popular trends

[phrog]

Do I have lots of company here in being totally bewildered by things like "the latest men's fashions" and the trendy colors of the year. It all seems like a conspiracy by clothing companies, paint companies, etc. Who cares, and how dare they expect me to care? I guess it's a bit annoying, really, when there are so many better ways to spend your time and money.

[Xander]

Conspiracy or good marketing?
Not sure.

It not them that annoy me. They're in it to earn money.
The ones who reall piss me off are those who buy and 'darling-ise' it all.
The ones with soooo much money they just want to pay through the teeth to show everyone else their wealth and 'exclusivity'.
I suppose the worst offenders are those like Trinny and Susannah who try to enforce the marketing on people and call it design.
The whole concept of 'this suits you' is entirely subjective and circumstantial.
It really bugs me the way its all put across as fact.

Brown is the new black darling. :rant: :rant: :rant:

[eyebyte_atWork]

It's all a big ploy to keep the money flowing from you to them. Fashion, cars, gym memberships , bailey's cream - all of it. You take some and you leave some. I prefer fashions that last and are considered classics - that never go out of style. I prefer cars that also can last 10 years and not be considered too old. I work out at home having bought all the equiptment I will ever need (no- not a blowflex) and I drink beer and not whatever new trendy thing comes out (closet alcoholic).

[ApeTheDog]

Well it's easy. If you have a thousand people who all want to appear original, but none of them are capable of doing so by their own strengths, you'll always find someone who will sell them this.

Nothing motivates people more than being better than other people, and if fashion can do this - after all, the more fashionable you are dressed the better - it becomes a constant struggle. The people who make the things struggle to be the next hippest thing, the people who want to be hip struggle to make sure they always know what the next hip thing is (and then share tips with each other, or write about it in magazines so that everybody follows them) and so on...

The only way to escape this and come out on top is to either not follow anything at all, and have a good sense of fashion yourself, make choices yourself out of what is available without necesarily going for what is fashionable at the moment (with the disadvantage that other people may mimic your style and it may become fashionable - causing you to have to find something else again, which keeps the whole thing going) or just wearing toeslippers, which immediately removes you from any kind of criticism at all, because you're a hippie.

[phrog]

Ape, you got it! Appearing original by investing in whatever the marketing folks program you to want. It's idiotic. And Eyebite, my favorite piece of dress-up clothing is a professorial looking, high quality tweed sportcoat that I bought about 20 years ago, and it still looks great. Never in style, never out of style.

Oh, I just heard somewhere that the latest fashion trend for men -- listening, all you INTPs? -- is diamond-studded watches. If I had that kind of money, I'd give it to the humane society.

[Pooja]

Trends & Fashions change constantly and cyclically, with each cycle lasting (approx.) 20 years. Trying to follow these things, is like a dog chasing its tale--it looks pathetic, it will never really catch the tail (and you'll never be completely "in"), and it' not sure whether it's following (the tail/trends) or leading. Pathetic.
I wear whatever makes me happy, and what flatters my figure. Today I wore a shirt that said "Jesus is Dead"...lol.

[phrog]

20 years? I think the NY Times produces a special Fashion magazine twice a year. The advertisers' message is clearly, "You SHOULD want these new clothes...not because they're better than what you have, but because we say so. And we'll have you replace them in 6 months."

The men's diamond watches I mentioned are, to me, a new low. You can make some argument that an expensive watch could be worth it because of the parts used or the time it takes to make. (Not that I would care.) But diamonds are so literally a superficial way to add cost. And even diamonds are only rare/valuable because of the cartels limiting distribution. It's really blatant and pathetic on many levels.

[booyalab]

The whole concept of 'this suits you' is entirely subjective and circumstantial.

it can be. But a dress made out of this
http://www.amonline.net.au/insects/images/insects/250/instar_3.jpg
would never be as popular as one made out of this
http://www.silkline.ch/images/satin.jpg even though they're roughly the same color, and even if an equal amount of effort was put into marketing them.

And I suppose you think that a larger person can wear huge, bright purple and orange horizontal stripes. It's 'marketing' that makes people think that doesn't suit them, right?

[Madrigal]

The whole aversion to fashion is silly. I don't advocate wearing whatever is "in" at all times, but making an effort to be creative about your appearance is something I appreciate. It's a statement about yourself, it's how you feel or what you're thinking. It projects something about you that others are tuning into. The colors you combine, the textures you use, all of that may even have practical uses. Being ignorant about how to "dress for the occasion" is a type of social dysfunction, as long as it is not helping you achieve your desired results.

That said, I like certain trends and it entertains me to project the style of a moment in history, past or present. What's the harm in that? I'm not gonna sell my grandmother for a new pair of boots or anything. Why this silly prejudice?

[phrog]

There's a difference between knowing how to dress for an occasion, and feeling a need to wear the latest stuff. My old tweed sportcoat is fine for business meetings...and if the statement it makes is that I don't want to spend my money on newer clothes, that's accurate.

[cjs55]

I wore my shirt inside out yesterday. Accidentaly. I didn't notice until I got home. I usually just don't notice clothes, on myself or others. They are there to cover you up. If it's cold they need to be warm. If it's warm wear shorts and a t-shirt.


It's a statement about yourself, it's how you feel or what you're thinking.

The only statement I get from people who obviously took a long time on their clothing/appearance is: You spent a lot of energy on something that doesn't matter (to me, of course). I'm not judging people who think differently, but it seems you are making a universal judgement that isn't always true. Sometimes people just get out of bed and throw some clothes on.

Sure in some social situations you need to dress appropriately, and damn I may certainly be dysfunctional in that regard. But in day to day life...whatever.

[Madrigal]

I wore my shirt inside out yesterday. Accidentaly. I didn't notice until I got home.

Heh, that look was "in" a while ago.


I usually just don't notice clothes, on myself or others.

That's too bad, because you learn a lot about people judging by what they are wearing. It's like looking into a woman's purse (not that I do that or anything).


The only statement I get from people who obviously took a long time on their clothing/appearance is: You spent a lot of energy on something that doesn't matter (to me, of course). I'm not judging people who think differently, but it seems you are making a universal judgement that isn't always true. Sometimes people just get out of bed and throw some clothes on.

It matters when it is functional and/or makes you feel good.

It is simple. We do a lot of seemingly superfluous things that are actually quite functional. I could probably not brush my hair, for example, but that'll project a negative image of me. We also do many superfluous things just because we enjoy them. All of those superfluous functional/enjoyable things take up time that we could spend on other things - but everyone does them.

[the_stumpycat]

That's too bad, because you learn a lot about people judging by what they are wearing.

I do find that I can create first impressions very quickly of people based on what they look like - and generally I am right.

Of course, someone dressed in the height of latest fashion I normally judge as a moron more pre-occupied by impressions than having any substance, who has more money than sense.



Talking of which - aren't the new smileys cool (pity I can't get them to work :-()

[ApeTheDog]

You learn what people want you to learn from how they look. I prefer to learn what they don't want you to know. Clothing is a statement, sure - but the only statement it gives is that

A. They care about how they look
B. They can dress themselves

Not really the summit of depth you can probe to, personality-wise, in my opinion, so I don't really give it much attention. I tend to learn more from talking to someone for five minutes than from observing what they've worn for a whole lifetime.

And yes, I dress good enough, and match colours, and try to appear good enough with what I have, but I won't buy things that will go out of style anytime soon just for the sake of having more things to work with. An outfit that looks good enough is the only thing I aspire to - I couldn't care less about being really spotlessly well dressed, because the extra effort that would require is not worth my time.

[Madrigal]

Of course, someone dressed in the height of latest fashion I normally judge as a moron more pre-occupied by impressions than having any substance, who has more money than sense.

Is there any basis for this judgment?

[ApeTheDog]

Is there any basis for this judgment?

It's the same as that you can judge a person who collects millions of trains as a moron. They might not be - but they sure spend a lot of time on the same reasonably unsubstantial thing, when they could probably spend their energy better.

[Madrigal]

It's the same as that you can judge a person who collects millions of trains as a moron. They might not be - but they sure spend a lot of time on the same reasonably unsubstantial thing, when they could probably spend their energy better.
That's the point I'm trying to make, what makes you think your time is put to "better" use? What makes one type of time investment "better" than another? Everyone engages in 'unecessary', 'selfish' and 'superficial' activities, many of which are not even as functional as being trendy.

[ApeTheDog]

But not everybody gets engrossed in them, to the detriment of other things. And people who are obsessed with looks tend to overlook that there are other things that make up a person as well. That does not have to go for everybody - nothing ever does! - but come on... it goes for a shitload of them.

