Male/Female differences within MBTI type

[Elizabeth B]

The thread about females at INTPC has got me thinking about this…

I’ve noticed that ESTJs like to argue, and argue for sport. NTs can do this too. But overall, I think male T’s do this more than female T’s.

My husband, an INTP, will pick a contrary position to what he believes just to argue for sport with his Dad, an ESTJ. He likes to goad him on and watch him blow up. My MIL (ENTJ) and I will watch the argument like a tennis match, knowing what is really going on and enjoying the sport, but not participating.

I like a good reasoned debate now and then, but I generally don’t goad people on or push their buttons. Occasionally, I will say something just to annoy my Mom, an ESTJ, but I do this less and less as I mature. My brother (also INTP) delights in saying and doing things to annoy our Mom, and has not lessened this behavior as he’s aged. For example, once he found out she hates having the seat and the controls in her car changed, he’ll move them and leave them changed every opportunity he gets. Since she’s a huge E, it’s really easy to know what annoys her. She doesn’t have the ability or inclination to hide annoyances in my brother’s presence, even though she knows they will be used against her in the future.

[nottaprettygal]

I usually only argue for sport when I know that the other person isn't very informed on what they are talking about. Like your husband, I'll purposely take the opposite viewpoint (whether I believe it or not) just to prove someone wrong or give them something to think about.

I don't make this a habit though.

I do agree that males T's are more combattive though, probably as a result of simple cultural factors.

[mgb]

I actually attribute a great deal of the arguing thing to age/maturity more than I do to gender differences.

[MacGuffin]

SJs can argue for sport, but they almost always argue the position they believe in. NTs will play devil's advocate.

I think mgbradsh is correct about it being more of a function of maturity rather than gender. I do think it is more accepted for males to argue in our society, however.

[waxwing]

I am argumentative, especially with people in my family. Most of the time my mother (xsfj) says I start arguments with her. Perhaps that is true, but I think it is because I can't let go of some key point when she only wants me to be quiet. Why end the argument just for the sake of agreement or reaching some meaningless conclusion? Pointless. For example my mother has strong beliefs about drinking alcohol. She does not want anyone to drink alcohol in her house. If she were to become upset over my having a glass of wine in the house, I would not attack her personal belief, but I would try to focus on why she doesn't want me to drink in the house. Is it something to do with not trusting me? What about it (the consumption of alcohol, in general) makes her so upset? All I'm trying to do is get to the root of our disagreement. That way I can try to understand where she's coming from. Hardly ever works though.

As soon as the argument turns emotional, or when comments are taken personally, I withdraw and become afraid. It is not my intent to make personal attacks or to make someone upset. That, to me, is scary.

I play devil's advocate with some people, but not with those people who will actually think I believe what I'm arguing, and possibly hold it against me. For example, I might say to my mother: "Well, did you think of the possibility that I only did X to accomplish Y? She will immediately think that this is the actual reason I did something, and will later said, "But you said _____!"

[Zephyrus055]

SJs often make arguements that are either invalid or dependent on a value. Consequently, I can't argue with them because even putting their argument in standard form in a syllogism doesn't work!

But anyway, I think it's fun making NFs scream. I met a NF today, for example, and I thought it so fun to mess with her emotions on animal cruelty. I was like "So? So what if they suffer? All that matters is that resources are used efficiently, and a consequent of that is animal cruelty in slaughter houses. Why do you care that efficiency produces pain in animals?"

She screamed! ROFL!

Well, I like doing that to Fs in general. I don't do that to my ENFJ crush though - she can dwell in my evil thoughts later http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/smile.gif.

[mgb]

SJs often make arguements that are either invalid or dependent on a value. Consequently, I can't argue with them because even putting their argument in standard form in a syllogism doesn't work!



I'm not sure that's completely true at all.

Look at EnglshIvy. She does fine here. In fact, I'd even say she does better with syllogisms than I do. Not because I'm more SJ than her, mostly because I find syllogisms annoying and often ludacrious.

Also, a lot of NFs I know tend to be more logical than a lot of the INTPs I know.

Personally, I think you let your underdeveloped F get the best of you.

[Zephyrus055]

I'm not sure that's completely true at all.

Look at EnglshIvy. She does fine here. In fact, I'd even say she does better with syllogisms than I do. Not because I'm more SJ than her, mostly because I find syllogisms annoying and often ludacrious.

Also, a lot of NFs I know tend to be more logical than a lot of the INTPs I know.

