Decision day

[joecancer]

So I've been talking about not liking the law for some time now on this board, especially with people like Rajah. Well, I might be gone. I sent my resume to a legal newspaper, and they're interested in me. The only thing is, they pay in the high 30s (they haven't made an offer yet), while my law firm job pays 48K. I'm thinking about jumping at it. The hours would be better (40 compared to about 60 per week)and I might have time to make money on the side doing some contract lawyering or freelance writing.
The only drawbacks are: my wife is not in favor of it. And, I have to start paying back loans soon. She'san ISFJ, and wanted to buy a house, and was waiting for me to finish law school to start a family and settle down. She sees this as something that will derail her dreams, since those things might be harder to do with less money (she works also). While 35-38K isn't bad, it's not very much for a law graduate. But, I really believe in my writing abilities and think I have a good shot to go places with it. I have no real desire to be a lawyer. Every day I'm in the offie is another day wasted. My wife thinks I'm leaving the law too soon without giving it a fair shot (I get sworn into the bar in two weeks, so I'm still not a lawyer yet). She thinks if I make the move, law school will have been a waste. I don't agree with her, though it's hard to argue against her when the writing position doesn't require a law degree. I just want to get my foot in the door somewhere as a writer, and let my natural talents shine.
I guess it all comes down to: how much would you sacrfice to do what you really want to do? Anyone ever been in a similar situation? Any advice?

[Nighthawk]

I have an ISFJ wife, so I can relate. Most of our two incomes currently go into renovating the house. I still ... despite all my MBTI interest ... cannot fathom why so much money has to be poured into a house to make it "perfect." Hell, it's warm and the roof doesn't leak ... and it has internet + cable ... what more do you need? But I digress.

I was in a similar situation with respect to jumping to a completely different career that did not pay as well. The only difference was that I had been forced out of my first career (military) and did not have much choice about the change. I did end up doing something that I enjoy more ... even though I bitch about it on INTPC a lot, it is still light years ahead of what the military offered.

A cut in pay to do something you love is usually a bitter pill to swallow. I managed to survive when I did it all those years ago and even ended up eventually making more than I did in the military ... although that took a about 5-6 years to accomplish. From my experience however, I tend to sabotage myself when I am working somewhere (or doing something) I do not like. It is only a matter of time before I do something that forces me out ... possibly not at a time of my choosing. If you have the same inclination, I'd factor that into the equation.

One more thing to consider is, how much of a pay jump can you expect when you join the bar? If it is significantly higher, can you look into some version of law that might appeal more to you ... or perhaps writing as a sideline? I know it's not a perfect solution ... but I have yet to find many of those in life. While money cannot buy happiness, it can make your misery a lot more bearable.

I'm stuck in somewhat the same situation right now, as the software field has lost its luster for me. I've been doing it for over 10 years now. I want to jump, but I know it will be a huge pay cut ... so, here I remain, on the fence.

[MacGuffin]

I got some things to say on this, but I have to go home now - this is a placeholder.

[kuranes]

See the "Psychic Income" thread . . . . .

[Hustler]

You know, technically, the writing job pays better. 35k for 40 hours a week comes to about $17.50/hour while 48k for 60 hours a week comes to about $16/hour. I would take that writing job and put that extra 20 hours per week to good use. Whatever you do, don't get sucked into doing something you don't want to do for 60 hours a week. That sounds like pure hell.

[Madrigal]

Oh God, now is your opportunity. Don't let your wife make you hate her forever by tying you to her own conception of what it means to be happy. You may have different views on this. Let the shit hit the fan later on. What good is a house and family if you aren't doing what you really want? To have a pretty prison cell? Or maybe children that will grow up to see you as a man that never had the balls to stand up to his wife and follow his own dreams?

You can't possibly regret something like this, if only because you need to prove to yourself whether it's really your thing. That certainty alone is invaluable.

[Nighthawk]

Oh God, now is your opportunity. Don't let your wife make you hate her forever by tying you to her own conception of what it means to be happy. You may have different views on this. Let the shit hit the fan later on. What good is a house and family if you aren't doing what you really want? To have a pretty prison cell? Or maybe children that will grow up to see you as a man that never had the balls to stand up to his wife and follow his own dreams?

You can't possibly regret something like this, if only because you need to prove to yourself whether it's really your thing. That certainty alone is invaluable.
Madrigal makes a good point about possible resentment towards your wife if you feel that she prevented you from achieving your dream. Perhaps if you explain it to her in those terms. Since you will still be earning money, it's not like you're leaving your family high and dry. I know I am starting to harbor some resentment towards my wife because she has a flexible work schedule ... was in school for years ... and can hop around to different jobs ... because I take up all the stability slack. It's not a good feeling, nor does it make for an ideal relationship.

Also consider however, that this resentment could work the other way ... so be sure you keep communication open so that she does not resent you for interferring with her dream.

[joecancer]

well, we just had a talk, and it started off well. Then the shit hit the fan. Nighthawk, you hit it on the head. She resents me. She's crying, and asking me why I get to do what I want, but she gets nothing she wants. She says she wants some concessions. I ask what those "concessions" are. She says they include a house, a car, and a family. I explain that my choice doesn't preclude those things, but she sees it as me not considering her goals. She apparently has a five year vision that I've completely thrown out of whack by considering this career change. I explain to her that, if I'll be making less, it doesn't make sense to promise to buy her things like cars and houses. And I say that nobody should decide to have kids as a "concession." But she sees it as me being selfish. I guess I am being selfish to an extent. But isn't this the whole problem with relationships, in general? How do you decide how to balance your needs with the needs of your partner when they are in total conflict? I guess it comes down to: would I rather be bitter at her, or have her be bitter at me? I don't know the answer.

