Deconstructing people for the purpose of knowledge seeking?

[CosmicDust]

A question for you floyd defenders out there: Would you defend him if he baited you?
Yes. I've even done so. IMO, I wouldn't personally support banning anyone who is not a full-blooded troll. But, I won't strongly oppose banning if I don't feel I can really blame the others for their lines being crossed. For instance, someone I get along fine with was banned from board I frequent that's maybe a little more controlled for its size than this one but not the most controlled I've seen. He crossed the line big time making a homophobic slur at a well-respected gay member, and he otherwise didn't show much class or any signs of wanting to post classy or recognizably "intelligent" stuff, and since I know homophobia is a major cultural hot button I have some sympathy for the choice that the admins made in this respect. Were I an admin, I would have preferred not to ban him, unless he were voted off the island...but lots of people already had a low opinion of him anyway, so perhaps he would have been.

[coffeezombie]

if i was a bully my goal would be to mold minds. i don't think you can mold minds. i am more interested in the contents of minds... the exchange of opposing viewpoints.
That's not true. Bullies prefer to test people. The bully in the schoolyard is just testing other kids' strength. You test their intellectuality with your sarcastic comments. Nevertheless, it is bullying because you don't leave people alone when they obviously don't want to be bothered by you.

[eyebyte_atWork]

Holy shit! - I took some time off to get some stuff done and check this board tonight to find that this shit still going on. I am glad I had better things to do cause it looks like no progress has been made and thus I did not miss much. (Starting to remind me of a congressional session)

[Conan]

That's not true. Bullies prefer to test people. The bully in the schoolyard is just testing other kids' strength. You test their intellectuality with your sarcastic comments. Nevertheless, it is bullying because you don't leave people alone when they obviously don't want to be bothered by you.

i find it hard to believe that the core motivation of a bully is to "test other kids strength"

[kuranes]

well, you did ask for feedback. care to explain why you consider some members as giving feedback and others as not? could it be that you simply disagree? as well, I don't see the point of having qualifications in order to give an opinion. do I need a resume as well? references?
If you'd said "I add my vote for the "no warnings in the grey area" faction, then, no, I wouldn't have a problem with your reaction. Nor do you need any qualifications besides intelligence to get my respect.


perhaps you'd like to revisit your feeling on the floyd issue and your support of a superfluous warning.
It WASN'T superfluous, is my "revisitation".



so you're only concerned with keeping members here that you like. tell me again how personal bias is uninvolved?
You're putting words in my mouth about "keeping" only those people. As far as personal bias, I never denied it.



and she decided to stay regardless. so the problem is wot?

Well, what I thought you MIGHT gather from that is that many people coming here do NOT happen to stumble across a Nighthawk post just as they are writing us off. You see, I was giving you a little credit for INFERRING that part.




is there a shortage of members to your forum that I don't know about? why would you care that nancies are being turned away in droves (if they are )
Just because they might not be as prone to rude bahavior as you are, doesn't make them "nancies". Perhaps politeness is a concept that you have a hard time grasping. I readily admit discarding it myself when I'm talking to people who see rudeness as being so very rad.




oh, and I'm a "she", thanks.
Well, well, isn't that special. In light of what you and Floyd recommend, I will note that fact the same way I note a flyer for "10 cents off Joe Blow's dog food" I find on my porch.



It's funny. I remember noting a long time ago that there are certain people in public discourse who seem to feel their role is best shown by criticizing others, but not really advancing much in the way of opinions of a constructive nature. There's certainly a minor role for such people on internet boards also. The "devil's advocate" etc. They sometimes take oh so thrilling names like "Acid Dagger" etc. If you are such a person, Slider, I can at least applaud you for having an original name.

I remember the first time I noticed you. Here was a new name. Your avatar at the time was a man playing guitar, as I recall. What was I doing? We were conversing about something called "The Creativity Project" I think. Ape the Dog had come up with the initiative. ( It's too bad we didn't go further with that, Ape, as it was a good idea ) Ape, Me ,Waxwing, Meshou and I'm not sure who else.

Hold on! Here's an new voice! Someone named "Slider". "Must be a new member!" I was happy because each new member provides the possibility of great new additions to our board. Maybe even a new friend. ( This is one reason why I look to such matters as the overall appearance and integrity of our board. )

But it looked to me that you were not interested in adding to our Creativity Project - just questioning the infrastructure basics of it. Whether you were hooked up to your "stupidity IV line" or whether you just couldn't grasp it, naturally I'll maybe never know. I quickly ( wrongly ? tell me people ) decided that you must be one of these "naysayer" types. The "Creativity Project's" infrastructure was pretty simple, really. "YOU post a story and then I'LL post one" was the gist of it, as I recall. We spoke of giving a little criticism/reaction of what each preceding person had just read also. Simple enough concept, no? Oh, but not for "Slider". It had to be "deconstructed" or whatever.

