Dolphins being treated inhumanely

[Dolphin]

Are dolphins being treated inhumanely?

From:

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1254011&page=1



"People demand more and more," said Mauricio Martinez, director of Parque Nizuc, a Cancun water park that features dolphins. "People love it."
But as the number of tourists demanding time with the animals continues to swell, so does the business of capturing them, sometimes under what activists consider deplorable conditions.
…
At places like Parque Nizuc, tourists pay more than $100 each for a chance to pet, kiss or even be propelled through the water by dolphins.
With a single dolphin capable of generating $1 million a year, business is good. But is life good for the dolphins?
Martinez thinks so.
"I think they are very happy here," he said. "They have customers who enjoy being with them — they are enriched, they are motivated."
But when animal activist Ric O'Barry visits a dolphin park, he sees a much darker reality.
"The dolphin smile is nature's greatest deception; it creates the illusion they actually like doing this job," O'Barry said. "But if this dolphin were laying up on the dock dead, it would still look like it's smiling."
During the 1960's, O'Barry became the man who introduced a generation of Americans to dolphins as the trainer for the television show "Flipper."
Five dolphins were used to play the role, and O'Barry says he captured all of them himself, something that eventually made him hate his work.
"The concept of a humane capture is an oxymoron — there is no such animal," he said. "I've captured over a hundred dolphins myself, humanely, and I can tell you it's a lot like rape. It's a very violent procedure."
Second page at: http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1254011&page=2



For O'Barry, the final straw was when his favorite "Flipper" dolphin died in his arms from what he says was stress and depression.
That was 30 years ago, and ever since he and other activists have fought tirelessly to put an end to dolphin captures.
He and his peers have helped produce changes in the United States and Mexico, which have banned or restricted the taking of dolphins from the wild.
In fact, no dolphin park in the United States has brought in a captive dolphin in 10 years. Yet, in other parts of the world, the demand for captive dolphins remains high.
Brokers, who can make up to $100,000 per animal, are scouring the globe for new supplies all the time.
That's why Chris Porter, the biggest dolphin broker in the world — a man hated by animal activists, but who considers himself a friend and protector of dolphins — says his conservation efforts are so important.
"What I provide is an alternative," he said. "I think in order to impact change you need to provide an alternative."
Porter has made a business of buying and selling dolphins — a practice he says is in the interest of conservation, not profit.
"If it wasn't good for the dolphins, I wouldn't do it," he said.
But O'Barry says Porter is nothing more than a greedy businessman looking to make a profit from a detestable trade.
The Solomon Island Captures
In 2003, Porter came to the Solomon Islands in the South Pacific where every year hundreds of wild dolphins are hunted and killed by native fishermen.
He bought up almost a hundred dolphins — the largest single dolphin capture recorded — and quickly found himself under siege as activists began showing up on his doorstep, demanding to see the animals.
"Prior to my arrival no one was even aware of the Solomon Islands, or that they actually killed dolphins on such a large-scale basis," Porter said.
But Dave Phillips, environmentalist and executive director of the Earth Island Institute, says what Porter did was not bring attention to a barbaric practice or save the animals as he claims, but instead lined his pockets with blood money.
And continued from: http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1254011&page=3



"The Solomon captures by Porter were horrific," said Phillips. "Really the worst instance of capture for dolphin trafficking in the world."
Phillips says Porter came to the little-known Solomons to buy dolphins under the radar.
"At a time when most countries would have thrown Porter in jail for engaging in the activities," he said, "here he had found a place where he could slip out a hundred or two hundred dolphins a year. This was the Mecca of dolphin trafficking."
But Porter insists he's looking for a humane solution and says a properly-run marine park is a great alternative that gives a dolphin a home and allows people to gain respect and appreciation.
"I think in order to impact change you need to provide an alternative," he said. "You can simply not abstain from it and that's where I differ with the activists."
'He's a Dolphin Dealer'
O'Barry doesn't trust Porter in part because, as a former trainer, he says he would often deceive the public about his role in captures.
"How is he saving them? He might be saving that one, but he's contributing to the slaughter of 20,000 more by keeping them in business," he said. "He's not an environmentalist, he's a dolphin hunter — he's a dolphin dealer."
O'Barry says activists have found that many of Porter's dolphins were actually caught in parts of the Solomon Islands where no hunt exists — a claim Porter denies.
Porter, however, downplays his plans to re-sell many of the dolphins to parks around the world.
In his first deal, 28 of the Solomon Islands dolphins made the trip halfway around the world to Parque Nizuc in Mexico. The incredible profit Porter is believed to have made from the deal is something he is not anxious to discuss.
"I'm not shy about the number," he claimed. "We're a private company and we have confidentiality agreement with different organizations."
Porter claims that, regardless of the number, any profits he makes from selling dolphins are recycled into his various conservation efforts, including a new dolphin resort he's building in the Solomons.
Continued on page four: http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1254011&page=4



