Ich Tanze

[Helios]

I spent way too much time in India chatting with assorted Westerners. It seemed all the White people who had bothered to make such a trek were painfully interesting. To the point I never saw the Taj cause I spent the 2 whole days talking in fucking cafes!

One of the concepts that I always 'knew', but solidified during these days was that most of the world lived in the squalor and filth that surrounded us there. I already knew this, but some how the meaning of it hit me there. The 3rd world always had been this funny lil place to go see. It was like a movie set, it never was real. Real people don't live like that. Real people live in "normal" houses. Drive nice cars. etc,etc. It was as if the people there were just acting this out, like Disney employees.

But I remember the moment it hit me, sitting there not far from the site of the latest terrorist bombing (always my damn hotel!) and thinking;this is reality, NOT my world, my world is pretend, this is fucking REAL!

I don't know exactly how it will all end, but my Ne suspects this isn't gonna work forever. I fear we are sitting around Versailles or Peterhof agruing over what Champagne flutes to use. Perhaps it won't be like those places, we maybe too far geographicly to see such an end. Perhaps our fate will be more like P'u Yi and our support will just melt from under us. We'll die poor in our own erstwhile palace.


Now here is the part where I should offer a solution. Well, my fav Marxist Madrigal makes me imagine the heady days of early republican St.Peterburg, before the Bolsheviks and Stalin murdered everyone. History has shown that this ideal is doomed to a speedy failure.

I'll agree, that in the short and maybe the mid-term, the iron fisted (ie right-wing) way "fixes" things. But a 1,001 and one collapsed empire attest that this too ends in failure.

There is no answer! Both will fail! This makes me wanna get dressed and go out clubbing tonite! What does it matter?


Real

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/100_1115.JPG


Not Real

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/100_0955.JPG


Hurry! Dance with me before the party implodes!

[lexiphanic]

Clubbing, Heck yeah.

I should go and see the third world sometime. I think it would be an invaluable frame of reference throughout the rest of my life.

[kuranes]

When I think that there are parts of the world where people voluntarily maim themselves, so as to be more effective beggars, it hits me hard. Or people buying little kids from their desperate parents, and then making them go through this, or other horrible ordeals. Ughhhh. We do have it good here. And yet parts of the USA look pretty tapped out to me, too. I try not to think about it, because it just hurts, and mostly to little purpose. But I do tend to think about the underdog when looking at hypothetical changes we could be making. Some people don't like doing this. But some of those people who SEEM cold, are actually more generous in day to day life than I am. They just don't want someone FORCING them to be charitable. It's too bad there aren't MORE such "cold" people. But since there obviously aren't . . . I'm one of those people who toots a horn for the little guy sometimes. I can at least do THAT much, can't I? *laughs at self*

[Helios]

But some of those people who SEEM cold, are actually more generous in day to day life......



You are talking about Misutii and I again aren't you?

[Hypnos]

* The Taj Mahal is overrated -- Agra Fort is where it's at. Call me a Western Chauvinist, but it all pales compared to Rome. India's natural beauty rivals anything in Europe or North America -- the Himalayas, deserts and tropical beaches are incredible.

* India is an object lesson in colonialism. Those who received education and accepted the rule of law and the free market succeeded, but failed to convince the agricultural class. Now, corruption dominates and the best talent flee to greener pastures (e.g., my family). Things seem to be turning around in South India with the still-growing tech sector and reformed state government, but Bengal is still a left-wing mess.

[Helios]

* The Taj Mahal is overrated -- Agra Fort is where it's at. Call me a Western Chauvinist, but it all pales compared to Rome. India's natural beauty rivals anything in Europe or North America -- the Himalayas, deserts and tropical beaches are incredible.

* India is an object lesson in colonialism. Those who received education and accepted the rule of law and the free market succeeded, but failed to convince the agricultural class. Now, corruption dominates and the best talent flee to greener pastures (e.g., my family). Things seem to be turning around in South India with the still-growing tech sector and reformed state government, but Bengal is still a left-wing mess.



God bless you! Your perfect analytical view point has help put down this Fe/Ne conspiracy in my head.

Speaking of being a Western Chauvinist I was really bummed when my bro got sick and we missed the bulk of New Dehli. What could have been more fun than a titantic ViceRegal palace?