[the_stumpycat]

That's the point I'm trying to make, what makes you think your time is put to "better" use? What makes one type of time investment "better" than another? Everyone engages in 'unecessary', 'selfish' and 'superficial' activities, many of which are not even as functional as being trendy.

Me put my time to 'better' use? I spend it playing on here, working, putting things off, and procrastinating - they are 100x more productive buying their new platform shoes or whatever it is but that doesn't mean I respect them for it.

To me, it shows a lack of independence and a lack of thought - all it shows is an ability to read hello magazine or whatever it is and copy what you are told you should do to be like other people. It also suggests to me a pre-occupation with the superficial.

Quite apart from that, a lot of them wear things that are totally unsuitable for them. The trend for girls to have their mid-riff showing does not look good on someone who weighs as much as me - I know that - why don't they ?

[Madrigal]

But not everybody gets engrossed in them, to the detriment of other things. And people who are obsessed with looks tend to overlook that there are other things that make up a person as well.
Do you mean that if you dress trendy, you are a bad judge of character, or see others in a superficial light?
And if you are trendy, are you necessarily - or even usually - engrossed in it to the point of it being detrimental to other things?

[the_stumpycat]

Do you mean that if you dress trendy, you are a bad judge of character, or see others in a superficial light?
And if you are trendy, are you necessarily - or even usually - engrossed in it to the point of it being detrimental to other things?

Yes

[Madrigal]

Me put my time to 'better' use? I spend it playing on here, working, putting things off, and procrastinating - they are 100x more productive buying their new platform shoes or whatever it is but that doesn't mean I respect them for it.

What I ask is, why? Why is it more productive to put things off and procrastinate, than to dress trendy?


To me, it shows a lack of independence and a lack of thought - all it shows is an ability to read hello magazine or whatever it is and copy what you are told you should do to be like other people. It also suggests to me a pre-occupation with the superficial.

Why a lack of independence? And why superficial? If I like to take photographs of the city, does that make me superficial because I enjoy images?

[Madrigal]

Yes
Is there a basis for this judgement?

[the_stumpycat]

What I ask is, why? Why is it more productive to put things off and procrastinate, than to dress trendy?

Lol I wasn't being totally serious - I think I am probably one of the worst ten people in the world to judge on what is a good use of time - since I never use time well.....


Why a lack of independence? And why superficial? If I like to take photographs of the city, does that make me superficial because I enjoy images?

Because following fashion inherrantly means doing exactly what you are told to do without question.

Taking photographs of the city would be superficial if you did it based on an article in a magazine saying "taking photographs of the city is the new Rock and Roll, and anyone who is anyone is doing it. Don't be seen out this season without taking photographs of the city."


Is there a basis for this judgement?
Yes!



Trends change rapidly to allow shops to make profits and magazines to sell. To dress trendily you have to keep up with this change. The rapid change means you need to apply effort to this and put thought into it. To be trendy usually requires not only buying the latest fashions in clothes, but also music, wine, houses, decor, etc etc - it is a big job.

Putting effort and thought into all of this is detrimental to otherthings (you must have less time).

Additionally, if you are that engrossed, it is going to become your point of reference and so you are going to measure people against it.

Judging and measuring people by the way they look - particularly with reference to how a magazine says that a style looks - is inherrently superficial

[Madrigal]

Lol I wasn't being totally serious - I think I am probably one of the worst ten people in the world to judge on what is a good use of time - since I never use time well.....

I'm not all that serious myself. Just wondering what people's reasons are...


Because following fashion inherrantly means doing exactly what you are told to do without question.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?


Trends change rapidly to allow shops to make profits and magazines to sell. To dress trendily you have to keep up with this change.

We all know every product we consume is designed in order for some capitalist to make greater profits. From the computer you're using, down to the socks you have on.


The rapid change means you need to apply effort to this and put thought into it.

We put thought into everything we consume, whether that be picking out groceries, buying a new computer or choosing the drink we're going to have at a bar. How is this wrong?


To be trendy usually requires not only buying the latest fashions in clothes, but also music, wine, houses, decor, etc etc - it is a big job.

While this may be true for some, I was not referring to a lifestyle choice of *always* buying the latest and trendiest products in every aspect of life, or becoming obsessed with trends in any way.



Additionally, if you are that engrossed, it is going to become your point of reference and so you are going to measure people against it.

I never said anyone had to be engrossed.


Judging and measuring people by the way they look - particularly with reference to how a magazine says that a style looks - is inherrently superficial

I never said you have to think, 'this person doesn't dress according to the latest trend, that must mean he's a loser'. I simply said it is important to know how to dress for the occasion, it is functional.

I also said you can learn a lot about a person from how they dress. I can tell if someone is neat, I can tell if they're creative, I can tell if they're laid-back, I can tell if they're obsessive. I know if they understand coordination, I know if they care what anyone thinks, I know if they have good taste or are totally hopeless. I can sometimes figure out their nationality. I can imagine what kind of life they have. I have been able to spot an infiltrated agent in a crowd of protesters just by looking at the shoes he had on. None of what I'm saying is untrue. I'm just stating an obvious fact. You project something upon others, just as you do when you open your mouth to say something.

[phrog]

I think it comes down to the old saying "question authority." Are we really to believe that the person wearing the latest fashion thinks it looks better on him/her than last year's, or just that they will wear whatever the media dictate? It shows a lack of critical thought.

It's also a kind of self-fascination or narcissism that I just can't understand. Why spend the time/money? I feel the same way when I see someone with tattoos or shrapnel in their noses, ears, lips, etc. Why invest so heavily in influencing what passers-by think of you? Why give a shit what messages you're sending with your appearance, and why should others care about them?

[Madrigal]

I think it comes down to the old saying "question authority." Are we really to believe that the person wearing the latest fashion thinks it looks better on him/her than last year's, or just that they will wear whatever the media dictate? It shows a lack of critical thought.

You see, nobody said that you have to wear whatever the media dictate. Even within what you can call fashionable at any given moment, there are tons of styles and ways to combine items so that they suit you personally. In fact, I am 100% sure that the diversity you say fashion *dictates* is a lot richer at any given moment than the one or two styles you may choose to wear monotonously every day. If that suits you, it is fine, but I'm not saying you have no capacity for critical thought, just because you choose to wear the same things every day, right? There are no justifications for any of the sweeping statements made here against being fashion-conscious.


It's also a kind of self-fascination or narcissism that I just can't understand. Why spend the time/money? I feel the same way when I see someone with tattoos or shrapnel in their noses, ears, lips, etc. Why invest so heavily in influencing what passers-by think of you? Why give a shit what messages you're sending with your appearance, and why should others care about them?

Is there something wrong with wanting to look good? People do it for themselves as well as to project an image. How is that wrong? It isn't if it makes you feel good and/or is functional - but I already went into that. Do you invest any extra time into your apearance when you go out on a date or when you have a job interview? Your last statements sounded absurdly hypocritical.

[Star]

I wore my shirt inside out yesterday. Accidentaly. I didn't notice until I got home.
:rofl:

I did this with my panties yesterday. Honest.

It's a 0% Sensor thing, I think.

[Star]

Is there something wrong with wanting to look good?
In general society? Nah, not really. In a group of INTPs? Yeah, we have better things to think about. Seriously, Madrigal, where and how did you come to the conclusion that you're INTP? It's obvious to me that you're something else. No offense; there's no type that's better than any other, but I can tell a lot about someone by the things that they say and care about.

[MasterMerk]

Oh snap.

I think looking like a bum is sexy... A sexy bum, that is.

Reasons:
1) It takes no effort at all.
2) It's cheap.
3) Shaving, haircuts, and showers are optional if not inoften.
4) You constantly look like you have no money, so nobody bothers you.
5) Dry sarcasm and deadpan humour are rendered waaay funnier.
6) You can make your own clothes - provided they look bummish.
7) Errm.... fuck the man!

[the_stumpycat]

There are no justifications for any of the sweeping statements made here against being fashion-conscious. .


Here is the justification.


Option 1

Monday morning. Oversleep. Alarm clock goes off. Hit it. Go sleep more. Wake up - going to be very late. Sleep some more. On brink of getting sack, get out of bed. Pick up clothes from floor next to bed. Check for obvious cat hairs (has she been sleeping on them for more than 2 nights). Sniff boxers and socks. If not physically repugnant - then wear. Ready to go.

