Black (African Descent) Communities

[Sally]

You know... I still have problems using the word "black." After that one time when it was emphasized to me, all the negative connotations... But after living abroad, where they don't say African-whatever, and after knowing people from Africa who aren't black..... And it seems a silly distinction, anyhow - the color of a person's skin. But anyway....

(Wow I think that might be the first time I've digressed BEFORE I even started to say anything.)

So. Communities. I recently moved from the South to the West Coast, and it's thrown into sharper focus something I've always been aware of: It sucks to be black in the south.

And I don't just mean the racism. I mean the peer pressure.

There is a huge, huge, huge stigma against "acting white." And I could always understand it - the anger, the bitterness, the hopelessness. But then, I'm not black. I was never - or rarely - personally affected by the social calls to order that would erupt whenever someone tried to take a class seriously or use correct ("white") grammar.

Intellectualism was completely absent from the peer groups I witnessed but was never a part of.

I could probably make observations about Asian kids, or preps, or any of the other cliques at school... But I grew up in the south. The black element was the most populous and yet almost totally absent from ... from just the classes I was in. Ghetto culture prevailed - and not that it doesn't have its own, plusses, but:

When we couldn't hire any of the black girls who applied for a job at work because, though many of them had all the proper skills and obvious intelligence, not a one of them had the grammar and enunciation sufficient to conduct high-level business over the phone.

Apparently it's getting better. There are many more black kids taking high-level classes in my sister's year (same high school I went to). But I still can't imagine what it would have been like to me me - introverted, curious, queer and nerdy and weird. And black. In the south.

Intellectualism, again - what I see predominantly in the black culture on the West Coast - just didn't exist where I'm from.

I mean, it makes me really sad and angry. I went to a 90% black elemetary school. I grew up enundated with white guilt and civil rights and almost all my early heroes were black. And I am white. Why the hell did that message not sink in to any of my classmates? What happened to all those black girls who had the same teachers I did?!?!? Who received all the same encouragement (in school)? Family, peers, society, pushing in one direction and then another... I went into prep programs for college and career and then only ran into them when they were working behind counters.

And not to disparage working class or poor grammar or anger or bitterness or laziness or laughter or whatever - but when that is the only choice. Outside of a sports scholarship. In the south.

........Thoughts?

[Hustler]

And not to disparage working class or poor grammar or anger or bitterness or laziness or laughter or whatever - but when that is the only choice. Outside of a sports scholarship. In the south.

I grew up in the South. There was this black guy in one of my classes in high school who worked at Taco Bell. He lived in the ghetto. His grammar wasn't all that great back then and he occasionally slept in class. He's a lawyer now. Apparently, he didn't think the aforementioned options you listed were his only choices.

[Sally]

I grew up in the South. There was this black guy in one of my classes in high school who worked at Taco Bell. He lived in the ghetto. His grammar wasn't all that great back then and he occasionally slept in class. He's a lawyer now. Apparently, he didn't think the aforementioned options you listed were his only choices.

Ok. Good for him. Is he happy? Did he have much conflict along the way?

[lexiphanic]

There is a huge, huge, huge stigma against "acting white." And I could always understand it - the anger, the bitterness, the hopelessness. But then, I'm not black. I was never - or rarely - personally affected by the social calls to order that would erupt whenever someone tried to take a class seriously or use correct ("white") grammar.

Damn black racists.

[Sally]

Damn black racists.

Very vocally racist. In contrast to the PCically racist whites.

[charred_heart]

Interesting subject. Are there any african americans from the south signed up in INTPCentral? Would be nice to hear from them. It's a very strange situation you're describing. Where I'm from good education is like gold, those lucky enough to recieve it don't waste the opportunity.

[lexiphanic]

Very vocally racist. In contrast to the PCically racist whites.

Well, I hate wiggers, so I guess I fall into that category too. ;P

I think it might be more along the line of falling out of the culture of the 'tribe' than any actually 'racism'.

But yeah, black is as good of a term as any. Although the more you know, it is somewhat analogous to calling someone that is short, shorty. Someone that is unintelligent a dummy etc...

I guess each term's correct usage varies with the publicly held definition of the word. As african american seems to be a retarded term to apply globally to people with darker skin, black seems to be PC again now.

[Sally]

As Hustler pointed out, it's not impossible to get it. And it is an uphill struggle. Plain old-fashioned racist racism is still very much at play.

But from a very young age, there was a large resistance to even trying that I think maybe started out as a reaction the failures of the civil rights movement and then just became a part of the popular culture. And I do use the term generally - of course there are exceptions. But in terms of Peer Pressure, majority rules... That if you can't win by playing the white man's game then your pride comes in flaunting every aspect of it. And that's the assumption. That's the position to build on.