Y'know what? I was pleased to see that another member, who I was not terribly familiar with at that time, decide to help us filter out your static. Meshou. She tore you a new one, basically. Without resorting to crudities.

I started noticing her, and seeing the tough situations she'd been through and learned from. Even though her spelling was off, I started to admire her. I could see what Hustler liked about her too. This was not just because she is female, as Floyd implies; with posts which very much characterize the objections to him of this entire thread. Meshou is not the least interested in me as a man, but I can still admire her, and I do.

I remember a thread where Floyd taunted Meshou, and said, paraphrasing, "I should run a poll asking how many people think you're insecure etc. " and called her some names. I had read this thread long after it had actually happened, you understand. Meshou brushed him off. I don't remember exactly how. But I wished she had called his bluff. As long as there was an option in the poll about Floyd's own insecurity. His need to keep confronting outspoken females. I was pretty sure how the poll would have come out. Not in Floyd's favor. And not because there's all these male voters that are hoping to nail Meshou, but because Floyd is objectionable.

Anyway, "Slider" I'm not sure if you're one of these kind of posters mentioned in previous paragraphs that I dislike or not. Maybe you were drunk when you typed the one post. I'm drinking myself tonight, and God knows what I'll get up to. If you weren't drunk then I'm assuming that you were hoping to provoke me. Hoping that I would cuss at you in my response. And then you and other "hop on the trendy" types could say "Isn't this Mod breaking his own RULES?" etc. Maybe i'll regret saying this but, y'know . . .why don't you just shove it ALL right up your . . . . zeitgeist.


;P

[coffeezombie]

i find it hard to believe that the core motivation of a bully is to "test other kids strength"
I didn't say that it was their core motivation. I am saying that is what they do in order to decide who to bully and who to leave alone. Evidently certain people have not properly kicked Floyd's ass and thus he continues to "bully" them. That is my point.

[Claverhouse]

i find it hard to believe that the core motivation of a bully is to "test other kids strength" Yes. I'd think the core motivation is to cause pain, and the testing is merely to see what comeback if any. Seeing an older boy giving some small kid a Chinese Burn* doesn't do wonders for your future respect for humanity.

Not that I think floyd is a bully in that or any other sense: but [deconstructing] he wants to be thought of as a cold dissector reaching for truth through breaking people into little pieces and examining the poor naked quivering soul left.

In the same way, coffeezombie's mention of wife-beaters was extremely unfair; I am sure that floyd would disdain cruelty: he'd be the family-man who unwittingly drives his children into nervous breakdowns though unmeant unkindness, ''You, who'd ever want you ?' he'd tell his daughter, 'Look at yourself: you're fat and plain: you're worthless; all you're fit for is scrubbing floors'. And to his son: "You're a disappointment: you've always been a disappointment to us." just frankly pointing out the flaws as he calls them. And watching their reactions with some satisfaction.


Claverhouse http://intpcentral.com/forums/images/smilies/ninja.gif


* You take the arm and bend it over knuckles towards the small of the back, then lift it up so.

[coffeezombie]

In the same way, coffeezombie's mention of wife-beaters was extremely unfair; I am sure that floyd would disdain cruelty: he'd be the family-man who unwittingly drives his children into nervous breakdowns though unmeant unkindness, http://intpcentral.com/forums/images/smilies/ninja.gif

Luckily, Floyd with a family will always be an exercise in imagination and not one in reality. At least that's the way it seems with the way he acts on here.

[eyebyte_atWork]

In the same way, coffeezombie's mention of wife-beaters was extremely unfair; I am sure that floyd would disdain cruelty: he'd be the family-man who unwittingly drives his children into nervous breakdowns though unmeant unkindness,



He'd have to get a woman first - and if he's like this in person - I suspect that I could win a few bets on the outcomes.

Excuse me - I am just deconstructing.

[Rajah]

i am not interested in bending the board to my preferences (minds don't change)? Isn't this thread theoretically about "deconstructing people for the purpose of knowledge seeking"? If minds don't change, and therefore knowledge-seeking is irrelevant or moot, then what possible rationale can you put forth for your "deconstruction" of people (which I understand to be tearing them apart)?

[kuranes]

Stating my opinion. For as many times as I see fit. Is there a problem there?

None whatsoever. Stand out there in front of the library all year waving your little "Free Speech" flag if that's what turns you on, dear. I mentioned scolding that was unnecessary because it struck me that you were not covering any new ground with me, by resurrecting things we'd just discussed. But feel free to bring these things up again and again to your little heart's content. It's your RIGHT to do so, after all. Don't worry. You're not even close to getting a warning. OOOPs ! Is that a problem?

[mgb]

I totally agree with Rajah. This thread is a bit of a let down from the misleading title.