Option 2

Monday morning. Alarm goes off 3 hours earlier. Get up. Check wardrobe. Check mood. Check weather. Check diary. Check fashion magazine. [Repeat x 10 Try on appropriate outfit. Consider if it clashes. Take off outfit. Try on another outfit.] Go to front door. Go back upstairs. [Repeat x 10 Try on appropriate outfit. Consider if it clashes. Take off outfit. Try on another outfit.] Wear outfit you originally put on. Ready to go.

post script to option 2 ......10 minutes later there is unexpected rain. Options are no longer suitable. Return home and repeat whole procedure. End up late for work. Get sack !

[Madrigal]

In general society? Nah, not really. In a group of INTPs? Yeah, we have better things to think about. Seriously, Madrigal, where and how did you come to the conclusion that you're INTP? It's obvious to me that you're something else. No offense; there's no type that's better than any other, but I can tell a lot about someone by the things that they say and care about.
Questioning my identity as an INTP does not justify any of your arguments. Keep trying.

By the way, I like the way that trendy girl in your avatar (oh you know how hot dyed red hair has been - although, it's not that hot anymore...) is pointing a big phallic symbol at herself.

[Star]

Questioning my identity as an INTP does not justify any of your arguments. Keep trying.

By the way, I like the way that trendy girl in your avatar (oh you know how hot dyed red hair has been - although, it's not that hot anymore...) is pointing a big phallic symbol at herself.

Oh noes!

One of the fashionable, popular girls has dissed me! Whatever will I do!

[Madrigal]

Oh noes!

One of the fashionable, popular girls has dissed me! Whatever will I do!
Get rid of the red, it's so yesterday.

[Star]

Get rid of the red, it's so yesterday.
You're only proving my point. ;)

[phrog]

Is there something wrong with wanting to look good? People do it for themselves as well as to project an image. How is that wrong? It isn't if it makes you feel good and/or is functional - but I already went into that. Do you invest any extra time into your apearance when you go out on a date or when you have a job interview? Your last statements sounded absurdly hypocritical.

You are confusing looking good with buying into the fashion industry. I don't wear a clown suit to a funeral, but I also don't care if my funeral suit is a week old or ten years old, as long as it looks ok. The fashion biz is NOT about looking good, or they would tell you to ignore their marketing if you're satisfied with your wardrobe. Fashion biz IS about raising doubts and insecurities about your acceptability, so you'll yield to the pressure. If you let them get away with it, you're their pawn -- maybe a happy pawn, but one nonetheless.

[Madrigal]

Fashion biz IS about raising doubts and insecurities about your acceptability, so you'll yield to the pressure. If you let them get away with it, you're their pawn -- maybe a happy pawn, but one nonetheless.
The purpose of any type of marketing is to make you feel inadequate and insecure, so you'll buy their product. Surely, you brushed your teeth with toothpaste today, and that toothpaste must have a commercial out there that tells you no woman will ever want to talk to you if you don't use it.

[phrog]

I don't choose a toothpaste based on its potential to improve my social life.

[the_stumpycat]

The purpose of any type of marketing is to make you feel inadequate and insecure, so you'll buy their product. Surely, you brushed your teeth with a toothpaste today, and that toothpaste must have a commercial out there that tells you no woman will ever want to talk to you if you don't use it.

As far as I know, my toothpaste is unbranded.

I did brush them this morning - and funnily enough the thought that went through my mind was : "I wonder how many people on here have teeth in as much of a bad state as me because they are so bad at remembering to brush them?"

Last time I went to the dentist (4 months ago) she said I needed 4 fillings and two extractions - as yet I haven't quite got organised enough to book the next appointment.

[Madrigal]

I don't choose a toothpaste based on its potential to improve my social life.
Don't lie. Besides the fact that it's healthy, nobody's gonna talk to you if your breath stinks. Plus, I never reduced fashion to "improving your social life" in the first place.

[joft]

5) Dry sarcasm and deadpan humour are rendered waaay funnier.
someone dressed "nice" who engages in sarcastic humor just comes off as a haughty asshole

[Madrigal]

someone dressed "nice" who engages in sarcastic humor just comes off as a haughty asshole
There is some truth to that.

[phrog]

Many products are marketed without sole reliance on superficialities. If an ad convinces me to replace my computer, it may be due to the promise of faster graphics processing or a better end result.

Fashion can't rely on any real benefits...they don't tell you this year's jacket keeps you warmer than last year's. Hell, they don't even tell you it looks better than last year's, just that it's what you SHOULD want.

[phrog]

Many products are marketed without sole reliance on superficialities. If an ad convinces me to replace my computer, it may be due to the promise of faster graphics processing or a better end result.

Fashion can't rely on any real benefits...they don't tell you this year's jacket keeps you warmer than last year's. Hell, they don't even tell you it looks better than last year's, just that it's what you SHOULD want.

[Madrigal]

Many products are marketed without sole reliance on superficialities. If an ad convinces me to replace my computer, it may be due to the promise of faster graphics processing or a better end result.

Fashion can't rely on any real benefits...they don't tell you this year's jacket keeps you warmer than last year's. Hell, they don't even tell you it looks better than last year's, just that it's what you SHOULD want.
Obviously you have never studied marketing or anything related, because ALL marketing uses a range of ways to manipulate the target market, and that includes preying on people's insecurities, desires, emotions, and fears, among other things.

Plus, telling me something as vague as 'fashion can't rely on any real benefits' proves to me that you haven't read anything that I have said, or haven't cared to process it in your mind. And I just don't feel like repeating myself.

[Wiki]

Do I have lots of company here in being totally bewildered by things like "the latest men's fashions" and the trendy colors of the year. It all seems like a conspiracy by clothing companies, paint companies, etc. Who cares, and how dare they expect me to care? I guess it's a bit annoying, really, when there are so many better ways to spend your time and money.

Ha! Men's Fashion hasnt changed in 100 years. I have to travel the world to find a pair of shoes I really like, so when I do find something unique I buy a few of em, because I'll probably never see it again. My favorite shoes came out of Amsterdam (expensive) and Buenos Aires (inexpensive).

[ApeTheDog]

Do you mean that if you dress trendy, you are a bad judge of character, or see others in a superficial light?
And if you are trendy, are you necessarily - or even usually - engrossed in it to the point of it being detrimental to other things?

No. I do not say that if you dress trendy, you are a bad judge of character, or see others in a superficial light.

First of all, it's not an 'if' - 'then' thing. It's a 'most people who' thing. Like I said before, it does not go for everybody!

Most people who are very much into guns, are people who would have agressive tendencies, though. Most people who are very much obsessed by trains are really docile people who are stuck in an escapist world of their own. Most people who are obsessed by how people look are superficial.

NOT an 'if' - 'then' situation. I totally said that.

Why is it so? Because they judge themselves by how they look. They derrive confidence, and a sense of self-worth from how they look. That's how it goes with all hobbies.

Let me spawn into some more examples here.

People who are really good at firing guns tend to look down on people who aren't good at it at all. People who have been around on an online game for a long time and know what 'rofl' and 'lol' means and can score headshots, will usually look down on people who are new, and call them 'n00bs'. Examples everywhere!

People who look really good, and judge their own looks harshly - put a whole lot of effort and thought into it and expect from themselves that they look flawless - WILL judge other people on those same things as well. Call it a professional flaw if you must. Musicians who have worked hard on getting to play music, will always listen to music in a very critical way - and will tend to like less things than people who just turn on MTV and like whatever.

People who put a lot of effort in looking good, look down on other people who do not go through the same effort. It's human nature! And it is my opinion that it *is* shallow to judge people on how they look.

[C.J.Woolf]

Shorter Ape:

Everybody is a snob about something.

I have no problem with that, provided everybody knows it's only snobbery.

[phrog]

Isn't there a difference between looking good and being trendy? It's the fashion industry and its followers that equate them. I say that you can look good, if you're lucky, with clothes from a thrift shop.

I approve of looking good because it has practical advantages (a biz meeting, for example.) But why care what the marketers say is the current look? If your definition is "looking good" = trendy, you're only making them happy.

[Wiki]

A friend of mine used to buy these $500 designer T-shirts. Fortunately I can look good in the $5 ones. Is there a difference? Yes, about $495 dollars.

[Madrigal]

No. I do not say that if you dress trendy, you are a bad judge of character, or see others in a superficial light.

First of all, it's not an 'if' - 'then' thing. It's a 'most people who' thing. Like I said before, it does not go for everybody!

Most people who are very much into guns, are people who would have agressive tendencies, though. Most people who are very much obsessed by trains are really docile people who are stuck in an escapist world of their own. Most people who are obsessed by how people look are superficial.

NOT an 'if' - 'then' situation. I totally said that.

Why is it so? Because they judge themselves by how they look. They derrive confidence, and a sense of self-worth from how they look. That's how it goes with all hobbies.