[Madrigal]

well, we just had a talk, and it started off well. Then the shit hit the fan. Nighthawk, you hit it on the head. She resents me. She's crying, and asking me why I get to do what I want, but she gets nothing she wants. She says she wants some concessions. I ask what those "concessions" are. She says they include a house, a car, and a family. I explain that my choice doesn't preclude those things, but she sees it as me not considering her goals. She apparently has a five year vision that I've completely thrown out of whack by considering this career change. I explain to her that, if I'll be making less, it doesn't make sense to promise to buy her things like cars and houses. And I say that nobody should decide to have kids as a "concession." But she sees it as me being selfish. I guess I am being selfish to an extent. But isn't this the whole problem with relationships, in general? How do you decide how to balance your needs with the needs of your partner when they are in total conflict? I guess it comes down to: would I rather be bitter at her, or have her be bitter at me? I don't know the answer.

Don't give in now!!! That is just brutal, what kind of 'concession' is sticking to a job you hate and having children you don't want to have yet? That sounds a bit more like slavery to me. If you are going to be true to yourself, you may as well contemplate whether you and your wife truly have irreconcilable differences. I think she's being selfish about this. Incredibly selfish.

[Nighthawk]

well, we just had a talk, and it started off well. Then the shit hit the fan. Nighthawk, you hit it on the head. She resents me. She's crying, and asking me why I get to do what I want, but she gets nothing she wants. She says she wants some concessions. I ask what those "concessions" are. She says they include a house, a car, and a family. I explain that my choice doesn't preclude those things, but she sees it as me not considering her goals. She apparently has a five year vision that I've completely thrown out of whack by considering this career change. I explain to her that, if I'll be making less, it doesn't make sense to promise to buy her things like cars and houses. And I say that nobody should decide to have kids as a "concession." But she sees it as me being selfish. I guess I am being selfish to an extent. But isn't this the whole problem with relationships, in general? How do you decide how to balance your needs with the needs of your partner when they are in total conflict? I guess it comes down to: would I rather be bitter at her, or have her be bitter at me? I don't know the answer.Wow ... that is rough. Perhaps she just needed to get it all out. SJs can be "funny" with their life plans ... often involving houses and cars. The F's can feel them very deeply. I know my ISFJ will hold it in for a long time and then blow up when I ask her about it ... or do something that finally brings it all out. She currently has material plan for where we should be in life. This includes 1) A completely remodeled house, 2) A Lexus or Mercedes for her, 3) A Hummer for me and 4) heavily subsidizing the kids (particularly her daughter) and her family. I want none of those things. Oh yeah ... and they happen to cost a shitload of money. Oh yeah ... and I happen to have earned the lion's share of it over the past decade. I deeply resent working my ass off for things I don't want or need. Needless to say, we've gone round and round about this a lot. The house is getting remodeled and she has a Toyota Highlander in the driveway. I still drive my old truck. It's all I want. I won't budge on numbers 3 and 4.

Marriage can be a bitch even during the best of times. Despite many people painting it as hearts and flowers, it is often a power struggle. However, sometimes losing will gain you more than winning. I'm not saying you should back off in this case ... but do weigh your options and possible repercussions carefully. How much do you love your wife and how much are you willing to put up with? If you decide that you do not want to put up with being a lawyer, then explain that to her as many times as you can ... gently and non-confrontationally. I agree with Hustler that spending time in a job you hate is hell on earth. That kind of resentment can lead to break up. Every day that you go in to work reminds you of something you were "forced" to do ... as does every hour spent at some task there. If there are too many of your non-negotiables being broken, then eventually you may have to re-examine whether you want that relationship. I hope it does not come to that point for you.

One more thing that you have going for you at present, is that you are not yet addicted to a big paycheck. You'd be surprise at how that narrows your options ... when you would think it does exactly the opposite. A big paycheck ties you to your job, for better or worse ... often for worse. You can still jump right now without feeling it as much. Ten years from now ... even five ... that might not be the case ... especially if there are children involved.

[joecancer]

I'm starting to think I made a mistake in marrying an SJ. Well, not starting to think that, but thinking it more and more. I need to keep reminding myself there are benefits to having an SJ mate. But our main priorities are totally opposite, which can make major decisions pretty difficult. If you add in her feeling, which makes her completely irrational during heated arguments, and it can be pure hell.
That being said, she's calmed down a bit, and I think I might take the job (if they offer me the figure she's ok with - 38k).
Thanks for the advice guys

[Nighthawk]

I'm starting to think I made a mistake in marrying an SJ. Well, not starting to think that, but thinking it more and more. I need to keep reminding myself there are benefits to having an SJ mate.
Heh. I wonder that from time to time as well. Fortunately (?), I've also been married to an SP and an NF ... so I can draw some comparisons. Neither were any better for me ... probably much worse ... the SP for sure.

[joecancer]

yeah, there's probably no such thing as an easy marriage. we get along well for the most part. but when it blows up, it really blows up.

actually, it just blew up again, right after it seemed to be calming down for good. I tried to get her to go below the 38K figure (in case they can't offer that much), and she wouldn't budge. My reasoning was that she failed to take into account the hours I would have free to pursue other financial opportunities. That, and the economic value of being more at peace with my chosen career, and having a feeling that I'm using my true talents instead of forcing myself to be someone I'm not. That's worth something, right? All of these rational arguments pushed her over the edge, and now we're fighting again. She keeps saying that she can't believe I "want" to make 35K, as if 35K is something I aspire to make. Maybe I was trying to push it a little to far, but I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

Now she's yelling about how the house is a mess.

[Rajah]

Wow.. go away for 2 days and find myself mentioned in a thread!

Anyway, you know what I'm going to say. Do what makes you happy. I hardly think having $10K more a year in salary is worth working (*calculating*) 960 extra hours! Tell your wife those extra 960 hours only work out to over $10 per hour, whereas you could easily make $60 per hour starting out doing freelance. So, you need to do 160 hours of freelance work per year, or 13.3 hours monthly, or 3.3 measly hours of freelance work weekly.

Also, is it worth being unhappy just for $10K? I have no doubt that if you're doing what you love, and you're doing it well, and you're happy... the opportunities will come.

I'd imagine what's harder for your wife to deal with is losing her husband, the lawyer. There is a certain cachet to being a lawyer, and I'm sure the transition will be difficult not only on you, but on her, psychologically. If that's the root of the problem, you can work it out.

[Nighthawk]

yeah, there's probably no such thing as an easy marriage. we get along well for the most part. but when it blows up, it really blows up.

actually, it just blew up again, right after it seemed to be calming down for good. I tried to get her to go below the 38K figure (in case they can't offer that much), and she wouldn't budge. My reasoning was that she failed to take into account the hours I would have free to pursue other financial opportunities. That, and the economic value of being more at peace with my chosen career, and having a feeling that I'm using my true talents instead of forcing myself to be someone I'm not. That's worth something, right? All of these rational arguments pushed her over the edge, and now we're fighting again. She keeps saying that she can't believe I "want" to make 35K, as if 35K is something I aspire to make. Maybe I was trying to push it a little to far, but I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

Now she's yelling about how the house is a mess.
Yeah ... you're probably both on the edge of your concessions right now.

Mine is also complaining that the house is a mess. They are so sensitive about that. Well ... we are renovating ... duh ... of course it's going to be a mess. The fact that I have food poisoning and don't feel like helping clean up doesn't make matters any better.

[Rajah]

*scrolls up*

I see Hustler did the math, and a hell of a lot more admirably than I did. If you want a guide to gettting started in freelance writing, I recommend Peter Bowerman's The Well-Fed Writer: Financial Self-Sufficiency as a Freelance Writer in Six Months or Less. It's a good practical guide.

[MacGuffin]

*sigh*
Okay, I am going to ignore the post about the fight and focus on the situation.

Background: I am INTP, law degree, ISTJ wife, and do not have the typical attorney job.

First off, Hustler make a very good point. The firm job is not paying more per hour than the writing job. If you can use the 20 hours to make more money or persue some other avenue of interest, I don't see why you should take the law firm job.

But I am sure your wife just sees the total amount and is not thinking about hours worked and quality of life. Not to malign all SJs, but they tend to focus on appearances. I just had a mini-fight with my ISTJ wife about my blog, she was concerned about what I wrote, I thought it was so funny she got worked up about it. I got rid of it just cause it was not worth the hassle. Laughed my ass off for a good ten minutes though. But I was once again reminded of how different our mindsets can be.

If you take the law firm job and hate it one of two paths are open to you:

1) you buy that house, car, etc. Now you are locked into your salary and have to keep that law firm job and end up hating life.

2) you don't buy that stuff right away, but save enough to make the transition to another job/career less painful.

I would explore the alternative that you take the law firm job and like it, but since you already have figured out what I, Rajah, crule, and other INTP lawyers on this board have figured out... so that is unlikely.

You must also realize that taking the writing job is no guarantee to happiness either. We seem to tire of what we do after a time no matter what it is.

But if you have no desire to do something, avoid option 1 that I discussed above at all costs.

I'll post more about your follow concerning the fight tomorrow, but now I need to get to bed. EDIT: Rajah and Nighthawk seem to be covering that angle, listen to them!

[Nighthawk]

I just had a mini-fight with my ISTJ wife about my blog, she was concerned about what I wrote, I thought it was so funny she got worked up about it.
Amazing ... mine also gets bent out of shape over what I write on the internet. Quite alike.



1) you buy that house, car, etc. Now you are locked into your salary and have to keep that law firm job and end up hating life.

2) you don't buy that stuff right away, but save enough to make the transition to another job/career less painful.Exactly. A high salary for a job you hate can be a miserable set of golden handcuffs. Do not become addicted to the money before you can get out. If you want to jump, it is better to jump before there is too great a difference in money.

[joecancer]

wow. some great points. i really appreciate it everyone.
I just realized that I decided to get married and decided to go to law school in the same month in 2002. I guess I was having a very J month that month.
Somehow, all throughout law school I've known this day was coming. I just didn't know it could come this soon, and 10 days before getting sworn in.
I think I realize the writing job is no guarantee of happiness (in fact my wife has pointed this out a million times to remind me). But I think it offers a certain freedom to create that I haven't found in the practice of law.

[Rajah]

I am giving up a six-figure salary, and will probably end up in a job making somewhere around $30-$40K. I'm hardly bragging about my most recent salary, as shown by my current salary of $0. You know what lawyers make; it's in NALP. Anyway, I will be a hell of a lot happier, even making about 1/3 of what I used to. You can have a very comfortable life on $30-$40K. Plus, as you already figured out, it's possible to supplement the income with freelancing.

Your wife just needs to see that you're doing this not just for yourself, but for her too.

[nihilist]

Not to criticize in what would appear to be a moment of frustration, but how do NTs get stuck with materialistic SJs, SPs, or really anyone with conflicting personalities? Our intuitive analytical ability lets us see right through someone's goals and motivations in life. It's also interesting is that it's often the INTP males who pair up with SX females, not vice versa. Perhaps, this is because of the paradoxical nature of the modern man on gender equality, where in the case of an INTP, the mind attempts to sustain superiority.

[Serotonin]

Not to criticize in what would appear to be a moment of frustration, but how do NTs get stuck with materialistic SJs, SPs, or really anyone with conflicting personalities?

Probably because of the sheer majority of SPs and SJs in society compared with N-types. In a huge majority of S-types, there are bound to be some (mostly SJs) who are drawn to academia, white-collar professional jobs which require big-picture thinking. Many SJs are extremely intelligent and have great analytical ability, and I'm guessing that's what attracts INTPs to them. It's just that when the crunch comes, their natural preference is for tradition, safety and security.

JoeC, it seems that the selfishness you have won't affect your wife (except in terms of what your wife wants) as much as you bowing to your wife's selfishness. If you go ahead and take this writing job, the marital problems you have may be more temporary than the ones you have in the future if you keep your job as a lawyer.

[Hustler]

Not to criticize in what would appear to be a moment of frustration, but how do NTs get stuck with materialistic SJs, SPs, or really anyone with conflicting personalities? Our intuitive analytical ability lets us see right through someone's goals and motivations in life. It's also interesting is that it's often the INTP males who pair up with SX females, not vice versa. Perhaps, this is because of the paradoxical nature of the modern man on gender equality, where in the case of an INTP, the mind attempts to sustain superiority.

SJs aren't so bad as long as they are submissive. They will do lots of stuff for you, especially the ISFJs or ESFJs.

[garak]

And how are SPs "conflicting personalities" with us?

[Madrigal]

Despite the fact that the mutual and long-term benefits of taking up this writing job can probably be explained to your wife in a way that she can understand, I see a much bigger problem, and that is the fact that she is putting a price on your happiness. Saying she won't go below 38k... I'm sorry, but am I the only one that has trouble picturing that kind of discussion?

Here you are attempting to make a career change and she's trying to have such an important decision depend on a few thousand dollars. I would take it as a warning sign for future years. I know that everyone is giving you advice on how to reconcile with her and find a win-win situation, but I think that this entire situation is just twisted. Can you imagine, years from now, that one day she, as your wife, may have to make some important decisions for you? Seriously, you never know what can happen. You would want to spend your life with someone who's reasoning you can rely on - I'd suppose that's one of the most important aspects of a marriage.

As an INTP, I know what it's like to identify a problem and not do anything about it. In my experience, I have been able to understand certain relationship problems in all of their complexity (at least I would invest a lot of thought into them), but when it came to making decisions - especially important ones - tomorrow always seemed like a better day. We can keep doing this for years. In our minds, everything can change, but it's never the right moment to face it. Of course, this attitude is reflected in many aspects of our lives. Some things don't seem to be right, but we just make concession after concession over the years, and one day we wake up and we realize we've signed a mortgage. Everyone believes in it's authenticity except ourselves.

Lucky for you it's not too late yet.

[PlayerOfGames]

Back to the topic at hand - I don't think anyone who is in a real relationship with you has any right to push you to do anything you don't like doing, so that *they*, not you, will be more happy & on track with their five year plan.

I think what many people miss, but is pressingly felt by INTPs, is that a day that is gone is gone. Every day you spend doing something you don't want to do is a day you never get back. When it's done it's done. You are being asked to sign away a part of a very precious commodity, your life.

I've only ever gone out with one girl who wanted to tell me what I should do, who I should be (and thought that the amount of prestige associated with what you did defined your worth as a person) - I told her very simply "I'm going to do what makes me happy, and I expect you to do what makes you happy." Well, that was the end of that X) Of course, I was certainly not married, so it's a different circumstance.

Your goal in life can only be to live a life that makes you happy. And I think that the delusion of the majority that this life can be attained by sacrificing many years of it so that eventually you'll have a good consumer lifestyle is tragically wrong, and many people only realise that when it's too late.
Live the life you want every day. If you're capable, and it seems you are, and you keep your eyes open, the money can be organized.

My 2C.

[joecancer]

a couple of funny things about this:
1) I just started reading a book called Indecision, which is about a guy (I believe an INTP) who has trouble making decisions. I'm starting to have trouble distinguishing my life from the character in the book. (which I suppose is true to some extent whenever you get really into a book).
2) my firm just threw me a pizza party last week for passing the bar exam, and everybody always asks me when I'll finally get admitted to the bar so I can be a "real" lawyer and they can give me some of their work to do.

[Rajah]

2) my firm just threw me a pizza party last week for passing the bar exam, and everybody always asks me when I'll finally get admitted to the bar so I can be a "real" lawyer and they can give me some of their work to do.My firm sent around an e-mail. The two other bar-passing associates and I went out and had a cocktail. That was the extent of my bar-related festivities. I'd be thrilled about pizza!

Oh, and they're not kidding about dumping work on you. Senior associates love it when you pass the bar.

[MacGuffin]

Now on to the fight.

I foresaw the whole "resentment" issue coming from your first post. I am actually happy you had the fight now about it instead of letting it fester or someone making a bad decision that leads to worse problems.

For her, she had this whole plan laid out. Law school, pass the bar, good paying job, new cars, mortgage, family... all neatly laid out. And to her, there was probably never much reflection that you might not want that plan. After all, isn't this what everyone wants? Why would anyone not want that?

NTs, especially NTPs, have an ability to see other choices. To see the long term effects, good and bad, of our choices. Often we see the possibilites, but fail to communicate them. We begin to assume that others see them as well.

So now you have an SJ with one firmly held path, unaware that others may not want that path vs. an NT seeing so many other paths, unaware that others cannot see those paths too. Classic SJ-NT miscommunication.

I won't lie. Communicating with SJs, even the ones you love can be really hard work. You just have two different world views. It is one of the big problems in NT-SJ relationships.

Others will tell you that INTPs should only be with other NTs - INTPs if you can find them. I am wary of that pairing. Their weaknesses are your weaknesses.

An NT-SJ relationship can work. You can open them up to many things, they can give you a boot in the ass when you need it. Their strengths can compensate for your weaknesses, and vice versa. The trick is to find that balance, so you are not constantly at opposite ends. The key: communication. Believe me, I know, I am struggling with that now.

My wife is ISTJ, and has begun to hate her career. She is in legal marketing and is tired of putting up with the bullshit from attorneys. She makes more money than me, as she is a bright and hard worker, already on her second job while I was still in law school. She has said she resents me some, tired of waiting for when I become the breadwinner. It as if she wants to switch places with me. And listening to her complaints, I see no reason why I would want her role! Way to sell it! But I digress.

Good luck, whatever you and your wife decide.

[MacGuffin]

1) I just started reading a book called Indecision, which is about a guy (I believe an INTP) who has trouble making decisions. I'm starting to have trouble distinguishing my life from the character in the book. (which I suppose is true to some extent whenever you get really into a book).
Oh yeah, I made a thread about that novel back in Sept.: http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=6393

I have not picked it up yet so let me know what you think.

[joecancer]

what kind of law do you practice, mac?
yeah, I think the SJ-NT conflicts are definitely heightened by the fact we're both introverts, which means we rarely communicate what we're thinking (or, in her case, what she's feeling).
I thought the pizza party was nice, but I kind of wished they didn't do it. If I do leave, the timing of it couldn't be more ironic. I guess I would feel bad about leaving after only 2 months on the job, but that's the least of my worries now.

[MacGuffin]

what kind of law do you practice, mac?
yeah, I think the SJ-NT conflicts are definitely heightened by the fact we're both introverts, which means we rarely communicate what we're thinking (or, in her case, what she's feeling).Right now I work as a contractor for the federales doing vaccine litigation.

And yes, the both introvert thing does not help. Mine is a T, so it can even be worse as I am one too. We both avoid showing strong emotions.

[Nighthawk]

Others will tell you that INTPs should only be with other NTs - INTPs if you can find them. I am wary of that pairing. Their weaknesses are your weaknesses.

An NT-SJ relationship can work. You can open them up to many things, they can give you a boot in the ass when you need it. Their strengths can compensate for your weaknesses, and vice versa. The trick is to find that balance, so you are not constantly at opposite ends. The key: communication. Believe me, I know, I am struggling with that now.

This is a tremendous strength that I have found in my relationship with my ISFJ wife. We are diametric opposites and balance each other well. Her logistical and tactical strengths cover my logistical and tactical weaknesses. My strategic and diplomatic strengths cover her strategic and diplomatic weaknesses.

One very precious thing that she gives me is a very stable home life with no drama. Both the NF and SP spouses were huge drama queens. Not saying they are all like that. About the only drama I get here is when the house is disorganized ... which is just background noise to me.

[Nighthawk]

I'm not sure if you mentioned it joecancer ... but is your wife working outside the home? Does she have a career? Just curious with all the mention of money and income dynamics. It seems to put a certain spin on things ... as though she is dependent upon you for a certain lifestyle. Not sure if that is the case, but it seems to be what is coming through between the lines.

What I discovered, as a young adult male 20+ years ago, was that American society and most American women judged me based upon my income and job. To put it unkindly, I was a meal ticket first and foremost. I'm not sure if it is still that way. From what I see of my kids, it seems to have changed somewhat.

At any rate, my first wife was a housewife. She wasn't too greedy, but she did have a saying, "What's mine is mine, and what's your's is mine." My 2nd wife earned minimum wage and was a super-materialistic party girl who put me $40,000 in debt. After those two ... how shall I say it ... mistakes ... I vowed to become the same way and not consider a woman as a partner unless she was more of a professional equal to me. In essence, I adopted the same methodology they had always used on me. I am comfortable with a wife who is my professional equal and I'm glad that I made that choice in life.

Note: This is not a bash on American women. My experiences comprise a ridiculously small subset of the population and are certainly not valid data from which to form general conclusions. They are just my life experiences that formed my opinions.

[indie]

NTs, especially NTPs, have an ability to see other choices. To see the long term effects, good and bad, of our choices. Often we see the possibilites, but fail to communicate them. We begin to assume that others see them as well.

So true!


So now you have an SJ with one firmly held path, unaware that others may not want that path vs. an NT seeing so many other paths, unaware that others cannot see those paths too. Classic SJ-NT miscommunication.

Indeed. SJs tend to want measure "success" (or whatever) as an excess of external physical characteristics and degrees of fanciness of houses/vehicles/possessions acquired. NTs tend to reject these traditional measures of "success" to focus on the internal intangible characteristics and degrees of understanding.

[joecancer]

My wife does work, and earns 55K per year. She also just graduated with a masters in psychology, which, combined with my law school debt, has us in significant debt right now. But she's not working in psychology, nor does she really want to. She likes her job (in marketing), but she admits that some of her resentment stems from working full time while I was in law school in order to be the main breadwinner (though I did work my butt off during school and worked at a firm part time to make money). She thinks it's my turn now to at least be an equal partner. She's very concerned with everything being as fair as possible.

[joecancer]

So, the interview is tomorrow. We'll see what happens.

[Nighthawk]

My wife does work, and earns 55K per year. She also just graduated with a masters in psychology, which, combined with my law school debt, has us in significant debt right now. But she's not working in psychology, nor does she really want to. She likes her job (in marketing), but she admits that some of her resentment stems from working full time while I was in law school in order to be the main breadwinner (though I did work my butt off during school and worked at a firm part time to make money). She thinks it's my turn now to at least be an equal partner. She's very concerned with everything being as fair as possible.
So you are pretty equally balanced professionally. That does help with the give and take ... from my experience. I'd rather have an equal partner.

You are right. Most SJs I have met are concerned with fairness. I've gotten a few points across to my wife in that context. On the flip side, I've also given in when I've realized I was being unfair.

I hope you find a reasonably non-rocky path to your dream.