Well, anyway, all better now. Poor people? Fuck 'em! I think I still may go clubbing however, :D

[kuranes]

You are talking about Misutii and I again aren't you?

I just wanted to let you know that I'm not as PC as you might think. There were a couple times when I was inspired to post because of D-Man, Hustler or somebody else, and later I'd read something that maybe indicated you believed I was talking about YOU. I shouldn't really "judge" people until I've walked a few miles in their shoes, or whatever. But I'm human, and I go ahead and do so ANYWAY, sometimes.

Hypnos IS often quite persuasive in many of his arguments.

There was a thread a long while back that DID involve you and Misutii, I think. Sheepdog too maybe? Forget what it was.

I don't think I'll ever be able to completely sort out the "what should be's" from the "what is's", myself.

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

Please excuse my necromancy, but this thread came to mind tonight.

I'm in northern Cameroon right now, working in a hospital for a few months. The needs are tremendous, even though this area is very stable and hardly destitute. And I keep bouncing back and forth between wanting to walk away, back to my pristine and convenient industrialized life, and feeling like I have to stay and do something, like I cannot turn away. I feel slightly sick when I see the parallel videos in my mind--me and a friend at Starbucks, drinking in 15 minutes the price of a hospitalization here that many people can barely afford (and sometimes can't get until it's too late).

But what can be done? Problems that have the simplest solutions in the States are completely unmanageable here. And why are we under any obligation to do anything but enjoy our happy accident of birth?

I'm not expressing this well, and I'm waiting for all of you to call me completely ignorant of the real state of the world or a bleeding-heart F or some of that nonsense. So. Bring it. ;)


(now just watch my internet connection and power go out so I can't read this thread for another month)

[Hypnos]

The issue of poverty and privation in the 3rd world is immense. The best way to solve it is not to donate your time, but employ your expertise in economic growth. As ideas and technologies develop, the destitute will gain as well.

You might find this interesting:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,363663,00.html

This is not to say we should not provide the 3rd world with positive externalities: education, honesty in government, and perhaps donations of health goods until their own infrastructures are self-sustaining.

[mancroft]

MuseedesBeauxArts, you really impress me.

[shum]

I spent way too much time in India chatting with assorted Westerners. It seemed all the White people who had bothered to make such a trek were painfully interesting. To the point I never saw the Taj cause I spent the 2 whole days talking in fucking cafes!

One of the concepts that I always 'knew', but solidified during these days was that most of the world lived in the squalor and filth that surrounded us there. I already knew this, but some how the meaning of it hit me there. The 3rd world always had been this funny lil place to go see. It was like a movie set, it never was real. Real people don't live like that. Real people live in "normal" houses. Drive nice cars. etc,etc. It was as if the people there were just acting this out, like Disney employees.

But I remember the moment it hit me, sitting there not far from the site of the latest terrorist bombing (always my damn hotel!) and thinking;this is reality, NOT my world, my world is pretend, this is fucking REAL!

I don't know exactly how it will all end, but my Ne suspects this isn't gonna work forever. I fear we are sitting around Versailles or Peterhof agruing over what Champagne flutes to use. Perhaps it won't be like those places, we maybe too far geographicly to see such an end. Perhaps our fate will be more like P'u Yi and our support will just melt from under us. We'll die poor in our own erstwhile palace.


Now here is the part where I should offer a solution. Well, my fav Marxist Madrigal makes me imagine the heady days of early republican St.Peterburg, before the Bolsheviks and Stalin murdered everyone. History has shown that this ideal is doomed to a speedy failure.

I'll agree, that in the short and maybe the mid-term, the iron fisted (ie right-wing) way "fixes" things. But a 1,001 and one collapsed empire attest that this too ends in failure.

There is no answer! Both will fail! This makes me wanna get dressed and go out clubbing tonite! What does it matter?


Real

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/100_1115.JPG


Not Real

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/100_0955.JPG


Hurry! Dance with me before the party implodes!


ever think about feeling and experiencing the situation rather than judging it?

just saying.

[Leftfield]

To a lesser degree, with a friend from Hungary during my time in Germany - we visited his friends in the Northern flats of Budapest

I can see the perspective of a wanna be 1st power, but more like a 2nd world country. They can live off of the basic ammenities and that is all they really have, utilize the age of technology as long as possible and enjoy the cheaper things in life.