Let me spawn into some more examples here.

People who are really good at firing guns tend to look down on people who aren't good at it at all. People who have been around on an online game for a long time and know what 'rofl' and 'lol' means and can score headshots, will usually look down on people who are new, and call them 'n00bs'. Examples everywhere!

People who look really good, and judge their own looks harshly - put a whole lot of effort and thought into it and expect from themselves that they look flawless - WILL judge other people on those same things as well. Call it a professional flaw if you must. Musicians who have worked hard on getting to play music, will always listen to music in a very critical way - and will tend to like less things than people who just turn on MTV and like whatever.

People who put a lot of effort in looking good, look down on other people who do not go through the same effort. It's human nature! And it is my opinion that it *is* shallow to judge people on how they look.


I really liked your train example!

I understand that you are referring to the majority of fashion-concious people, and not everyone.

The thing is, when someone develops fashion sense, they eventually do not need to put too much thought into the way they dress - no more than any fashion-clueless individual that gets up in the morning and picks out his clothes for the day. Knowing what items combine comes naturally. The only thing you have to know in order to be fashion conscious is the general concept behind any one trend. When you understand a concept, everything falls into place. And believe it or not, understanding the concept behind a trend can mean many things, including understanding music, understanding a changing social awareness, understanding a particular sub-culture, or even world events. Surely, some people don't care to understand any of that, and they learn to mimick what they see their social circle is wearing. They may spend a lot of time flipping through fashion magazines and they absorb the trends by reproducing them.

I think that the mainstream, the people you see dressing in the three 'hottest' items on the market, are basically fashion-clueless, despite the number of hours they may spend looking in the mirror and trying things on. That superficial activity is something that most people may enjoy, and decide to fill up their shallow lives that way, who knows? By their conversation, they certainly seem like that. The thing is, they haven't grasped any 'concept', and that is why they dress like shit, no matter how long they spend in front of the mirror.

Most people, in my opinion, are unoriginal and absolutely tasteless in their *mimicking* of trends. Either that or they mostly just don't give a damn. You can tell who is 'trying' and who isn't. You don't even have to have very much money to have taste. If I realize someone is not trying, I'll probably understand that he/she has other things on their mind, and I don't care to critisize their fashion sense because it is evident they simply don't care. But when I see someone walking down the street with the season's items poorly combined in a visually offensive way, I'll probably think "Oh dear, who let you out of the house?" But I won't think much else. Maybe they have other qualities, what do I know?

The thing is, stupid and superficial people are everywhere. I have seen them in the Social Sciences faculty, with their hippy fashion, and I have seen them in the Philosophy faculty, with their bohemian fashion. And I've seen the stupid hipsters at the film Faculty. And the preppy students at the economics faculty. I have talked to punks, goths and other urban tribes. You know what? The density of stupidity in a social circle is basically the same, no matter what they have on.

I have discovered that intelligent people worth talking to are equally hard to find, in any one of these groups.

[Star]

But when I see someone walking down the street with the season's items poorly combined in a visually offensive way, I'll probably think "Oh dear, who let you out of the house?" But I won't think much else. Maybe they have other qualities, what do I know?


It depends on a couple of factors. If you have rather large breasts, please wear a bra. Well, at least in public. No one wants to be slapped by a pair of breasts while walking down the street. Well, I speak for gay boys and straight women, of course. Or, if you have tiny breasts, don't wear a bra. Please. Your not fooling anyone. And, if your blessed with normal "ta-tas," do whatever is comfortable. As long as the shirt doesn't expose too much nipage, your set.

Hmm.

And yes, it's just plain snobbery. I have my own things that I'm a snob about.

[Madrigal]

Hmm.

And yes, it's just plain snobbery. I have my own things that I'm a snob about.

Actually, your ENFP doesn't understand very much about fashion. :P

Anyway, why are you so intent on proving that I'm not an INTP? It doesn't matter for the purposes of this discussion. In any case, understanding underlying concepts in changing trends, recognizing them and analyzing them as part of a broader dynamic as they express themselves in a material form, is something that takes a certain degree of perception and intuitive thinking. So your emphasis on the E and the F have no explanation here whatsoever.

[Star]

Actually, your ENFP doesn't understand very much about fashion. :P

But! He said he speaks for all straight women... :blink:


Anyway, why are you so intent on proving that I'm not an INTP? It doesn't matter for the purposes of this discussion. In any case, understanding underlying concepts in changing trends, recognizing them and analyzing them as part of a broader dynamic as they express themselves in a material form, is something that takes a certain degree of perception and intuitive thinking. So your emphasis on the E and the F have no explanation here whatsoever.

Well, you are right to call me on this. It was impolite. But, when someone asks for a general opinion of how INTPs feel about a topic, and one extremely atypical INTP dominates the conversation, what do you expect? It's not fair to someone who is looking for the general rule. It reminds me of how the Christians flip out when someone says most INTPs are atheists. They are.

Can you admit that it's atypical for an INTP to follow fashion?

[Madrigal]

But! He said he speaks for all straight women... :blink:



Well, you are right to call me on this. It was impolite. But, when someone asks for a general opinion of how INTPs feel about a topic, and one extremely atypical INTP dominates the conversation, what do you expect? It's not fair to someone who is looking for the general rule. It reminds me of how the Christians flip out when someone says most INTPs are atheists. They are.

Can you admit that it's atypical for an INTP to follow fashion?

Based on the INTPs I know, I'd say yes, it's atypical. And this forum seems to confirm it.

My personal interest is in connection with the causes and ideas that are behind trends. I like to take a seemingly arbitrary phenomenon and dissect it to understand why it manifests itself in a certain way. That is actually the same reason I am passionate about politics, psychology and art.

I would think that INTPs, as intuitives and perceivers, would have a tendency towards this type of deconstructive analysis; a natural curiosity about the dialectics behind form and content, appearance and essence.

I also have a great interest in sythesis, I appreciate music, literature, and basically any form of expression that seems to sythesize a moment and place in history - a mindset, a 'spirit' or, to use an overused term, the zeitgeist. Fashion can sometimes be one of those things, and I get some satisfaction from understanding it and being able to personally recreate it on a Saturday night. Would that make me superficial? I think it's the opposite.

[booyalab]

The thing is, when someone develops fashion sense, they eventually do not need to put too much thought into the way they dress - no more than any fashion-clueless individual that gets up in the morning and picks out his clothes for the day. Knowing what items combine comes naturally. The only thing you have to know in order to be fashion conscious is the general concept behind any one trend. When you understand a concept, everything falls into place. And believe it or not, understanding the concept behind a trend can mean many things, including understanding music, understanding a changing social awareness, understanding a particular sub-culture, or even world events. Surely, some people don't care to understand any of that, and they learn to mimick what they see their social circle is wearing. They may spend a lot of time flipping through fashion magazines and they absorb the trends by reproducing them.

This is so true. I dont have to deliberate when I choose clothes to wear in order to look good. I have an innate sense of what looks good on me and what looks good together. In fact I would have to put extra effort into looking less than nice, because it's comes so naturally. And really, fashion is just another aesthetic medium. Would anyone here say that a musician is superficial for wanting the music they play to sound pleasing? I doubt it.

[Madrigal]

This is so true. I dont have to deliberate when I choose clothes to wear in order to look good. I have an innate sense of what looks good on me and what looks good together. In fact I would have to put extra effort into looking less than nice, because it's comes so naturally. And really, fashion is just another aesthetic medium. Would anyone here say that a musician is superficial for wanting the music they play to sound pleasing? I doubt it.

Oh my God. I'm saved! You have my vote for moderator. (Not that voting counts or anything... :P )

[Claverhouse]

Based on the INTPs I know, I'd say yes, it's atypical. And this forum seems to confirm it.

My personal interest is in connection with the causes and ideas that are behind trends. I like to take a seemingly arbitrary phenomenon and dissect it to understand why it manifests itself in a certain way. That is actually the same reason I am passionate about politics, psychology and art.

I would think that INTPs, as intuitives and perceivers, would have a tendency towards this type of deconstructive analysis; a natural curiosity about the dialectics behind form and content, appearance and essence.

I also have a great interest in sythesis, I appreciate music, literature, and basically any form of expression that seems to sythesize a moment and place in history - a mindset, a 'spirit' or, to use an overused term, the zeitgeist. Fashion can sometimes be one of those things, and I get some satisfaction from understanding it and being able to personally recreate it on a Saturday night. Would that make me superficial? I think it's the opposite.

One way to suck the fun out of anything...