Meanwhile, the Earth Island Institute has convinced the Solomons government into slapping a ban on any future dolphin exports
"What were the Solomons getting out of Porter's plans? A few dollars and a lot of bad public attention." said Phillips.
Porter's Conservation Efforts
With Porter insisting his business was intended to help dolphin conservation efforts, "Primetime" investigated what exactly happened to the 28 dolphins that were shipped to Cancun.
According to documents obtained from the Mexican Wildlife Department, in just 1 ½ years, six of the dolphins died from a variety of causes. Martinez, the director of Parque Nizuc, said his facility gave the dolphins the best care possible, and had a difficult time explaining the deaths.
"That's one of the realities of the business of dolphins, monkeys, horses, whatever," he said.
As far as the dolphins left behind in the Solomon Islands, Porter admitted that in May, seven of the animals died from food poisoning and all 12 of a special breed known as spotted dolphins also died in captivity.
Despite the creatures' deaths and accusations that he simply shouldn't be dealing in dolphins, Porter sees the alternative for the animals as unacceptable.
"Apathy is terrible, and by doing nothing is terrible," he explained. "If I have the opportunity to save 12 animals from a hunt, I really question why am I a bad guy? I think it's worse to leave those 12 animals knowing that they're destined to die."
O'Barry sees things a little differently, saying that fighting to stop what is wrong is the only way.
But O'Barry's biggest opponent may not be brokers like Porter, but the growing streams of tourists eager for a close-up peek at the dolphins' friendly faces.
What do you think about all of this?

[Dolphin]

Another issue:

From:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1577753,00.html



It may be the oddest tale to emerge from the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. Armed dolphins, trained by the US military to shoot terrorists and pinpoint spies underwater, may be missing in the Gulf of Mexico.
Experts who have studied the US navy's cetacean training exercises claim the 36 mammals could be carrying 'toxic dart' guns. Divers and surfers risk attack, they claim, from a species considered to be among the planet's smartest. The US navy admits it has been training dolphins for military purposes, but has refused to confirm that any are missing.
Dolphins have been trained in attack-and-kill missions since the Cold War. The US Atlantic bottlenose dolphins have apparently been taught to shoot terrorists attacking military vessels. Their coastal compound was breached during the storm, sweeping them out to sea. But those who have studied the controversial use of dolphins in the US defence programme claim it is vital they are caught quickly.
Leo Sheridan, 72, a respected accident investigator who has worked for government and industry, said he had received intelligence from sources close to the US government's marine fisheries service confirming dolphins had escaped.
'My concern is that they have learnt to shoot at divers in wetsuits who have simulated terrorists in exercises. If divers or windsurfers are mistaken for a spy or suicide bomber and if equipped with special harnesses carrying toxic darts, they could fire,' he said. 'The darts are designed to put the target to sleep so they can be interrogated later, but what happens if the victim is not found for hours?'
Usually dolphins were controlled via signals transmitted through a neck harness. 'The question is, were these dolphins made secure before Katrina struck?' said Sheridan.
The mystery surfaced when a separate group of dolphins was washed from a commercial oceanarium on the Mississippi coast during Katrina. Eight were found with the navy's help, but the dolphins were not returned until US navy scientists had examined them.
Sheridan is convinced the scientists were keen to ensure the dolphins were not the navy's, understood to be kept in training ponds in a sound in Louisiana, close to Lake Pontchartrain, whose waters devastated New Orleans.
The navy launched the classified Cetacean Intelligence Mission in San Diego in 1989, where dolphins, fitted with harnesses and small electrodes planted under their skin, were taught to patrol and protect Trident submarines in harbour and stationary warships at sea.
Criticism from animal rights groups ensured the use of dolphins became more secretive. But the project gained impetus after the Yemen terror attack on the USS Cole in 2000. Dolphins have also been used to detect mines near an Iraqi port.

Do you think the military should be allowed to use dolphins in this way?

[philonightmare]

Do you think the military should be allowed to use dolphins in this way?
I have no problem with it. They are just another resource.

edit: though I think they should be a bit careful with those loose dolphins. Maybe implant a self-destruct button into their skin as well so if they go balistic, someone can make them explode or something before they cause harm to civilians.

[Dolphin]

Dolphins are intelligent mammals.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/oct04/smarter.html



With their sleek bodies and special sensory abilities, dolphins do not seem to have much in common at first glance with humans and other primates. But research shows that, despite the obvious physiological differences, the two species may share key cognitive abilities, such as the capability to master a symbolic language, coordinate social behaviors and demonstrate an awareness of one's own actions, said University of Hawaii psychology professor Louis M. Herman, PhD, at APA's 2004 Annual Convention in Honolulu. Dolphins even surpass man's closest relative, the chimpanzee, when asked to spontaneously follow the commands of a televised trainer--a measure of their ability to understand abstraction, Herman added.
Beginning in the 1980s, Herman and his colleagues initiated an intensive training program with the dolphins, when the animals were about 2 years old. The dolphins rapidly mastered a vocabulary of hand signals related to objects such as "ball" and actions such as "spiral jump" and their combination into sentences. They even learned to interpret an inverse grammar, showing language aptitude similar to that of bonobo chimpanzees, reported Herman.
In this language, the five successive hand signals "left, basket, right, Frisbee, in" ask the dolphin to place the Frisbee on the right into the basket on the dolphin's left. To follow this command, dolphins must watch and process the entire "sentence" before taking action, Herman said. Dolphins responded correctly about 62 percent of the time--far above the chance level of 4 percent.
The dolphins also demonstrated an ability to coordinate social behavior--which Herman illustrated through videos. First, the researchers trained a pair of animals to perform simultaneous behaviors in response to the sign "tandem." For example, the signs "tandem, jump" would ask a pair of dolphins to leap out of the water next to each other and at the same time--a common behavior in the wild. The trainers then taught the dolphins to respond to the sign "create" by rewarding them only when they perform a novel behavior in response to the sign.
In the video, Herman asked two trained dolphins to make up a behavior and perform it simultaneously--a command communicated by the signal "tandem, create." The pair of animals then dove down, apparently conferred and leapt from the pool together, spitting water from their mouths.
"Some planning must be involved in this," said Herman. "In order to spit water into air, some water must be taken in while underwater. We looked at this type of coordination in various ways, and we are still not sure how the dolphins do this."
It may involve mimicry, he said, as dolphins are unsurpassed in imitative abilities among nonhuman animals.
Herman's dolphins understood the "tandem, create" sign the first time they encountered it, and they also spontaneously followed the hand signals of a televised trainer--something that great apes can do only after extensive training. Comprehending the directions given by a flickering image of a trainer, as opposed to those conveyed by a three-dimensional, real-world trainer, takes an appreciation of abstraction, said Herman. The dolphins even correctly interpreted signals given by white dots against a black background, tracing gestures usually given by a trainer's hands.
The similarities in dolphin and chimpanzee intelligence observed in his and others' labs may shed light on what environmental conditions might favor the evolution of intelligence, said Herman. Perhaps it takes abilities such as social knowledge, communication, language use and abstraction to successfully navigate the complex societies characteristic of both of these animals, as well as humans, he said
Even their brains are comparable to humans:

http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/Dolphin.html



According to Carol J. Howard,
author of Dolphin Chronicles (Bantam 1996),
each of the two Dolphin sub-brains has an independent blood supply.
Dolphins never sleep with both brains at once.
One brain sleeps while the other brain stay awake
(perhaps so that the Dolphins can breathe while asleep).
Dolphin sleep appears to be different from Human sleep
in another way: the brain waves of sleeping Dolphins have no state
that corresponds to the rapid-eye-movement REM sleep of dreaming Humans.
Dolphin brains are more convoluted than Human brains,
but
the cortex of Dolphin brains is thinner than the Human cortex,
so that
the total mass of the Dolphin neocortex is slightly smaller
than the mass of the Human neocortex.
Dolphin brain cells are more uniform and less specialized
than Human brain cells
Dolphins are born with about 40 percent of their brain mass,
and reach full brain development in about 10 years,
while Humans are born with about 25 percent of their brain mass,
and reach full brain development in about 18 years.
The two eyes of the Dolphin are each connected to
one of the two sub-brains.
The Dolphin brain area for visual imaging is
only about one-tenth that of the Human brain,
while the Dolphin brain area for acoustical imaging
is about 10 times that of the Human brain.
Dolphins not only have two sub-brains,
but they also have two sets of sound-pruducing organs,
including two "tongues" on each side of their blow-hole.
Therefore, Dolphins can produce two independent sounds,
from their right and left sides.
They can use interference to focus sounds
and to produce harmonic interference effects.
Two Dolphins speaking can sound like four.
Also from:

http://www.gan.ca/animals/index.en.html



Dolphins have one of the highest mammal brain-to-body ratios, but it is not definitely known that this makes them smarter than other animals. Their behaviour has certainly lead people to believe as much.
Dolphins seem to be self-aware and have demonstrated that they are conscious of their own actions and interactions with their surroundings and with others. Captive dolphins at the Institute for Marine Mammal Studies in Mississippi had been trained to give any litter that landed in their pool to a trainer, who would reward them with a fish. One dolphin learned to cheat the system by hiding the litter she found at the bottom, then tearing off and returning pieces gradually in order to maximize the number of fish she would get for it. This particular dolphin seemed to be capable of planning for the future and delaying gratification, which are rather sophisticated characteristics.
Researchers have not figured out if dolphins have an actual language, but dolphins at Kewalo Basin Marine Laboratory in Hawaii have learned to understand a sign language that was developed by a team of scientists. The scientists believe the dolphins’ responses to the language show a deep understanding and capability for abstraction because the animals recognize the significance of the order of words in a sentence and not just of the words themselves. They were also able to learn the meaning of the sign “create” and would respond to the sign by doing something they had not been taught.
Dolphins are very intelligent even close to human intelligence. So would you force a human to sacrifice their life without knowing all the dangers associated with their mission?

[Dolphin]

Dolphins are better than humans.

[Dolphin]

I have no problem with it. They are just another resource.

edit: though I think they should be a bit careful with those loose dolphins. Maybe implant a self-destruct button into their skin as well so if they go balistic, someone can make them explode or something before they cause harm to civilians.
So what you are saying is that they should kill the dolphins for no reason? The military is the one that messed up not the dolphins.

1. They shouldn’t be training dolphins to kill humans in the first place.
2. It is the militaries responsibility to keep the dolphins from escaping.

The dolphins haven’t harmed anyone yet, for all we know they are happy to be free.

Are you saying a humans life is more important than a dolphins life? Why?

[philonightmare]

So what you are saying is that they should kill the dolphins for no reason? The military is the one that messed up not the dolphins.

1. They shouldn’t be training dolphins to kill humans in the first place.
2. It is the militaries responsibility to keep the dolphins from escaping.

The dolphins haven’t harmed anyone yet, for all we know they are happy to be free.

Are you saying a humans life is more important than a dolphins life? Why?
Like yourself, I'm throwing around subjectivity, ie: I think human life is worth more than dolphin life.

How is this any different from riding into battle on a horse? We simply have more technology to control the animals in a way we are usually unaccustomed to hearing about (and some feel uncomfortable over, such as yourself).

Are you now going to argue animal rights for battles that occurred in the past? People have always used less-intelligent animals to meet their needs. NASA programs ring a bell?

[Dolphin]

Like yourself, I'm throwing around subjectivity, ie: I think human life is worth more than dolphin life.

How is this any different from riding into battle on a horse? We simply have more technology to control the animals in a way we are usually unaccustomed to hearing about (and some feel uncomfortable over, such as yourself).

