yourself and try to hide your greatness. But one can see it anyway. ;)

[kuranes]

The question of whether biological "nature" influences culture is interesting, but I wonder how it could be measured. Certainly knowing whatever nature might supply Asians with an advantage would not help me as a non-Asian. If I were already Asian, I wouldn't need the hypothetical knowledge either.

[Hypnos]

The question of whether biological "nature" influences culture is interesting, but I wonder how it could be measured. Certainly knowing whatever nature might supply Asians with an advantage would not help me as a non-Asian. If I were already Asian, I wouldn't need the hypothetical knowledge either.
Indeed, being informed that I'm smarter than white people is like winning at the Special Olympics.

:D

[kuranes]

Indeed, being informed that I'm smarter than white people is like winning at the Special Olympics.

:D There are always exceptions to the rule, of course!

[Hypnos]

There are always exceptions to the rule, of course!
Doesn't everyone get a medal? ;P

[kuranes]

Doesn't everyone get a medal? ;P

No. But we'll create one especially for you. Have Hustler sign it, or something.
;P

[eyebyte_atWork]

Doesn't everyone get a medal? ;P


Yeah - I wanna medal

[kuranes]

Yeah - I wanna medal

When I call your name, please step forward and accept your certificate.

"Step forward Tin Man!"

[floyd]

Try three years of sociology and anthropology in college. (I can get the text book ISBN numbers for you)

Still curious?

I would be curious about your reference material - but I do not care. (I have already done my undergrad work)

Like I posted previously - I am not here to educate anyone - because people believe what they will no matter what evidence you supply. If you need evidence see some of my previous posts. If thats not good enough for you - whatever.

Personally I think your attacking me is kinda funny - I am actually accomplished in a multitude of areas and have degrees in Physics , Math, and almost Structural Engineering (damned divorce)- have added background in finance and sociology(not to mention my artistic background or sporting activities). What have you done? Go ahead attack me some more. I have been attacked in court by lesser people before and I am sure I will again. (lessor defined by merit)

peace.

how is asking you for the influences/evidence of your point of view an attack? i just get the impression you have made up your mind without much exposure to the research OR a belief that all research is fuzzy/worthless OR i wonder whether you have read some convincing research i have not seen. your continual use of personal anecdotes does make me wonder as i can produce anecdotes to explain pretty much anything (regardless of reality), which is why anecdotes are worthless as evidence. you are the one who has tended to get aggressive with me in the past, and the above post is basically more of that... i.e. your percieve that i am attacking you so you are justified in attacking me (paranoid logic). i am sure whenever you are a jerk, it's because the other person was a jerk to you.

are you proposing we have an SJ-style merit off? let us see who has jumped through more SJ hoops.

[kuranes]

all research in fuzzy/worthless explain pretty much anything as evidence.

I'm interested in this research on fuzzy/worthless. Some candor there, it seems. Who are the leaders in this sphere?

[floyd]

I'm interested in this research on fuzzy/worthless. Some candor there, it seems.

i declare a misquote.

[eyebyte_atWork]

how is asking you for the influences/evidence of your point of view an attack? i just get the impression you have made up your mind without much exposure to the research OR a belief that all research is fuzzy/worthless OR i wonder whether you have read some convincing research i have not seen. your continual use of personal anecdotes does make me wonder as i can produce anecdotes to explain pretty much anything (regardless of reality), which is why anecdotes are worthless as evidence. you are the one who has tended to get aggressive with me in the past, and the above post is basically more of that... i.e. your percieve that i am attacking you so you are justified in attacking me (paranoid logic). i am sure whenever you are a jerk, it's because the other person was a jerk to you.

are you proposing we have an SJ-style merit off? let us see who has jumped through more SJ hoops.


So nothing, right?

THats ok - we all have to start somewhere.

[floyd]

So nothing, right?

THats ok - we all have to start somewhere.

the macho T element rears its head.

seeing how we all end in the grave i find your hubris amusing. do you have some delusion of being significant? even einstein is not significant in the grand scheme of things.

[kuranes]

i declare a misquote.


Yes, it was a a joke, Floyd. In case you didn't pick up on that.

[Lee]

I have no qualifications and have never been to college.

[floyd]

Yes, it was a a joke, Floyd. In case you didn't pick up on that.

as was mine.

[kuranes]

as was mine.

Good. One has to tread lightly in these matters as a Mod. I am usually posting as Kuranes BTW. .

[MacGuffin]

Good. One has to tread lightly in these matters as a Mod. I am usually posting as Kuranes BTW. .No, I am Kuranes!

Shit, I forgot to logout my admin username!

[headfonez]

Now we know and knowing is half the battle.

[kuranes]

Pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain . . uh . . .

[headfonez]

Dont feel bad. I usually post as Wiki

[Hypnos]

No. But we'll create one especially for you. Have Hustler sign it, or something.
;P
Happy dance! :banana:

Anyway, there is strong evidence that intelligence is innate (>0.5 correlation in twins studies) and heritable (>0.3 correlation). However, that still leaves 0.5 and 0.7 in effect, respectively. To determine whether or not one ethnic group is more intelligent than other would require the administration of a vast number of IQ tests across the world, not just on subjects in the US an Europe. Otherwise, you can't achieve the necessary statistical controls to make the determination.

Also, the Flynn Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect) puts a wrench into the whole works.

Anecdotally, only Jews seem overrepresented and only blacks/Hispanics seems underrepresented in the sciences. Given that there are a few billion Asians, can't say that they are. As for Jews and blacks, since they're self-selecting to the sciences due to cultural norms, can't say much about them either.

[kuranes]

Dont feel bad. I usually post as Wiki

Do NOT. Do NOT.

[Madrigal]

This thread is growing at an alarming pace.

[eyebyte_atWork]

Now we know and knowing is half the battle.


GI Joe - Go Joe!

[kuranes]

Numbah ONE G.I.!!

[cjs55]

actually, someone was studying that idea of greater jewish intelligence at my university.

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002812.html

That's huge and I haven't read all of it. Beginning is interesting though at least. Actually that article will probably piss people off for calling them intellectual con-artists or fools at the beginning.

Just ignore that part.

[s0978]

its because of how forceful they are towards academics that most asians dont have as much creativity.
fuck you, sour grapes!!




(nonsense post befitting nonsense thread)

[Hustler]

I tend to adhere to the 'best and brightest' theory of Asian performance in America and, in fact, the perception of Asian performance in Asia. If you're from a family of dirt farmers in western China, you're not getting into America. In fact, you're not even literate and you're definitely not taking any IQ tests, so you're probably skewing your country's alleged national average IQ. If you're from a family of driven, space-deprived, hard-working city-dwellers in Nanjing or something, you have a shot at parlaying determination and academic achievement into a ticket to America.

Maybe natural selection in Asia over the last 70,000 years or so has given Asians a higher brain to body mass ratio, thereby making Asians more intelligent. Maybe linguistic and/or cultural reasons are behind their alleged superior performance on various tests. Whatever the case, with the exception of Japan, Singapore and Hong Kong, Asia is basically third-world and decades behind Europe or America by virtually any socio-economic metric you could apply. Perhaps their supposed superiority is not really an advantage at all.