But, to be honest, I can think of one intp who would agree with you on the power of deconstruction: so you are not alone.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Madrigal]

But, to be honest, I can think of one intp who would agree with you on the power of deconstruction: so you are not alone.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

I know who you are referring to, and that's the beauty of it!

[floyd]

This is so true. I dont have to deliberate when I choose clothes to wear in order to look good. I have an innate sense of what looks good on me and what looks good together. In fact I would have to put extra effort into looking less than nice, because it's comes so naturally. And really, fashion is just another aesthetic medium. Would anyone here say that a musician is superficial for wanting the music they play to sound pleasing? I doubt it.

even assuming the above to be true, you still need to buy these stylish clothes. since you can't materialize clothes from your mind, you have to find one's that fit your innate superior style sense. last time i checked just like most people are unstylish, most clothing is unstylish. then there is clothes washing and ironing variables. do you own a lint roller? so if you (or madrigal) really always look stylish then you invested more time than you are admiting or you are overestiming your stylishness. i think its possible to look stylish a certain percentage of the time and not invest lots of time. but someone that always looks stylish is sacrificing time and resources to achieve that. what is the purpose and benefit of that expense? the answer to that question determines how superficial you are.

incidently, since you have superior fashion sense, what is your opinion of fishnet stockings?



The only thing you have to know in order to be fashion conscious is the general concept behind any one trend.

so then do you follow trends?

i agree with you that how people dress can say things about them (although i think you maybe overstate how much). but that includes you, if you always look like your outfit was premeditated, then you are somewhat image obsessed, concerned with how you look to others. that is where you come of as an atypical intp (not in your analysis of how others dress). the question is why? fear of being ignored? fear of being less than unique?

[Madrigal]

even assuming the above to be true, you still need to buy these stylish clothes. since you can't materialize clothes from your mind, you have to find one's that fit your innate superior style sense. last time i checked just like most people are unstylish, most clothing is unstylish. then there is clothes washing and ironing variables. do you own a lint roller? so if you (or madrigal) really always look stylish then you invested more time than you are admiting or you are overestiming your stylishness. i think its possible to look stylish a certain percentage of the time and not invest lots of time. but someone that always looks stylish is sacrificing time and resources to achieve that. what is the purpose and benefit of that expense? the answer to that question determines how superficial you are.


Everything we have the option to consume is mostly boring and an insult to human intelligence. Take a look in the bookstores. If I never made any initial effort to understand what I'm looking for, I'd be totally lost in there. But I'm not. I go straight to the section that I know will interest me, and I waste no time. The same happens with food, music and fashion. Even people. It isn't about time spent. We rely on our heightened perception and intuition to know where we will find what we need. If you don't have this ability to discern in your everyday life, then you will most likely be overwhelmed and swallowed whole by mediocrity.


so then do you follow trends?

I don't follow them, I instinctively analyze them and may adopt or reject them on any particular night.

[Madrigal]

i agree with you that how people dress can say things about them (although i think you maybe overstate how much). but that includes you, if you always look like your outfit was premeditated, then you are somewhat image obsessed, concerned with how you look to others. that is where you come of as an atypical intp (not in your analysis of how others dress). the question is why? fear of being ignored? fear of being less than unique?

Most of the things I do are premeditated, unless I've had too many tequilas that night. Just like when I think about something before I say it. However, I don't need to invest that much time in answering you, because I already know what I have to say - same thing goes for fashion and everything else.

[floyd]

do your clothes wash themselves? do you iron them? do you work for the money to buy them? do you expend time going to a store(s)? would you wear the same clothes two days in a row? time is just one variable, but it is a variable. if you look stylish all the time (or attempt to) then you likely invest more time than someone with similar intelligence who is less image preoccupied. is that investment superficial?

[psychic hygiene]

Have never been one to bend to particular "clothes trends". My wardrobe has always consisted of what I deem to be "comfortable attire", which I suppose in some small way reflects my sense of "self" and my "values".
My daughter, very much an ESFJ, always categorized me as "bohemian". She has lately made me aware that "my choice of style" (or as she in the past continually referred to it, "my serious lack of fashion sense") has become the current "fashion" trend.. she is now raiding my wardrobe - the originals!
I guess it took 20 years for the rest of society to finally catch up to this here "trend setter"!

[Madrigal]

do your clothes wash themselves? do you iron them? do you work for the money to buy them? do you expend time going to a store(s)? would you wear the same clothes two days in a row? time is just one variable, but it is a variable. if you look stylish all the time (or attempt to) then you likely invest more time than someone with similar intelligence who is less image preoccupied. is that investment superficial?
Are you telling me you don't wash your clothes? Or iron them? Or even buy them? Do they just magically appear in your closet? Or does your mother give you something blue for your birthday every year? I don't get where you're going with those questions at all!

I told you I don't have to invest any more time than anyone in finding stylish clothes for myself. Yes, I must buy clothes, and for that, I must pay for them. Yes, with my own money. There is no 'Madrigal's Stylish Clothes' charity, last time I checked. You are free to start one. I think your dollars may come in handy. Until then, I must buy them myself. Because people that give me clothes as gifts have awful taste - Auntie María means well, but that orange tank-top just won't do! At least my grandmother has the discretion to only buy me underwear. Yes, one time they read 'ring my bell', but she doesn't speak English so I can't blame ol' granny for that.

[Helios]

Anyway, why are you so intent on proving that I'm not an INTP? It doesn't matter for the purposes of this discussion.

Great question! Something that happens enough around here I really think it should be considered. Firstly lets review some points about the iconic INTP


INTP invariably seeks to withdraw, at least in spirit, from the situation being considered. This detachment can sometimes be so marked that he will readily see himself as a neutral observer having no personal association with that going on around him (unless forced to become directly involved through an attack on his principles)

So, if now you had a so-called INTP who habitually forms or voices unkind, esp. moralistic opinions of others. You'd have to question if they really were a 'P' themselves, since they are acting out the very definition of judgemental!

You really are pushing the limits of this INTP profile if your 'principles' (or hot button issues) Include everything from fashion to the internet forum social structure, to feminism and 9/11. Contrast this broad pattern with an personalized 'principle' such as an INTP who takes an antagonistic stance toward NT women. But really doesn't get combative about much else.

If you have a person who makes wide rangeing moralistic opinions of others as a standard MO, you are dealing with a hardcore J, since they are extroverting their T or F, not their N (or S). In addition if said person seems to lean more toward passionate or even emotion side in their statements, rather than a detached analytical one, you may also have someone who lingers near the T/F axis. (note recent thread on how INFJ can seem like INTP)


Briefly touching on the 'fashion thing', and by extention "extroversion" in general. It is odd that most here fail to remember that an INTP's 2nd strongest function is Ne, which is ideally suited for the creation and enjoyment of style, regardless if it is art,cloths,music, or whatever. I suspect that this is largely based on the demographics of the forum, mostly younger males. Rather than reject growth and cling to the one dimensional Ti, develope yourself! Play with you Ne, hell be really daring and confess you even have Si! There is no glory is refusing to push yourself! Shall I stop-up my ears, because I am vision based animal? Or maybe I could rip out my tongue? Why do you rejoice in, and celibrate your self-inflicted and artificial handicap? (and worse yet, condemn those who don't)

[Star]

Contrast this broad pattern with an personalized 'principle' such as an INTP who takes an antagonistic stance toward NT women. But really doesn't get combative about much else.

o rly? You don't remember when we first met? (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=2652)

[psychic hygiene]

Great question! Something that happens enough around here I really think it should be considered. Firstly lets review some points about the iconic INTP



So, if now you had a so-called INTP who habitually forms or voices unkind, esp. moralistic opinions of others. You'd have to question if they really were a 'P' themselves, since they are acting out the very definition of judgemental!

You really are pushing the limits of this INTP profile if your 'principles' (or hot button issues) Include everything from fashion to the internet forum social structure, to feminism and 9/11. Contrast this broad pattern with an personalized 'principle' such as an INTP who takes an antagonistic stance toward NT women. But really doesn't get combative about much else.

If you have a person who makes wide rangeing moralistic opinions of others as a standard MO, you are dealing with a hardcore J, since they are extroverting their T or F, not their N (or S). In addition if said person seems to lean more toward passionate or even emotion side in their statements, rather than a detached analytical one, you may also have someone who lingers near the T/F axis. (note recent thread on how INFJ can seem like INTP)


Briefly touching on the 'fashion thing', and by extention "extroversion" in general. It is odd that most here fail to remember that an INTP's 2nd strongest function is Ne, which is ideally suited for the creation and enjoyment of style, regardless if it is art,cloths,music, or whatever. I suspect that this is largely based on the demographics of the forum, mostly younger males. Rather than reject growth and cling to the one dimensional Ti, develope yourself! Play with you Ne, hell be really daring and confess you even have Si! There is no glory is refusing to push yourself! Shall I stop-up my ears, because I am vision based animal? Or maybe I could rip out my tongue? Why do you rejoice in, and celibrate your self-inflicted and artificial handicap? (and worse yet, condemn those who don't)Helios, is having to "prove" your intp flavour an intrinsic component of this forum?