Has anyone ever gone back and read this thread? It's retarded. That seems to happening a lot here lately.

As for floyd, he totally deserved to get a warning in my opinion. But then, I just plain don't like him. Mostly when I read his posts, whether they are directed at me or not I want to knock his teeth out with a hammer. So having him on ignore works pretty well. I kind of thought that his little thing with nottaprettygal was just playing around and that they were both in on it. Since it's not, I'm doubly glad he's on ignore. I find that really annoying.

I think s0523's pig tails comment was pretty astute. But then, she's pretty astute. It's funny how someone being extremely infantile can write it off her as just being really "T". I find the people that are the considered to be the most "T" here are coincidentally also the most emotionally volitile, hence this entire thread. This really isn't about anything but validation of emotions, which floyd obviously has trouble displaying. So he wraps up his emotions in a vail of objectivity, at the core there is nothing objective at all. Maybe he'll dupe a few people and they'll jump on his bandwagon, or worse bait a few people into a debate on some unrelated subject like freedom of speech, but mostly it's just a pathetic attempt to lash out at his accusers.

But that's just me. I realize I'm far from perfect and have probably even done everything floyd is doing here in one way or another, but since I try not to as much now it's fun to judge someone else for doing it.

[Vagabond]

None whatsoever. Stand out there in front of the library all year waving your little "Free Speech" flag if that's what turns you on, dear. I mentioned scolding that was unnecessary because it struck me that you were not covering any new ground with me, by resurrecting things we'd just discussed. But feel free to bring these things up again and again to your little heart's content. It's your RIGHT to do so, after all. Don't worry. You're not even close to getting a warning. OOOPs ! Is that a problem? Oh man I give up. Think what you want, but bother to read what you comment on before you do, or the joke's on you. Or don't. Who the fuck cares, I guess.

[eyebyte_atWork]

... I realize I'm far from perfect and have probably even done everything floyd is doing here in one way or another....


Yes - but I doubt that you did these things on purpose. Every one can make mistakes and do things poorly - no problems there - but is that what really is at issue?? I think not - It has more to do with someone crying over someone else checking that person after they went too far with something they were doing.

[kuranes]

I can be combative myself. And indeed this thread has caused me to reflexively look at that.

It's funny - there are members like Hypnos and Architectonic who are basically skeptics, too. Nor am I a favorite of theirs. But at least they conduct themselves with class.

It's hard to describe the difference to people. As Mods we are looking at little things like this frequently. Others may miss these details, not being in a position to need to notice them.

We do not have a super-duper "Mod retrieval system" for old quotes from posts long gone. You'll have to take our word for remembering things, if you would.

Edit - Vagabond conducts herself with class also. We apparently agree to disagree on some things here. Frankly I'm not sure what the fight is about. Come down to K's Lounge in a couple days and we can have a drink, and talk about it.

I understand your questions about a democratic vote etc. I was not in a position to comment on that. I'm new to what I'm doing in Mgt. Claverhouse is Sr. Moderator and I assume he knows "what time it is" on that subject. It might have seemed I was dodging the subject, but I was just supporting the members of my team.

[Conan]

i think a reason i enjoy floyd as a poster is that i sometimes see him as a sort of INTP id

[kuranes]

Well, he'll be around for a while. He wasn't banned. So you'll have plenty of occasions to enjoy the Floydster.

Hopefully Floyd will modify himself somewhat during the course of that time. He says he doesn't know what people are objecting to etc. but he does. He's too smart not to. In order to "save face" he will continue this pretence. But it's likely that he will modify himself that little bit, and so we will not need to continue this argument. Of course he would never admit to having done so. So, if you like him, don't mention this.

[floyd]

Well, he'll be around for a while. He wasn't banned. So you'll have plenty of occasions to enjoy the Floydster.

Hopefully Floyd will modify himself somewhat during the course of that time. He says he doesn't know what peoiple are objecting to etc. but he does. He's too smart not to. In order to "save face" he will continue this pretence. But it's likely that he will modify himself that little bit, and so we will not need to continue this argument. Of course he would never admit to having done so. So, if you like him, don't mention this.

if most people here think i should be more sensitive than i will be or i won't post here. if most people don't care, maybe you should modify your position... or are you concerned with saving face?

[kuranes]

if most people here think i should be more sensitive than i will be

There you have it. A man of the people.

As LBJ once said "I must hurry to catch up with my people, for I am their leader."

[floyd]

There you have it. A man of the people.

As LBJ once said "I must hurry to catch up with my people, for I am their leader."

you left out "or i won't post here"... i don't know if i can tolerate pretending to be nicer. maybe avoiding the possibility of offending someone is as hard for me as it is for you make a convincing case for your stupid warning.

thus far though i don't get the impression that most intps here support your desire for imposing greater sensitivity. so until then fuck your sensitivity demands kuranes.