These moments of living with lower-to-middle class Hungarians for the three nights I was there gave me tremendous insight of people working harder than the average American but get paid so much less than the average American relative to the current economic system.

I have no experience in a third world country... sorry

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

The issue of poverty and privation in the 3rd world is immense. The best way to solve it is not to donate your time, but employ your expertise in economic growth. As ideas and technologies develop, the destitute will gain as well.

You might find this interesting:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,363663,00.html

This is not to say we should not provide the 3rd world with positive externalities: education, honesty in government, and perhaps donations of health goods until their own infrastructures are self-sustaining.

Yes. But so many people in the West seem to think that throwing money at the problem is easier. (It is easier, actually.) And the Africans lined up to receive it are more than happy with the arrangement.

So much of what is happening now is still in line with colonialism in a weird sort of way:

1) they're still exporting things to be processed and sold back to them at a higher price. Think of all the raw materials that Cameroon can use for industry. Then let me tell you what I see that's "made in Cameroon" (besides local hand-made furniture, clothes, or baked goods)....toilet paper and matches. That's all I've seen, and I've been looking ever since I got here. My tomato paste is Italian, my cheese is French, phones are Finnish, cars are German and Japanese, and the list goes on. The local industries have simply not developed. (so, for philosophical reasons, I try to eat a lot--that way I'm consuming local resources and supporting the local economy ;))

2) there is still a largely paternalistic Western attitude--the "white man's burden" has shifted, with Bono and Angelina Jolie in the lead. "Our colonialist ancestors got you into this mess, so we must get you out because you can't do it yourselves." Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see many African leaders spearheading these movements.

The difficulty is making the transition happen without collapsing systems that have become propped up by Western aid (certain hospitals come to mind). Or a more concrete example: helping women have enough income to avoid prostitution and AIDS until the economy can support them, and not ending by having them simply dependent on aid. Figuring out when it is appropriate to help and when to step back is a difficult balance--one that I see in my daily life here, with a constant parade of needy and supposedly needy kids at my door. Even the things you suggest providing--education or health supplies--deciding who gets what and how and when gets so complex, particularly if the dynamic created in the past is one of dependence.

And then there's the cultural difference, which throws another snafu in the whole thing.

And (Ms. Ignorant about Economics asks Naively), to what extent (if any) is our system dependent on these countries being in the state they are in?

(And lest you all think I'm being terribly hypocritical, I am working with a Cameroonian-run hospital, and I'm here primarily to learn. So I'm not taking jobs away from Cameroonians or dumping supplies on them. And the organization through which I made arrangements is a continuing medical education group that comes to Africa to help develop their residencies, etc.)

P.S. Thanks, Mancroft. I'm going to go preen now. ;)

[nomir_dva]

To a lesser degree, with a friend from Hungary during my time in Germany - we visited his friends in the Northern flats of Budapest

I can see the perspective of a wanna be 1st power, but more like a 2nd world country. They can live off of the basic ammenities and that is all they really have, utilize the age of technology as long as possible and enjoy the cheaper things in life.

These moments of living with lower-to-middle class Hungarians for the three nights I was there gave me tremendous insight of people working harder than the average American but get paid so much less than the average American relative to the current economic system.

I have no experience in a third world country... sorry

I come from the Second World - which may look rather primitive to someone from the West. But we had food, medicine, electricity - people in eastern Europe may be poor, but even from that perspective, I cannot truly comprehend what it means to live in the Third or Fourth world. The best use I can make of this horrible disparity is to remind myself when I am worried about something that at least, I will always have food to eat. I'm ashamed of myself for that. I want to experience life as it is for the majority of the people in the world.

[omnirook]

I spent way too much time in India chatting with assorted Westerners. It seemed all the White people who had bothered to make such a trek were painfully interesting. To the point I never saw the Taj cause I spent the 2 whole days talking in fucking cafes!

One of the concepts that I always 'knew', but solidified during these days was that most of the world lived in the squalor and filth that surrounded us there. I already knew this, but some how the meaning of it hit me there. The 3rd world always had been this funny lil place to go see. It was like a movie set, it never was real. Real people don't live like that. Real people live in "normal" houses. Drive nice cars. etc,etc. It was as if the people there were just acting this out, like Disney employees.

But I remember the moment it hit me, sitting there not far from the site of the latest terrorist bombing (always my damn hotel!) and thinking;this is reality, NOT my world, my world is pretend, this is fucking REAL!

I don't know exactly how it will all end, but my Ne suspects this isn't gonna work forever. I fear we are sitting around Versailles or Peterhof agruing over what Champagne flutes to use. Perhaps it won't be like those places, we maybe too far geographicly to see such an end. Perhaps our fate will be more like P'u Yi and our support will just melt from under us. We'll die poor in our own erstwhile palace.


Now here is the part where I should offer a solution. Well, my fav Marxist Madrigal makes me imagine the heady days of early republican St.Peterburg, before the Bolsheviks and Stalin murdered everyone. History has shown that this ideal is doomed to a speedy failure.

I'll agree, that in the short and maybe the mid-term, the iron fisted (ie right-wing) way "fixes" things. But a 1,001 and one collapsed empire attest that this too ends in failure.

There is no answer! Both will fail! This makes me wanna get dressed and go out clubbing tonite! What does it matter?


Real

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/100_1115.JPG


Not Real

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/100_0955.JPG


Hurry! Dance with me before the party implodes!
It doesn't "matter" - nothing, not a thing about us, matters. In this Universe, our whole planet is not even as significant as the smallest speck of dust on this planet; that's the truth of the matter - :devil: . But, since we are here, like or not, since we really have nothing else to do, wish that we did or not - why not care about it? - why not work on it? "It" - the world - human society - and its problems are our problems - and, between here and oblivion, there's nothing else that we can do, so why not do it? Sitting like a lump goes against human nature. Why? Why is unimportant - we as a species are such that busy-ness is elemental to our character - so, what the fuck! - do something - anything - it doesn't matter! Go clubbing. The Universe will survive - hell, even the Earth will survive.

[sbw]

the Third or Fourth world.

there's a fourth world?


And, to what extent (if any) is our system dependent on these countries being in the state they are in?

excellent, umm, choice of words. this thread is gonna be awesome now.

Scott

[Leftfield]

there's a fourth world?

Yeah, It's actually called Mississippi by some and Alabama by others. Talk about primative thinking!

[sbw]

Yeah, It's actually called Mississippi by some and Alabama by others. Talk about primative thinking!

:rofl:

Scott

[nomir_dva]

there's a fourth world?

The Fourth World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_Developed_Countries) - even the Third World is not quite as bad as it gets, apparently. I love this planet.

[Hypnos]

MdBA,

Certainly the historical program of colonialism was control and exploitation of natural resources and cheap labor, as well as vague notions of religion and manifest destiny.

Colonial explorers would offer gifts and mutual defense treaties to the indigenous royalty and gentry, install trading posts and secure land rights for themselves to control natural resources and labor, then introduce Christianity and schools meant to provide an example to the savages of the superiority of the imperial homeland.

In some sense, so many leftists are correct that this persists today -- materially, little has changed. The gov't/tribal elites still rule many 3rd world nations, corporations and other old-money interests have significant holdings and still employ laborers who are bound to the land, and the educated and bold flee for greener pastures, often the colonial motherland.

It's stable system of money/graft/influence downward, and economic efficiency upward. However, it does not follow that upper classes should be "re-educated," industries nationalized, and knowledge traded for subjectivity. The cornerstone of colonial oppression, as such, has been in preventing indigenous peoples from building capital, either material or educational, if they are not also playing by the colonizers (or, more recently, corrupt gov't's) rules.

Amartya Sen analyzes (http://books.google.com/books?id=Qm8HtpFHYecC&dq=Development+as+Freedom) what it takes to develop. Certainly, the freedom to build capital and the surety of property and contracts, but also the capabilities of basic infrastructure and welfare so that people can participate in the market in the first place.

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

excellent, umm, choice of words. this thread is gonna be awesome now.

Scott

:P

[Ferrus]

I should go and see the third world sometime. I think it would be an invaluable frame of reference throughout the rest of my life.
Yeah, the same. A mate of mine did, as did my cousin and they were never quite the same in their view of the world.

