INTP vs INTJ brother

[Electric]

Ok, from the beginning of my life, I've always had an INTJ brother who I've always challenge from time to time. And everytime I do this, I always lose. I lose most in sports, games, school, and fist fights. It sucks knowing that he beats me in everything....almost everything. The only thing I believe I beat him in is my creative ways.

Does anyone else experience this?

[mgb]

Everytime I see "vs" in a thread I think, there is going to be a fight.

Obviously in this case there has been, and you still lose.

If you want to beat him at anything, you're going to have to shoot him in the knee. Then laugh at him because now you'll be able to beat him at lots of stuff.

[ApeTheDog]

I think one thing you have with INTJ's is... they never let you know that you've won. I'm sure you've beaten him intellectually plenty of times - but don't expect him to ever let you know.

They also never give up, until either you, or they, are defeated. In games, they'll come back from every disadvantage you throw their way, because they just can't stand being defeated at all.

That has always been my experience with them.

[Electric]

If you want to beat him at anything, you're going to have to shoot him in the knee. Then laugh at him because now you'll be able to beat him at lots of stuff.

lol my options for beating him sure seems slim.



They also never give up, until either you, or they, are defeated.

That is exactly like my brother. When I have him in a pickle, my brother doesn't seem affected by the stress at all and continues with his confidence.

[coffeezombie]

As an INTP, you have to practice at intellectual things and develop creative strategies in order to beat an INTJ. I think they normally just have quicker strategic minds than INTPs, but we tend to think a bit more "outside the box" than they do.

[jjt]

Ok, from the beginning of my life, I've always had an INTJ brother who I've always challenge from time to time. And everytime I do this, I always lose. I lose most in sports, games, school, and fist fights. It sucks knowing that he beats me in everything....almost everything. The only thing I believe I beat him in is my creative ways.

Does anyone else experience this?

My INTJ brother used to drive me nuts like this, ruthlessly thrash me at board games (chess etc). I didn't like him much when we were kids. I only appreciate him now in adulthood.
I'm envious that he's stuck to one career his whole life (electronic engineer and computor programmer) I admire him for his incredible career. But on the other hand I've had a far more varied and interesting life (IMO). We have great converstations now, as he's got older he's less rigid and more thoughtful.

[eyebyte_atWork]

You cannot beat an INTJ.

:)

[ptGatsby]

My INTJ friend and I had enough personality differences that we couldn't work together on our own business.

I can say, however, that INTJ's are not universely better. I do a lot of things better than him.

The difference is that we don't *act*. My GF (also INTJ) will go into a store and demand money back if she feels she deserves it. I can't do that. My INTJ friend will go out schmoozing if he needs to. I can't do that either.

What neither one could possibly match with me is my view of the future. I just put things together faster, better and more accurately than they can. They decide too quickly - my GF decided she wanted a Treo650 last weekend... and made an 'impulsive buy', complete with a full weekend of running around fixing problems because of it... stuff like that.

Certain games I can defeat them in as well... but like people have said, they are pretty merciless. We let our minds wander, want to see what else we could do. They just do... most effective way... and that's it. Boring to us, but effective.

None the less, this means that you can easily predict them. Been true with every INTJ i've ever known, once you get to know them. In a pure strategy game you'll have a hard time (ie: Chess). In a more open partial information game (Poker) you can deal with the possibilities better and will tend to have an advantage.

All that, in my expierence, of course.

[TPol]

I play strategy board games against my INTJ hubby. He is hard to beat, which makes the gaming even more fun for me. You, as an INTP, have two distinct advantages over an INTJ. Both of you probably think several moves into the future, but I'd bet you think further. And, you have more ability to take your time. So, use some time to think LOTS of moves for lots of scenarios far into the future. Meanwhile, the INTJ is either getting frustrated you're taking some time, which may possibly fluster them into making bad moves (hasn't worked on hubby yet, but I'm still hoping), OR they let their mind wander during the wait so that you can do something unexpected without them really registering it (has worked a couple of times). Whatever you do, change your strategies often because an INTJ is going to remember every stinkin' strategy you ever use. Which means you can run out of strategies eventually.... Okay, okay... they do seem to be pretty unbeatable. But, there's hope. There's got to be hope! If none of this works, resort to trickery or choose another game you can beat him on for the first few times until he learns the ropes. Victory will come to the persistent, I just know it!