[C.J.Woolf]

i think a reason i enjoy floyd as a poster is that i sometimes see him as a sort of INTP id
True. I also see him as a "before" picture.

[floyd]

the after pictures are all the same

http://cac.mcgill.ca/cac/bland/building/pictures/full/12-58.jpg

[kuranes]

I looked at the poll results about problems people actually have with this site on "censorship" vs. your little "Is Floyd being slapped around?" poll. Beg to differ.

[Sally]

That is a nice tombstone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I especially like the empty field behind it.

[C.J.Woolf]

the after pictures are all the same

http://cac.mcgill.ca/cac/bland/building/pictures/full/12-58.jpg
Always wit' the negative waves, Moriarty.

Okay, it's the picture between "before" and "hereafter" that counts.

Sheesh.




(Touche.)

[floyd]

I looked at the poll results about problems people actually have with this site on "censorship" vs. your little "Is Floyd being slapped around?" poll. Beg to differ.

that censorship poll is b.s....

explain to me how a poll with these two options

Yes; I have been censored or I must self-censor.
No; I can say what I want to say here.

where everyone votes no validates or relates to your censor behavior towards me? just because they vote no does not mean they support everyone of your censoring decisions. they just don't think you will censor them.

it is about as telling as the gun control poll i posted...

Have liberal gun laws negatively impacted you?

Yes; I have been shot or my baby's momma has.
No; I have not been shot.

[panda]

We do not have a super-duper "Mod retrieval system" for old quotes from posts long gone. You'll have to take our word for remembering things, if you would.
It's quite simple to (quickly) locate old posts, actually. Not saying you need to do this, just that it's fairly easy.

[kuranes]

I think "I can say what I want to here" is pretty clear. See, that's where you and your convoluted "T" reservations lose me. You're saying that you CAN'T say what you want without falling afoul of stilted rules. Looks to me like most people who've voted so far don't think they're so stilted.

Anyways, Floydster, I gotta get on to other things here tonight besides your "bio-informing" ( LOL ) thread here. You're not that far off from acceptable behavior. Why not just cool it on a couple small areas of difference and be done with this circus? Later.

[floyd]

whatever kuranes, spin away.

[kuranes]

It's quite simple to (quickly) locate old posts, actually. Not saying you need to do this, just that it's fairly easy.

I tried looking for some of the other ones in question last night. Unless you know certain key words it is NOT easy. Unless you know something I don't. I don't remember the title of the thread, for example. Feel free to dig around. This warning was triggered specifically by some recent events which are referenced in this thread itself. Some of the posts leading up to all of this are milder ( some are not ) , and it is not the best use of my time to find them.

[panda]

I tried looking for some of the other ones in question last night. Unless you know certain key words it is NOT easy. Unless you know something I don't. I don't remember the title of the thread, for example. Feel free to dig around. This warning was triggered specifically by some recent events which are referenced in this thread itself. Some of the posts leading up to all of this are milder ( some are not ) , and it is not the best use of my time to find them.
Sure, I'm not suggesting you should spend your time that way. But it's easy (and fairly fast) to search through all of the posts someone has made.

I've read all of floyd's posts, for example (I have no life).

[Slider]

If you'd said "I add my vote for the "no warnings in the grey area" faction, then, no, I wouldn't have a problem with your reaction. Nor do you need any qualifications besides intelligence to get my respect.

why should I temper my style for you? if you can't understand it, it's not my fault. it's really quite obvious.



You're putting words in my mouth about "keeping" only those people.

no. you said it. well, you wrote it, anyway. even the moderators can't change wot you posted, you should know that.



Well, what I thought you MIGHT gather from that is that many people coming here do NOT happen to stumble across a Nighthawk post just as they are writing us off. You see, I was giving you a little credit for INFERRING that part.

no, I didn't infer that stumbling across a post by nighthawk would make the entire board redeemable. this is an isolated incident, and as such, cannot be used as a representative approximation.



Just because they might not be as prone to rude bahavior as you are, doesn't make them "nancies".

no, being unable to handle truth does, however. wot you call rudeness I simply call honesty without the niceties. oh sure, sometimes I can get a wee carried away - like with the Stupid IV thing, but that's just cos you're such a fun guy to converse with, kuranes. (And it was funny, you must admit . .) I can be polite, and indeed often am, when I feel like it. When I don't feel like it, I'm not. That would be fake.




I remember the first time I noticed you. Here was a new name. Your avatar at the time was a man playing guitar, as I recall. What was I doing? We were conversing about something called "The Creativity Project" I think.

perhaps you should work on your noticing skills. I'm infinitely more intriguing than 99% people registered on this board.

I'm not a new member. And while I've 'been here' awhile, I don't consider myself part of the board.