I could probably say something similar about redneck culture - angrily anti-elitist, but they were the minority where I was from, so I don't have those numbers, all the examples, in my mind.

[Sally]

Well, I hate wiggers, so I guess I fall into that category too. ;P

I think it might be more along the line of falling out of the culture of the 'tribe' than any actually 'racism'.

But yeah, black is as good of a term as any. Although the more you know, it is somewhat analogous to calling someone that is short, shorty. Someone that is unintelligent a dummy etc...

I guess each term's correct usage varies with the publicly held definition of the word. As african american seems to be a retarded term to apply globally to people with darker skin, black seems to be PC again now.

Yeah, and in the midst of all the race debates that crop up on here, I also thought it would be interesting to have a discussion specifically about Racial culture. Eg. What is/isn't PC not for a particular race but for a particular (self-identifying) race at a particular place in a particular time.

[cjs55]

Sounds quite a bit like Thomas Sowell's book 'Black Rednecks and White Liberals' (even though I haven't read it).

[Sally]

And on another note, I think that my background had a very positive effect on my development. It made me very socially aware for one thing, and for another I was almost never subjected to peer pressure, because to my classmates I was a white girl first - a curiosity. They never treated me like I had to fit in.

Not that I noticed any of this at the time. Just a fond rememberance for those days of elementary school when no one ever tried very much to disturb my introversion.

[eyebyte_atWork]

Sally - I was surprised to read your initial post on this thread. Seems like you have some exposure to things and southern culture (ok - social pecking order).

I grew up in Beaumont Texas - in a working class neighborhood that was predominantly black. After my parents divorced - my mother re-married to a black man and produced my little brother. I have seen what you have seen and probably a great deal more. I am greatly concerned with the state of affairs concerning the social pecking order as it relates to race. I am also dissapointed that the youth today do not strive to overcome the problems that plague them for whatever reasons - but in particular how the color of their skin will affect their life.

I would like to share an experience:

Living in Dallas is a great deal more progressive than living in Beaumont - but you still have problems because it is still the south. I will admit that I like to speed and as such I get pulled over every now and then. When I am by myself the procedure is pretty much stress free - I get ticketed and go along my merry way. I was once pulled over with my little brother in the car - and the office was very defensive and while talking to us - had his hand on his pistol the in an "alerted" posture. He searched the car. If this had been an isolated incident I would brush it off as one cop with social hangups - but this has happened more than once. My brother is an ISTP and generally a good spirited, gentle person. I am the one who is likely to be disgruntled and hostile (and mentally capable of carrying out horrible things)- yet he is treated negatively. This is the south.

I do think that all young people owe it to themselves to be the best they can be - and this is even more important if you have dark skin.

I will add more to this when I return - I am stepping out for a minute.

[Master O]

I am half black and half white. I grew up in Texas from age 8 - 20. Maybe I'm one of the lucky ones, but race never occurred to me unless someone would bring it to my attention, which really wasn't too often, or maybe i was just oblivious most of the time.

I had black, white, hispanic and asian girlfriends. My mother is the white half, and English to boot. My parents divorced when I was about 7 and as my mother was my primary home influence and walking dictionary while growing up, i had a very good vocabulary and spoke nothing but proper English through my earlier years up until about age 14 when I started high school.

Blacks were definitely a minority in my school district, so I had mostly white friends, but in high school I began to have many more black friends and acquaintances. That's about the time I started receiving comments about my speech and questions on whether i was trying to be white. I would say i was half white and it's just the way i talk. Receiving attention for such things bothered me. It's not that I wanted to fit in, i just wanted to keep a low profile - i always have. I suppose that's the INTP in me.

Anyhow, I started to take the edge of my speech. I didn't really try to talk "black" but I consciously tried to not sound so proper - I used more slang and added a slight drawl. It's almost embarrassing to think I did this, but having to answer questions about myself that weren't related to my thoughts and ideas has always been a thorn in my side. I now know that INTP's can be chameleons and I suppose this is what I was doing. I did not want to be the center of attention unless I was playing sports or flirting with girls.

Regarding law enforcement, I am a speed demon and I had 13 speeding tickets before I left Texas at age 20 (i had even gotten 2 tickets in one week and once on Christmas Eve), but I was pulled over much more than that and let go with warnings. I never had a problem with racism from the police. Looking back on that I'm a little surprised, but I did always have a way with authority figures when I was younger. They seemed to take to me right away and I never tried to B.S. my way out of trouble - not that i didn't try to be persuasive but I pretty much told them the truth in a "everyone makes mistakes" kind of way.