[C.J.Woolf]

Is it really true that INTPs are better than INTJs at limited-information games like poker? It would be nice if it is true.

Maybe you can outmaneuver an INTJ in a multi-player political game. One key to success in politics is understanding other people's interests so you can propose deals they will agree to, because they benefit them as well as you -- but benefit you more. There are not many of those games -- Diplomacy, Intrige, Rette Sich Wer Kann (Every Man for Himself!), and Republic of Rome come to mind, and they are all pretty much gamers' games.

As I see it, INTJs are tough to beat for four main reasons:

1. They're smart. (But so are INTPs.)

2. They think strategically. (Ditto for INTPs, but somewhat less so.)

3. They hate to lose. (I like to win more than I hate to lose.)

4. They have the stick-to-it-iveness to master a game. (I'm a dilettante about damn near everything, games included.)

[Hypnos]

All my close male friends and I have had a time in our lives during which we were hypercompetitive. That's one thing you need to win; another is to be able to keep cool at the same time. I think this is where INTPs trip up -- they get nervous/flustered.

[waxwing]

Well, my brother is INXJ, and even though he did everything better than I did in school and in life he was nice enough to not make me feel like a loser. I guess I excel a little more in the arts, but not by much. He always says I'm better than he is in this area, but to me it is probably our greatest connecting point because we are both interested in what the other is doing musically. But, in just about everything else, he is the one people read about in newspaper articles.

He is quite a strong J, so I'd fear for my life if he were a strong T.

[aether]

I have an INTJ sister and well...it's hard being an INTJ women IMO, because that's the type of personality society doesn't expect from a woman. We are in a truce for the holidays.

[ptGatsby]

Is it really true that INTPs are better than INTJs at limited-information games like poker? It would be nice if it is true.


Well, I'm mixed on this. However, I grasped poker far faster and more in depth than both of my closest INTJs. My friend is a fairly extreme INTJ, my GF is a weaker T, it didn't make much difference.

I do think that we grasp information and put it together - in context - faster. Does it have a limit? Maybe. If a J has more expierence to draw upon, we might not be the best, true.



Maybe you can outmaneuver an INTJ in a multi-player political game. One key to success in politics is understanding other people's interests so you can propose deals they will agree to, because they benefit them as well as you -- but benefit you more. There are not many of those games -- Diplomacy, Intrige, Rette Sich Wer Kann (Every Man for Himself!), and Republic of Rome come to mind, and they are all pretty much gamers' games.


J's deal well with a simplified ruleset. When you have a clearly determined set of rules (even ala diplomacy) they excel... I can see it in my GF all the time. When the situation is clearly defined to her, she can move forward quickly and... well... mercilessly. Whatever works - in the casino she plays the 'innocent girl' but at the home games its the exact opposite. She swears she isn't doing it purposely... but yah. I believe it! Its their ability to do whatever works... to gain advantage, to reach their goal.

In life, there are far more possibilities than in a game. Can we be more successful? Probably not. When they find something, anything, they exploit it. We find it and don't do anything. They reach their goals using whatever means are around. However, their ability to see as deeply or find as much isn't nearly as good.

Unfortunately, finding less and making use of it > finding more and not making use of it.



As I see it, INTJs are tough to beat for four main reasons:
1. They're smart. (But so are INTPs.)
2. They think strategically. (Ditto for INTPs, but somewhat less so.)
3. They hate to lose. (I like to win more than I hate to lose.)
4. They have the stick-to-it-iveness to master a game. (I'm a dilettante about damn near everything, games included.)


I think the main focus is that they don't think beyond winning, we do. When they sit in front of a chess board... well, this is from one of the INTP descriptions. We think about what we could do if things moved differently... why they should... stuff like that. They think about reaching across the board and strangling you. ie: every move with purpose.

How do you beat that in a fixed rule game? Not very easily!

[TPol]

Hubby just saw this thread and read through it.

He said, "Interesting problem you guys have there." * smirks and walks away *

[nottaprettygal]

Hubby just saw this thread and read through it.

He said, "Interesting problem you guys have there." * smirks and walks away *

Heh. That's pretty much the reaction I have to reading this thread. You all have certainly done a good job boosting my ego.

Please continue.