But it looked to me that you were not interested in adding to our Creativity Project - just questioning the infrastructure basics of it.

excellent reasoning skills - I stated this, infact. why I chose not to participate is unimportant.


Y'know what? I was pleased to see that another member, who I was not terribly familiar with at that time, decide to help us filter out your static. Meshou. She tore you a new one, basically. Without resorting to crudities.

lol. she "tore me a new one"? I just remember a lot of overreacting on her part.


I started noticing her, and seeing the tough situations she'd been through and learned from. Even though her spelling was off, I started to admire her. I could see what Hustler liked about her too. This was not just because she is female, as Floyd implies; with posts which very much characterize the objections to him of this entire thread. Meshou is not the least interested in me as a man, but I can still admire her, and I do.

I remember a thread where Floyd taunted Meshou, and said, paraphrasing, "I should run a poll asking how many people think you're insecure etc. " and called her some names. I had read this thread long after it had actually happened, you understand. Meshou brushed him off. I don't remember exactly how. But I wished she had called his bluff. As long as there was an option in the poll about Floyd's own insecurity. His need to keep confronting outspoken females. I was pretty sure how the poll would have come out. Not in Floyd's favor. And not because there's all these male voters that are hoping to nail Meshou, but because Floyd is objectionable.

it's really great that you hero-worship Meshou, but wot, exactly, does this have to do with me and the discussion at hand?


Anyway, "Slider"

is there a reason you keep quoting my name?


I'm not sure if you're one of these kind of posters mentioned in previous paragraphs that I dislike or not. Maybe you were drunk when you typed the one post. I'm drinking myself tonight, and God knows what I'll get up to. If you weren't drunk then I'm assuming that you were hoping to provoke me. Hoping that I would cuss at you in my response. And then you and other "hop on the trendy" types could say "Isn't this Mod breaking his own RULES?" etc. Maybe i'll regret saying this but, y'know . . .why don't you just shove it ALL right up your . . . . zeitgeist.

well, you're obviously drinking cos this makes no sense.

if you want to believe I was drunk/trying to provoke you simply because I disagreed with you, fine. wotever lights yer fire. but you're wrong.

[floyd]

if slider is a bitch, so is meshou. slider your error is not posting any photos of yourself here or implying that you were an attractive female... really it's a requirement if you expect special female treatment from the desperate male club.

[Slider]

when did I imply that I wanted special treatment?

[floyd]

sarcasm

[Slider]

noted: deras jokes.

[kuranes]

I miss the earth. I miss my wife.
It's lonely out in space
On such a timeless flight
And I think it's gonna be a long long time . . . . . .
Rocket man!
*cool slide guitar*

Floyd - You're going to have to start bumping these threads, because people are finally starting to get bored with this shit. You need to come up with something new. What sort of corruption is Kuranes up to now?

[ApeTheDog]

Ape, I think you're brilliant and I'm very receptive to your ideas, but I really don't get what having a rotating group of mods will accomplish. I mean, the mods are around to handle problems on the board, and they've graciously taken their time to do so. They've been selected because people -- the admins? -- recognized they'd do a fair job. I don't see a need for rotating the position; it seems to me the mods are doing a great job. I frankly don't care who's a mod and who's not, as is painfully obvious by my relative ignorance of the INTPC hierarchy. Don't care. Really don't care.

I've seen moderators on other boards become grown into a moderator frame of mind, and saw signs of this happening here too. Arguments, not listening to each others position. I think think this way it can be avoided. Not sure if it's practically possible to do, though. I would actually prefer that moderators were around, but nobody simply knew who they were. No complaining, no taking things personal, no authority.

I find it hard to think of Kuranes as somebody who is not a moderator. I treat him with more respect than I would someone who isn't a mod - and I think that is neither fun for me, nor him. (That is why I just told him he has alzheimer on another thread)

Having to defend their positions, and being alone in holding them - can lead to a form of arrogance. The moderator has to do his job - and sometimes he has to make compromises and do things he doesn't really stand behind, just to solve a problem. Then when people push him and tell him he made a mistake in this case, he will defend his position, despite not being entirely in favor of it, because he knows he was right to do what he did in order to solve things. But others don't see it that way. They see only what went wrong.

Now if, I think, a person stays (is forced) for too long in that: 'you guys don't know what moderating is like, what I have to do, and I don't think what I did was a mistakes' frame of mind - they will inevitably become arrogant and stop being receptive when people tell them they do something wrong. That's something I think you in any system where there is a ruling class.

To avoid that, I think the moderators should be rotated, so they can take a break and regain their senses.

[Ivy]

i find it hard to believe that the core motivation of a bully is to "test other kids strength"

Same here, and I find it equally hard to believe that the core motivation of a bully is to "mold minds." I think the core motivation of a bully is to feel like a big man.

