History of Compulsory Education

[Promethean]

This is an amazing article on the history of the American complulsory school system.

www.users.voicenet.com/~sakossor/ken4_11.html

[Promethean]

The reason I found this so interesting is that I intuitively felt all this to be true while growing up in the public school system. I survived with mind intact somehow, but it certainly wasn't through participating or making good grades. There was always a sense of wrongness to the whole thing and as I began to really develope my self awareness and thinking ability, it was as if I could tell all the other kids were getting dumber by the day. Don't get me wrong, many of them were technically brilliant and could absorb whatever they were taught. It was the ability to question what they were taught, think with there own minds, and be intellectually creative that seemd to get snuffed out. Creativity was left for those areas that have little importance to any type of critical thinking.

Please read this article, it's quite enlightening as to why things are the way they are.

[Ivy]

The reason I found this so interesting is that I intuitively felt all this to be true while growing up in the public school system. I survived with mind intact somehow, but it certainly wasn't through participating or making good grades. There was always a sense of wrongness to the whole thing and as I began to really develope my self awareness and thinking ability, it was as if I could tell all the other kids were getting dumber by the day. Don't get me wrong, many of them were technically brilliant and could absorb whatever they were taught. It was the ability to question what they were taught, think with there own minds, and be intellectually creative that seemd to get snuffed out. Creativity was left for those areas that have little importance to any type of critical thinking.

Please read this article, it's quite enlightening as to why things are the way they are.

You're going to dismiss this as SJ nitpicking, I'll bet, but I thought it was interesting how badly written the article was. There were glaring typos and grammatical errors throughout.

I may post a point-by-point critique later, if I have time. I don't disagree with everything in the article, but there were quite a few assumptions that should be questioned, just as the American public school system should be.

[Promethean]

WELL THEN! You are dismissed nitpicker! Hey wait, let me see those nits, they look taisty.

I'm not really sure about the accuracy of some of the things in the article, but the tone and reasoning sure mirror what I always felt. Whether or not the school system was designed from intentional nefarious plot to serve government, it has become a nefarious system serving government.

[Ivy]

WELL THEN! You are dismissed nitpicker! Hey wait, let me see those nits, they look taisty.

I'm not really sure about the accuracy of some of the things in the article, but the tone and reasoning sure mirror what I always felt. Whether or not the school system was designed from intentional nefarious plot to serve government, it has become a nefarious system serving government.

I was pulled out of the public school system after the 5th grade, and I never returned to it. I could be a mindless SJ drone if that hadn't happened. I'm serious. I thank my parents every chance I get for sparing me that fate.

My mother used to wonder if the public school system was an intentional plot by Republicans to keep the people who couldn't afford private school dumb and sheep-like. (What can I say, she's an unusual woman.) Over the years, I think we've both come to another conclusion-- it's just too big, too corporate, and can't meet the needs of every child in its current form. ESPECIALLY not with "No Child Left Untested." Returning control to local communities might meet the needs of each child better, but it comes with its own set of problems.

[Promethean]

Yah, I can agree with that. Sounds like you had an awsome mom.

[ptGatsby]

I'm going to have to agree;

The content is not false but the logic is a bit painful to read. It would also better served to have maintainted a more neutral fact-seeking tone, rather than a hybrid of that and logic jumps. The entrance is strong, but by the end, I'm scratching my head.

I have a hard time believing this was written by a teacher... even a public school one. My mom was one and would of killed me for producing an essay like this (and please, no comments on my grammar in posts... I have always been lazy that way :P )

Such as...

It such a world people who read too well or too early are dangerous because they become privately empowered, they know too much, and know how to find out what they don t know by themselves, without consulting experts.





My mother used to wonder if the public school system was an intentional plot by Republicans to keep the people who couldn't afford private school dumb and sheep-like.


Theoretically, that would be a conservative concept, yes. Specific class and no social upheaval being core tenets of that belief.