[cjs55]

Sometimes you will usually lose...but sometimes you will usually win. There are plenty of situations in which an INTP of equal intelligence is superior to an INTJ....and vice versa.

The simple solution is to just pick the situations in which you have the advantage, but that's not necessarily as fun. ; )

The biggest problem to overcome for INTPs I would imagine is excessive doubt...but said doubt can easily become an essential tool for success as well, as long as it used correctly.

[Zero Angel]

Heh, this topic kind of reminded me of Freddy vs. Jason. I don't know why, but I found that thought mildly amusing.

My father is an INFJ. How that relates to this is that he is stubborn when I suggest anything to him. I have the sometimes to say "No! (That is stupid!) I told you it works this way!" (he keeps his old habit). Like he has this illusion on Romance of the Three Kingdoms that if he presses buttons really rapidly that it will stack the odds of a duel in his favor and it never, ever, has any effect.

I can relate somewhat about INJ's not letting you know that you've won.

Eyebyte... is that a challenge? Because if it is, I will gladly rise to meet it!
(yeah, i'm being immature.)

[JustAperson]

In a more open partial information game (Poker) you can deal with the possibilities better and will tend to have an advantage.

All that, in my expierence, of course.


Which is why my INTJ friends can whip me in chess but never in Magic the Gathering.

[ptGatsby]

Which is why my INTJ friends can whip me in chess but never in Magic the Gathering.


Yes, to a certain degree. We can be too clever. Certain decks, like burn, stompy and all of the general aggro decks can be very J. Turn creatures sideways, kick ass.

The application of the decks are often J too, even in stuff like counter-burn (patience) or prison decks (patience AND cool factor stuff).

On the other hand, I don't know a single J that could find patterns in a collection of cards that changes every 3+months with a pool of 1200 odd cards. (Last time I played was about 3-4 years ago, but that's what T2 was at then).

Too many paths for them to decide on, especially with limited information. Worse in sealed vs constructed... and never mind drafting which seems to rest firmly in P hands.

[Bugeater]

My mom is an INTJ and definitely has that determination to succeed at everything she undertakes. She's done very well in her career. As for games, she likes ones involving cards and is usually pretty good at them, but she doesn't win all the time.

[Elizabeth B]

Try Euchre. It's fast paced and there's randomness.

Of course, you'll need 2 more players.

[Phenylethylene]

An NTJ's determination can backfire when they get stuck in difficult (if not impossible) situations. INTPs have a much easier time stepping back to consider alternative approaches. If you can manage to delude him into thinking he has an advantage over you by persuing one avenue and you are able to stall him there while you quietly work out an alternate strategy, you should do well -- however, this could be quite a challenge in a game where all the pieces are on the table (like chess).

An ENTJ I work with has been repeatedly stuck for hours on problems for which I much earlier gave him solutions; they simply don't register with him until he gets completely frustrated and exhausted. Occasionally he has exclaimed "Finally! Look, it works!" and my reply: "Yeah, that's what I suggested four hours ago."

I think both types are good at outside-of-the box thinking, the difference is that I usually do a breadth first search while he does a depth first search.

[Syd400]

I have an older INTJ brother who is very much identical to the competitive type you describe. Although we're both leaps and bounds ahead of most people in strategy, he almost always beats me. I can't offer you any advice on winning but I can point out some things I've noticed that really bug my older INTJ brother.

1) Even if he wins 9 out of 10 times, that single loss will bother him more than my nine collectively, so...I like to bring up his mistake as often as possible even if it's off topic and especially with his friends present.
...keep in mind though, he will aggressively discuss what happened until he feels that everyone in the room is sure which one of us is dominant over the other.

2) If I'm playing against him in chess, I know that I'm going to lose regardless of even my greatest efforts...so what I like to do is act really distracted or preoccupied with something else. Sometimes I'll watch T.V. or play tetris on my phone during a game of any kind. (It may seem like I'm not paying any attention but in reality I'm pretty focused on winning that damn game!) If you win, he'll take it really hard. If you lose, he probably won't feel like he won.

3) If I ever do win at something, I never play him at that game again...ever. Denying him a rematch definitely gives him the urge to kill me in my sleep though...(or so he says)

*If you are the younger sibling, he'll take things much worse* (mine's 8 years older)

...a word of warning though...although me and my brother are pretty good friends now, I don't expect things to work out as well for everyone...also, he thought I was among the biggest fools to walk the planet until he figured out what was going on.