[kuranes]

The tiger has been sleeping. It yawns. It stretches its arms and flexes its paws. Soon it will awake.

[philonightmare]

How do you account for stoner-asians? O.o

[Dman]

Has anyone here ever read “The Bell Curve”? I haven’t, but a stats prof in my grad school recommended it. I believe it may have also touched on this subject.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0029146739/103-3341277-2271013?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

[Madrigal]

Has anyone here ever read “The Bell Curve”? I haven’t, but a stats prof in my grad school recommended it. I believe it may have also touched on this subject.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0029146739/103-3341277-2271013?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

You're kidding, right?

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=6848&page=1

[eyebyte_atWork]

I tend to adhere to the 'best and brightest' theory of Asian performance in America and, in fact, the perception of Asian performance in Asia. If you're from a family of dirt farmers in western China, you're not getting into America. In fact, you're not even literate and you're definitely not taking any IQ tests, so you're probably skewing your country's alleged national average IQ. If you're from a family of driven, space-deprived, hard-working city-dwellers in Nanjing or something, you have a shot at parlaying determination and academic achievement into a ticket to America.



I was with you up to here - cause it was here where you still made sense.... then you kept speaking.



Maybe natural selection in Asia over the last 70,000 years or so has given Asians a higher brain to body mass ratio, thereby making Asians more intelligent. Maybe linguistic and/or cultural reasons are behind their alleged superior performance on various tests. Whatever the case, with the exception of Japan, Singapore and Hong Kong, Asia is basically third-world and decades behind Europe or America by virtually any socio-economic metric you could apply. Perhaps their supposed superiority is not really an advantage at all.

Natural selection occurs over many more years - something on the order of millions - not 100,000 years or so. Read a book on the theory.


and yes - I am awake.

[mgb]

Has anyone here ever read “The Bell Curve”? I haven’t, but a stats prof in my grad school recommended it. I believe it may have also touched on this subject.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0029146739/103-3341277-2271013?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

Way to go space cadet.

[Dman]

You're kidding, right?

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=6848&page=1

oops. guess I'd better read that thread. thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

[mgb]

Natural selection occurs over many more years - something on the order of millions - not 100,000 years or so. Read a book on the theory.

and yes - I am awake.

wrong. I estimate no more than 100 years for humans. Any more than that just wouldn't make sense.

[eyebyte_atWork]

Way to go space cadet.


You know - I liked the other avatar - the lion that was laughing. When are we going to see him again?

[Madrigal]

You know - I liked the other avatar - the lion that was laughing. When are we going to see him again?

Don't say that, I like the unicorn!

[kuranes]

He changes them quite often. There IS something about this unicorn one that just doesn't quite have that Mgbradsh "kick" to it. I would not have guessed it as a possibility he was considering if i saw it amongst a bunch of images. Just shows that Mgdbradsh can't ever be "figured out."

[mgb]

You know - I liked the other avatar - the lion that was laughing. When are we going to see him again?

It was yawning. Probably never. I rarely repeat avatars. Only when Miss Anthropic wants me to for some weird reason.

But this one is so symbolic.

[mgb]

He changes them quite often. There IS something about this unicorn one that just doesn't quite have that Mgbradsh "kick" to it. I would not have guessed it as a possibility he was considering if i saw it amongst a bunch of images. Just shows that Mgdbradsh can't ever be "figured out."

Sure I can. Go read the thread in relationships about going for a drink with an INTP.

[Madrigal]

He changes them quite often. There IS something about this unicorn one that just doesn't quite have that Mgbradsh "kick" to it. I would not have guessed it as a possibility he was considering if i saw it amongst a bunch of images. Just shows that Mgdbradsh can't ever be "figured out."

He's chaotic good, how could he not be a unicorn???

[Madrigal]

oops. guess I'd better read that thread. thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

After you're through those 500 posts, maybe you might want to check this thread, which spun off of that one (as did this one about asians):

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=6883&page=1&pp=10

And of course, I'll save you Headphonez's "Please prove me wrong about weird people'. :)

[Dman]

holy crap, no wonder I never read that other thread, it's almost 500 posts long.

Who won? ;)

and should I buy the book or is it a waste of time?

sorry to derail

but not sorry enough to refrain from derailing

just seems like a similar themed thread so far

[eyebyte_atWork]

So no lion???? sad things here - I know it was yawning - but to me it was laughing.

[eyebyte_atWork]

holy crap, no wonder I never read that other thread, it's almost 500 posts long.

Who won? ;)

and should I buy the book or is it a waste of time?

sorry to derail

but not sorry enough to refrain from derailing

just seems like a similar themed thread so far

What are you trying to do?


lol - just kidding.

It co-existed with your SUV thread

[mgb]

So no lion???? sad things here - I know it was yawning - but to me it was laughing.

maybe in a bit, just for you. I'm still getting a lot of mileage out of the unicorn though. I laugh every time I see it.

One day though, I'd like to go back to the Cowbell one. Though, it wasn't liked by many.

[Madrigal]

holy crap, no wonder I never read that other thread, it's almost 500 posts long.

Who won? ;)

and should I buy the book or is it a waste of time?

sorry to derail

but not sorry enough to refrain from derailing

just seems like a similar themed thread so far

Uhm, I don't know who won. I stopped reading after like, page four... hehe, or post 40, for you!

Don't even ask who won. You might even get a response...

I just called her a racist and then chilled out. Worked for me. She's gone now, btw, as far as I can tell. So don't try to talk to her because you'll seem like you just landed there on an air balloon.

[Lee]

holy crap, no wonder I never read that other thread, it's almost 500 posts long.Yeah, and they only count my posts as 1, so it is a bit misleading. :D

[eyebyte_atWork]

Yeah, and they only count my posts as 1, so it is a bit misleading.

I thought it was only me.

[kuranes]

Don't even ask who won. You might even get a response...



LOL

*begs* Pleeeeze NOOO

Can the virus be contained ? Is the CDC coming?

*Makes sign of the cross as he sees the shadow of cjs55 and Lee coming*

[Madrigal]

*Makes sign of the cross as he sees the shadow of cjs55 and Lee coming*

Hahahahahahah

[eyebyte_atWork]

and me - don't forget I am already here.

[Lee]

HahahahahahahThe question is - can he feel me and cjs55 coming? :blink:

Anyway, you know you love it really.

[Dunearhp]

In my suburb I am surrounded by asians, and after being here for a number of years I have come to a shocking conclusion. THEY ARE JUST ORDINARY PEOPLE.

[eyebyte_atWork]

The question is - can he feel me and cjs55 coming? :blink:

Anyway, you know you love it really.


funny.

[eyebyte_atWork]

In my suburb I am surrounded by asians, and after being here for a number of years I have come to a shocking conclusion. THEY ARE JUST ORDINARY PEOPLE.


But their DNA... what about their DNA?