How on earth can this "intp nature" possibly be measured by others when first and foremost, it is necessary to extend/stretch beyond your comfort zone of your "at rest intp nature", in order even to push yourself into bothering to respond to a post to interact here? By interacting within this forum, aren't we by participating in this very exchange, going outside our "natural intp comfort zone"?

EDIT: I am only ever me, with or without the intp tag. Knowing the intp qualities that I need to overcome gives me a better understanding as to why I react to certain things. Life isn't being an intp or the ability to identify with another type, life can be understood (at least on some personal level) if you can take the time to understand your scope of vision and more importantly (at least to me) its inherent restrictions to the scope that life actually is. And I know I suck at embracing currently popular trends - I prefer making my own and experimenting with them to see how they fit the "current" me!

[Helios]

o rly? You don't remember when we first met? (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=2652)


Uh, yeah.....forgive me, but I as missing your point. Are you framing me as antagonistic, closed minded, or just goofy and insecure?

[Helios]

Helios, is having to "prove" your intp flavour an intrinsic component of this forum?




Sadly, it would seem that way sometimes.

[Star]

Uh, yeah.....forgive me, but I as missing your point. Are you framing me as antagonistic, closed minded, or just goofy and insecure?
As screamingly atypical. You're one of our more obvious ... "exceptions."

[Helios]

As screamingly atypical. You're one of our more obvious ... "exceptions."


Ok fair enough, whatever. But, my status relates to the point of so-called Ps displaying heavy J-ish tendencies how?




*did that pot just call me black?*

[Star]

Ok fair enough, whatever. But, my status relates to the point of so-called Ps displaying heavy J-ish tendencies how?
Actually I pointed that out to prove to you that I do not target NT women. That's why I quoted that one little bit of your own text, and responded to it with the link. Try reading before.. emoting. ;)

[Helios]

Actually I pointed that out to prove to you that I do not target NT women. That's why I quoted that one little bit of your own text, and responded to it with the link. Try reading before.. emoting. ;)

edit-*for clarity I'll bold the you that is directed toward you, and skip those that are general comments, since I guess you can't read my mind and tell what I was thinking at that moment :D



Baby girl, this isn't all about you, and if you weren't so fast to emote yourself you may have caught that. However, to be fair it (that refrence) is rooted in events that took place during your sabbatical from this place.


I was alluding to this other person as a counter point, someone who has an exact issue (a lame one, but an issue none the less), but doesn't show a wide pattern. Where as it seems you take issue with a wide range of subjects and people. Add to this the passion you seem to attach to these values and it strikes me as an INxJ.

Not that this means much, but just commenting on the subject you brought up.


edit-my concern about the environment of the forum, due to this fetish for one dimensional thinking did not start with you, or even this thread.

See

http://intpcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=214483&postcount=14

Those who's Ne,Si, or even Fe, (not me, my Fe sucks ass) are more advanced shouldn't feel that they are some how a corruption from pure the race. Having Ne is an advancement, not a failure!

Even more insulting is the disrespect that many show toward those with experiances that vary from their own. Even among those of the same type the varied experiances will create widely differing folks. Just because you can't or won't relate to this or that person's point of view doesn't invalidate there INTP-ness. This would be questioned only, by a pattern of actions or behavoir that in a wide range of circumstance go outside the the normal range of INTP action. (being broadly judgemental for example) OTH an interest in fashion,art, and having some socail contacts does not. Even if it wasn't in their personal interest, wouldn't a true NP see the dark side of the moon?



edit number 35



But! He said he speaks for all straight women... :blink:



It reminds me of how the Christians flip out when someone says most INTPs are atheists. They are.


Uh oh, watch out, you seem to be speaking for all INTPs


http://forums.intpcentral.com/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=607


Incorectly, I might add.

[Snowflake]

I don't really follow trends. I mean, how do you follow a trend, anyway?

It takes effort, just like anything else, I suppose, and I have more important things to expound my time on. Certainly, though, not following a trend does not mean you wear ugly clothes.

I find I generally dress pretty well in the clothes I have, but of course, it's a very subjective thing, and not everyone may agree with that. To each his own.

[Star]

Helios, if you're so oppressed, as a nontypical INTP on a type forum, why not start another thread about it. If it were me, I'd question my type, and MBTI altogether, and probably move on to other things.

Anyway, I said why it bothered me in the context of this thread, already:


But, when someone asks for a general opinion of how INTPs feel about a topic, and one extremely atypical INTP dominates the conversation, what do you expect?

Also:



Uh oh, watch out, you seem to be speaking for all INTPs
http://forums.intpcentral.com/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=607
Incorectly, I might add.

This is a bad habit of mine, lumping agnostics and atheists together.

[Helios]

Helios, if you're so oppressed, as a nontypical INTP on a type forum, why not start another thread about it. If it were me, I'd question my type, and MBTI altogether, and probably move on to other things.

Anyway, I said why it bothered me in the context of this thread, already:






Ok, so you didn't like Mad talking about cloths so much in the thread, that is fair enough. I am sorta not sure how me clarifing my prior statement (which had been totally, albeit understandably, confused) constitutes me expressing myself as a victim of oppresion.

Besides, the link I gave was, in short, a post to thank the various folks here who so accurately express my thoughts, or who echo my experiances. I am sorry if my expression of fraternity, was mistaken for one of oppresion! But, then again perhaps all those people should be questioning their type as well?


If there was an alludding to oppression, it was a general statement about how this exact type of actions retards the forum. Look at this thread! What was a lively discussion about fashion, and threads prior to this, that has died. Why? Because you took issue with M liking clothes and talking about it too much?

There are various reasons I think you of all people could be labeled a atypical INTP.



INTPs are relatively easy-going and amenable to most anything until their principles are violated, about which they may become outspoken and inflexible. They prefer to return, however, to a reserved albeit benign ambiance, not wishing to make spectacles of themselves


Are you ever easy-going,amenable, to anything, ever?!


Like I pointed out before, some people here have their "principles" that if you step on them, they'll go off. But in the context of a wide range of issues this clause will not fit.


But I'll be frank with you, none of this bothers me. So you're maybe a bit J-ish in your online persona, I may seem more E, regardless, no one know how we act IRL. What is really offesive is your hypocrisy.

A quick and easy example. You called Div's b/f the ENFP on speaking for all women, and doing such inaccuratly no less. Then just a few posts later , you yourself speak as the voice of all INTPs! Innaccuratly as well!

Now I am not going to focus on the error in the data, that is of no concern. What is, is the fact that someone would condemn and belittle someone for an action and then turn around and do the same themself.


Beyond that I could care less what you do,say,or emote. Perhaps next time you go to slam someone for speaking out of their place, or you go to call into question someone's type, maybe it would serve you well to look inward at yourself first, besides if you really are primarly a Ti, this should come natural.

[Madrigal]

If there was an alluding to oppression, it was a general statement about how this exact type of action retards the forum. Look at this thread! What was a lively discussion about fashion, and threads prior to that has died. Why?

This is an important point to raise. It warrants its own thread.

Much too often, I see that someone may be attempting to argue a point, and instead of that person being responded to with clear and thought-out arguments, someone will jump, blinded by prejudice, and accuse the deviant INTP of not adhering to the Holy Type. Somehow, it seems as if all other types were inferior to ours, and any sneaking suspicion that someone may be straying from that profile, would invalidate their entire argument.

On this particular thread, I expected some more challenging discussion on why people have this aversion to fashion. But I have only seen that most people project their frustrations with the 'mass' onto any visible symptom of belonging with that mass. And they aren't looking too far into it. The level of pedantry on this forum, the idea that we are a social elite, is very strong. I suppose we are all somewhat pedantic, and that may stem from our despise for the 'heard of cattle' that is the mainstream.

Fashion can be immediately associated with an adherence to the mainstream, to their way of life, and their values - because of its visibility. Because people will make an effort to look like everybody else. That is not what fashion is supposed to be about; someone that likes fashion is willing to express something with it. Even when what is being expressed originates from a shared social condition, a social atmosphere, a shared moment in history - which is what I think is fascinating about trends - there are millions of ways to express that in your own individual way, and still be radiating that underlying social condition that prompts a trend. Still having been able to grasp and synthesize it, elaborate it from your own point of view, assuming a position on it.