Acourse the thread has probably moved on from this, but I can't help it that I slept last night. :)

[Slider]

I miss the earth. I miss my wife.
It's lonely out in space
On such a timeless flight
And I think it's gonna be a long long time . . . . . .
Rocket man!
*cool slide guitar*

Floyd - You're going to have to start bumping these threads, because people are finally starting to get bored with this shit. You need to come up with something new. What sort of corruption is Kuranes up to now?


why would you need to respond about how boring it is? avoiding real questions, it seems . . .

[Rajah]

Floyd, I've given some thought about what is bothering me about all of this.

You're like a guy who's going around poking people with a big stick. Some people have told you, "Hey, stop poking me with a stick." Now, you're surprised because you never stopped bullying those people, and they've asked the mods to intervene. Your justification for continuing to poke people with a stick is that other people on this board -- who are not targets of your attacks -- are fine with your bullying. And these targets are just too sensitive.

How can you find it acceptable for these targets to bend to your behavior, while it's somehow inconceivable for your behavior to bend to these targets? Nobody is trying to derail your speaking the truth or your opinion. There are just better ways of expressing it without ruffling too many feathers. If you deliberately speak to ruffle feathers, then you can't be surprised when people get all pissed off and call you on it -- seriously, I don't think you can expect anything else. Your targets are going to get up and poke back.

I was reading Anne Lamott's Bird by Bird today, and a quote jumped out at me: "[Y]ou don't always have to chope with the sword of truth. You can point with it too." I like that.

[Rajah]

I've seen moderators on other boards become grown into a moderator frame of mind, and saw signs of this happening here too. Arguments, not listening to each others position. I think think this way it can be avoided. Not sure if it's practically possible to do, though. I would actually prefer that moderators were around, but nobody simply knew who they were. No complaining, no taking things personal, no authority.

I find it hard to think of Kuranes as somebody who is not a moderator. I treat him with more respect than I would someone who isn't a mod - and I think that is neither fun for me, nor him. (That is why I just told him he has alzheimer on another thread)Okay, I can see your point. Maybe this speaks more to me -- I don't really think of kuranes as a "moderator" -- I just think of him as kuranes. I don't alter the way I speak, or what I say, just because it's directed to kuranes. In fact, I don't even really know who the mods and admins are on this board. I don't give the hierarchy much thought other than in instances like this where someone was questioned why they're doing something. Other than that, it's more like, "The board's up. Cool." So that's why this whole idea of regs is kind of foreign to me. I probably just don't care enough to dwell on it.

[kuranes]

why would you need to respond about how boring it is? avoiding real questions, it seems . . .

I certainly don't consider most of yours to be very real questions. You're just looking for a fight. For example, I use the example of a person who came here and was very turned off by all the arguments and cussing ( probably posted by Shai Gar at the time ) but who happened by chance to see a Nighthawk post, and liked it well enough that she decided to stay. You can only focus ( in your first rebuttal ) on the fact that she ultimately DID stay. When I point out that she might easily have missed Nighthawk's post, you respond with what reads to me as gibberish. Essentially brushing the remark aside by saying it's beside the point, or whatever. Or that it's just too bad that some can't handle the "truth". How do you know how often people visit us and then go away turned off? Yet you say this kind of thing is "isolated". The other side of the coin is people who were members but decided to drop out. your response to all this? Blah Blah. The Slider book of Rules again.

Flail away.

[floyd]

rajah - the problem with your argument is that nobody i supposedly argued with asked the mods to intervene, at least based on what the mods have said (correct me if i am wrong mods). this bullying and poking with a stick stuff i think is hyperbole. if you can't post examples/threads of my insensitive behavior, don't bother commenting because i think you are not presenting an accurate picture.

[Nighthawk]

Now if, I think, a person stays (is forced) for too long in that: 'you guys don't know what moderating is like, what I have to do, and I don't think what I did was a mistakes' frame of mind - they will inevitably become arrogant and stop being receptive when people tell them they do something wrong. That's something I think you in any system where there is a ruling class.

So ... in essence ... you start believing your own bullshit the longer you are in a position of power. I've found that to be true ... both through observation of others and through personal experience of my own when in positions of power.

[kuranes]

Floyd - Mac posted one of them. Others you admitted to at the beginning of the thread. So we'll leave it at those as the actual triggers. It's quite true that there are yet still others, going back a ways. We're not obliged to dig them all up for you. Nor do we have to discuss who might be privately complaining about you. Nor do we need to wait for such a complaint to act, as you surmised.

[ApeTheDog]

So ... in essence ... you start believing your own bullshit the longer you are in a position of power. I've found that to be true ... both through observation of others and through personal experience of my own when in positions of power.

Yeah, basically, because lesser people tell you you're talking bullshit anymore when you're in power. Or they'll think they're the ones who make mistakes.