I went back to Texas about 3 years ago and yes, I got a speeding ticket. Texas has really turned into a police state. You see cop cars everywhere and seemingly every few minutes on the highway. On top of that they seem to be very militant - I don't remember them being that way when I lived there. Anyhow, even though the cop that ticketed me this time around was a total dick, I didn't detect any of it being racially motivated.

[INTrPosr]

I'm Black, what are you specifically asking? As for clarifying ones racial identity, terminology is generational. Negro was used a hundred years ago, colored in the 50's and Black in the 70's. Being called African American seems pointless to some, including myself, since I am clueless of my ancestry. Could be from Africa or West Indies. I think that Sally's point of being Black in the South is subjective and relative. I would think that Blacks living in Atlanta would have no problem, as would other large metropolitan areas. Otherwise, it would be hard to be a person of color in many areas of the nation. Nevertheless, it's less about race and more about economics. The pecking order is moot when you're impoverished.

[Biff_Loman]

You know... I still have problems using the word "black." After that one time when it was emphasized to me, all the negative connotations... But after living abroad, where they don't say African-whatever, and after knowing people from Africa who aren't black..... And it seems a silly distinction, anyhow - the color of a person's skin.

Well, let's split the difference. "Blackrican" will be the new term.

[coffeezombie]

Well, let's split the difference. "Blackrican" will be the new term.
That sounds like a Black person from Puerto Rico, though.

[joft]

their grammar is perfectly fine from a linguistic point of view. from that of an english teacher, whose purpose in life is to enforce arbitrary rules to uphold an exclusive dialect of a language for the elite to make use of and effectively exclude those who can't afford or be bothered with the meticulous wrote training, their grammar is often the subject of many hilarious moral panics. by linguistic principles, some of our "proper" english constructions are not even human language. also, AAEV or whatever it's called (afro-american english vernacular? i forget), has grammatical cases that can make distinctions that "proper" english can't.

sorry for derailing, linguistic elitism just bugs me (i'm not blaming it on you or saying you're agreeing with it or anything, just pointing it out)

[eyebyte_atWork]

I am half black and half white. I grew up in Texas from age 8 - 20. Maybe I'm one of the lucky ones, but race never occurred to me unless someone would bring it to my attention, which really wasn't too often, or maybe i was just oblivious most of the time.

I had black, white, hispanic and asian girlfriends. My mother is the white half, and English to boot. My parents divorced when I was about 7 and as my mother was my primary home influence and walking dictionary while growing up, i had a very good vocabulary and spoke nothing but proper English through my earlier years up until about age 14 when I started high school.

Blacks were definitely a minority in my school district, so I had mostly white friends, but in high school I began to have many more black friends and acquaintances. That's about the time I started receiving comments about my speech and questions on whether i was trying to be white. I would say i was half white and it's just the way i talk. Receiving attention for such things bothered me. It's not that I wanted to fit in, i just wanted to keep a low profile - i always have. I suppose that's the INTP in me.

Anyhow, I started to take the edge of my speech. I didn't really try to talk "black" but I consciously tried to not sound so proper - I used more slang and added a slight drawl. It's almost embarrassing to think I did this, but having to answer questions about myself that weren't related to my thoughts and ideas has always been a thorn in my side. I now know that INTP's can be chameleons and I suppose this is what I was doing. I did not want to be the center of attention unless I was playing sports or flirting with girls.

Regarding law enforcement, I am a speed demon and I had 13 speeding tickets before I left Texas at age 20 (i had even gotten 2 tickets in one week and once on Christmas Eve), but I was pulled over much more than that and let go with warnings. I never had a problem with racism from the police. Looking back on that I'm a little surprised, but I did always have a way with authority figures when I was younger. They seemed to take to me right away and I never tried to B.S. my way out of trouble - not that i didn't try to be persuasive but I pretty much told them the truth in a "everyone makes mistakes" kind of way.

I went back to Texas about 3 years ago and yes, I got a speeding ticket. Texas has really turned into a police state. You see cop cars everywhere and seemingly every few minutes on the highway. On top of that they seem to be very militant - I don't remember them being that way when I lived there. Anyhow, even though the cop that ticketed me this time around was a total dick, I didn't detect any of it being racially motivated.

Maybe you did not detect it because you have never seen how they treat others - I have a baby brother who is black and I see the way they treat him (when we get pulled over)- and I am sure he sees no difference - and I am not black and I see how they treat me (when I get pulled over alone) - I see the night and day difference in the respect level.