But as I said, most people don't have much of a clue about fashion in the first place, and they don't care to understand the processes that produce this type of expression. Essentially, the entire beauty of the underlying mechanism - the materialization of a mood, a moment, an ideology, whatever - is overlooked by the mainstream. What most people essentially do is view it on a superficial level and copy what they see without questioning it. They might not stop to think that a piece of History has seeped into the clothes they have on.

And the discussion here has shown me that your points of view on fashion seem to be no less superficial than those of the mainstream, that views fashion in that superficial light. Disassociating it from it's sources. Emptying it of any meaning.

Discussing this issue has just shown me how prejudiced people can be on this subject, and how much more they are willing to project a fixed mindset onto a discussion, than to have the discussion influence their minds, so the mind can do something new with it.

And even worse, just as it is easy to immediately discard someone's interest in fashion as a weak adherence to a heard of cattle, it is also very easy to immediately discard an argument on the basis of that person not pertaining to the Chosen Ones of INTP Central - meaning that their arguments will inevitably be weak. How is any of that legitimate at all?

It is bullshit.

And now I'm gonna buy myself that glittery pink scarf I saw yesterday.

[distraction tactics]

...

Pink? How completely feminine.

My distaste for fashion stems from a dislike for the 'herd' mentality, but only in that the targets of my derision fail to recognize that they are inferior to me.

-Holy crap, that's a lot of frickin D's-

Which of course, raises the pointed question, "Maybe they AREN'T?", whereupon I start feeling insecure and disappointed I'm making such stupid judgements when I could be thinking about something cool.

Plus, being in tune with fashion suggests being in tune with the world, and no one should be more in tune with the world than me. Not being in tune might suggest I'm not completely in control - and that is a scary thought.

Nonetheless, I have my own uniform given the music scene I frequent.

[nottaprettygal]

Madrigal, I agree with your above statement.

I just got a chance to browse through this thread, so I'm probably repeating some things.

I like fashion. Granted, I'm not always wearing the trendiest clothes, but it interests me. When I glance at high fashion, I see it as a form of art. Clothes are about self-expression, and whether you're decked out in Uggs and mini-skirt or a ratty, old t-shirt and holey jeans, you're making a statement about yourself. It's inevitable (unless you're a nudest...then that's a whole other statement).

When I look nice (at least according to my standards) people treat me better, and I feel better about myself. If that makes me a conformist or superficial, so be it. Besides, one could claim that all who have so quickly expressed their disdain towards the fashionably inclined are guilty of superficiality themselves...superficial knowledge.

[Leftfield]

Madrigal, I agree with your above statement.

I just got a chance to browse through this thread, so I'm probably repeating some things.

I like fashion. Clothes are about self-expression, and whether you're decked out in Uggs and mini-skirt or a ratty, old t-shirt and holey jeans, you're making a statement about yourself.

Word.

I personally have gone through a fashion change from HS to college to Europe and it has grown to me as part of my identity. I took very seriously which clothes I purchased while in Europe primarily because no one would have it back in the States, but yet is still very fashionable, especially to the standard American. And yes, I do have specific shoes to go with certain clothes because I was taught as a freshman how this all works, and I have also learned about how "image is everything" in a professional image lecture of a prof. speaking class.

This is just as idiosyncratic/non-conformist as not following a trend, starting my own wave, having my own vintage European clothes, my own tailored image which no one else can have...

[phrog]

Madrigal, as the perpetrator of this thread, I have to applaud your last post. I learned something from it, and I have to admit that part of my feelings about fashion arose from ignorance. If one agrees that it's a form of self-expression, one can't denigrate self-expression without also condemning literature, art, music....and ideas are borrowed, adapted, and copied in those forms all the time. Hmm....

Some of this has practical application for me. I attend meetings with university administrators, and some of the men are always impeccably dressed. Really dazzling. They inspire confidence immediately. I'd like to achieve that, for the business benefits, but I don't really know how.

For example, I wonder how much attention they pay to fashion. My hunch is that they simply spend a lot on clothes -- their shirts are probably at least $50 each -- and they replace every item long before it wears out. Maybe they'll wear a shirt 20 times and toss it. With that frequency, they wouldn't even need to think about fashion...everything would be up-to-date automatically. I'm sure they do think about their "look" and what's most flattering.

I'm just guessing about all this. Someday I'll just have to ask one of them how he does it, and if it requires spending a fortune.

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

sidenote for Phrog (edit: completely useless commentary and unsolicited, unhelpful advice ahead).....I think it's possible to look good without spending a fortune. I've noticed that guys do this more often, though. Many of my guy friends pick the worst times to shop, freak out like a deer in headlights, and sprint for the nearest Nordstrom or BR, where they'll pay much more than they have to. Or they wait until their one white collared shirt has holes in it to find a new one. Anticipating what you need, waiting for sales, and having a little bit of patience can go a long way. Figuring out what you can buy at Target helps, too. Plus, you have an advantage in that men's fashion doesn't change THAT much.

And for the sake of all of us who appreciate fashion as a facet of self-expression, figure out what works for you. Just don't be a lemming. ;)

[cjs55]

Or, for the sake of people like me, stop judging everyone inappropriately by their clothing! (it runs both ways). Any such judgment of me beyond the 'doesn't get fashion' one would be misinformed.

And I certainly don't ask everyone to appreciate any of the self-expression that I do. Seems ridiculous to assume that everyone should 'get it'. Nor do I ask that everyone try to compose metal or classical music, and if you aren't composing metal or classical music, you damn well should be, for my sake.

[Slider]

I really detest the new way drapes are being hanged, much too long and dragging the ground. It is not chic. It looks cheap and sloppy, like they didn't measure and just bought some nasty, generic curtains from wal-mart.

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

Or, for the sake of people like me, stop judging everyone inappropriately by their clothing! (it runs both ways). Any such judgment of me beyond the 'doesn't get fashion' one would be misinformed.

And I certainly don't ask everyone to appreciate any of the self-expression that I do. Seems ridiculous to assume that everyone should 'get it'. Nor do I ask that everyone try to compose metal or classical music, and if you aren't composing metal or classical music, you damn well should be, for my sake.


Whoa, there. I was teasing, not threatening judgment. And my comments were only in the context of "If fashion consciousness is something you want to pursue, figure out what you really like." Much as I would say, "If writing is the way you choose to express yourself, find your own voice."

Also, I'm not insisting that you "get it." Recognition of something as a form of self-expression is very different from appreciation of or participation in that form of self-expression.

[Helios]

Or, for the sake of people like me, stop judging everyone inappropriately by their clothing! (it runs both ways). Any such judgment of me beyond the 'doesn't get fashion' one would be misinformed.

And I certainly don't ask everyone to appreciate any of the self-expression that I do. Seems ridiculous to assume that everyone should 'get it'. Nor do I ask that everyone try to compose metal or classical music, and if you aren't composing metal or classical music, you damn well should be, for my sake.


Great counter point! I think however what you are seeing is a reaction to the prior postitions that no one should attempt to compose or even admire " metal or classical music", because doing such was buying into some commercialized "sensor" conspiracy.

The only point is just like art, music or any other form of expression, style can be something organic and creative, or it can be mass produced shit for lemmings to consume. But those condeming ALL style and fashion are merely showing they don't have the N to see past the mass produced images.

[cjs55]

Whoa, there. I was teasing, not threatening judgment. And my comments were only in the context of "If fashion consciousness is something you want to pursue, figure out what you really like." Much as I would say, "If writing is the way you choose to express yourself, find your own voice."

Also, I'm not insisting that you "get it." Recognition of something as a form of self-expression is very different from appreciation of or participation in that form of self-expression.

Sorry, totally misread the context/tone of the last sentence there.

Although I'm having some trouble with how seriously fashion could be taken as a means of self-expression. Unless you actually make your clothes yourself, I'm thinking it's more along of the lines of listening to a kind of music than actually making a kind of music yourself. Because you are adopting what other's have created. Certainly there is a bit more, because you are adopting it in unique ways that are creative. But there is much less self-expression involved in listening to music than making it. And much less you can learn about someone. And I'm thinking that fashion is closer to the former than the latter, again, unless you actually make your own clothes.

[cjs55]

Sorry, totally misread the context/tone of the last sentence there.

[quote]
Great counter point! I think however what you are seeing is a reaction to the prior postitions that no one should attempt to compose or even admire " metal or classical music", because doing such was buying into some commercialized "sensor" conspiracy.