[mgb]

In my suburb I am surrounded by asians, and after being here for a number of years I have come to a shocking conclusion. THEY ARE JUST ORDINARY PEOPLE.
Doesn't sound like you are using science to me.

[philonightmare]

In my suburb I am surrounded by asians, and after being here for a number of years I have come to a shocking conclusion. THEY ARE JUST ORDINARY PEOPLE.
Yeah, I know. It took me a while to convince myself of that too. :mellow:

[Dman]

What are you trying to do?


lol - just kidding.

It co-existed with your SUV thread

That explains it. That stupid SUV thread took up too much of my time as it was. But I enjoyed it.

Have to stop for the day at post 120. Can’t wait to see what’s in it later, it’s like a “to be continued” episode on TV

[eyebyte_atWork]

I hope every one enjoyed the show. It was my pleasure putting it on.

[Claverhouse]

I have no qualifications and have never been to college.
Ditto.


And actually, in Asia there are rather large numbers of quite poor Asians; and Asians who are not highly intelligent. Still, I'd believe the Japanese are on average more intelligent than other races, including other Asians: but then as I've said, intelligence isn't everything: there are other equally admirable talents and qualities.


Claverhouse http://intpcentral.com/forums/images/smilies/ninja.gif

[kuranes]

The question is - can he feel me and cjs55 coming? :blink:

Anyway, you know you love it really.

But you were THINKING of Eyebyte while you did it! I'll never forgive you for that! Hope you like that beat-up couch in the living room, with that old ratty bathrobe of yours always on it. This is your new bedroom!

[cjs55]

why did you drag me into this!?

[kuranes]

*Holds up crucifix. Backs slowly away*

[cjs55]

Shouldn't have said my name.

*evil laugh*

[Dolphin]

Do asians make good gifts? If so, what are the different sizes of asians and where can I buy them?

These racism threads are stupid.

My POV is that its entirely cultural. IQ is subjective and culturally biased so blah blah to that. DNA is designed to fit your environment which means for your environment you are smart, but go into a different environment and who knows. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.

[kuranes]

why did you drag me into this!?

Bugorrah, so it's DRAGGIN' th' two of yas in there thet I be doin' NOW, is't?

[cjs55]

I think I'll try not to imagine that, thanks.

[kuranes]

Like the scene on the jet in Goldfinger. "Goodbye Oddjob. Goodbye cjs55."

[Dunearhp]

Doesn't sound like you are using science to me.

No one else is. Why should I be any different.

[KuJo]

i tease asians by drawing abstract shapes, because they can only draw circles, squares, and parrallelograms etc.

[Hypnos]

I wonder if Floyd has a response to the critique of his hypothesis in my last post.

[kuranes]

I wonder if Floyd has a response to the critique of his hypothesis in my last post.

I wondered the same thing.

[floyd]

I wonder if Floyd has a response to the critique of his hypothesis in my last post.

i thought it was valid and constructive. i think there needs to a greater emphasis on research and development in the world.

anyway, practically speaking, i think it is useful to know certain groups have certain advantages or disadvantages (of course better and more extensive research is needed to illuminate/clarify what those are). asians, on average, are more ectomorphic (larger head, stringier body) than caucasians and blacks. now if asians, as a group, have an intelligence and life span advantage, maybe individuals can assume those advantages by choosing a lifestyle which would produce a more ectomorphic body type, such as adopting a regimen of daily aerobic exercise (as opposed to having to replicate the multi-generational natural selection that yielded that body type for asians).

also, if i was a researcher looking for genes related to intelligence it might be useful to compare a group of intelligent people of all races with intelligent people from each racial group. if statitistical evidence merits groupings, those groupings can have value to understand all humans. the point is grouping people is not inherently about racism when it comes to many scientific inquiries. as physics has shown all matter is energy/c2, but it's still useful to know the differences of the various periodic elements or atomic particles.

[Architectonic]

Just to put a spanner in the works, I was under the impression that floyd is/was talking about East Asians in particular. India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Pakistan etc are not really considered to be part of East Asia (sometimes refered to as southern Asia instead). Secondly, modern Indians etc. actually share many physical characteristics with the 'caucasoid' race. But I guess this points out the arbitrary nature of classifying an individual into a racial group based on physical characteristics.

[Hypnos]

[...] But I guess this points out the arbitrary nature of classifying an individual into a racial group based on physical characteristics.
Indeed. In this age of shotgun DNA analysis, race needn't even enter the picture on the question of identifying gene sets contributing to intelligence. Since there are obviously many brilliant people from all races, it's likely that these genes would be weakly correlated at best, therefore obviating race as a useful label.

The analogy to particle physics is weak because they are distinguished precisely by their significant differences. A muon with the mass of an electron is, well, an electron.

[Hustler]

I was with you up to here - cause it was here where you still made sense.... then you kept speaking.



Natural selection occurs over many more years - something on the order of millions - not 100,000 years or so. Read a book on the theory.

Wow, if you're going to insult me, try to get your facts straight, man. Don't just bullshit me. All people of European and Asian (modern Asians, possibly not negritos or other indigenous peoples found in places like Malaysia and The Philippines) descent can trace their origins to a common ancestor no more than about 70,000 years old. He was a resident of the Nile region, and it was from his genetic line that all modern "white" and "Asian" people are descended. As such, things like the Mongoloid eyefold of Asians or white skin of caucasians are features which have been selected for over the last 70,000 years or so. While the exact number is contested, our species itself is thought to be approximately 250,000 years old (the oldest skulls found are about 195,000 years old), not millions of years old. So, I believe it is YOU who needs to get back to the books.

[eyebyte_atWork]

Wow, if you're going to insult me, try to get your facts straight, man. Don't just bullshit me. All people of European and Asian (modern Asians, possibly not negritos or other indigenous peoples found in places like Malaysia and The Philippines) descent can trace their origins to a common ancestor no more than about 70,000 years old. He was a resident of the Nile region, and it was from his genetic line that all modern "white" and "Asian" people are descended. As such, things like the Mongoloid eyefold of Asians or white skin of caucasians are features which have been selected for over the last 70,000 years or so. While the exact number is contested, our species itself is thought to be approximately 250,000 years old (the oldest skulls found are about 195,000 years old), not millions of years old. So, I believe it is YOU who needs to get back to the books.


Duh.

Never said anything that contradicted this (In fact that is exactly what I have pointed out in the past - and can show you the post if you'd like). but that last part - thats is in error. The diveristy we see today is from adpatation - and does not change us enough to make mulitple species - I think you and I agree about that. Adaptation only - not differing strains.

I guess we differ in the way we define "natural selection" - I took the term more globally and associate it with the differing strain of man that have co-existed. And thats what I took exception to. I thought that is what you were saying we had different strains today - Now I can see that we actually agree (aside from our use of terminology - and I will freely admit - terminology is not my best suit).

Thanks for the clarification - I can see that we are on the same page (submatter wise).

I was not trying to insult you - I was disagreeing due to terminology (moot point seeing as we actually agree)- but if I were trying to insult you I could have involved more a personal attack buddy. Insulting you has never been my intention.