That exact thing has happened in other countries, even if this article doesn't express it as well as it should be - the history of public education is pretty ugly.

(Also, from what I gather, the US had public education movements pre-18th century, and before that, Scotland a couple hundred years before that).

[Lee]

Yeah, public education is riddled with problems. The bigger problem is finding a workable solution. I am not sure specifically about the US system, but the British system seems to have gotten progressively worse over the last 10 years or so.

What do you do about it though?

[booyalab]

My mother used to wonder if the public school system was an intentional plot by Republicans to keep the people who couldn't afford private school dumb and sheep-like. (What can I say, she's an unusual woman.) Over the years, I think we've both come to another conclusion-- it's just too big, too corporate, and can't meet the needs of every child in its current form. ESPECIALLY not with "No Child Left Untested." Returning control to local communities might meet the needs of each child better, but it comes with its own set of problems.

interesting your mom should say that, since democrats are the ones whose so-called solutions to our education system problems exclusively consist of throwing more money at it. "no child left behind" may be flawed, but at least it is a halfway credible attempt at making a change.

too corporate? that's a hilariously stupid assessment. I dont even know how to try to explain to you how wrong you are because I can't even begin to understand how you'd confuse a government program with a corporation.

[Promethean]

I see little diference in the damage done by dems or repubs, both parties represent the state. "No child left behind" was a horrible plan and no governemnt intervention could ever be viewed as a credible attmept at making positive change. Government involvemnent in education IS the problem. The very idea of state sponsored education should scare the hell out of any classical liberals/libertarians (not saying you are one).

As far as the corporate thing, I took it a lot less literal and followed the idea of a faceless impersonal system. Maybe not the best word but the point was still made I think.

[Ivy]

interesting your mom should say that, since democrats are the ones whose so-called solutions to our education system problems exclusively consist of throwing more money at it. "no child left behind" may be flawed, but at least it is a halfway credible attempt at making a change.

too corporate? that's a hilariously stupid assessment. I dont even know how to try to explain to you how wrong you are because I can't even begin to understand how you'd confuse a government program with a corporation.

Evidently you misunderstood how I was using the word "corporate." Like "corporate worship," all together doing the same things at the same time. Not individualized.

[Ivy]

As far as the corporate thing, I took it a lot less literal and followed the idea of a faceless impersonal system. Maybe not the best word but the point was still made I think.

You're exactly right. I thought it was clear in context.

[headfonez]

all i know is i cried like a baby my first year of kindergarden.

[Ivy]

Yeah, public education is riddled with problems. The bigger problem is finding a workable solution. I am not sure specifically about the US system, but the British system seems to have gotten progressively worse over the last 10 years or so.

What do you do about it though?

Lee, I missed your reply earlier. Glad I came back to read over this thread again. :)

I can't speak for the UK's school system. In the US, I surely don't think the answer lies in either tossing more money at the system, or in standardized testing with incentives based on those scores. In my opinion, a large part of the problem IS "standardization" itself. There needs to be more individuation of instruction. In a classroom of 25 children, no two of them learn at the same pace, in the same way. Smaller classes in smaller schools in smaller districts, with more local control, seem like steps in the right direction.

Charter schools, which are basically public schools in a district unto themselves, are an exciting trend to me. They have to compete to attract families-- nobody goes to a charter school by default. There are times I think that the default system is what's failing our schools, because most people just send their children to the one they're districted into, and that means there is little to no incentive for schools to compete. They're going to get that per-child money anyway.

I'd be interested to hear other ideas.

[Zephyrus055]

I was pulled out of the public school system after the 5th grade, and I never returned to it. I could be a mindless SJ drone if that hadn't happened. I'm serious. I thank my parents every chance I get for sparing me that fate.