[Ivy]

Now she's yelling about how the house is a mess.

Maybe tell her if you take the writing job, you'll have more time to help out around the house? I am halfway serious here, it might make a difference to her. I'm the ISFJ in my marriage, and I can tell you that when he pitches in on the housework it means a LOT to me. He works a lot more hours at his job than I do at mine, so it's only fair that the bulk of keeping the house relatively picked-up and sanitary is my domain, but I am pretty constantly tied to the baby (sometimes literally) whether I'm working or not. So I very much appreciate the help.

[MacGuffin]

My wife does work, and earns 55K per year. She also just graduated with a masters in psychology, which, combined with my law school debt, has us in significant debt right now. But she's not working in psychology, nor does she really want to. She likes her job (in marketing), but she admits that some of her resentment stems from working full time while I was in law school in order to be the main breadwinner (though I did work my butt off during school and worked at a firm part time to make money). She thinks it's my turn now to at least be an equal partner. She's very concerned with everything being as fair as possible.Yeah, career equality can really help.

I get the feeling (apologies to any SJ women like Ivy where this generalization may not fit) that SJ women want their husband/partner to either be their financial equal or be more successful. When the husband is less "equal", this can cause problems. Hence your wife's strong resistence to you taking less than $38k. I think they buy into the gender roles more than other types.

[Ivy]

Yeah, career equality can really help.

I get the feeling (apologies to any SJ women like Ivy where this generalization may not fit) that SJ women want their husband/partner to either be their financial equal or be more successful. When the husband is less "equal", this can cause problems. Hence your wife's strong resistence to you taking less than $38k. I think they buy into the gender roles more than other types.

I appreciate the disclaimer, but I won't dispute that, actually. I don't think I would resent my husband if I had a job making more than he does, but I'm also not sure it's entirely accidental that I don't. I went to college and got an English degree because I love literature, not because I thought it would get me a great job. I kept working as a nanny after graduation when a more ambitious person would have started looking for a "real" job. I think I have always had the paradigm in mind of being the at-home mother to my husband's breadwinner role, even as a child.

Edit: Ideologically speaking, I'm a pretty rabid feminist, despite this traditional mindset thingamabob. Just wanted to make that clear. :)

[NoahFence]

Ivy made more than me when we lived in NY. Worked fewer hours, too. We were newlyweds though...I don't know how that would go over now ;)

[Dumpy]

Joe, there's a lot I can say on this thread, but from the other point of view. Some background: My wife, who is probably an ISTJ, is also (like me) a lawyer. She went to a top-five law school (graduated in the mid-90s, for comparison to you), clerked for a federal judge, and has since worked for the government in DC. Right now she works for the Department of Justice, which is a pretty prestigious gig. The problem: She hates being a lawyer. She has decided she wants to be a marine biology researcher. And she is VERY serious. She has absolutely no science background, so, to get into a graduate program, she'd have to complete the equivalent of another undergraduate degree before she can even apply. For the past year, she has cut back on her hours at work, and has taken one or two classes per semester at the local university in chemistry and biology. She'll have to take something around 15-18 classes total in various sciences. Starting January, she plans to quit her job entirely, and go to school full time, with the plan of entering grad school in the fall of 2007 to get a PhD, which will take about five years.

I've got to say, I am very conflicted about all of this--and I feel guilty that I am conflicted. One one hand, why shouldn't she do what will make her happy? We only live once. Who am I to tell her what she can and cannot do? She is getting all As and A+s, so it isn't as if she is in over her head or anything. On the other hand, I don't want to be poor. With the costs of two very young kids, including saving for their college educations, it will be very hard to make ends meet on one salary, especially when you add in tuition costs. We'd likely have to move across country; I'd have to find a new job (which completely frightens me); we'd have to sell our house and find a new place to live in a higher-cost area (assuming she goes to school where I think she wants to). Not to mention that her ultimate reward--assuming that she could find a job in the ultra-competitive marine biology field--will be a job that pays a fraction of her current one (which is, in turn, a fraction of what she could get in private practice). We will likely reach the end of our savings just when she is ready to start grad school. We will no longer be able to retire wealthy enough to really travel the world. I'd probably have to work longer than I would otherwise before retiring. There's a lot that we'll be giving up because of this.

So this is a real mental and emotional conflict for me. And, like your wife, I've got to admit to a little frustration and jealosy, too, over the fact that I can't quit my job also. It's natural, I think. Your wife and I are faced with possible changes in lifestyle that we didn't expect. Now, I'm trying to just do what I can to ease the coming transition.

Anyway, I'm not one to give advice, but you should think about what she may be feeling inside--maybe she is worried about starting a family with a smaller budget?--and think of ways to compromise. For instance, is there a way to do both for a little while, just to see if you will like the writing, before you completely give up on the legal career?

Anyway, I have to go to a stupid office party. I'd love to talk this out more with you--since we are facing the same issues from the opposite perspective, we might be able to help each other figure all this out.

[Rajah]

I guess it all comes down to how much you really hate the law. When I was at my last job, I'd wake up and feel physically ill at the thought of having go to in to work. And it wasn't the writing I hated; in fact, that was the best part of the job. It still wasn't enough to compensate for all of the other components of my job I absolutely detested.

Again, it comes down to the fact that not only would I have never been happy, I would have been depressed and miserable all the time. If it were at all tolerable, I would have found a way to stick it out. It's simply not.

Plus, I don't think this situation is the same as Dumpy and his wife's. It's not like you're going to go further into debt by heading back to grad school. You'll still be making a decent salary doing something you love. And, as noted, you may match or even exceed your present salary.

Again, I think it's not so much you convincing your wife that this is a good idea, as it is showing her how the reality of the situation. I really do think she resents giving up her lawyer husband and a the stability she envisioned. She is probably scared of the uncertainty she perceives this career change may bring. However, we all know that her fears are probably exaggerated.

I hope you can work this out soon. It's no fun feeling trapped doing something you hate. My husband, an ENFP, has been very supportive of me through all this. On the other hand, our bills are always paid late, we never get things done, and our house is a nightmare. There are trade-offs, and some days I'd love an SJ in my life. :)

[joecancer]

There's a sense of irony in that an INTP, known for discerning future possibilities, exhausted financial resources and in that process fueled somebody else's materialistic dreams to prepare for a job that he really hates.

I don't think it's ironic.
For one, you're implying that INTPs never, or rarely, make mistakes. As INTPs, we're often (and especially when we forget about our type) drawn to conform. Secondly, I don't think my decision to go to law school was a total mistake (maybe my attitude will change over time). Law school prepares one for a career in the law, but it also fosters analytical thinking about complex issues and an understanding of our legal system, which can be used in many careers. In my case, I had two amazing INTP professors that I took repeatedly, which made law school valuable because they were brilliant and challenging. I'm still interested in the law, but I just don't want to practice the law. I guess I want to understand it more than anything, and be able to explain that understanding to other people.

Finally, many people who do practice law don't make very much money, because they work in public interest law. So, I don't think I fueled materialistic dreams intentionally, and if I did fuel them unintentionally, I can't help that.

[joecancer]

Dumpy, I think our circumstances are pretty different, as Rajah points out. In fact, are you sure your wife is an SJ? What she wants to do sounds drastic even to me.

Rajah, I think I do feel close to how you felt. I feel physically ill most of the day. By the way, I know most everyone is probably sick of hearing about my dilemma, but for those who aren't, my wife has now decided she is completely against the job. Her reason? I pushed her too hard to get her to budge on her 38K minimum, and she felt it was my way of trying to take advantage of her once more. Last night, she said if I do take the job, she will cease doing things for me like cook (which she normally does every night). I told her that's fine. She told me she supported me through law school (which I told her isn't entirely true, making her more furious) and now it's my turn to support us. She said we had a deal. I told her I didn't remember such a deal. She got even madder. she said that if I do this, everything will change. I will have to live on the money I make, and she will live on hers. I told her fine. I told her that, if I become a famous journalist, I'm going to take some sweet trips by myself. I said that doesn't sound like much of a marriage. She said that she's going to take some trips to see friends without me soon, while I'm still poor. I said "how soon can you go? Can you take a trip this weekend?" We didn't talk much after that.

[Dumpy]

Oh, dear. I feel for you, Joe, with whatever F I have. You're right, our situations are different; the comparison I was trying to make was between my emotional reaction and your wife's. Like her, at first I was a little angry and perplexed and frustrated--after all, who is being selfish here? Is it me, for wanting greater income and more stability, or is it her, for putting her own wishes above the well-being of our family? I just don't know. I'm pretty sure my wife's an SJ, but she's never taken the test. Still, I think that my INTP-ness has helped me here, because we're more willing to be accepting to new situations and drastic changes then Js.

Anyway, this isn't about me; it's about you, and I don't want to hijack your thread . . . I understand how you feel about your job; I felt the same way about a consulting job I once had--I felt almost emotionally abused, and in the end, I quit without having another job lined up, and I was unemployed for months. My main question for you, though, is why do you feel the need to make such an abrupt change? As you have said, you can do a lot with a law degree--and, in fact, you can do a lot of different things as a practicing lawyer. The few months that you've been at your job seems to be a pretty short time to make such a drastic decision (although not unprecedented, of course). Is there some other legal job you can take that is closer to your interests? What is it that you don't like about your job in particular? Is there another legal job you could try for a few months before making this change? Is there a particular area of the law you are interested in? Do you live in a city, with many options, or a more rural area, where it may be hard to find a variety of work?

If I may say so, though, your wife sems to be a bit over-the-top on this issue. The difference in salary for you isn't really that big, as someone else pointed out. It sounds like she is just lashing out randomly in frustration. Maybe she is thinking about how much you could make as a practicing lawyer in 5 years, as opposed to a journalist?

[joecancer]

yeah, I gues even if our situations aren't entirely the same, they do present the same basic question which every relationship poses: how do you find balance in a relationship, which is ultimately a power struggle as much as it's a joint effort? at what point is the relationship more important than one's personal objectives, and wat what point does it cease to be that way? What do you do when BOTH of you have completely different opinions on something that you deem is crucial to the relationship and to you personally? Basically, I think the answer is this: I can't be a truly contributing member of a partnership if I am forced to completly lose myself in the partnership. The best partnership, I believe, is where both partners are dedicated to themselves and to the partnership. I think I am thinking about both myself and the partnership in this instance. If I decided to be a sports writer or a film critic, that would be more drastic. But I don't think my possible change is that drastic. I'll still be involved with the law on a daily basis. And I have given this tremendous amount of thought for a long time, including while working for almost two years during law school at another firm. There, I decided that the only thing I truly enjoyed doing was writing. Unfortunately, that only comprised about 5-10% of what I did. So, I decided that I wanted to be an attorney that did writing only. Unfortunately, there aren't many of those, and those jobs are almost impossible to get out of law school. Isent out resumes to those positions, and never heard anything back. I don't think this move will preclude me from getting back into law, and might actually help if I want a position where writing is the main element (such as in appellate work).
sorry, that was kind of a long answer.

[MacGuffin]

Hmm, I wish I had more advice for you joe, but I don't. I can see having the exact same conversation with my wife if I pushed her.

[Madrigal]

How's it going, Joe? I admire you for defending your needs. It's too bad she either does not see them as such, or doesn't care.

It does seem that she believes she has made a sacrifice for you by 'supporting' you (whatever you meant by that) during law school, and it is only fair that there should be a mutual desire to make sacrifices for each other when necessary. But I don't think that conditioning your entire career change to a few thousand dollars should qualify as a legitimate 'sacrifice'. She doesn't seem to understand how important it is not to get stuck with the wrong career path.

I'm wondering if she assigns considerably less importance to the fulfillment that one obtains from a professional career or vocation. maybe this aspect of your life has a greater importance for you in terms of happiness. Could it be that for her, marriage and family life are placed as the most important areas of her life, while your priorities are different? Maybe this is what is making it so difficult for her to understand how important it is for you to get on the right track as early as possible.

She insists on measuring your professional success in terms of money, and how that money will affect her standard of living and family life. But you are thinking above all in terms of professional achievements and not income. I think this is a problem a lot of INTPs have with their non-INTP partners. My bf of three years, for example, ressents that I would invest so much time in activities that are not related to my time spent with him. He has difficulty understanding that this does not place him as the least important of my priorities. I have had to make a special effort to find extra time to be with him as well as to think of ways to share this area of my life with him in some way, so he wouldn't feel left out. But I never once thought of dropping any one of these necessary activities.

Maybe your wife doesn't feel appreciated enough, and this is a way of getting that ressentment to surface in some way. Maybe you need to spend more quality time with her and help her understand what you love about writing, letting her into that part of your life.

One example: My bf used to ressent the time I'd spend on politics. I started renting movies about political events, and he studies film. By watching these movies with me, and discussing them later, he started to understand what I was so passionate about. I would also invite him to activities even though he usually wouldn't come. Just those little things made the situation better. He didn't feel left out, and he could understand what it meant to me.

[Dumpy]

I think the first step in figuring out how to approach this issue is to get her to articulate what is upsetting her so. There may be other ways to address her concerns than to keep practicing law.

[Nighthawk]

Joe ... I ran your situation past my ISFJ wife this morning. She responded just about as your wife did ... minus the emotional investment, of course. Her biggest argument was that eight years of college education were too much time and effort to invest, only to change a career after it was all over ... and compared it to a person getting a medical degree and then deciding not to be a doctor. I countered with a question, asking her if it was justifiable for that person to be miserable at work for the rest of their life just for a house and car. She replied that it wasn't for the house and car, but for what they represent ... security. She also stated that work is just work, and that it wasn't meant to be enjoyable or perfect.

Big surprise there ... given Keirsey's characterization of SJ's as Security-Seeking personalities. It just amazed me that she used that exact word. She's never read Keirsey, nor have I explained that concept to her. The "work need not be enjoyable" facet is something I've also found to be more prevalent among SJ's. They seem to more easily be able to justify doing something that sucks if it provides security in return.

At any rate ... is there any way you can spin your new opportunity in terms of security?

[Ivy]

Big surprise there ... given Keirsey's characterization of SJ's as Security-Seeking personalities. It just amazed me that she used that exact word. She's never read Keirsey, nor have I explained that concept to her. The "work need not be enjoyable" facet is something I've also found to be more prevalent among SJ's. They seem to more easily be able to justify doing something that sucks if it provides security in return.


I definitely think we value security, but I wouldn't say we think suffering is irrelevant. I would modify what your wife said in one way-- if work is not enjoyable, but quitting or changing right away would be detrimental to family security, then deal with it temporarily and make whatever changes are necessary to move into another field gradually, if possible.

I would be pretty upset if Noah decided to quit his job abruptly to start something without benefits like health insurance, or for a lot less money that meant I would have to pick up slack or we would have to downgrade our lifestyle (which is already pretty modest-- if we were higher on the socio-economic scale I would definitely consider downsizing). However, if he were miserable in his career choice, I would support him making some moves towards a career change BEFORE quitting his current position. If switching careers required quitting, I like to think I would be open to ramping up my earnings while he went to school full-time or whatever, but it wouldn't be ideal. Neither would him suffering at work, though.

[joecancer]

Well, I had the interview. It definitely didn't go perfectly, but we'll see. You know that when the first question they ask you is: "So, when are you finally going to pick something and stick with it?", you might be in trouble. Whatever.
As for my wife, we're back on speaking terms, but she hasn't once asked about the interview. I think it's just too painful for her. You would think I was interviewing to become an executioner by the way she's reacted. Whatever.
You guys make good points, but I think I'm just going to lay low and see if I actually get a job offer before raising the issue again with her. Otherwise, why bother starting World War III all over again, right?
I really wish I had know about my INTPness before deciding to go to law school and get married. I sort of researched it (that Do What You Are book told me we make great lawyers), but I don't think I've ever truly understood what it all meant until now. It's kind of funny - she's the one that brought the whole law school idea up in the first place, now that I think of it. Of course, I can't avoid responsibility for either decision, but she definitely raised both marriage and law school as future possibilities for me, and for some reason I was in a "it's time to stop fucking around and do something with my life" mode (which I also remember involved many consecutive days in the gym working out).
Of course, that mode didn't last very long, though it's reverberations can still be felt as if it was yesterday.

[Rajah]

I've known I am an INTP for 12 or so years now. I still thought law school was a good idea, and law was a great match. In fact, those books suggest law is a great fit for INTPs based on some seriously misguided concept of what being a lawyer entails. So, I wouldn't spend another moment thinking you would have made a different decision if only you'd known you were an INTP.

If you ever get hit with the "when are you ever going to settle on a career?" type question during an interview again, just say you know your background is diverse, and it looks like you haven't put down roots, but you've done your research fully and you understand you must commit to the job you're interviewing for. I'd shy away from saying you know you're in for at least two years, but say something to that effect.

No need to broach anything with your wife now... I'd preserve the domestic harmony at least til an offer comes in. Otherwise, you're just unnecessarily stoking a fire.