Get a grip.

[nonsequitur]

And actually, in Asia there are rather large numbers of quite poor Asians; and Asians who are not highly intelligent. Still, I'd believe the Japanese are on average more intelligent than other races, including other Asians: but then as I've said, intelligence isn't everything: there are other equally admirable talents and qualities.


Claverhouse http://intpcentral.com/forums/images/smilies/ninja.gif

*feels amused because the original "Japanese" were Buddhist monks from China*

[Zephyrus055]

I have a hypothesis!

In America, SJs reign supreme, practice nepotism, and limit opportunities for NTs. In Asian countries, NTs are given more respect and allowed more opportunities to express their ingenuity. Furthermore, Asian companies might allocate human resources more efficiently. American companies often have a problem with this - practicing cronyism.

[eyebyte_atWork]

I have a hypothesis!

In America, SJs reign supreme, practice nepotism, and limit opportunities for NTs. In Asian countries, NTs are given more respect and allowed greater opportunities to express their ingenuity.


You forgot to add that in America the dreams of NT's are usually crushed too.

[Zephyrus055]

You forgot to add that in America the dreams of NT's are usually crushed too. Yeah that's true too. And then we get depressed and we're kind of useless.
NT Revolution!

[Claverhouse]

*feels amused because the original "Japanese" were Buddhist monks from China*
Ha ha, although that would account for the increased intelligence a bit: monks aren't fools. ( They get supported by the common folk and in return pray for them: the Tibetan monks even mechanized that with spinning prayer-wheels. )

Wiki Origins J... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_people)


The most accepted theory is that present-day Japanese are descended principally from both the Jomon, a paleo-Asiatic people, and the Yayoi, a neo-Asiatic people, with cultural influences from the Korean kingdoms of Gaya and Baekje, and also from the Sui, and Tang Dynasty of China. The Ainu, Koreans, and Japanese are believed to be derived from the paleo-Turkic peoples of the Tungusic-Altaic group. The Northern Mongoloid peoples of North Asia and Central Asia, have relatively tall statures, well-defined features (such as longer noses, and higher cheekbones), and relatively hairy bodies and faces, features that are considered to define the "prototype" Mongoloid physical type. As with the Koreans, the Japanese and Ainu inherit these prototypical physical features. The Japanese trace their ancestry to Malay, Polynesian, Korean, Jomon people, and the Yayoi people, thus making their Mongolian traits unique. Their comparatively shorter-nosed and hairless Asian counterparts to the south, however, are believed to be due to adaptation to the damper climates, and to their mixing with Austronesian prototypes, when migrating to the Pacific Ocean.


Although, life being what it is, some people believe they are the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel (http://www.biblemysteries.com/library/tribesjapan.htm)... Based partly of Abraham's near unnatural killing of his son. When I start my blog I shall have strong things to say on Abraham. The Bible really is detestable half the time...


Claverhouse http://intpcentral.com/forums/images/smilies/ninja.gif

[nonsequitur]

^ Apparently my Chinese teacher had no idea what she was talking about, and I should've gone to check it up first. ;) Thanks for the information.

[mgb]

^ Apparently my Chinese teacher had no idea what she was talking about, and I should've gone to check it up first. ;) Thanks for the information.

Oh, you just think you are so shit hot because you have more "gifts" than everyone else.

Just teasing.

This thread is funny because it's riddled with so many personal misconceptions about such a huge number of people.

[kendoiwan]

The same asians who brought us the triad and yakuza :whistle:

[nonsequitur]

Oh, you just think you are so shit hot because you have more "gifts" than everyone else.

Just teasing.

:smooch: Oh, you sweet, sweet man.

[MasterMerk]

All I know is that those Krazy Koreans can sure play some wicked-ass Starcraft.

[Claverhouse]

The same asians who brought us the triad and yakuza :whistle:
You mention this several times: being a top Triad boss isn't for the dim-witted. Anyway all peoples/races/nations/places have home-grown criminals and brigands. Some of whom are exported elsewhere. There was once a Welsh member of the US mob ( may have been some name like Owney Madden, but unsure ), and the Welsh were probably among the most law-abiding people in Europe since they got religion and lived down the mediaeval tag of, 'Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a Thief'*.


Claverhouse http://intpcentral.com/forums/images/smilies/ninja.gif


* Note that in this hysterical country you could be prosecuted for racialism if you repeated that line in public: our very own chief imbecile is now under investigation for screaming 'Fucking Welsh' when they declined to vote for him as usual during the last election...

Edit: 'as usual' meaning that since the start of the 20th century Wales was a labour stronghold, esp South Wales, due to extreme poverty etc.. But that twat fueled their inane nationalism by giving them a Welsh Parliament type thing.

[kendoiwan]

Being a boss of most any criminal enterprise isn't for the dim-witted... but i don't see any threads questioning whether South Americans or Russians, or the Irish, and so on etc are more gifted... and since i don't see anyone else mentioning the particularly brutal and tribal nature of the dark side of various Asian cultures I took it upon myself to mention it... and since it was ignored the first time... :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:

[mgb]

Everyone knows the Irish aren't more gifted than anyone.

[MacGuffin]

The Irish are drunks.

[Claverhouse]

Shouldn't think so... They are singularly weak in the arts, and their most famous authors are generally of English extraction, like Swift or Shaw. Great songs though. And other talents.


Claverhouse http://intpcentral.com/forums/images/smilies/ninja.gif




As I went home on Sunday night as drunk as drunk could be
I saw a thing in her thing where my old thing should be
Well, I called me wife and I said to her: Will you kindly tell to me
Who owns that thing in your thing where my old thing should be

Ah, you're drunk, you're drunk you silly old fool, still you can not see
That's a lovely tin whistle that me mother sent to me
Well, it's many a day I've travelled a hundred miles or more
But hair on a tin whistle sure I never saw before.

[Hustler]

I guess we differ in the way we define "natural selection" - I took the term more globally and associate it with the differing strain of man that have co-existed. And thats what I took exception to. I thought that is what you were saying we had different strains today - Now I can see that we actually agree (aside from our use of terminology - and I will freely admit - terminology is not my best suit).

Your terminology is wrong then. The term "natural selection" has a specific meaning in this context and it really isn't open to subjective interpretation. Natural selection is one of the processes by which the traits of a population are determined. This can even cause differences between disparate populations of the same species, as in the "racial" distinctions between human beings. Why are white people white? Because the early European agrarian diet was deficient in vitamin D to the point that it was a successful mutation for people to have lighter skin so that more sunlight could get into cells and help produce vitamin D that way. Why do Asian people have eyefolds? Because modern Asians came from central Asia, around Mongolia, where the weather is cold and the eyefold gave the eyes extra protection against icy winds. It is also why people of northern Asian descent have narrower noses than most people. It warms the air along the way to the lungs ever so slightly more than wide noses do. Things like this (and perhaps the alleged higher brain to body mass ratio of Asians) are natural selection. Mutations occur in populations, and those mutations which prove advantageous for a population are kept while those which are not advantageous are discarded. These things occur in mammals over thousands or tens of thousands of years (a function of lifespan and generational periods). Evolution as a whole occurs in the species of the world over eons.