Are you now going to argue animal rights for battles that occurred in the past? People have always used less-intelligent animals to meet their needs. NASA programs ring a bell?
Was NASA training the monkeys to kill people?

[philonightmare]

Was NASA training the monkeys to kill people?
Do you completely miss the point on purpose, or is your mental capacity equivalent to a chimp's?

[Dolphin]

Do you completely miss the point on purpose, or is your mental capacity equivalent to a chimp's? Got the point- its all subjective. Animals are used for the benefit of humans. Much like the relationship between a man and his dog. But the problem as I see it is when you train that dog to literally kill someone else.

Nice rhetorical comparison by the way.

[ApeTheDog]

Dolphins being treated inhumanely? Well of course. I think it would be quite traumatising to the poor animals if we did treat them like humans. The poor things would have to vote, contribute taxes (how are they going to make money? Who will hire a dolphin?) obey international laws (they'd have to get a visa to swim into another countries terrirorial waters) and so on.

Dolphins being treated inhumanely is a GOOD thing. I am fully in favor of it.

[Dolphin]

Dolphins being treated inhumanely? Well of course. I think it would be quite traumatising to the poor animals if we did treat them like humans. The poor things would have to vote, contribute taxes (how are they going to make money? Who will hire a dolphin?) obey international laws (they'd have to get a visa to swim into another countries terrirorial waters) and so on.

Dolphins being treated inhumanely is a GOOD thing. I am fully in favor of it.

But as the number of tourists demanding time with the animals continues to swell, so does the business of capturing them, sometimes under what activists consider deplorable conditions.
…
At places like Parque Nizuc, tourists pay more than $100 each for a chance to pet, kiss or even be propelled through the water by dolphins.
It seems to me that dolphins are in high demand in the entertainment industry. If dolphins were given the freedom to work they could pay taxes which could contribute to the economy. Not only that but they wouldn’t have to be treated inhumanely, because working there would be their choice.

Voting would be a good thing because they can make sure that all dolphins could have the freedom to pay taxes and help the economy.

I am sure if we treated them humanely, they wouldn't want to work for anyone else.

And if they didn’t want to be traumatized they don’t have to work.

[ApeTheDog]

True, but there are many more dolphins than there are openings in the entertainment industry. It only takes four or five dolphins doing a few shows a day to entertain thousands of people. There are not enough jobs to tide all the dolphins over.

Where would the dolphins put their money? They have no pockets to put their wallet in. And I'm not sure waterproof wallets exist yet either. And they cannot open a bank account.

I'm sorry, but dolphins being treated humanely would only result in them becoming the outcasts of society - slaves to a world that does not, and cannot, accomodate them. They are better off living in a parallel world, where only their own rules apply, and they are not forced to live according to ours.

[philonightmare]

And if they didn’t want to be traumatized they don’t have to work.
What about dolphins that WANT to be tramatized? Will you deny them their rights?

[Dolphin]

True, but there are many more dolphins than there are openings in the entertainment industry. It only takes four or five dolphins doing a few shows a day to entertain thousands of people. There are not enough jobs to tide all the dolphins over.

Where would the dolphins put their money? They have no pockets to put their wallet in. And I'm not sure waterproof wallets exist yet either. And they cannot open a bank account.

I'm sorry, but dolphins being treated humanely would only result in them becoming the outcasts of society - slaves to a world that does not, and cannot, accomodate them. They are better off living in a parallel world, where only their own rules apply, and they are not forced to live according to ours. The military also as a high demand for dolphins. Even right now they are having trouble recruiting new soldiers. For those dolphins that can’t join the entertainment industry they can join the military.

A special account could be set up for each dolphin. In which dolphins can buy things using wages earned, for example tasty fish. They could also hire a human to translate for them, buy things for them, manage their accounts and run other errands. This would create jobs for humans as well.

With the ability to vote they can change our rules to accommodate them.

[Dolphin]

What about dolphins that WANT to be tramatized? Will you deny them their rights? No, if they understand that they will be tramatized then they wave those rights by accepting any work that puts them in that position.

[philonightmare]

Got the point- its all subjective. Animals are used for the benefit of humans. Much like the relationship between a man and his dog. But the problem as I see it is when you train that dog to literally kill someone else.

Nice rhetorical comparison by the way.
It's not ENTIRELY subjective either.

Dolphins are NOT as intelligent as humans. Our mental abilities, intelligence, our adaptability to different situations is much higher. This is fact. Although, you could argue that mentally retarded humans fare worse than a healthy dolphin but a majority of mentally retarded people are only mildly retarded anyway. Your argument would lose here too. All it takes is looking at neurobiology since the brain is the source of an identity coming to fruition anyway. So, would a dolphin or a human be better suited for making an educated decision?

Is there a problem with dogs being trained to attack terrorists before they strike? What if the terrorist is killed in the process of the attack? Would you try the dog for murder since by your logic, he should be given the choice to join the military anyway.

[philonightmare]

No, if they understand that they will be tramatized then they wave those rights by accepting any work that puts them in that position.
What dolphin could possibly sign a human-made contract? They cannot conceptualize to the same degree as a human. Our brains are DIFFERENT.

[ApeTheDog]

The military also as a high demand for dolphins. Even right now they are having trouble recruiting new soldiers. For those dolphins that can’t join the entertainment industry they can join the military.