As for a revolution? They appear to busy being willing to kill each other rather than focus their energies against the West. Besides they do see some hope in Asia which has been improving its situation dramatically in the last half century.

[Helios]

Please excuse my necromancy, but this thread came to mind tonight.




Firstly this is the most succesful necromancy of all time. This threads first life pales in comparison! Secondly I am flattered you even remembered it! Lastly, I'll add I too am most impressed with you current affairs. I have a bit of evny when I think about the rich yield of knowledge and understandong you'll bring home with you. Good work!






ever think about feeling and experiencing the situation rather than judging it?

just saying.


Who is judgeing what? I am a experiance whore, I seek them out and them struggle find meaning and reason in them. That is pretty much everything I do. I did experiance India very intensely, you can't be impacted by something so profoundly and fail to react to it!

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

Hypnos,

In theory, what you say makes sense. In practice, though, it breaks down. At least here, now, in my life. On a daily basis, trying to meet needs without perpetuating destructive cycles of dependence...it seems nearly impossible.


I am flattered you even remembered it!

Uh, somehow that juxtaposition of India and Disney World stuck in my head. ;)

[Hypnos]

Hypnos,

In theory, what you say makes sense. In practice, though, it breaks down. At least here, now, in my life. On a daily basis, trying to meet needs without perpetuating destructive cycles of dependence...it seems nearly impossible.
Obviously piecemeal efforts won't amount to much -- when one person tries to do good, there are 5 others there to take advantage.

This is why it has to happen externally, by gov't and with the right incentives. There are a few developing world success stories, like Taiwan.

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

Obviously piecemeal efforts won't amount to much -- when one person tries to do good, there are 5 others there to take advantage.

This is why it has to happen externally, by gov't and with the right incentives. There are a few developing world success stories, like Taiwan.

So this means we sit on our hands and wait? Or we become economists? I understand and agree with your points, but how about now, in this situation? I guess I'm looking for other ways to be involved, to not walk away. But without ultimately doing more harm than good.

Last night at the hospital, a woman died because her family could not pay for her hospitalization, so they took her home. When they brought her back, she was too far gone to be saved. She died in the OR. If I had been on call, I could have advanced the money, or at least given enough to get her treatment underway. It probably would have saved her life. But what does it do when a hospital has a reputation of having the money to pay for care for those who cannot afford it? Well, people come back with different carnets under different names, telling new stories each time. They pretend they are destitute, and the whole system gets screwed over and left without resources for others. That happens, too.

I don't know if I have a point. Just that I really wish the neat black-and-white of these responses seemed applicable to my life right now. Or something like that.

[Helios]

I don't know if I have a point. Just that I really wish the neat black-and-white of these responses seemed applicable to my life right now. Or something like that.


I totally understand. I have spent a good chunk of time in a few developing nations. And it is all so complex and so HUGE I end up just mentally walking away for my own sanity. You have a circumstance where none of 'our' answers really work when you get there.


Again I aplaude your efforts. Myself, I turn in to a prophet of doom or a nihlist hedonist if I think about it too much.

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

I totally understand. I have spent a good chunk of time in a few developing nations. And it is all so complex and so HUGE I end up just mentally walking away for my own sanity. You have a circumstance where none of 'our' answers really work when you get there.

Exactly. I'm trying to stay mentally here, but so often, I wish I could just walk away and not know how things are. I keep thinking about this one passage in Nietzsche that I'm just about to completely decontextualize and generally bastardize. (meaning that all of you Nietzsche fans should just stop reading now) It's talking about Hamlet and the Dionysian man, and he says, "...for their action could not change anything in the eternal nature of things; they feel it to be ridiculous or humiliating that they should be asked to set right a world that is out of joint." So there's this tension for me between throwing up my hands and saying it's ridiculous and resenting the fact that I am somehow drawn to help fix it...and getting deeply involved and trying to make things right that might not be fixable.

And then I worry that, if I actually come up with workable solutions or means of assistance that would help right now, they might ultimately do more harm than good. I mean, as consistent as I try to be, I sometimes wonder if me even being here is actually a good thing.

And after all that, I'm honestly not sure that the reality of the situation here has sunk in. But I will say that I don't know how the Cameroonian doctors here have the optimism and energy to keep working at it. I have tremendous respect for them, and the staff as well.