I was not trying to insult you - I was disagreeing due to terminology (moot point seeing as we actually agree)- but if I were trying to insult you I could have involved more a personal attack buddy. Insulting you has never been my intention.

It comes off as snarky at the least and insulting at the worst when you choose to phrase your disagreement like this:


I was with you up to here - cause it was here where you still made sense.... then you kept speaking.

Natural selection occurs over many more years - something on the order of millions - not 100,000 years or so. Read a book on the theory.

You accused me of not making sense, which is tantamount to accusing me of being irrational. Then you went on to accuse me of ignorance by suggesting I read a book (implying that I have not). You should be aware that these are pretty serious condemnations when directed at an INTP but, all that said, if you say it was never your intention to be insulting, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you on this one.

[floyd]

The Irish are drunks.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_alc_con

[Dolphin]

Even if you could prove that Asians are more gifted than so what. That will just lead to more hate and discrimination.

People are racist due to ignorance or lack of understanding. The monkey sphere principle says that people are biologically incapable of understanding people outside their social circle. Its easier to hate someone then to try to understand them. There are also cultural connections to race.

As far as intelligence goes, I do believe in the multiple intelligence theories. Though they are connected as a whole, just different parts of the brain handle different things. But taking a biological spin on intelligence, then we can only assume you can become as intelligent as your brain will allow. Genetics control biology. Please be careful with this I am not saying that one race is superior to another.

Is IQ a good measure of intelligence? NO! I have taken an online IQ test before. I got it by following a bunch of links off of similarminds.com The IQ test results said I had an IQ of 147. That is complete bullshit. True the test was mostly logical, mathematical and pattern finding, which I do well in. But no one in their right mind would believe that I was genius.

Civilizations evolved differently because of their environment. That should be obvious. The natural resources of the environment determine what cultures must do in order to survive.

Society itself needs to grow up.

[Dolphin]

Dolphins are smarter than humans.

[panda]

Dolphins are smarter than humans.
I envy their lifestyle, but I wouldn't say they're smarter.

[Dolphin]

Wouldn’t it be funny if humans acted like dolphins and dolphins acted like humans? Just for a day or two. Dolphins are very caring creatures, humans need that.

[mgb]

Wouldn’t it be funny if humans acted like dolphins and dolphins acted like humans? Just for a day or two. Dolphins are very caring creatures, humans need that.

I think they did a Simpsons' episode about that. It didn't work out so well for the humans.

[Hypnos]

Wouldn’t it be funny if humans acted like dolphins and dolphins acted like humans? Just for a day or two. Dolphins are very caring creatures, humans need that.
Except when dolphins bite, molest and bully swimmers :)

They have to have a mean streak to survive -- killing sharks by shattering their gills and bruising their organs with their beaks.

Makes the legendary Onion article (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28315) even funnier!

[eyebyte_atWork]

blah blah blah

blah blah blah

You accused me of not making sense, which is tantamount to accusing me of being irrational.

blah blah blah

blah blah blah




You did not make sense to me at the time - now that we're clear and actually on the same page - we're cool (as far as I am concerned).

Anything else you wanna say?

[eyebyte_atWork]

Dolphins are smarter than humans.


Some scientist truely believe this. I for one find dolphins kind of snooty.

[Hustler]

Anything else you wanna say?

I'll get back to you on that.

[Jacque]

Were it not for the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, America might now have a predominantly minority population. Perhaps, interning citizens of German descent instead of Japanese descent during WWII.

It's also funny how history describes the Chinese laborers of the Central Pacific Railroad vs the Irish laborers of the Union Pacific. And how the company brought Chinese wrokers from the Alaska gold rush because Chinese immigrants were no longer permitted to enter the country.

A more multi-cultural America would have surely saved us from our many jingoistic follies. Concerning what race might do for intelligence, it can improve through interaction and cooperation or make idiots of all through competition and bigotry.

[Jacque]

Makes the legendary Onion article (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28315) even funnier!

They'll be needing *those* if they expect to make it into an Ivy League university.

[eyebyte_atWork]

I'll get back to you on that.









:banana: :banana: :banana:













.

[Jacque]

Dolphins are smarter than humans.

And they're helping us win the war on terror, unless they choose to bite the hand at Sea World:

Armed and dangerous - Flipper the firing dolphin let loose by Katrina (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1577753,00.html)

[Tensore]

I had an asian girlfriend. Long story how it ended, but damn, she sure as hell was gifted... :sobs:

[Zephyrus055]

I had an asian girlfriend. Long story how it ended, but damn, she sure as hell was gifted... :sobs: You showered her with gifts http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/holy.gif?

[eyebyte_atWork]

You showered her with gifts http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/holy.gif?


Lovely image

[Mr. Beef]

Here is my (and a modified evolutionary psyc.) theory on asian intelligence. Ready?!! Ok, here goes: First off, i would like to start off by discussing the meaning of a correlation. A correlation is a relationship between two different variable factors (i.e. height and weight, IQ and wealth, criminality and drug use). There is a difference between a direct correlation and an indirect correlation. A direct correlation describes a relationship between two factors that are solely dependent on each other (i.e. force and acceleration). Most of the time it is useful to study indirect correlations for scientific discovery. That being said, it is NOT a waste of time to generalize about this topic as there seems to be a substantial correlation between asians and high intelligence. Of course it's not direct, but it is higher than you would probably think. First, let's provide some evidence as to asians having higher intelligence. I havnen't researched recently, but i've come across numerous datatables showing that asians score in the top percentiles in math, SATs, IQ, and a shitload of other assessments. In addition, i can vouche for it empirically. Almost every top tier University I have been to or gone to has had a disproportionate number of asians, as do Math Olympiad teams, etc. One thing to take note of is how despite high math scores they seem to do considerably worse on verbal assessments. This could simply be because their natural environment required less verbal skill, or because they learn language visually, or a number of reasons (NO, it is not because they are mostly non-native or whatever.....studies show that asians who are taught english as a first language score slightly higher than asians who learned english as a second language though still lower than whites on tests of verbal ability). Anyway, though lagging in verbal ability their largest deficit is in one of the most important of cognitive faculties.....CREATIVITY. On culture-fair tests of creativity Asians have been reported almost consistently as scoring lower. Also, Asians have the lowest number of ADD-afflictees, a "disorder" closely related to creativity. This would agree with the observation that they have contributed relatively few ideas/concepts/products/breakthroughs to society through history. Their rigid political structures and distrust of new ideas is why they're nations haven't done anything impressive. It's not a stereotype....it's a FACT. A cold hard incontrovertable FACT. So it really depends on how you define intelligence. Clearly IQ doesn't factor in one of the most important aspects of intelligence, which is creativity. Now, I have some theories (never leave home without 'em :) ) derived from evolutionary pschology as to why asian people think the way they do and white people think the way they do. And no, they are not crackpot and are actually extensions of sciam theories. Unfortunately the remaining space on this message box will not suffice for them (math joke).