Come on, that's not enough. They'd only have the option of two jobs? That doesn't constitute a very accomodating work plan. What of the pacifist dolphins who cannot do tricks? Doomed to become outcasts. And for the ones who do enjoy one of those two careers, how are they going to sign their name on a contract? They have no hands. And how are they going to communicate with us? Surely in the military they'll need to understand orders - and if they have any hope of getting to the better positions - the ability to give them as well.


A special account could be set up for each dolphin. In which dolphins can buy things using wages earned, for example tasty fish. They could also hire a human to translate for them, buy things for them, manage their accounts and run other errands. This would create jobs for humans as well.

Sure, in theory this all sounds good. But why would we do this? The human race benefits entirely from not allowing dolphins to make money. The way things are now - dolphins doing tricks for us being only paid with some food and some affection - is the way things are right now, and we all know that a situation that benefits the majority will never be solved by that majority.


With the ability to vote they can change our rules to accommodate them.

Nah. They'd be forced to vote either democrats or liberals anyway. A vote for the dolphin party would constitute a lost vote anyway with the small number of voters who support it.

[Dolphin]

What dolphin could possibly sign a human-made contract? They cannot conceptualize to the same degree as a human. Our brains are DIFFERENT. A dolphin wouldn’t need to sign the document, the dolphin could use special clicks and whistles to indicate agreement.

The communication barrier is a human problem. Humans are the ones unable to understand dolphins.

From: http://library.thinkquest.org/17963/behaviour-int_lan.html



There are two causes for bad communication. Firstly it is the different ways of communicating and secondly the different language. For the communication between people and dolphins, both factors clash. In the first case it is the different communicational methods which cause the clash. Secondly, it is the constant facial expression of dolphins and the incomprehensible sounds that a dolphin produces, of which humans can decipher almost nothing.


Our brains are DIFFERENT. Yes our brains are different, but close enough.



They cannot conceptualize to the same degree as a human.
Not to the same degree but they have a good understanding of the world around them. They may see things from a different perspective but that doesn’t mean the can’t understand the concept of hard work.

[Dolphin]

Come on, that's not enough. They'd only have the option of two jobs? That doesn't constitute a very accomodating work plan. What of the pacifist dolphins who cannot do tricks? Doomed to become outcasts. And for the ones who do enjoy one of those two careers, how are they going to sign their name on a contract? They have no hands. And how are they going to communicate with us? Surely in the military they'll need to understand orders - and if they have any hope of getting to the better positions - the ability to give them as well.
Don’t forget the jobs within the dolphin society itself. Along with dolphin politicians. Also dolphin could be used to carry messages to other people around the world.

From: http://tursiops.org/dolfin/guide/intel.html


Dolphins have the highest encephalization quotient of any non-human animal- twice that of higher primates The Encephalization Quotient is the ratio of brain mass to body mass, and is a better indicator of brain power than brain size alone. In addition the bottlenose dolphin's brain is more convoluted (physically more folded) than that of any other mammal, including humans. Its cerebral cortex, however, is only half as think as a humans, but thicker than a chimp's.
In addition to the physiology of their brains, the dolphins show abilities extremely rare in the animal kingdom. Besides humans, only dolphins have demonstrated the abilities of both vocal and motor mimicry Birds can do vocal mimicry, but not motor. Monkeys are good motor mimics, but are not capable of vocal mimicry.
Dolphins use a wide variety of hunting styles to catch a wide variety of fish and invertebrates. Fish kicking, the technique of hitting with the tail a fish which has turned quickly to avoid capture is a local custom among dolphins and appears to be a learned behavior rather than instinct. One very interesting example involves two captive dolphins intent upon extracting a moray eel from a rocky crevice in their tank. One of the dolphins captured a scorpion fish and, with the fish in its mouth, poked at the eel's rear end with the fish's poisonous spine. The moray fled from its haven only to be captured by the second dolphin stationed at the opposite end of the hole.
In discussing dolphin intelligence, Louis M. Herman, Director of the Kewalo Basin Marine Mammal Laboratory, of the University of Hawaii, feels that a significant point is that "the dolphin is capable of remembering totally arbitrary events of no relevance to its natural world, of no relevance to what's biologically important. And it can report its memory in ways that are totally arbitrary, that are not the natural conventions of the species", in contrast to wasps and bees, which do demonstrate memory, and even communication of this memory (in the case of the bees' nectar dance), but only in very restricted, biologically set ways.
They seem quite capable of understanding humans to me, and they seem to be able to work well in teams and understand each other.



Sure, in theory this all sounds good. But why would we do this? The human race benefits entirely from not allowing dolphins to make money. The way things are now - dolphins doing tricks for us being only paid with some food and some affection - is the way things are right now, and we all know that a situation that benefits the majority will never be solved by that majority.
If we allowed dolphins to make money that will improve the economy which will help everyone. In a capitalist economy the dolphins would be forced to compete with each other forcing them to do better tricks and make us even more entertained.



Nah. They'd be forced to vote either democrats or liberals anyway. A vote for the dolphin party would constitute a lost vote anyway with the small number of voters who support it.
If humans were entertained well enough, some of them might vote for the dolphin party too. Most people don’t even know what they are voting for anyways.

[ApeTheDog]

What could the human society possibly have to offer dolphins that they want?

As far as I know, the following things are the things dolphins derrive pleasure out of:

- playing with other dolphins (dolphins play games, such as pass the string of seaweed)
- mating with other dolphins
- communicating with other dolphins
- eating fish
- being able to go where they want to go, and being free (this is an assumption I make. I do not know for a fact that they prefer to be free over being captured, but I certainly believe it to be true)

All of these things are things they already have - and they are needs that are easier to fulfill without having to deal with such abstractions as money. If anything, through being forced to earn money would be a burden on them that hampers them fulfilling their needs, as they would have far less time to do what they want. Another downside would be that some dolphins would earn more money than others, leading to unhappiness amongst the majority of them due to there being a structural inequality amongst them that was not there before. What possible benefit would a dolphin have from being forced to interact with/in the human world?

[Dolphin]

What could the human society possibly have to offer dolphins that they want?

As far as I know, the following things are the things dolphins derrive pleasure out of:

- playing with other dolphins (dolphins play games, such as pass the string of seaweed)
- mating with other dolphins
- communicating with other dolphins
- eating fish
- being able to go where they want to go, and being free (this is an assumption I make. I do not know for a fact that they prefer to be free over being captured, but I certainly believe it to be true)

All of these things are things they already have - and they are needs that are easier to fulfill without having to deal with such abstractions as money. If anything, through being forced to earn money would be a burden on them that hampers them fulfilling their needs, as they would have far less time to do what they want. Another downside would be that some dolphins would earn more money than others, leading to unhappiness amongst the majority of them due to there being a structural inequality amongst them that was not there before. What possible benefit would a dolphin have from being forced to interact with/in the human world?

From : http://library.thinkquest.org/17963/behaviour-int_lan.html



Many people also suggested that dolphins have a special liking for humans, meaning also that dolphins can get attached to a particular person. There was a dolphin who at first contact with a man constantly swam to him and implied that it wanted to be stroked. Once the man stroked it, he saw tears in its eyes, like it was crying with pleasure.
Just like humans can save other people from drowning, dolphins can do the same as well. There are also recent stories of people-saving dolphins. Is this because they want to be helpful, or is it instinct? People have also seen that they bring mattresses and other dolphins to shore. This innate behaviour makes it understandable that dolphins occasionally save people.
There has been a lot of research on the behaviour of dolphins. It seems that they have a lot in common with humans. If a dolphin is given a mirror to see itself, it pays attention to its looks. If for example, a black circle is stuck to its side, it will look at it with disgust.

It seems that dolphins have a liking to humans. They would probably like to be apart of the human society just to play with us.

[philonightmare]

A dolphin wouldn’t need to sign the document, the dolphin could use special clicks and whistles to indicate agreement.
Is their communication consistent within all of their communities? What if they invented a new language and forgot to tell us? Oh no, they would continue to be misunderstood!

The communication barrier is a human problem. Humans are the ones unable to understand dolphins.

From: http://library.thinkquest.org/17963/behaviour-int_lan.html
You're hilarious. You just provided me with a source that implies that our brains are more different than what could allow them to qualify as "close enough":
http://library.thinkquest.org/17963/images/01-picture.gif

However, recent research has shown that the amount of braincells found in dolphins is comparatively small. Scientists are coming to the conclusion that the dolphin is probably less intelligent than once thought. Humans have many more braincells and can therefore learn and think a lot quicker.

Not to the same degree but they have a good understanding of the world around them. They may see things from a different perspective but that doesn’t mean the can’t understand the concept of hard work.
Define "hard work" and, give me examples of how their understanding of the world comes close to that of a human's within a more complex realm. So no mother-protecting-young examples, please.

[ApeTheDog]

From : http://library.thinkquest.org/17963/behaviour-int_lan.html

It seems that dolphins have a liking to humans. They would probably like to be apart of the human society just to play with us.

Well, yes, they have a liking to humans. So do we with chimps. Yet do we go live amongst them (the occasional Jane Fossey notwithstanding)

You assume much. I mean, the same mechanism would also have to work the other way around, wouldn't it? Yet, where are the humans who go out and emigrate to dolphin society?

And if we don't do it, why should we assume they would want to?

Remember, there is a difference between playing/swimming with dolphins, and completely merging your species with them.

[Dolphin]

Is their communication consistent within all of their communities? What if they invented a new language and forgot to tell us? Oh no, they would continue to be misunderstood!
No their language isn’t consistent which is why it is further required for them to have interpreters within their own communities. So by incorporating dolphins into human society we are helping them build stronger connections in between their own communities.



You're hilarious. You just provided me with a source that implies that our brains are more different than what could allow them to qualify as "close enough":
They may have fewer brain cells because in the wild they don’t need that many. That doesn’t mean they cannot gain more brain cells through learning. Their brains are larger than humans which may also mean they have more room to fit new brain cells and a higher capacity for learning and thinking. The only problem right now is that they are not being challenged enough.

This also raises the possibility of educating dolphins. In return for providing free education for them they could provide us with an education into their society.



Define "hard work" and, give me examples of how their understanding of the world comes close to that of a human's within a more complex realm. So no mother-protecting-young examples, please.
Hard work is subjective, but for me it means- physical or mental effort directed towards reaching an honest goal. Usually the goal is money. They should be able to understand that by doing their job they will get rewarded. For example if their job was to entertain they should know that if they worked hard at entertaining they will get money. They are smart enough to know that their money can be later used for other things that they might want or need.

Their understanding of the outside world is not the same as ours. That doesn’t mean it is not “good” enough though. They have a different perception on the world as we do but that doesn’t mean their perception is wrong.

[Dolphin]

Well, yes, they have a liking to humans. So do we with chimps. Yet do we go live amongst them (the occasional Jane Fossey notwithstanding)

You assume much. I mean, the same mechanism would also have to work the other way around, wouldn't it? Yet, where are the humans who go out and emigrate to dolphin society?

And if we don't do it, why should we assume they would want to?