[floyd]

Mac posted one of them. Others you admitted to at the beginning of the thread. So we'll leave it at those as the actual triggers. It's quite true that there are yet still others, going back a ways. We're not obliged to dig them all up for you. Nor do we have to discuss who might be privately complaining about you. Nor do we need to wait for such a complaint to act, as you surmised.

mac said he deleted that post on his own. i said i may have gone to far with NPG after she said on this thread she was bothered but also admitted she was playing it off. that was a speculative hindsight opinion. if someone says they drank too much last night, it's not an invitation for others to determine how much they drink in the future. i don't agree with the lines you are attempting to draw. i think relevant personal criticism is acceptable. if meshou wants to go off on rednecks here, she should be able to handle criticism of herself. you of course are free to criticize me. i don't mind criticism as you have implied, i mind the questionably selective restriction of it.

[Claverhouse]

I've seen moderators on other boards become grown into a moderator frame of mind, and saw signs of this happening here too. Arguments, not listening to each others position. I think think this way it can be avoided. Not sure if it's practically possible to do, though. I would actually prefer that moderators were around, but nobody simply knew who they were. No complaining, no taking things personal, no authority. I'm pretty sure most people don't know who we are: that's why I'm grateful there isn't any label saying moderator or admin attached to the positions. A mod here is just another member posting as normal. The only way we come off as mods is when we say something as mods, such as moving a thread. ( In which case people have a right to know it's been moved and why. )


I find it hard to think of Kuranes as somebody who is not a moderator. I treat him with more respect than I would someone who isn't a mod - and I think that is neither fun for me, nor him. (That is why I just told him he has alzheimer on another thread) This is totally alien to me: mods/admins don't deserve any respect from their positions, anymore than a policeman does. Even if one doesn't respect a policeman for just being in the force, or as a person, they still have the right to issue speeding tickets, and you take them.


Having to defend their positions, and being alone in holding them - can lead to a form of arrogance. The moderator has to do his job - and sometimes he has to make compromises and do things he doesn't really stand behind, just to solve a problem. Then when people push him and tell him he made a mistake in this case, he will defend his position, despite not being entirely in favor of it, because he knows he was right to do what he did in order to solve things. But others don't see it that way. They see only what went wrong. What went wrong here ? floyd was given a warning: he has the right to whinge about it. Only if you think no-one should be given warnings at all can you say something's wrong; or if you think that floyd shouldn't have been given this one. But whichever mods/admins were selected the result would be the same so long as warnings/bannings are practiced on a board.


Now if, I think, a person stays (is forced) for too long in that: 'you guys don't know what moderating is like, what I have to do, and I don't think what I did was a mistakes' frame of mind - they will inevitably become arrogant and stop being receptive when people tell them they do something wrong. That's something I think you in any system where there is a ruling class. Actually there is very little to do as a moderator ( but a very steep learning curve ); but your point is invalid: you are arguing that in this case of floyd the mods/admins made a mistake --- and beforehand all the mods and most of the admins discussed and fully agreed that floyd should be warned --- suppose a/ they didn't make a mistake: why should they bow to pressure to rescind the warning ? or b/ they did make a mistake: what is there to make them change their mind if they think they acted correctly ? and what has it got to do with how long they've been mods/admins: they have to make the same decision even if they're elected once a week.

My reasons for wanting a lot more mods is simple: there's far too much to cover and we miss a lot of things; and having a small number of mods/admins creates a them/us situation. Nothing to do with doing it too long ( I've only been a mod for about 9 months ).


To avoid that, I think the moderators should be rotated, so they can take a break and regain their senses. I think this is rubbish, but obviously I have an interest here, so I'd rather offer arguments on a thread devoted to moderation issues; after all this thread is not about me, and it's not about you, and it's not about moderation: it's about floyd and his broken heart.

( Although I'd like to know for future reference where you stand on admins, should they be rotated ? Seriously. After all, if your arguments of jaded corruption are true, these admins have been in power since soon after intpcentral started, whereas mods have all been short-lived here. )


Claverhouse http://intpcentral.com/forums/images/smilies/ninja.gif

[Slider]

deras is wrong about it being a conflict of t/f. I'm probably more effey than some of the whiners here. the problem is, essentially, that this board is too social. most of the time nauseatingly social, in fact.

[ApeTheDog]

I'm pretty sure most people don't know who we are: that's why I'm grateful there isn't any label saying moderator or admin attached to the positions. A mod here is just another member posting as normal. The only way we come off as mods is when we say something as mods, such as moving a thread. ( In which case people have a right to know it's been moved and why. )

You're right. I don't see any problems going on in this forum. This whole idea of mine is based, actually, on my experiences on another forum, full of immature males, where there was a caste of incredibly stupid, but incredibly tenacious moderators. Perhaps it is the nature of my anxious personality to envision problems where none are? I don't know why I do this - if I did, well, I probably wouldn't. This whole debate, for me, is purely theoretical and not based on anything I actually see going on.