[Mr. Beef]

Another interesting thing to note is that despite having low creativity, asians still have high spatial ability, a trait linked with creativity or the ability to think in images.....care to discuss?

[Tensore]

You showered her with gifts http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/holy.gif?

well, not exactly :lol:

[edited] offtrack, my bad

[Mr. Beef]

I would appreciate it if you would take your personal life elsewhere. This is a forum for discussing a specific topic, not about some girl you met. I don't mind you sharing, but if it's going to throw the thread off track then post it elsewhere.

[eyebyte_atWork]

I would appreciate it if you would take your personal life elsewhere. This is a forum for discussing a specific topic, not about some girl you met. I don't mind you sharing, but if it's going to throw the thread off track then post it elsewhere.


Sorry - this thread was derailed a while back.

[Mr. Beef]

Yes, it was....and I was trying to salvage it.

[Lee]

Apparently, a consequence of people populating arctic climates 1000's of years ago, has left those who are now decended from those people with very good visual-spatial intelligence. Presumably this was a selected trait amongst those ancestors in an environment that is notoriously difficult to navigate, whereby noticing small difference in the visual field could be the difference between life and death.

As to why other people may have developed greater visual spatial skills or less creativity, I am not sure. I could propose a few possibilities, but they would be very speculative.

[YardGnome]

How do you account for stoner-asians? O.o

Being a Stoner does not make one stupid...

[Mr. Beef]

Well, I have some ideas. We must first look at why creativity exists to begin with......to adapt to a changing environment. The most accurate way of determining why people posess traits that they do is by looking at the environments from which they came, as the environment is what results in this specialization (disregarding racial admixture). Since the entire asian race originated in the cold climates of central and northern asia, and since they have experienced relatively little racial integration, we can study the effects that their environment had on their intelligence. A cold arctic climate would require good navigational abilities, but wouldn't necessarily change too much. A very cold climate doesn't really change too much at all, actually, through the seasons. All they needed to learn was how to hunt and stay warm. After the ice age ended thousands of years ago, the asian race settled on the plains of asia and formed an agricultural society that required little change or adaptation.They didn't really migrate, either (except to japan and south asia, but this was thousands of years ago and regardless they are generally not a nomadic people). The "white" race on the other hand was constantly at odds with the european environment, which was dramatically changing and was much more affected by the end of the ice age than asia. They spread out all over the place. In about 5000 BC, the Indo-European race fled their ancestral homelands in the Caucasus to spread out in all directions, including even asia. Their travels and experience across a wide territorial expanse probably required them to be fairly adaptive, and creative.

[Mr. Beef]

the ability to create is essentially less prevalent in more civilized peoples. this is because they have less need to develop and more need to maintain rather than develop. this is a very generalized theory, but it would explain why more primitive cultures tend to be "right-brained", as pop-psychology calls it and have higher rates of ADD. The "white" race has been civilized for a much shorter period of time than the "yellow" race. Again, this is just a way of looking at it.

[mgb]

Well, I have some ideas. We must first look at why creativity exists to begin with......to adapt to a changing environment. The most accurate way of determining why people posess traits that they do is by looking at the environments from which they came, as the environment is what results in this specialization (disregarding racial admixture). Since the entire asian race originated in the cold climates of central and northern asia, and since they have experienced relatively little racial integration, we can study the effects that their environment had on their intelligence. A cold arctic climate would require good navigational abilities, but wouldn't necessarily change too much. A very cold climate doesn't really change too much at all, actually, through the seasons. All they needed to learn was how to hunt and stay warm. After the ice age ended thousands of years ago, the asian race settled on the plains of asia and formed an agricultural society that required little change or adaptation.They didn't really migrate, either (except to japan and south asia, but this was thousands of years ago and regardless they are generally not a nomadic people). The "white" race on the other hand was constantly at odds with the european environment, which was dramatically changing and was much more affected by the end of the ice age than asia. They spread out all over the place. In about 5000 BC, the Indo-European race fled their ancestral homelands in the Caucasus to spread out in all directions, including even asia. Their travels and experience across a wide territorial expanse probably required them to be fairly adaptive, and creative.

I'm going to start with this.

http://brneurosci.org/info/enter_key.jpg

Then I'm going to say that Asia is bigger than Mongolia.

And don't even feel the need to reply.

[eyebyte_atWork]

the ability to create is essentially less prevalent in more civilized peoples. this is because they have less need to develop and more need to maintain rather than develop. this is a very generalized theory, but it would explain why more primitive cultures tend to be "right-brained", as pop-psychology calls it and have higher rates of ADD. The "white" race has been civilized for a much shorter period of time than the "yellow" race. Again, this is just a way of looking at it.


Yeah - I think you are mistaken - The senario descibed by you is a Sj dominated society.

[Dolphin]

I think I have ADD am I asian? The white race is more civilized? What? I am so confused right now.

Where am I?

Edit: I always thought that a more civilized society would be more creative, am I wrong? A civilized society would encourage creativity no?

[Lee]

Since the entire asian race originated in the cold climates of central and northern asia, and since they have experienced relatively little racial integration, we can study the effects that their environment had on their intelligence. A cold arctic climate would require good navigational abilities, but wouldn't necessarily change too much.These are harsh environments, where a mistake in navigation away from an intended destination could easily mean death. In such an environment, coated in snow, with few visual markers to aid in navigation and no mordern technology, there would have been a substantial selection pressure in favour of those with better visual-spatial intelligence.

This hypothesis would seem to be supported by studies, that have revealed decendents of suh ancestors have higher than average visual-spatial intelligence, even though they have been raised outside of that environment and culture. Indicating strongly that the genes were having a strong influence in the development of that skill, regardless of other influences in development.

You actually claim that 'A cold arctic climate would require good navigational abilities', which means that you recognise the selection pressure that would be occuring here. You then follow on to say, 'but wouldn't necessarily change too much.' This of course means that it could have also changed a lot, and it would appear that it indeed did change a lot.


A very cold climate doesn't really change too much at all, actually, through the seasons. All they needed to learn was how to hunt and stay warm.The natives of arctic climates were nomadic, living a hunter-gathering lifestyle, which meant periodic movements in response to seasonal changes and migrations, with the added problem that recources could often be depleted in one location, which encouraged migration to a new untapped resource.

They did not just have to keep still in one spot, running out their igloo to kill a few animals now and then. No human group can survive long without resources, and recources are not going to come looking for you, you have to look for them.

Besides, you shoot yourself in the foot here. It is precisely because staying warm is so important, that there would have been a strong selection pressure for highly efficient visual-spatial ability, leading to better navigation. Because returning home from the hunt could result in death should you wander in the wrong direction, since freezing to death is a real danger.


After the ice age ended thousands of years ago, the asian race settled on the plains of asia and formed an agricultural society that required little change or adaptation.Required little change or adaptation? to what end? were these agricultural societies almost perfect? requiring little change or adaptation.