Remember, there is a difference between playing/swimming with dolphins, and completely merging your species with them. You raise an interesting point. We would never be able to fully integrate our societies due to simple biology. They have to live in the water and we have to live on land.

So we cannot fully combine our two societies. We can still share our societies some of the time which could very much benefit both societies in the long run.

[ApeTheDog]

You have convinced me. Partially with your good arguments, but mostly because it would be a whole lot of fun to see this happening.

Let there be dolphins!

[eyebyte_atWork]

It's not ENTIRELY subjective either.

Dolphins are NOT as intelligent as humans. Our mental abilities, intelligence, our adaptability to different situations is much higher. This is fact. Although, you could argue that mentally retarded humans fare worse than a healthy dolphin but a majority of mentally retarded people are only mildly retarded anyway. Your argument would lose here too. All it takes is looking at neurobiology since the brain is the source of an identity coming to fruition anyway. So, would a dolphin or a human be better suited for making an educated decision?



I don;t think its subjective as it is differently defined. People, humans, are more intelligent and smarter in many ways - but not all - dolphins are smarter in some ways. They have higher critical thinking skills in a very specific arena - one where people rarely have to deal. People - have invented complex langauge, tools and planning for the future (note - that as far as anyone can tell neanderthals weren't very good at planning for the future just like chimps). Given that - it is quite possible that dolphins are smarter - in a slim area or range of intelligence - but not in the arena humans have come to value. Thats my two cents - and in closing - The truth of the matter is anyone's guess.

[philonightmare]

No their language isn’t consistent which is why it is further required for them to have interpreters within their own communities. So by incorporating dolphins into human society we are helping them build stronger connections in between their own communities.
You make it too easy to argue with you. This really belongs in the "Playground" :P

They may have fewer brain cells because in the wild they don’t need that many. That doesn’t mean they cannot gain more brain cells through learning. Their brains are larger than humans which may also mean they have more room to fit new brain cells and a higher capacity for learning and thinking. The only problem right now is that they are not being challenged enough.
Do you know anything about genetics? Anything about what differentiates one species from another?

This also raises the possibility of educating dolphins. In return for providing free education for them they could provide us with an education into their society.
Fuck that. They need to pay taxes. I'm not paying for their edumacation.

Hard work is subjective, but for me it means- physical or mental effort directed towards reaching an honest goal. Usually the goal is money. They should be able to understand that by doing their job they will get rewarded. For example if their job was to entertain they should know that if they worked hard at entertaining they will get money. They are smart enough to know that their money can be later used for other things that they might want or need.
why would a dolphin feel the need to earn money? What sort of incentive is that for an animal that gains all it needs from it's native environment and seeks reinforcement from there rather than from whatever means a human comes up with? I don't think they need SUVs, for example.

Their understanding of the outside world is not the same as ours. That doesn’t mean it is not “good” enough though. They have a different perception on the world as we do but that doesn’t mean their perception is wrong.
I agree with you that their perceptions are different. It is not the same as ours. Wrong? hmm. edit: I change my mind about something :P

[kuranes]

I've always been fascinated by dolphins. I admit the "smile" gets to me. I wonder if it is only the bottlenose that gets all the attention about great intelligence?
It is a natural that they would do well at entertaining and especially well in a new form of "hydrotherapy" where they cheer up kids and handicapped adults with mental or physical diseases/problems. It is sadly only natural then that someone finally thought about brokering them. Too bad for the dolphins, since the open seas aren't regulated and US laws won't stop activities that go on elsewhere.

As far as dolphins rescuing humans in distress, this has been reported many times. Someone joked that when the dolphins DON'T choose to rescue you when you're drowning, or when they themselves HELP to drown you, it would NOT be reported. So we only get the good reports. Until Hypnos' comment, I had never heard of dolphin hostility, but perhaps its only natural, if they are so intelligent, in light of this thread's original direction. I HAD heard that people who encourage their sexual proclivities get more than they bargained for.

I've mentioned John Lilly's ( Lily? ) book on communication with dolphins before.

Someone once speculated in Science Fiction that dolphins are what's become of pre-cataclysm ancient humans that gravitated slowly towards living more and more in the sea.

The military will use them, if they think it will save lives, regardless of our opinions.

I've always wanted to swim in a pool with a dolphin myself. See if I could get a water volleyball game going with them, or something.

If they are seen as providing valuable services perhaps the military will stop deafening them with loud underwater noises that may drive both dolphins and whales up on beaches.

I volunteer for being the first "translator trainee".

Funny, the idea of them having submersible money, in light of the info on the one dolphin hoarding its "litter" ( which at first I thought was referring to a bunch of infants! ) so cleverly. Are we the snake here, offering Eve her first bite of the apple? Next we'll find something to be the equivalent of booze for them. Got to reclaim that submersible money we paid them, you know. "First you need to pay back the cost of capturing and transporting you, Flip! THEN we'll talk about letting you keep your money. You can start to bail yourself out of the hole by helping us catch other dolphins. Heh heh." Snidely Whiplash.

[mgb]

I prefering eating dolphins with a little bit of tuna.

[booyalab]

I just realized something. Why is it ok to accidentally kill bunnies with wheat and soy bean combines but not ok to accidentally kill dolphins when fishing for tuna.

[attila_the_hunny]

I just realized something. Why is it ok to accidentally kill bunnies with wheat and soy bean combines but not ok to accidentally kill dolphins when fishing for tuna.

Not to mention, little bunnies are so much cuter. Poor Toby. (http://savetoby.com/)

[kuranes]

I just realized something. Why is it ok to accidentally kill bunnies with wheat and soy bean combines but not ok to accidentally kill dolphins when fishing for tuna.