This is totally alien to me: mods/admins don't deserve any respect from their positions, anymore than a policeman does. Even if one doesn't respect a policeman for just being in the force, or as a person, they still have the right to issue speeding tickets, and you take them.

I was underestimating the intellectual maturity of the people here - trying to explain things by adopting an alien mindframe. I do not personally think they deserve any respect from their positions - but I know that in the real world, they are often given this respect by others regardlessly.


What went wrong here ? floyd was given a warning: he has the right to whinge about it. Only if you think no-one should be given warnings at all can you say something's wrong; or if you think that floyd shouldn't have been given this one. But whichever mods/admins were selected the result would be the same so long as warnings/bannings are practiced on a board.

Nothing is wrong.


Actually there is very little to do as a moderator ( but a very steep learning curve ); but your point is invalid: you are arguing that in this case of floyd the mods/admins made a mistake --- and beforehand all the mods and most of the admins discussed and fully agreed that floyd should be warned --- suppose a/ they didn't make a mistake: why should they bow to pressure to rescind the warning ? or b/ they did make a mistake: what is there to make them change their mind if they think they acted correctly ? and what has it got to do with how long they've been mods/admins: they have to make the same decision even if they're elected once a week.

Basically, what I'm doing here is explaining what I learnt on that other forum, with the thick, but very stubborn moderators. I should probably have not done so in this thread.


I think this is rubbish, but obviously I have an interest here, so I'd rather offer arguments on a thread devoted to moderation issues; after all this thread is not about me, and it's not about you, and it's not about moderation: it's about floyd and his broken heart.

Yeah, and for the record, I think floyd is totally overreacting. I think I just kind of took that as a given, and decided to go deeper into what he says regardlessly - even if it's wrong - to understand it better. I always like to delve into things I shouldn't.


( Although I'd like to know for future reference where you stand on admins, should they be rotated ? Seriously. After all, if your arguments of jaded corruption are true, these admins have been in power since soon after intpcentral started, whereas mods have all been short-lived here. )

I do not think there are any problems with the moderators or admins here. I think this is a non-issue, and that things are going perfect here. I never even noticed there was any moderating going on here, which sounds like a really good thing to me.

I think I should keep my theories in the more theoretic threads next time, or take up a stand - and not do one in a thread that requires the other.

[MacGuffin]

Perhaps it is the nature of my anxious personality to envision problems where none are? I don't know why I do this - if I did, well, I probably wouldn't. This whole debate, for me, is purely theoretical and not based on anything I actually see going on. That is what sparked this on the mod/admin side. There wasn't really a problem yet, but we could see it coming and tried to head it off with a warning.

[Ivy]

That is what sparked this on the mod/admin side. There wasn't really a problem yet, but we could see it coming and tried to head it off with a warning.

Little did you know...

[ApeTheDog]

That is what sparked this on the mod/admin side. There wasn't really a problem yet, but we could see it coming and tried to head it off with a warning.

I see how that was a good decision. Better to warn floyd before he goes too far. Powerful good stuff.

I suppose the best thing to do is to not blow this problem out of proportions any further then, and just casually carry on doing what we were doing.

*listens to music and obliviously goes to play some helicopter on the arcade page*

[Master O]

Floyd,
I personally don't have anything against you, but I haven't been here that long either.
Seriously though, from my point of view this forum seems very tolerant and relaxed about people stating their points of view. Given that, I surmise that if the moderators needed to speak to you, or warn you, whatever they did, then they felt it was for a good reason. I think they are trying to do what they think is best for the forum as a whole.
Now while you may disagree with things, utimately nobody can tell you what to do or to act differently. They can however ban you if they feel your "style" is not in the best interest for the forum as a whole. So you have a choice in the matter, you may not like the choices, but you do have them.
Frankly, I would think getting reactions out of people by putting them on the defensive would get a bit boring after a while, as well as the easiest way to get a reaction. You seem intelligent enough to be able to step up to the challenge of finding a less offensive, and perhaps more creative means of interacting with people.
As I stated, I have not been here that long, so though I have not personally been able to witness it, you have been accused of most often going after woman. Something which you have not seemed to deny.

I do not know you well enough to know if this is the truth or you were joking.
While I could get into another whole discussion about this, I will try to be brief.
Assuming there is some truth in this quote, it would appear , at least to me, that you view "crippled old woman" as weak. So there is something about being weak that triggers something in you. If I am wrong about that, then there is something else it evokes in you.
Why?
I am perplexed, with your thirst for knowledge, why have you not turned your quest inward. Try dissecting yourself. You have much more to gain. I know, I have been there. oh brother.... :rolleyes2

[Hustler]

PLACE-HOLDER FOR CLASSIC STATUS