My mother used to wonder if the public school system was an intentional plot by Republicans to keep the people who couldn't afford private school dumb and sheep-like. (What can I say, she's an unusual woman.) Hahaaha! I think that you're a SJ drone who intends to revive the Persian Empire with the help of your INTP husband http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/smile.gif. j/k

[Ivy]

Hahaaha! I think that you're a SJ drone who intends to revive the Persian Empire with the help of your INTP husband http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/smile.gif. j/k

We spend way too much time on internet message boards to be reviving any empires. :)

[Ivy]

all i know is i cried like a baby my first year of kindergarden.

Were your second and third years of Kindergarten more pleasant for you?

*badumTSCH*

[MasterMerk]

courtesey wikipedia:



"Institutions are not pretty. Show me a pretty government. Healing is wonderful, but the American Medical Association? Learning is wonderful, but universities? The same is true for religion... religion is institutionalized spirituality." – Huston Smith

"If you do follow your bliss you put yourself on a kind of track that has been there all the while, waiting for you, and the life that you ought to be living is the one you are living. When you can see that, you begin to meet people who are in your field of bliss, and they open doors to you. I say, follow your bliss and don't be afraid, and doors will open where you didn't know they were going to be." – Joseph Campbell

"The new age of education is programmed for discovery rather than instruction. Art as radar environment, radar feedback, early warning system: the antennae of the race." – Marshall McLuhan

"My education was of the most ordinary description, consisting of little more than the rudiments of reading, writing, and arithmetic at a common day school. My hours out of school were passed at home and in the streets."

– Michael Faraday, who had little mathematics and no formal schooling beyond the primary grades, is celebrated as an experimenter who discovered the induction of electricity. He was one of the great founders of modern physics. It is generally acknowledged that Faraday's ignorance of mathematics contributed to his inspiration, that it compelled him to develop a simple, nonmathematical concept when he looked for an explanation of his electrical and magnetic phenomena. Faraday is considered by some to have possessed two qualities that more than made up for his lack of traditional education: fantastic intuition, and independence and originality of mind.

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." – Albert Einstein

"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." – Albert Einstein

"I think the big mistake in schools is trying to teach children anything, and by using fear as the basic motivation. Fear of getting failing grades, fear of not staying with your class, etc. Interest can produce learning on a scale compared to fear as a nuclear explosion to a firecracker... I never learned anything at all in school and didn't read a book for pleasure until I was 19 years old." – Stanley Kubrick

"I never let schooling get in the way of my education." – Mark Twain


I'm primarily self-taught, you might have guessed. :)

[Ivy]

I'm primarily self-taught, you might have guessed. :)

There's a branch of home schooling that I think many INTP's would have thrived with: unschooling. It's a disaster if you're not a self-led learner, but for a motivated and curious child, it can be fabulous.

For the period of time that I was homeschooled (10th grade and onward) I was given complete choice about how to proceed. I ended up auditing college classes in the subjects I was interested in/thought I needed to know, because I am the type who needs a teacher and some structure.

[Mr. Beef]

The problem with the US school system is that it isn't good at attending to everyone's needs. We throw millions of dollars into special ed. each year and for what? I mean the plain and simple fact of the matter is that all they need to learn is how to hold a broomstick. That may sound cold, but there's no getting around it. If there was anything I could do about it then i would, but you can't deny that many of them just aren't intelligent enought to contribute much to society. Instead, i think that schools should focus more on promoting a better social atmosphere and focusing more on life skills in general rather than strict academics. I also think that a LOT more money should come out of the special ed. funding and into the gifted education funding (in fact i think that the highly gifted should go to entirely different schools). Based on the kids i knew at school and the people i had to deal with, i can say that adequate gifted education is a must. Also, i think that the arts should be emphasized more, and that there should be much more flexibility in the types of assignments that can be done/when they are due. I think that schools should go much faster curricula-wise, and that they should encourage more ways to engage students. I've also been toying with the idea of grouping temperments somehow....whether through classes, academies, clubs or schools. Oh...and one of THE WORST things that the school system does is encourages linear thinking. Creative thinking ability is one of the most important things you can have in this world, and it is often completely ignored or downplayed in school systems, public or private. It honestly wouldn't be that hard to just throw some lateral thinking questions onto a test...whether it be math, english, science or history. And if not that, then they could at least ENCOURAGE students to think for themselves and not tell them that "the traditional way is always best." But we all know why these things don't and never will exist, so let's stop hoping.