Ofcourse I admit the extra hostility may arise from seeing two men who are from different backgrounds (on the surface) and they may conclude that something illegal may be going on.

[Sally]

I think that Sally's point of being Black in the South is subjective and relative.

Very true. Which is why I'm very interested in everyone else's take on things.


I would think that Blacks living in Atlanta would have no problem, as would other large metropolitan areas.

No and no and no. Not that I've seen. Not that I've ever heard of. ...Unless they start out in higher social bracket.


Otherwise, it would be hard to be a person of color in many areas of the nation. Nevertheless, it's less about race and more about economics. The pecking order is moot when you're impoverished

Yes, I think that economics plays a huge part, and the very poor white kids can have it pretty damn bad as well. But, as Master O says and as I've observed, black kids are expected to either fit in with the pop culture or they're "acting white," which is very negative. This is in contrast to the west coast, where I'm living now, where there's a very prominent black intellectual subculture. Proper grammar (which I'll address below) - thoughful conversation, complex political opinions. That was extremely rare in my school experience and often greeted with mockery or hostility. It wasn't just a sense of a different class; it was almost race betrayal. To some. It was an undercurrent.

And I'm speaking of all of this in terms of general social trends. Of course there are exceptions, but the exceptions (who were almost always or always from those higher social brackets) come under pressure from the black majority - more negative than positive.

[Sally]

their grammar is perfectly fine from a linguistic point of view. from that of an english teacher, whose purpose in life is to enforce arbitrary rules to uphold an exclusive dialect of a language for the elite to make use of and effectively exclude those who can't afford or be bothered with the meticulous wrote training, their grammar is often the subject of many hilarious moral panics. by linguistic principles, some of our "proper" english constructions are not even human language. also, AAEV or whatever it's called (afro-american english vernacular? i forget), has grammatical cases that can make distinctions that "proper" english can't.

sorry for derailing, linguistic elitism just bugs me (i'm not blaming it on you or saying you're agreeing with it or anything, just pointing it out)

Yeah that's what I always thought as well. And it's what I still think, intellectually. But from a business standpoint - if you do not have the ability to speak in a "proper" manner and your job involves verbal communication - forget it.

I was involved in hiring my replacement at my old job. We had plenty of applicants who had everything they needed ... but the grammar and enunciation. Because they had never been taught - or rather, they had never had to learn it. They speak a distinct dialect that creates a negative business impression in the national corporate world. I don't care if it's right or wrong - it's economics. We couldn't afford to have someone on the phone, representing our business, who would create a negative impression.

I mean, I worked for white southern, Christian,Republicans - wonderful people, but I was dying to hire an intelligent black girl to take over for me and balance them out. And it's not that the applicants weren't intelligent - they sure as hell were. But they couldn't convey that intelligence to customers and vendors and business partners over the phone. So no go.

They Couldn't. It's not that they could and chose not to to make a point. No - they had obviously taken pains to present themselves as attractively (from a hiring standpoint) as possible. They had come from the same public school system as me, and they did not know grammatically correct English.

That horrified me.

[lexiphanic]

Yeah that's what I always thought as well. And it's what I still think, intellectually. But from a business standpoint - if you do not have the ability to speak in a "proper" manner and your job involves verbal communication - forget it.

BAM!!!!

The crux of the issue. If you can't make yourself understood, communication and language fail.

[mgb]

BAM!!!

I don't think it is. I think the problems run much deeper than the surface ones you want us to look at.

It's not that they can't be understood. It's that people don't want to try and understand them. And why they don't want to try is the real issue.

[Master O]

BAM!!!

I don't think it is. I think the problems run much deeper than the surface ones you want us to look at.

It's not that they can't be understood. It's that people don't want to try and understand them. And why they don't want to try is the real issue.
good point.

i must admit though, significant improper use of the English Language by non foreigners hurts my ears. I don't give people a hard time about it, unless teasing, but I don't like to hear it.

i understand why it exists, but still, it just does not convey professionalism - which can be unfair to the perhaps otherwise professional individual, but the perception becomes the reality regarding first impressions.

[INTrPosr]

The crux of the issue. If you can't make yourself understood, communication and language fail.Making oneself understood is a two lane street. Many times the listner has a preconceived notion of what to expect when encountered by a minority in general, i.e., anyone from Asian or Hispanic ancestry must have a strong accent, a Black person must use Ebonics. When it is determined that the speaker does not, they are still not heard, due to the receiver's preconception that they will not be capalbe of understanding the minority. There has been countless encounters where the receiver gives a double take because my communication skills were not what was expected.