This is folly, there are always inprovements to be made, these east asian agricultural societies were hardly the peak of human achievement. I can only think that you actually mean 'the agricultural societies that formed in east asia, had few pressures to change'.

This is perhaps something I could agree with, although I suspect the reasons behind this are many.


The large flat plains coupled with easy travel over the many rivers allowed political unification over a large area to develop, in what is now China.
Political unification under successive emporers limited competition, and resisted political change.
Without competition to force competitors into adopting better, newer technology and ideas, china failed to develop at the pace of many Eurasian societies.


They didn't really migrate, either (except to japan and south asia, but this was thousands of years ago and regardless they are generally not a nomadic people).The original Chinese were certainly nomadic, as the group we now know as the Chinese were originally inhabitants of northern China. However after developing farming, and the political, technological and military power that comes as a consequence, they quickly conquered much of the rest of east Asia.

Once they became politically unified, and geopgraphically seperated from Europe, they became more insular.


The "white" race on the other hand was constantly at odds with the european environment, which was dramatically changing and was much more affected by the end of the ice age than asia. They spread out all over the place. In about 5000 BC, the Indo-European race fled their ancestral homelands in the Caucasus to spread out in all directions, including even asia. Their travels and experience across a wide territorial expanse probably required them to be fairly adaptive, and creative.An important question that you seem to have missed is - was creativity selected for in Europe or was creativity selected against in China?

How creativity was selected for or agianst, I don't really know. And I certainly do not think the vague theories you have suggested explain this at all. Of course, I have my own ideas, but I certainl


the ability to create is essentially less prevalent in more civilized peoples. this is because they have less need to develop and more need to maintain rather than develop. this is a very generalized theory, but it would explain why more primitive cultures tend to be "right-brained", as pop-psychology calls it and have higher rates of ADD.You do realise how backwards this is?

Civilisation is built upon creativity. It is built upon creative minds who descover new theories, new inventions, new businesses, new artwork etc. Without the constant improvements by creative people, there would be no civilisation. If the ability to create, was more prevelent in uncivilised people, why are they still uncivilised? since it is creativity that built civilisation in the first place, and allows it to continually flourish and expand.

Furthermore, why is it that uncivilised people have lived, and in some corners of the globe, are still living in exactly the same way as countless generations of ancestors before them!? this is anything but a sign of widesspread creative talent. It would appear incredibly unimaginative and conservative, especially when we consider that civilisation has only been around for a fraction of human existence.

Anyway, ADD, right-brained etc. these are full of vague correlations, with a pethora of different characteritics and causes, pop-psychology at its worst. They really are not very useful, especially in this context.


The "white" race has been civilized for a much shorter period of time than the "yellow" race. Again, this is just a way of looking at it.Yes, and one which doesn't make very much sense.

Besides, you have completely failed to specify how this resulted in selection pressures that could lead to the result you suggest i.e. how does civilisation select out creative genes?

[Dolphin]

Creativity leads to better adaptability. So a more civilized society ( which I am assuming would survive longer than an uncivilized society ) would be more creative in order to survive.

Instead of IQ I call it CQ or creativity quotient.

But creativity can help you problem solve right? Its a lot faster than using brute force logic to solve a problem ( Brute force logic a-b-c-d-e-f, creativity a-d-b-f).

I define intelligence as understanding. I believe understanding is used for problem solving ( after all you need to understand a problem in order to solve it ).

The question is, does CQ=IQ?

[Sackanaka]

I don't feel smarter than any other race, but I do feel smarter than some people I know.
Also, native Asians have first pickins at the latest video games, which I'm pretty jealous of. Those gifts should be mine.

The question I keep thinking of is, even if we come up with conclusive evidence that there is a difference in intelligence beyond the standard deviation (or whatever statistical mechanism is appropriate), is it righteous to let that information become publicly accepted? It's not a theological issue- huge changes in policies would be made, radicalists would swell in population orgies, and there just may be more problems involved.

While it is true that social laws are inventions and not entirely necessary or universal, they were invented, and here we are today, able to talk to each other over the internet thinking of ways that could potentially screw everything over just because we were itching for what seemed to make perfect sense within contemporary paradigms.

Paradigm shifts man, paradigm shifts.

[Dolphin]

I don't feel smarter than any other race, but I do feel smarter than some people I know.
Also, native Asians have first pickins at the latest video games, which I'm pretty jealous of. Those gifts should be mine.

The question I keep thinking of is, even if we come up with conclusive evidence that there is a difference in intelligence beyond the standard deviation (or whatever statistical mechanism is appropriate), is it righteous to let that information become publicly accepted? It's not a theological issue- huge changes in policies would be made, radicalists would swell in population orgies, and there just may be more problems involved.


Exactly. This shouldn't be argued. I think we should argue the ramifications of this before actually arguing it itself.

Its like arguing on what bomb is the best. Once we find out, we or someone else who was listening is going to use it.

So we should argue the ramifications of arguing which bomb is the best.

[Mr. Beef]

Actually, I agree with a lot of the critique you gave me. I was just throwing out possibilities, but I think you're right: creativity was selected against Asia. They have been a sedentary agricultural community with little reason to improve for years. I do, however, disagree with your assertions that civilized societies do NOT have less creative people. Sure, new theories, products, ideas are all necessary, but as society becomes more civilized it places more emphasis on conformity and effeciency rather than individuality and creativity. This is why there are more "worker bees" in civilized societies. Civilized societies tend to place LESS emphasis on creativity, and that is why i would completely disagree that there are just as many creative peoples in civilized societies. And as for your refutation of why primitive societies are not advanced, i would have to say that this is completely flawed. The reason that they are not advanced isn't because they lack the creative skills to form a societal structure, it's because they lack the logical organziation capabilities. If you'll notice, many primitive societies are much more cultural and place more emphasis on individualism. The problem with these societies is that they lack logical abilities, not creativity/imagination. Also, you suggested that there were only "vague" correlations between ADD, creativity and "right brain" dominance......this i would completely disagree with. There have been numerous assessments showing that ADD children score higher on lateral thinking and creative imagery, etc. If you have read anything about Roger Sperry's split brain studies you would know that the left hemisphere is primarily judging/logic/language whereas the right is primarily imagery and intuition. Creativity comes from a joint effort of the two, but relies heavily on the subconcious images of the right.

[Mr. Beef]

That's actually bullshit. This most certainly should be argued. There are countless data to suggest differences in racial intelligence and I think that science should NEVER step down to equality. I am not racist, but i don't think that you should abandon a topic for some feel-good equality crap.

[Mr. Beef]

An ADD society is NOT an SJ-dominated society, it is more likely an SP dominated society. Hence why there are few asians with ADD

[Dolphin]

SP's are more likely to have ADD?

Okay for my next thread I will discuss the most efficient ways to wipe the human race off of this planet.

So we shouldn’t discuss if discussing that topic is moral? What if someone used our conclusions and actually succeeded? Well there goes the human race…

[Mr. Beef]

HAH! that's completely ridiculous.....we're looking at this scientifically....why would anyone want to do that? This has nothing to do with bashing asians or whatever, it has to do with exploring scientific thought. And by the way, if we're not going to talk about it then why was the thread every started?