[Zephyrus055]

We spend way too much time on internet message boards to be reviving any empires. :) lol. And I'm sorry I misjudged your map, and consequently your intentions. Initially I thought that that was a map of the Persian Empire around the time of Xerxes I, but now I feel really stupid because it looks more like modern day Turkey, lol.

[MasterMerk]

I am familiar with unschooling. It appears as though you would need some sort of sensible adult to facilitate the child's development, however. Generally, children will need resources laid out for them. But if it's an NP, you shouldn't have to do anything more than push them in the right direction. And I can tell you with much sincerity that I learned absolutely nothing of value from primary school that I couldn't have learned in month.

I find most formal structures of learning rather constricting and claustrophobic. In High School I would have preferred to learn everything quickly and generally. But as it turned out, the classes progressed so sluggishly that I became bored, leading me to unmotivation and carelessness. Ended up bombing my senior year (this year.)

It seems as though everything is stacked against your personality in that type of environment. Rote. Details. Rote. Details. We weren't ever explained anything with in a coherent whole - the whole syllabus of a subject forms an independent collection of factoids. Not very holistic in its presentation of the actual implications of studied information, so there's no usage to it on its own. Like studying a bunch of formulas, yet not knowing what the fuck they mean, where the fuck they relate to everything else and how the fuck they provide you with an answer.

[Ivy]

I am familiar with unschooling. It appears as though you would need some sort of sensible adult to facilitate the child's development, however. Generally, children will need resources laid out for them. But if it's an NP, you shouldn't have to do anything more than push them in the right direction.

Oh, absolutely. I don't think any (or many) unschoolers advocate cutting a child loose to learn with no help or facilitation! They're still children-- they don't always know where to look for the information sources they crave.


I find most formal structures of learning rather constricting and claustrophobic. In High School I would have preferred to learn everything quickly and generally. But as it turned out, the classes progressed so sluggishly that I became bored, leading me to unmotivation and carelessness. Ended up bombing my senior year (this year.)

It seems as though everything is stacked against your personality in that type of environment. Rote. Details. Rote. Details. We weren't ever explained anything with in a coherent whole - the whole syllabus of a subject forms an independent collection of factoids. Not very holistic in its presentation of the actual implications of studied information, so there's no usage to it on its own. Like studying a bunch of formulas, yet not knowing what the fuck they mean, where the fuck they relate to everything else and how the fuck they provide you with an answer.

My brother and my husband (both NTs-- I think my brother is an ENTP) would say exactly the same thing. And they both burned out in high school as well. My sister the ESFJ kicked ass in public high school because she saw it as a hoop to be jumped through before she could go to REAL school (university). She was never disappointed by the method of instruction because she thought it was all bullshit and never bought it anyway, she just did what she had to do.

[Ivy]

lol. And I'm sorry I misjudged your map, and consequently your intentions. Initially I thought that that was a map of the Persian Empire around the time of Xerxes I, but now I feel really stupid because it looks more like modern day Turkey, lol.

Right. Note the turkey leg. It's my Thanksgiving avatar. :)

[wildcat]

You're going to dismiss this as SJ nitpicking, I'll bet, but I thought it was interesting how badly written the article was. There were glaring typos and grammatical errors throughout.

I may post a point-by-point critique later, if I have time. I don't disagree with everything in the article, but there were quite a few assumptions that should be questioned, just as the American public school system should be.
Thank you Ivy. You are a real pal. Please remember to include the quotes from the original piece when you criticise so your admiring reader (=me) does not need to saw forth and back. I am interested to hear what you will say. I just cannot wait!