The only point is just like art, music or any other form of expression, style can be something organic and creative, or it can be mass produced shit for lemmings to consume. But those condeming ALL style and fashion are merely showing they don't have the N to see past the mass produced images.

Hmm.

I'm having some trouble with how seriously fashion could be taken as a means of self-expression. Unless you actually make your clothes yourself, I'm thinking it's more along of the lines of listening to a kind of music than actually making a kind of music yourself. Because you are adopting what other's have created. Certainly there is a bit more, because you are adopting it in unique ways that are creative. But there is much less self-expression involved in listening to music than making it. And much less you can learn about someone. And I'm thinking that fashion is closer to the former than the latter, again, unless you actually make your own clothes.

[phrog]

CJS, isn't the artwork I choose for my home a form of self-expression? Tho I didn't create it, it does reflect my tastes and outlook. And, in a way, the overall collection and placement of items is my creation.

[ryanv4]

Or, for the sake of people like me, stop judging everyone inappropriately by their clothing! (it runs both ways). Any such judgment of me beyond the 'doesn't get fashion' one would be misinformed.

And I certainly don't ask everyone to appreciate any of the self-expression that I do. Seems ridiculous to assume that everyone should 'get it'. Nor do I ask that everyone try to compose metal or classical music, and if you aren't composing metal or classical music, you damn well should be, for my sake.

But people will judge you on your clothes. Often times, if we don't have a chance to interact with someone, it's the only thing we have to go on - I don't know about you, but it's nearly impossible for me to not form any opinion or thought on something I have observed. Now, with that being said, tolerance would depend on how much weight you give things such as clothes once you've had a chance to gather more information.

As far as clothes being a form of self expression - I think the error in analogy to music comes from the fact that we don't generally buy complete outfits. Generally we can mix and match items to form our own style. Two people could buy the same shirt but wear it totally different ways.

It is only shallow people who do not judge by appearances. The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible. - Oscar Wilde

[cjs55]

Making hypothesis' as to why someone wears something is fine. But any idea that you can have a good judgement about someone's personally by their consumeristic tendencies, including creativity, is misplaced.

As far as people judging me on my clothing, it's certainly going to happen, and I actually use it to my advantage by weeding out people who don't want to talk to me because I don't make much of an effort with my clothes. Certainly not paying attention to style whatsoever is a message as well. Although it's a message that says: 'I reject your system of judgement and individuality.'


From David's West book on contintental philosophy (talking about the current social movement that I reject):

"Culture is both less separate and more pervasive. Postmodern culture invades society. Not only is consumption increasingly defined in cultural terms, but culture itself has also been commodified to an unprecedented extent. In the age of mechanical reproduction works of art are more and more subject to market forces. At the same time, commodities in general are advertised as works of art. The consumer is encouraged to fashion for himself a unique identity through individualized acts of consumption, which are made to resemble the creative activity of the artist. "

It's pretty much the same as showing off your cd collection to your friends, or hanging art on your walls: 'Look at this collection! Doesn't this show my great individuality? Aren't I so creative and unique?'

Hell no. The only reliable thing that it tells the observer is that you want to show off to the world these things that you bought. It doesn't tell the observer why you bought them, nor does it show any great creative strength to consume in an 'individualized' way.

[phrog]

It's pretty much the same as showing off your cd collection to your friends, or hanging art on your walls: 'Look at this collection! Doesn't this show my great individuality? Aren't I so creative and unique?'

But what if the art I choose or the music on my iPod is never shared with others? Doesn't it take some independence of thought to choose things that are totally outside the mainstream, rather than buying into whatever's popular at the moment?

[cjs55]

How hard is it to be unique through choice of iPod music? Is it independence of thought, or is it conformity of thought? Even if you have iPod music that no one else has...a million others could boast the same. And will.

Just because you are different in your choice of art, tells the viewer nothing about why you chose said art.

Personally, I give much more weight to someone who has a consistent theme to their choice in art, rather than the person who simply wishes to be unique in their consumerism.

[phrog]

Why do you see this as an attempt to communicate or boast? I guess it's the same as fashion...some of us don't care what others think, or would rather not know. The viewer of my art and listener to my music is ME!

[Madrigal]

Making hypothesis' as to why someone wears something is fine. But any idea that you can have a good judgement about someone's personally by their consumeristic tendencies, including creativity, is misplaced.

People are a lot more than what they wear, of course. Just as they are a lot more than what they say, or a lot more than what they do. No single facet can represent you completely. I don't think anything can. Whether appearances offer more or less insight into someone's personality is a matter of opinion. I would say that you can gather more insight into someone's mind in a variety of other ways. Still doesn't mean that the way you choose to look can be disassociated from who you are.


As far as people judging me on my clothing, it's certainly going to happen, and I actually use it to my advantage by weeding out people who don't want to talk to me because I don't make much of an effort with my clothes. Certainly not paying attention to style whatsoever is a message as well. Although it's a message that says: 'I reject your system of judgement and individuality.'.

Among other possible messages, I can certainly believe it.


From David's West book on contintental philosophy (talking about the current social movement that I reject):

"Culture is both less separate and more pervasive. Postmodern culture invades society. Not only is consumption increasingly defined in cultural terms, but culture itself has also been commodified to an unprecedented extent. In the age of mechanical reproduction works of art are more and more subject to market forces. At the same time, commodities in general are advertised as works of art. The consumer is encouraged to fashion for himself a unique identity through individualized acts of consumption, which are made to resemble the creative activity of the artist. "

I never read this book, but I think I can recognize some influence by Adorno. Yes, after the Second World War, artistic production underwent mass reproduction like never before. Everyone could own a copy of artictic items, which included music, painting, sculpture, literature and others. This trend of cultural massification was perceived even before the beginning of the Postmodern Era, although the economic boom of the Post-war favoured this mass production and consumption of cultural items.

It is also true that commodities are advertied as works of art. There is an age-old question here regarding art, which we are not going to solve on INTPC, which is, 'what is art?' I study at the Architecture, Design and Urbanism Faculty of the University of Buenos Aires, and I have heard different opinions from my professors on whether architecture is art, for instance. There is one stance that claims that when something is 'functional', it cannot be considered art, and that would include industrial design, architecture, fashion, commercials, etc. It does not matter how much creativity and talent is invested in those activities: art is viewed as strictly an 'end in itself', not a means for marketing a product, covering your body, or serving tea, etc.

If you are going to insist on fashion not being art, you'll just have to tackle this question and define art for yourself. Personally, I don't think this is the thread to do that in. I myself never brought up the 'art' question, I have been very clear about my opinion and this is an element that does not alter that opinion.


It's pretty much the same as showing off your cd collection to your friends, or hanging art on your walls: 'Look at this collection! Doesn't this show my great individuality? Aren't I so creative and unique?'

Aren't we mixing 'creativity' and 'individuality' with 'art'? Because I don't think it's the same thing at all. Too many discussions are being mixed into this.


Hell no. The only reliable thing that it tells the observer is that you want to show off to the world these things that you bought. It doesn't tell the observer why you bought them, nor does it show any great creative strength to consume in an 'individualized' way.

This is just an opinion with no real basis, or if there is one, you have kept it to yourself. So by consuming products that we feel can somehow express a part of our mood/personality, we only seek to 'show off'? Okay, well, you certainly lowered the level of debate since your quote from that David West book. :D


EDIT: Knowing your tendencies, I'm asking you not to shower me with quotes in your reply (if you reply) - I don't do it myself, and I don't really have that kind of time.

[Dom]

I buy Clothes I like.

Though I accept guidence on this from other people, friends, family, who have to be around me, why because I dont' really care much or though I'd prefer to look good than bad, it doesn't bother me either way, they important people in my life remain important, whether i'm wearing labels or my signature grey oversized tea-shirt and blue jeans. I accpet ehir guidence because they spend time with me, I don't want my significant other to be embarssed by me. Even though I dont' understand why it's embarssing. I do not buy clothes I don't like, even if someone says they make me look like Robbie Williams or any other male sex symbol!

I buy music I like.

And again accept gudience cos I like to try new things, I have an incredable eclectic ranging from Aerosmith to Paul simon, Via Kaiser Cheifs, Sting and Billy joel. I don't buy music I don't like regardless of who reconmends it.

I buy art I like.

Ok by this i meaning, books, prints, film etc I can't afford to go and buy traditional art or modern art!

What I'm saying is I buy/wear/listen too things I like. I'm not boasting, making a point, protesting, concously expressing myself, or sayign anything by what I wear.

I'm not showing off, or being pushed about by comercial soicety. I'm jsut being me.