Again I aplaude your efforts. Myself, I turn in to a prophet of doom or a nihlist hedonist if I think about it too much.

Well, I'm very definitely going out drinking tomorrow night--if nothing else, to make my thoughts stop running in crazy circles (see above). Hedonism is looking rather appealing at the moment. At least more appealing than prophesying doom. ;)

[mancroft]

Hey, MuseedesBeauxArts, what sort of work are you doing? General nursing?

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

Hey, MuseedesBeauxArts, what sort of work are you doing? General nursing?

Nope. I'm just jumping in....learning what I can, and contributing my knowledge and experience when it's practical. I've been rotating through different services in the hospital--mostly maternity, surgery, and pediatrics thus far. I guess you would call it an internship. Most of my medical experience is in hospice, free "bandaid clinics" for the homeless, and public health (mostly AIDS prevention, and in a completely different culture). Meaning that a good part of my knowledge and know-how just doesn't apply here. But people are more than happy to throw you in if you have a little sense and two hands. A little too happy, sometimes.

This means that I've gotten to play midwife's assistant with absolutely no experience beforehand. But I was also able to teach nurses, lab techs, and social workers from throughout the region about the prevention of mother-to-child transmission of VIH. And I'm looking at what it would take to work towards establishing a hospice here.

[Shimpei]

Nope. I'm just jumping in....learning what I can, and contributing my knowledge and experience when it's practical. I've been rotating through different services in the hospital--mostly maternity, surgery, and pediatrics thus far. I guess you would call it an internship. Most of my medical experience is in hospice, free "bandaid clinics" for the homeless, and public health (mostly AIDS prevention, and in a completely different culture). Meaning that a good part of my knowledge and know-how just doesn't apply here. But people are more than happy to throw you in if you have a little sense and two hands. A little too happy, sometimes.

This means that I've gotten to play midwife's assistant with absolutely no experience beforehand. But I was also able to teach nurses, lab techs, and social workers from throughout the region about the prevention of mother-to-child transmission of VIH. And I'm looking at what it would take to work towards establishing a hospice here.

Nice.

[Hypnos]

So this means we sit on our hands and wait? Or we become economists? I understand and agree with your points, but how about now, in this situation? I guess I'm looking for other ways to be involved, to not walk away. But without ultimately doing more harm than good.
Well, there's always politics ...

Just as we are aghast at the suffering in the destitute parts of the world, beings from the future would be aghast by ours ("Cancer?!"). You do what you can without causing more problems, and otherwise simply enjoy the existence that is yours.

[mancroft]

Nice.

Nice. Is that all you can say, Shimpei? Nice?

I think what MuseedesBeauxArts is doing is really impressive. I wouldn't do something like that for all the tea in China.

[Shimpei]

Nice. Is that all you can say, Shimpei? Nice?

I think what MuseedesBeauxArts is doing is really impressive. I wouldn't do something like that for all the tea in China.

I'm genuinely impressed by what she's doing.

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

Well, there's always politics ...

Just as we are aghast at the suffering in the destitute parts of the world, beings from the future would be aghast by ours ("Cancer?!"). You do what you can without causing more problems, and otherwise simply enjoy the existence that is yours.

Yes, since politicians are obviously helping matters. ;)

As I said, I understand your points, but "doing what I can without causing more problems" is far more complicated than it sounds.

But anyway, enough of that. Let's all talk some more about how great I am. ;)

[Architectonic]

MuseedesBeauxArts, I'm interested in the story behind how you came about the position that you are currently in?

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

MuseedesBeauxArts, I'm interested in the story behind how you came about the position that you are currently in?

Uh, if you think I'm getting paid, guess again. I've been interested in Third World medicine, AIDS, and all that jazz for quite a while now. So I had made inquiries with several American surgeons who work in Africa (either living there or shuttling back and forth to do continuing education), telling them that I would be interested in coming to spend a few months--particularly to an Anglophone or Francophone area that had a reasonable hospital and some AIDS programs. When I had a "yes," I quit my job (Hallelujah!), put my plans to go back to school on hold, and got on the plane. Simple as that. ;)

[Architectonic]

Wow, I didn't realize it was that simple!