[wildcat]

The reason I found this so interesting is that I intuitively felt all this to be true while growing up in the public school system. I survived with mind intact somehow, but it certainly wasn't through participating or making good grades. There was always a sense of wrongness to the whole thing and as I began to really develope my self awareness and thinking ability, it was as if I could tell all the other kids were getting dumber by the day. Don't get me wrong, many of them were technically brilliant and could absorb whatever they were taught. It was the ability to question what they were taught, think with there own minds, and be intellectually creative that seemd to get snuffed out. Creativity was left for those areas that have little importance to any type of critical thinking.

Please read this article, it's quite enlightening as to why things are the way they are.
Well.. the article was indeed interesting and to the point.. and so is your post. This stuff and its historical context remind me of

Erinnerungen eines Europäers: die Welt von Gestern-

The World of Yesterday: The Memoires of a European- by Stefan Zweig

[MacGuffin]

Right. Note the turkey leg. It's my Thanksgiving avatar. :)Ah, turkey leg.

Cause for the longest time I thought you were taking a dump on Turkey.

[Ivy]

Ah, turkey leg.

Cause for the longest time I thought you were taking a dump on Turkey.


Gross. It does kind of look like that. We tried to find one with the little white cap on it to more clearly indicate it as a turkey leg, but no such luck.

By the way, here is a link relevant to the thread topic:

http://www.qwantz.com/index.pl?comic=652

[s]

The American school system mostly prepares the public for a low to moderately skilled "9-5" job and baby sits them while their parents work. While the schools may prepare people for a corporate job, corporations are not allowed the level of incompetance school districts are permitted.

The comment about the school system being a Republican conspiracy is laughable as Republicans would like nothing more than to give vouchers for private schools and cut funding.

A public school education is a basic framework and additional learning is up to a student and his/her parents. A free thinker is not up to a nanny state to create, as it is a conflict of interests.

The writer may have been sloppy and he may be bemoaning his own poor education between the lines of the essay, but poor education does not equal unintelligent. Thought-provoking ideas come in all sorts of packages.

[Ivy]

The comment about the school system being a Republican conspiracy is laughable as Republicans would like nothing more than to give vouchers for private schools and cut funding.

Yeah, it was supposed to be laughable. That's two so far who have taken it more seriously than it was intended. You'll notice it's not what I believe, or even what my mother currently believes. And I notice that nobody has yet taken issue with what I actually said I thought was the real problem, with the exception of someone who misinterpreted my use of the word "corporate." From this I can only conclude that my opinion is objectively correct. :)


The writer may have been sloppy and he may be bemoaning his own poor education between the lines of the essay, but poor education does not equal unintelligent. Thought-provoking ideas come in all sorts of packages.

This is true. I found it amusingly ironic, that's all.

[s]

From this I can only conclude that my opinion is objectively correct. :)



This is true. I found it amusingly ironic, that's all.

Everyone's opinion is correct to them isn't it? /laughs

If you notice, I didn't directly address your post, but merely ideas presented.

(ah, the difference between an SFJ and an NTP.)

[Apostasius]

Just a few random thoughts...

I think part of the failure of public education is the recognition that all citizens of the state need an education in order to be good, productive citizens. While a noble goal, this notion fails to recognize a range of intellectual achievement (or the lack thereof). It therefore seems to place everyone into a mold of mass produced educated citizens.

Public education must work for the largest number of people in the attempt to maximize its usefulness. To me, the problem is that such a view of education leaves behind both those who have below average intelligence and those who have above average intelligence. Such a view of education also disregards differences in temperament and favors those who follow the rules of education. Hence, many SJs do quite well while many SPs do not. A generalized curriculum favors a cookie cutter model and fails to reach kids who are critical innovative thinkers.