[Mr. Beef]

And i said that we shouldn't let morality be a FACTOR when deciding to discuss a topic.

[Dolphin]

Which society would be more intelligent? A NT majority or a SJ majority?

Which society would be more civilized? A NT majority or a SJ majority?

[Mr. Beef]

That's a very open-ended question that can't really be answered. I'm positive that an SJ majority would be more civilized, because they're basically made to ogranize. As for more intelligent, NTs tend to be smarter than SJs. This being said, civilized societies are generally more intelligent than uncivilized ones. But most uncivilized societies are not NT, rather SP. Most civilized ones are SJ with an NT minority.....this seems to be an important formula for a coherent society.

[Dolphin]

That's a very open-ended question that can't really be answered. I'm positive that an SJ majority would be more civilized, because they're basically made to ogranize. As for more intelligent, NTs tend to be smarter than SJs. This being said, civilized societies are generally more intelligent than uncivilized ones. But most uncivilized societies are not NT, rather SP. Most civilized ones are SJ with an NT minority.....this seems to be an important formula for a coherent society.
That is unfortunately my conclusion as well. But here is an interesting thought- most NTs value intelligence, so because they value it they become it. Does that make sense? So the question I see it as, do Asians value intelligence? If so, then they probably are. So now we would have to measure the values of the culture as a whole and compare them to our own.

One way to see if a society values intelligence is to take a look at their education system…

[red]

I value intelligence. Actually I value it soo much that I do whatever I can to be more intelligent. I read books, I observe their behaviour, I even imitate their behaviour in hopes that I will adapt their superior intellect. I'm obsessed with nerds and intelligent people. I read about them. I stalk them on the internet. I look for recorded behavioural patterns on the internet. I stare at them until it sort of creeps them out. I worship the ground they walk on. I worship the books that give me this knowledge. I value intelligence.

[Dolphin]

I value intelligence. Actually I value it soo much that I do whatever I can to be more intelligent. I read books, I observe their behaviour, I even imitate their behaviour in hopes that I will adapt their superior intellect. I'm obsessed with nerds and intelligent people. I read about them. I stalk them on the internet. I look for recorded behavioural patterns on the internet. I stare at them until it sort of creeps them out. I worship the ground they walk on. I worship the books that give me this knowledge. I value intelligence.
Good thing I am not intelligent then.

[Claverhouse]

What has truth got to do with morality ?

And who decides which truths are to be inaccessible to the common horde ?

'Osiris is a Dark God'



Claverhouse http://intpcentral.com/forums/images/smilies/ninja.gif



I value intelligence. Actually I value it soo much that I do whatever I can to be more intelligent. I read books, I observe their behaviour, I even imitate their behaviour in hopes that I will adapt their superior intellect. I'm obsessed with nerds and intelligent people. I read about them. I stalk them on the internet. I look for recorded behavioural patterns on the internet. I stare at them until it sort of creeps them out. I worship the ground they walk on. I worship the books that give me this knowledge. I value intelligence.
http://intpcentral.com/forums/images/smilies/blushing.gifhttp://intpcentral.com/forums/images/smilies/blushing.gifhttp://intpcentral.com/forums/images/smilies/blushing.gifhttp://intpcentral.com/forums/images/smilies/wub.gif

[Sackanaka]

What has truth got to do with morality ?

And who decides which truths are to be inaccessible to the common horde ?

'Osiris is a Dark God'

I'm not sure about either of those questions, or that quote. I assume you can either regard truth and morality to be independent but overlapping, or the other route that all morality is truth. Since as evident by this forum alone, truth is hard to come by, I find it harder to think of all truth (science, I'm assuming) is moral.

Or well, we can just let the social class defract into a brave new world and let Osiris or whoever take the reigns from there.

[meanlittlechimp]

I think it's more about social and political forces more than anything else. If you would have asked who the best mathematicians were in 600 BC, you might say the Greeks or Persians. If you asked in 500 AD, you might say the Romans/Italians. In the 8th Century you might say the Arabs or the Mayans. In the the 15th century a different answer. In the 19th century you might say the Germans. Now you might say the Koreans according to high school math achievement. 15 years ago you would say the Japanese. What would you say about the Greeks, Italians and French now. What you would you say about Koreans in 500 BC?

I'm Asian and I wish you were right! ; )

[inspectorgadget]

asians are smarter, live longer, make better action movies, and build better cars. is it in everyone's interests to understand why and figure out how to replicate that universally? or is better to pretend everyone is equally gifted? Discuss...

http://theseoultimes.com/ST/?url=/ST/db/read.php?idx=707

bad post. Just... bad.

[Gracchus]

The dumbest race is probably the one that spends the most time trying to prove its superiority.

[carbon cold]

Necro..much. o_O

[MCYhon]

The dumbest race is probably the one that spends the most time trying to prove its superiority.

:theclap:

[airjaw]

The article was more interesting than this thread.

[md5fungi]

Is this thread officially resurrected?

If so, I'd like to add that not all Asians are more gifted than other races, just me.

I'd also like to add that I was sodomized by an alien life form.

[airjaw]

I'm gifted, not because I'm asian but because I'm fucking awesome.

[Limey]

I'm gifted, not because I'm asian but because I'm fucking awesome.

heh, I must have encountered Asian semen or some funky shit at some point (this thread has me wondering) because I'm fucking awesome too!

I can only hope I didn't fucking gargle for crissakes! - I could have narrowly missed creating the next weapon of mass destruction.

[avolkiteshvara]

Me love you long time.

[Limey]

I admire people like McGuffin, for their generosity and how much they give back to the Asian community.
It's a selfless genetic act akin to the great John Lennon who is well known and documented to have sperminated Yoko Ono, who, let's face it, wasn't at the party on looks alone, by any measure.

[Helios]

Well, yeah, casue a hapa can be smart, do better in school, have great hair, but still being packin' some decent sized junk too.




(I dare some one to stuff more sterotypes in a single sentence)

[Oso Mocoso]

The dumbest race is probably the one that spends the most time trying to prove its superiority.

So you don't have a high opinion of the gweilos?

[Limey]

Well, yeah, casue a hapa can be smart, do better in school, have great hair, but still being packin' some decent sized junk too.




(I dare some one to stuff more sterotypes in a single sentence)

Dis fread needs mo' Leni Riefenstahl, meng, so says I, so I do, for das fazerland, oui and ooh lala, but I always become verklempt and say Nazi Schmazi, dems Nuba chicks are hella smokin' braugh! - dem r smokin' at a luvly jubly level me auld mucka.

[g_vartan]

Gifted = hot + smart

(heck yeah btches!)

[MacGuffin]

If my daughter gets her brains from me and her looks from my wife...

She'll need a brain transplant!

[walfin]

If my daughter gets her brains from me and her looks from my wife...

She'll need a brain transplant!

Oh, you're too humble





*snicker*