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

I think I've found the analogy that I was looking for. For me, the difficult balance of being involved this way in the Third World feels like that tension in certain relationships between encouraging and enabling. Does that make sense?

[Hypnos]

As if you become a parental figure.

However, unlike a parent, you do not necessarily have the implicit authority to educate, as it were. And, indeed, one should be careful of 1st world arrogance.

<insert Star Trek moral reference>

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

As if you become a parental figure.

However, unlike a parent, you do not necessarily have the implicit authority to educate, as it were. And, indeed, one should be careful of 1st world arrogance.

<insert Star Trek moral reference>

I don't view enabling as a parental act. I can enable someone who is my friend and my peer. It's also a two-way street. But that's another discussion.

And what, pray tell, do you think I'm trying to teach? The OR nurses are basically surgeons, my public health knowledge is nonsense without cultural context, the Cameroonian doctors that I've been interacting with are brilliant. Learning is definitely the order of business.

Unfortunately, though, the instructive dynamic that you mention is present here more often than I would like. Getting out of it is a different matter altogether.

For example, I was talking with a couple of guys today about agriculture, and they started praising the US system--its technology, productivity, etc. "That's what we need here," was the take-home point. Uh, not necessarily. I doubt our agricultural system should be described as ideal. These sorts of conversations have happened again and again. "That's what we need--show us how." But our systems don't necessarily work in this framework...or even work at all.

Anyway, my point is that even if I do not claim implicit authority, it is sometimes handed to me. Perhaps it's a cultural dynamic that I don't understand. Perhaps it has become a habit in relating to Westerners because they often come with "all the answers" and try to instruct (as I have also seen far too often). I don't know.

[Hypnos]

In my experience, they're in awe of the 1st world's combination of wealth, freedom and peace.

Then, they come here and while still impressed, are not so much in awe -- the people are just as stupid (if not more naive) as over there, just more educated.

[escapeTheVoid]

Would I be remiss if I considered the above a fine example of 1st world arrogance?

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

Eeep! I'm not touching that....!

[C.J.Woolf]

In my experience, they're in awe of the 1st world's combination of wealth, freedom and peace.

Then, they come here and while still impressed, are not so much in awe -- the people are just as stupid (if not more naive) as over there, just more educated.
Yes, an advanced society does not necessarily = advanced people. Rather, it depends on the talents and efforts of a relatively few people who could make an impact on the lives of a lot of ordinary people.

(Geek alert!) It reminds me of Doctor Who's home world of Gallifrey. Gallifrey is full of self-important dullards who think they're the shit because they're Time Lords! Never mind that none of them understand the science and technology that made them Time Lords; they owe their position to the long-dead (and half-crazy) genius who invented it.

[Helios]

Eeep! I'm not touching that....!

chicken! ;)

[Hypnos]

Yes, an advanced society does not necessarily = advanced people. Rather, it depends on the talents and efforts of a relatively few people who could make an impact on the lives of a lot of ordinary people.
zOMG you're such an intellectual elitist! Go worship at the Ayn Rand altar you bourgeois bastard! :nono:

&lt;_&lt;

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

My thinking is becoming less and less abstract and theoretical the longer I'm here. It's hard to philosophize when you spend your days in the concrete world of flies and piss and blood and spit where you consistently see people nearly dying from anemia or being slowly eaten up by opportunistic infections. So as much as I wish I had more profound insights to offer, I'm coming back to the hedonism that was mentioned in the OP. Jump in and get your hands dirty doing something concrete and helpful for as long as you can take it, then walk away for a little bit and steal what pleasure you can. Because you can only meditate on things for so long before you make yourself crazy. And all the profound thoughts in the world don't really matter when the person in front of you is malnourished or in excruciating pain.

[mancroft]

At least you are doing something useful with your time.

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

At least you are doing something useful with your time.

If only it were enough.

[mancroft]

If only it were enough.

It would never be enough. No matter what you did. The problems are too intractable. Still, it is better than nothing.

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

It would never be enough. No matter what you did. The problems are too intractable. Still, it is better than nothing.

Exactly. It never will be enough. So the question becomes how much do you give? How much can you afford? Or do you simply walk away since you can't ultimately make much of a difference?