Recognizing that such a problem exists, even if it is misunderstood, then fosters an attempt to leave no child behind and/or to develop education standards that can be tested. Once again, as I see it, education standards perpetuate the original problem of education mass production. Furthermore, the attempt to leave no child behind, while meaning well, lowers the threshold of common education reducing its effectiveness. The real losers are the gifted students and those who are well above average. If we teach students at the lowest common denominator, then that is what we get.

One potential solution is quite impractical for modern society, but I think it would go a long way toward improving the state of education--mentoring--one on one instruction or instruction in small groups. Socrates mentored Plato who mentored Aristotle who mentored Alexander the great. I am sure I am biased toward this solution, because I know this is how I would best learn. It would allow one to ask questions, investigate things, learn a trade (or whatever). It would seem to maximize individual strengths. Of course, I do think that everyone needs a certain level of education to function in the modern world, but I think that this level of education can occur in the elementary/primary school years. After these early years, it just makes more sense to me to tailor education to suit the strengths and interests of the individual. Perhaps a system wherein the public education model is reduced gradually year by year as a student develops would work best. Or perhaps this potential solution is bunk.

[Purple-Silver Fox]

The core idea of the article is right: Education focuses too much on obedience and too little on development.

There's a bias in it, however, labeling bad things an unamerican, socialist, too much state etc. This leads to misusing of the Swedish example: Only the 9 year program is compulsory, but the 3 years of upper secondary are completed by almost everyone. There are also numerous pre- and postcompulsory education programs available - and they are all heavily subsidised.

Not the compulsion or the state funding is the problem, but the lack of choice between schools, method and contents. The compulsory nature of school has ended child labour, and state funding has made an education available for everyone.
The problem is the top-down, hierarchical approach which was typical for the 19th century economy and politics. Classic hierarchical organizations like churches joined in happily.

Modern education should be replaced with a combination of mentoring and independent study within a school, making very divers students work togehether.

[Promethean]

The problem with the US school system is that it isn't good at attending to everyone's needs. We throw millions of dollars into special ed. each year and for what? I mean the plain and simple fact of the matter is that all they need to learn is how to hold a broomstick. That may sound cold, but there's no getting around it. If there was anything I could do about it then i would, but you can't deny that many of them just aren't intelligent enought to contribute much to society. Instead, i think that schools should focus more on promoting a better social atmosphere and focusing more on life skills in general rather than strict academics. I also think that a LOT more money should come out of the special ed. funding and into the gifted education funding (in fact i think that the highly gifted should go to entirely different schools). Based on the kids i knew at school and the people i had to deal with, i can say that adequate gifted education is a must. Also, i think that the arts should be emphasized more, and that there should be much more flexibility in the types of assignments that can be done/when they are due. I think that schools should go much faster curricula-wise, and that they should encourage more ways to engage students. I've also been toying with the idea of grouping temperments somehow....whether through classes, academies, clubs or schools. Oh...and one of THE WORST things that the school system does is encourages linear thinking. Creative thinking ability is one of the most important things you can have in this world, and it is often completely ignored or downplayed in school systems, public or private. It honestly wouldn't be that hard to just throw some lateral thinking questions onto a test...whether it be math, english, science or history. And if not that, then they could at least ENCOURAGE students to think for themselves and not tell them that "the traditional way is always best." But we all know why these things don't and never will exist, so let's stop hoping.

Been a long time since I looked at this thread. I think I agree with every last thing you said here. Some of my friends and I are devoloping some very detailed plans for a new educational model that features everthing you included especially temperment. We are going for balance rather than catering to specific temperment. We want to use the strengths of each temperment to make all students recognize their individual abilities and adjust and adapt accordingly. There is a lot more to it than or course but that's the general idea.

[Promethean]

Thanks for that info on the article Purple-Silver Fox.

[carmel123]

that link is dead, but i JUST posted an article that looks like its similar to that as a new thread.

http://www.feltd.com/domo3.html

its about the US system of education evolving from the Prussian system in the 1800's, used for mind control.