It may have helped that I have a weak 'P' but I'd like to think that everything worked out because I'm an evil mater mind. Muhaha

[Vivid]

I've seen it go either way.
I wouldn't be surprised if he's insecure about losing and sees it differently.

[Tiamat]

I like my INTJ brother,
he never let me win as a kid and now I dominate at most games

[Ptah]

Go for the groin;

a) lull them into a state of confidence
b) make sure you're wearing a cup yourself; brace for weakness-exploitation in response before you..
c) unequivocally undercut whatever expressed (or better, evident but unexpressed) sense of creativity they have; if you can, challenge and press them to the mat on something creative that you do better.
d) do not press and provide any more an opportunity for rebuttal than is minimally necessary to end the conversation and move on to something else.

:devil:

[Tiamat]

Go for the groin;

a) lull them into a state of confidence
b) make sure you're wearing a cup yourself; brace for weakness-exploitation in response before you..
c) unequivocally undercut whatever expressed (or better, evident but unexpressed) sense of creativity they have; if you can, challenge and press them to the mat on something creative that you do better.
d) do not press and provide any more an opportunity for rebuttal than is minimally necessary to end the conversation and move on to something else.

:devil:

And here I thought the INTJs were the evil ones

[Ptah]

And here I thought the INTJs were the evil ones

Hey. Who started it? We have different words and concepts for initiation and retaliation for good reason. :)

[Denzien]

Try playing Munchkin. It's a little old, but it's a worthy game.

[Tiamat]

Hey. Who started it? We have different words and concepts for initiation and retaliation for good reason. :)

Let's just turn them against ESFJs and hope they finish each other off...

[Ptah]

Ha! To continue in a somewhat banal type-generalizing fashion, if you turn the INTJs loose against the ESFJs, there's no contest in my mind. Woe betide the ESFJs, if you ask me... :P

Anyhow, on-topic-ish: according to the INTJs I've come to know IRL and otherwise, they don't respond well to properly targeted/delivered attacks on those aspects of themselves they hold/wish as being "creative", particularly not in the context of comparison rendering them unequivocally smote. The trick is in the targeting and delivery, imho. And not giving them an opportunity to bite back.

In general, however, I find few if any reasons to resort to such things. I like INTJs :)

[Tiamat]

I actually think it would bring happiness for the INTJs to learn that we've been forced to collectively scheme against them.

Although I wouldn't want to wait around to see their response against us...

*you'll protect me...right Ptah?*

[Ptah]

I actually think it would bring happiness for the INTJ to learn that we've been forced to collectively scheme against them.


Bring them happiness? Hardly. It would inspire in them derision, if you ask me.



Although I wouldn't want to wait around to see their response against us...

*promise you'll protect me Ptah?*

Ha. That depends on who started it, you or them, and whether I have a reason to get involved. :mellow: The way history has panned out at large, I side with the INTJs, I have to warn you.

[Tiamat]

Oh well, I guess I'll just have to further develop my Fe...
(I'll need something to comfort me after my crushing defeat)

[mgb]

HA! Two years later and I'd still give the same advice!

[b9588]

I'm not sure if the parallel can be drawn, but I'm sure you've all heard of the computer Deep Blue beating the grand chessmaster Kasparov at chess, right?

It's been speculated that Deep Blue uses a vast, parallel-processing search tree, whereas the human player tends to use a more flexible, adaptable form of selecting viable moves. There's a key difference here in how moves are selected: the computer starts off with an enormous game tree and prunes off all the fruitless moves, whereas the human *selects* a move. The difference is subtle but it's there.

When I was reading the thread, I couldn't help but to think of this parallel. I seems that INTJs, like the computer, are very, very powerful with a whole host of possible, heuristic strategies...but when faced with unpredictability, may be a little less flexible and adaptable than INTPs.

[EmmaPeel]

Ok, from the beginning of my life, I've always had an INTJ brother who I've always challenge from time to time. And everytime I do this, I always lose. I lose most in sports, games, school, and fist fights. It sucks knowing that he beats me in everything....almost everything. The only thing I believe I beat him in is my creative ways.

Does anyone else experience this?

Why would you lose?