[mancroft]

Dunno.

There obviously has to be a limit. There is a limit to everything.

In the UK, the National Health Service uses 10% of GDP. You could put 100% of GDP into the NHS and there would still be stuff to do.

Just contribute what you can and still retain your solvency and sanity.

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

Dunno.

There obviously has to be a limit. There is a limit to everything.

In the UK, the National Health Service uses 10% of GDP. You could put 100% of GDP into the NHS and there would still be stuff to do.

Just contribute what you can and still retain your solvency and sanity.

You make it sound so simple. :)

[mancroft]

You make it sound so simple. :)

Just trying to make your life easier!

[Leftfield]

zOMG you're such an intellectual elitist! Go worship at the Ayn Rand altar you bourgeois bastard! :nono:

&lt;_&lt;

I disagree, almost every society relies on the very few at top. It doesn't mean that the top are the smarter or best... some may be privlege through ancestry, some may have good skills sets for particular jobs, etc.

Overall, it's all about how well the economy is run and how those people are involved in the economy (that they have jobs they have skills for, education, etc...) that ultimately decides. The top creates what they see as the most efficient society that the whole can live in... and use/request people to play their vision/game.

Maybe some motivation to go into entreprenuership... you control your own destiny and rely less on the elite...

Money, Power, Business, Government (the top 1%) ultimately controls us, but we adapt to their needs better than most countries... at least for now? :sadbanana:

[C.J.Woolf]

zOMG you're such an intellectual elitist! Go worship at the Ayn Rand altar you bourgeois bastard! :nono:

&lt;_&lt;

I disagree...
Hypnos was just yanking my chain a bit... I think. He's too much of an intellectual elitist to write "zOMG" and :nono: on the level. :D

[Leftfield]

Hypnos was just yanking my chain a bit... I think. He's too much of an intellectual elitist to write "zOMG" and :nono: on the level. :D

In regards to Hypnos and his I'm quitting at 2,500 changed to 25,000 thread... he deserves to be unappreciated as a result... I don't care how smart you are, but I try not to call out mostly everyone on this forum as worthless, weak, and irrational.

Simply put: http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=444792&postcount=15

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

I had a conversation with one of the young doctors here regarding Occidental ideas about Africa. He told me that when I go home, I'll have to make sure that people know that Africa is more than starving children and wildlife. He was teasing, but he was speaking the truth, too. Trying to get each side to break down its stereotypes (Western=wealth, Africa=starvation+safaris) is a difficult battle. Establishing mutual respect and comprehension after that is probably worse. For every one of us who is playing ambassador, there are two who play on fears and jealousies.

[mancroft]

Africa = corrupt dictators + more social problems than most people can comprehend.

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

One last bump. I'm home. And I'm reading Paul Farmer, who I might want to be when I grow up. ;)

I wish I could say that I have a clear understanding of what should be done or how to help. But I don't. I only know what some of the problems are and how many of our ideas won't work.

During my last three weeks at the hospital, I watched the organization's corruption and politics spin out of control. So now I just hope that any assistance that I can offer from here will actually get to the staff and patients who need it. I do know that there are still good and talented people there who deserve everything I can do for them.

And hopefully I can go back someday soon. The end.

[Helios]

MuseedesBeauxArts, wow, what a amazing tale for all of us; thank you! And thank you for gracing my ratty thread with your insightful thoughts and experiances. And for employing the word "Occidental".

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

MuseedesBeauxArts, wow, what a amazing tale for all of us; thank you! And thank you for gracing my ratty thread with your insightful thoughts and experiances. And for employing the word "Occidental".

No, no....thank you. ;)

(actually, I do mean that seriously--I appreciate the thread you started, the fact that you let me take it over, and the insights that everyone here lent to my time in Cameroon)

I forgot to mention that I'm working to post my photos online. It will probably take 3-5 years, but when it happens, all of you beautiful people will be the first to know. That way you can be bored by my slideshow from any location with a good internet connection!

[Geoff]

I'll just plump up the pillows in preparation for a long snooze.

(just joking, you know I'm keen to see them).

-Geoff

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

And hopefully I can go back someday soon.

*bump*

Not Cameroon this time, but a year in Ghana. I'll be revisiting a lot of this, I imagine.