Technically it isn't. People look upon the dolphin as being a more sophisticated creature, and so see it as being more of a waste, I suppose. Without knowing all the details, I'm also guessing that it seems more avoidable to spare dolphins vs. rabbits who may be killed running out in front of cars etc.

[Dolphin]

You make it too easy to argue with you. This really belongs in the "Playground" :P

Do you know anything about genetics? Anything about what differentiates one species from another?

Fuck that. They need to pay taxes. I'm not paying for their edumacation.

why would a dolphin feel the need to earn money? What sort of incentive is that for an animal that gains all it needs from it's native environment and seeks reinforcement from there rather than from whatever means a human comes up with? I don't think they need SUVs, for example.

I agree with you that their perceptions are different. It is not the same as ours. Wrong? hmm. edit: I change my mind about something :P

You make it too easy to argue with you. This really belongs in the "Playground"
I meant that their language isn’t consistent within different pods and different types of dolphins. It is still close enough for them to understand each other. Like a person with a California accent talking to a person with a New York accent. Basically the same kind of language just slight differences.

Was there anything specific that you found to be too agreeing? Do you think it is wrong of me to understand your point of view and acknowledge it?



Do you know anything about genetics? Anything about what differentiates one species from another?
My knowledge on the genetics is limited. Are you saying that humans are genetically superior to dolphins?

If you talking about the different kinds of dolphins then how is that any different than asking about the differences between whites and blacks? If that is indeed the case then I refer you to here: http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=6848 as well as here: http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=6985 While the threads talk about intelligence, they are also talking about cultural differences as well as genetic differences.




Fuck that. They need to pay taxes. I'm not paying for their edumacation.
So you agree that they should pay taxes. Employers often higher a well educated person over an uneducated person. They are many studies that indicate that the more educated someone is the more they are paid. The more that dolphins are paid the more taxes they pay. I believe that in the long run it will benefit society. What’s a few years of free education compared to more years of paying taxes?

If it wasn’t worth it then why do we even bother offering free education to our children?



why would a dolphin feel the need to earn money? What sort of incentive is that for an animal that gains all it needs from it's native environment and seeks reinforcement from there rather than from whatever means a human comes up with? I don't think they need SUVs, for example.
They would earn money to buy things that can help themselves be entertained, for example a beach ball. Why do humans buy TV’s? Why don’t we all live in farming communities and live off the land ourselves? If given the choice don’t you think they would choose a more convenient life style? Humans don’t need SUVs either but we still buy them.



I agree with you that their perceptions are different. It is not the same as ours. Wrong? hmm. edit: I change my mind about something
Thank you for your understanding and acceptance of that. I do not understand the last part of your statement. I never said that I my self was intelligent enough to understand you all of the time.

[Dolphin]

It is a natural that they would do well at entertaining and especially well in a new form of "hydrotherapy" where they cheer up kids and handicapped adults with mental or physical diseases/problems.
Yet another reason for humans to treat dolphins humanely.



As far as dolphins rescuing humans in distress, this has been reported many times. Someone joked that when the dolphins DON'T choose to rescue you when you're drowning, or when they themselves HELP to drown you, it would NOT be reported. So we only get the good reports. Until Hypnos' comment, I had never heard of dolphin hostility, but perhaps its only natural, if they are so intelligent, in light of this thread's original direction. I HAD heard that people who encourage their sexual proclivities get more than they brgained for.
Dolphins seem to naturally like humans. Why would a dolphin try to drown a human unless that human was trying to harm them?



Someone once speculated in Science Fiction that dolphins are what's become of pre-cataclysm ancient humans that gravitated slowly towards living more and more in the sea.
They seem to be evolving into a more land mammal to me, but that is entirely my opinion.



The military will use them, if they think it will save lives, regardless of our opinions.
True, which is why its wrong.



I've always wanted to swim in a pool with a dolphin myself. See if I could get a water volleyball game going with them, or something.
Dolphins can even have their own sport. Which opens up a whole new set of job opportunities, not to mention dolphin-dolphin competitions as well as dolphin-human competitions. That would be really to cool to watch on TV as well as play. People would probably pay good money to see that.



If they are seen as providing valuable services perhaps the military will stop deafening them with loud underwater noises that may drive both dolphins and whales up on beaches.
Another example of inhumane and inconsiderate treatment.



Funny, the idea of them having submersible money, in light of the info on the one dolphin hoarding its "litter" ( which at first I thought was referring to a bunch of infants! ) so cleverly. Are we the snake here, offering Eve her first bite of the apple? Next we'll find something to be the equivalent of booze for them. Got to reclaim that submersible money we paid them, you know. "First you need to pay back the cost of capturing and transporting you, Flip! THEN we'll talk about letting you keep your money. You can start to bail yourself out of the hole by helping us catch other dolphins. Heh heh." Snidely Whiplash.
I agree, in the beginning dolphins will probably be treated more as slaves, but as their society grows and adapts to our own ( as we adapt to them ) the rewards will out weigh the initial costs. It would help if we gave them voting rights as well.

[Dolphin]

I prefering eating dolphins with a little bit of tuna.
LOL what do you think of kittens?

[Dolphin]

I just realized something. Why is it ok to accidentally kill bunnies with wheat and soy bean combines but not ok to accidentally kill dolphins when fishing for tuna. The key word there is accidently. We should be more careful. Maybe if you get into a car accident and its your fault you should go back to traffic school.

[mgb]

LOL what do you think of kittens?

I think kittens probably like eating dolphin too.