Personally, I think you let your underdeveloped F get the best of you. Well, the main reason why a lot of SJs I know are illogical is because I get in to arguements with them where they try connecting their values or "should do list" with a practical situation. For example, they'll be like, "Once you go that route, this happens..." when there is no reasonable causal relationship. Other times they may be logical when deducing from their values, but their values have no objective source either. But in other situations, I think SJs and even Fs are very logical http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/smile.gif.

And syllogisms rule!

My underdeveloped F? Well, I just have different priorities. My priority is to find an objective source for every value, and when there isn't one, I find the value or arguement absurd. And it's also true that I like being a rabble rouser sometimes too, by saying something that's also absurd - just to get the feathers flying when there is a constricted consensus or something.

[Nighthawk]

I do agree that males T's are more combattive though, probably as a result of simple cultural factors.... or perhaps testosterone? I know I was a lot more argumentative and aggressive when I was younger and had a higher level.

[eyebyte_atWork]

I do agree that males T's are more combattive though, probably as a result of simple cultural factors.

I am more combative this week - and I am not sure why.

[FishOutOfWater]

I've found I'm a little different from some male INTPs due to cultural factors. Because I'm female, I feel a large amount of pressure to embody "feminine" qualities, such as being nurturing and in touch with my own feelings. I believe that because of those pressures, I'm more emotionally developed than the typical INTP male who is the same age as me. Again, due to cultural pressures, I'm more fashionable than the typical male INTP. I was once as uncaring about fashion, but in college I developed a great desire to learn to buy reasonably trendy clothes, wear makeup, etc. I found I simply got more respect if I dressed well.

[panda]

I was like "So? So what if they suffer? All that matters is that resources are used efficiently, and a consequent of that is animal cruelty in slaughter houses. Why do you care that efficiency produces pain in animals?"
Don't let Claverhouse hear you say that.

[mgb]

Don't let Claverhouse hear you say that.

'Cause he's an F and will cry?

[panda]

'Cause he's an F and will cry?
Not at all. (Not that there's any thing wrong with being an F or... or crying.)

I'm not really sure what the point of my post was.

[cjs55]

... or perhaps testosterone? I know I was a lot more argumentative and aggressive when I was younger and had a higher level.

Yeah, I would guess this has alot to do with it. I would guess that testosterone merging with the INTP type results in many of the more heated arguments you see around here. It seems that many are either involving members of other types, or males.

I know I can get very...competetive sometimes, when it comes to debate. Both when my personal motives are challeneged, as well as my observations. And it's a somatic reaction as well, no doubt about it.

[MistWraith]

I've found I'm a little different from some male INTPs due to cultural factors. Because I'm female, I feel a large amount of pressure to embody "feminine" qualities, such as being nurturing and in touch with my own feelings. I believe that because of those pressures, I'm more emotionally developed than the typical INTP male who is the same age as me. Again, due to cultural pressures, I'm more fashionable than the typical male INTP. I was once as uncaring about fashion, but in college I developed a great desire to learn to buy reasonably trendy clothes, wear makeup, etc. I found I simply got more respect if I dressed well.

I've found that I'm not much different from male NT's.

I notice there is a large amount of pressure to conform to "feminine" qualities, but I ignore it. I've never been one to be whatever a woman is expected to be. I'm very male-minded, to be exact. Many take me as being "rude," but the truth is, I'm pretty reserved and have not the patience for frivolousness and idle chitchat. I'm also very strong and aggressive about certain beliefs, which doesn't score me too many points with most people, either. My husband, an INTJ, said to me that I'm not what people usually expect females to be, I don't behave in ways that are expected of females, so that explains why I clash with so many people.

I like wearing make-up and dressing well. It's a bit of an ego-booster to me. Other than that, my job has to do with fashion and the media, but I like it because it allows me all the innovation, creativity, and flexibility I need.

[nottaprettygal]

... or perhaps testosterone? I know I was a lot more argumentative and aggressive when I was younger and had a higher level.

Or that. You'll find that I tend to always overlook biological explanations because I'm more familiar with the cultural ones.

[trendal]

I do agree that males T's are more combattive though, probably as a result of simple cultural factors.

All this testosterone doesn't help much, either 8O

I enjoy, quite a bit, arguing for sport. I'll take a position that isn't mine JUST to argue about it. It's fun, far more fun than I've had at any physically competitive sport.

On the other hand, I have to be careful ALL THE TIME when I decide to argue for sport. I understand (well I do NOW, anyway) that other people DON'T like to argue for sport. Some people just don't like to argue - period. I have to watch out for those people, because they are also usually the type who will get violent after I've pushed a few buttons :whistle: