Tookie Williams

[PsiKik]

California’s Governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger has denied clemency to former gang leader Stanley "Tookie" Williams.
What's the point in killing Tookie? He's already been there for 24 years! The State has already taken his life. They're not gaining anything by killing him. What they're doing is sending a message to every poor black kid in California that it doesn't matter what they do; they can't change their circumstances. Ann B - from the BBC website http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4523502.stm

[the_stumpycat]

What they're doing is sending a message to every poor black kid in California that it doesn't matter what they do; they can't change their circumstances.


........although not killing people would be a start.

[PiccoloNamek]

What they're doing is sending a message to every poor black kid in California that it doesn't matter what they do; they can't change their circumstances.

I don't get it. What does Tookie's death have to do with poor black kids changing their circumstances?

[PsiKik]

I don't get it. What does Tookie's death have to do with poor black kids changing their circumstances?

I think the argument is that there is no such thing as redemption or forgiveness so don't even bother.
Williams is perceived by many as having done anti-gang work from inside prison.

After reading more about the case, I am strangely neutral. I oppose the death penalty in principle, but I agree with those who doubt his sincerity - he never co-operated with police in dealing with the gangs and never renounced his membership.

[PiccoloNamek]

The point is that you shouldn't do anything that causes you to need redemption or forgiveness in the first place.

[garak]

I don't like the death penalty, but I don't see why this guy should get a ticket out of it just because he's famous (and has even more famous friends). And you know damn well that's the only reason we're even talking about him.

[eyebyte_atWork]

I think the argument is that there is no such thing as redemption or forgiveness so don't even bother.

Funny you say that - I was watching a show last night - about these two guys who are former house thieves who now break into houses to expose weak security (the home owners get a free security upgrade for their trouble). For this they get a show and a nice salary. It seems to me that redemption is there for some and not others (gotta be entertained - and it does not hurt that these guys are young, charismatic, and white). I think the line is drawn when there is violence involved. Oh - there was that other guy... from that movie - "Catch Me if you can" (Frank Abagnale)- that guy is now a well paid consultant for the banking industry. He found redemption (Cha-Ching!).


I do not know much about the tookie case except what I have seen in the blurbs let out recently - I did not even see the movie Jamie Fox made. I cannot say whether the death penalty is warranted or deserved in his case - but I CAN say is that I have no clue to this man's character - whether this man poses an ongoing threat to society. If he does -then fry him - if not then rehab him.

Just my two cents.

[eyebyte_atWork]

I don't like the death penalty, but I don't see why this guy should get a ticket out of it just because he's famous (and has even more famous friends). And you know damn well that's the only reason we're even talking about him.


Yeah - that is the only reason we're talking about him - we are sheep.

[PlayerOfGames]

I don't believe in the death penalty, but I *do* think that people should face the consequences for their actions, no matter what they do or who they become afterwords - if this guy did enough to get the death penalty, I assume he did enough to get life in prison.

[Arcades]

The death penalty has its place.... FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE KILLED OTHER PEOPLE!!! They made the choice to take another life. Not in self defence, or by some mistake. 24 years ago a jury convicted him of willfuly killing people and requested death for his crimes. My question is why has it been 24 years and he is still alive?

[kendoiwan]

The death penalty has its place.... FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE KILLED OTHER PEOPLE!!! They made the choice to take another life. Not in self defence, or by some mistake. 24 years ago a jury convicted him of willfuly killing people and requested death for his crimes. My question is why has it been 24 years and he is still alive?


BULLSHIT!!! Damer got life, the unibomber got life, Manson got life, Cops kill unarmed minorities all the time and get let off without serving any time and I can continue... society values white lives differently than black lives...

Also don't talk about life without parole like it's some kind of slap on the wrist...

And furthermore the facts of his case are far from open and shut, he was convicted moreso for who he was (gang leader) than any compelling case against him... and his jury was all white, not exactly he "peers". There is a mountain of evidence to suggest he wasn't the perpetraitor. There was tons of misconduct on the part of the D.A and police. Finger prints found on the crime scene not his, boot print of the killer, not his, handwriting of the killer, not his, and i can continue...

But that aside for all who doubt he's sincerity, he brokered the peace treaty between the bloods and crips, wrote childrens books encouraging kids do better than he did, wrote a protocol to help people avoid or escape gang life, and in the process he put his life at risk by doing so. And if it was all an act then why is it he went to his grave proclaiming his innocence when "owing up to the crime and expressing remorse" would have bought him the clemency he sought.

[SensEye]

The death penalty has its place.... FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE KILLED OTHER PEOPLE!!! They made the choice to take another life. Not in self defence, or by some mistake. 24 years ago a jury convicted him of willfuly killing people and requested death for his crimes. My question is why has it been 24 years and he is still alive?Agreed.

In response to Kendo's contention that there is a race angle, that may be true, but the answer is to execute more white murderers, not to excuse more minority murderers.

[eyebyte_atWork]

There was a New York Times article I read a year or two ago - about how the Dallas D.A.'s office likes to load juries in criminal cases with all white jurors. THey cited that minority jurors tended to identify with the person on trial. There is a near 100% conviction rate when the person on trial is black and the penalties are usually stiffer - I guess the public interest is being served.

Like I have said - I do not know about the tookie situation - I would like to know more - So I will refrain from commenting too much on his particular situation. I would hate to bash an innocent guy or insult the victims of a guilty one.

[kendoiwan]

Also don't talk about life without parole like it's some kind of slap on the wrist...

And furthermore the facts of his case are far from open and shut... his jury was all white, not exactly he "peers". There is a mountain of evidence to suggest he wasn't the perpetraitor. There was tons of misconduct on the part of the D.A and police. Finger prints found on the crime scene were not his, boot print of the killer, not his, handwriting of the killer, not his, and i can continue...



Evidence like this would free a white man...

[sbw]

Evidence like this would free a white man...

dude, you're quoting yourself!

Scott

[the_stumpycat]

BULLSHIT!!! Damer got life, the unibomber got life, Manson got life, Cops kill unarmed minorities all the time and get let off without serving any time and I can continue... society values white lives differently than black lives...



There's two issues here - and I don't know the case.

First issue is - you've done a crime and got given a life penalty - does repenting when you're in jail mean you should get reduced to life? Personally I couldn't care less if they die or are in prison for life - but I guess some could.

Second issue is - would he get off if he's white ? As I say, I don't know the case, don't know the US system, and don't know the answer - and to a certain extent it doesn't matter. To me, the fact that we are debating whether a man would be killed if he was white proves the point that there are serious race issues with American culture (there are for the UK too) which have to be addressed.

[Totenkopf]

I am in favor of a limited application of the death penalty. Applying the death penalty as retribution for the most egregious crimes is morally acceptable. I would only prescribe it for mass murderers and other scum of the earth – guys likes Dahmer, Manson, Wayne Gacy, John Allen Muhammad, etc. Capital punishment for ordinary criminals like Tukee is a waste of the taxpayers’ money (since it costs more to execute a person than a life sentence) and has no proven deterrent effect.

I also believe there should be a higher evidentiary standard required in capital cases – “beyond all doubt” as opposed to “beyond reasonable doubt.” Far too many capital sentences have been overturned by DNA evidence for my liking.

Executing Tukee Williams was counterproductive – instead of acting as a deterrent it will likely result in more senseless deaths citing his martyrdom as justification. In prison he at least tried to act as an effective spokesperson against gang involvement (even if it was motivated by self-preservation). Where is the greater good?

I think that capital punishment has a place in modern America, but our uneven use of the death penalty undermines our entire system. It’s ironic that the more even-handed we try to be by specifying what crimes deserve the death penalty, and then blindly following these guidelines - the more unbalanced the system becomes. We would be far better off if we selectively applied the penalty for only the most extreme cases.

[Biff_Loman]

We would be far better off if we selectively applied the penalty for only the most extreme cases.

Then dragging them out behind the courtroom and shooting them before they have the chance to redeem themselves.

I think that's the real lesson here: don't give them the chance to grow and make a difference.

[sbw]

Capital punishment for ordinary criminals like Tukee is a waste of the taxpayers’ money (since it costs more to execute a person than a life sentence)

wait, it costs MORE to fry somebody one time than it does to feed and shelter them for 40 years?

Scott

[TwoBigFish]

It may make me sound like a total ... you know ... but hey, prison isn't for rehab, it's for PUNISHMENT.

Those who take away from society are to be punished. This may deter them from further crime, which is a plus, but we are not their mommies and daddies, and frankly do not have the right to try to make them a "better person" (which is an arbitrary concept in the first place).

Society has established a general moral code that is designed to keep people from infringing on the rights of others, and little more. Personal morality is not marshalled. We have a rule, if you break it you suffer an established consequence as punishment. This is procedure, and it is there for a reason.

If you kill, we kill you (or ought to) - "let the punishment fit the crime." I'm disgusted that it has taken this long to fry him - why are we pussy-footing around? When you're convicted, when you're guilty. Good bye. We have fed and entertained him and other scum of his kind in the bleeding heart hopes of making them better people.

We have no power to do so.

Again, it's nice when the punishment causes a turnaround, but that IS NOT IT'S PURPOSE.

And while I'm on my soap box, I am also disgusted by the money we feed into the penal system to make these criminals more comfortable. I say lock them up, give them bread and water, medical access and humane treatment and leave it at that. If prison isn't miserable, how will they feel motivated to stay out of it?

The recidivism rate is disgusting too - and it's the fault of every bleeding heart hippy that feels sorry for these scum bags that do nothing but hurt other people, yet feel no compulsion to save the life of a helpless, breathing, baby in the womb.

Everything is disgusting. People are sick, amoral pigs. :rant:

:banana:

-C

P.S. I love you people.

[mgb]

wait, it costs MORE to fry somebody one time than it does to feed and shelter them for 40 years?

Scott
Yes.

[mgb]

It may make me sound like a total ... you know ... but hey, prison isn't for rehab, it's for PUNISHMENT.

Those who take away from society are to be punished. This may deter them from further crime, which is a plus, but we are not their mommies and daddies, and frankly do not have the right to try to make them a "better person" (which is an arbitrary concept in the first place).

Society has established a general moral code that is designed to keep people from infringing on the rights of others, and little more. Personal morality is not marshalled. We have a rule, if you break it you suffer an established consequence as punishment. This is procedure, and it is there for a reason.

If you kill, we kill you (or ought to) - "let the punishment fit the crime." I'm disgusted that it has taken this long to fry him - why are we pussy-footing around? When you're convicted, when you're guilty. Good bye. We have fed and entertained him and other scum of his kind in the bleeding heart hopes of making them better people.

We have no power to do so.

Again, it's nice when the punishment causes a turnaround, but that IS NOT IT'S PURPOSE.

And while I'm on my soap box, I am also disgusted by the money we feed into the penal system to make these criminals more comfortable. I say lock them up, give them bread and water, medical access and humane treatment and leave it at that. If prison isn't miserable, how will they feel motivated to stay out of it?

The recidivism rate is disgusting too - and it's the fault of every bleeding heart hippy that feels sorry for these scum bags that do nothing but hurt other people, yet feel no compulsion to save the life of a helpless, breathing, baby in the womb.

Everything is disgusting. People are sick, amoral pigs. :rant:

:banana:

-C

P.S. I love you people.


You seem to have quite a poor view of human nature?

Also, given the conditions you'd like to see prisoners in, do you find that to be of any benefit to society on the whole? Most people end up leaving the prisons, wouldn't some sort of work release program be effective? Job/skills training? Give them some tools to help them be less likely to re-offend?

I think in this case Williams seemed to have turned his life around somewhat, kind of demonstrated some sort of redeemable quality in at least his human nature. It's unfortunate that is unimportant to so many.

I have to wonder if he wouldn't have made an even larger impact in the world had his life not been extended than the massive negative impact he made as a youth? Given time, could he have balanced the scales. I suppose that's irrelevant now and I'm also not saying every person is redeemable, but even the most derranged have some lessons to teach us.

[TwoBigFish]

One or the other may cost more, and I won't honestly claim that I know - but there are two sides to every story, and neither is definitive.

I am quoting the article below, but I have to tell you, I don't care about the cost. Society cannot last long if we base societal axioms on cost instead of morality.

Read your history books. The great fall of the Egyptian and Roman empires, (not to mention countless other societies both larger and longer-lived than the U.S.) were brought about when the people sacrificed their final vestiges of morality for a gluttonous bath in depravity. Values and standards, thought to be outmoded (don't think there is anything "modern" or "sophisticated" about *that* turn of logic) were abandoned and the people and governments finally fell apart or were weakened and in such a state of chaos that the next ambitious despot was able to seize power in the most pathetically staged coup.

There is no new thing under the sun, just a sad sad replay, over and over again, of this stupid thought process. It's like watching an old blind rat, lame from his many failed attempts, still banging his stupid head against a glass wall to get cheese forever out of his reach.

-C

:rocker:
____________________


CAPITAL PUNISHMENT AND ITS COSTS:

There's a claim that it is more expensive for the state to execute a criminal than to incarcerate him for life. Many opponents present, as fact, that the cost of the death penalty is so expensive (at least $2 million per case?), that we must choose life without parole ("LWOP") at a cost of $1 million for 50 years. Predictably, these pronouncements may be entirely false. JFA (Justice for All) estimates that LWOP cases will cost $1.2 million - $3.6 million more than equivalent death penalty cases.

And life without parole prisoners face, on average, 30 or 40 years in prison while the annual cost of incarceration is $40,000 to $50,000 a year for each prisoner or more! There is no question that the up front costs of the death penalty are significantly higher than for equivalent LWOP cases. There also appears to be no question that, over time, equivalent LWOP cases are much more expensive - from $1.2 to $3.6 million - than death penalty cases. Opponents ludicrously claim that the death penalty costs, over time, 3-10 times more than LWOP.

The $34,200 is conservative, if TIME Magazine's (2/7/94) research is accurate. TIME found that, nationwide, the average cell cost is $24,000/yr. and the maximum security cell cost is $75,000/yr. (as of12/95). Opponents claim that LWOP should replace the DP. Therefore, any cost calculations should be based specifically on cell costs for criminals who have committed the exact same category of offense - in other words, cost comparisons are valid only if you compare the costs of DP-equivalent LWOP cases to the cost of DP cases. The $34,200/yr. cell cost assumes that only 20% of the DP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in maximum security cost cells and that 80% of the DP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in average cost cells. A very conservative estimate. The $60,000/yr., for those on death row, assumes that such cells will average a cost equal to 80% of the $75,000/yr. for the most expensive maximum security cells. A very high estimate. Even though we are calculating a 75% greater cell cost for the DP than for equivalent LWOP cases, equivalent LWOP cases appear to be significantly more expensive, over time, than their DP counterparts. For years, opponents have improperly compared the cost of all LWOP cases to DP cases, when only the DP equivalent LWOP cases are relevant.

Annual cost increases are based upon: 1) historical increases in prison costs, including judicial decisions regarding prison conditions,and the national inflation rate; 2) medical costs, including the immense cost of geriatric care, associated with real LWOP sentences; 3) injury or death to the inmate by violence; 4) injury or death to others caused by the inmate (3 and 4 anticipate no DP and that prisoners, not fearing additional punishment, other than loss of privileges, may increase the likelihood of violence. One could make the same assumptions regarding those on death row. The difference is that death row inmates will average 6 years incarceration vs. 50 years projected for LWOP); 5) the risk and the perceived risk of escape; and 6) the justifiable lack of confidence by the populace in our legislators, governors, parole boards and judges, i.e. a violent inmate will be released upon society.

$75,000 for trial and appeals cost, for DP-equivalent LWOP cases, assumes that the DP is not an option. It is believed that this cost estimate is very low. It is over-estimated that DP cases will cost twenty times more, on average, or $1.5 million. This exaggerated estimate states that the DP will have twenty times more investigation cost, defense and prosecution cost, including court time, guilt/innocence stage, sentencing stage and appellate review time and cost than DP equivalent LWOP cases. Even though abolitionists have greatly exaggerated the cost of DP cases, DP cases still prove to be significantly less expensive, over time, than the DP equivalent LWOP cases.

6 years on death row, prior to execution, reflects the new habeas corpus reform laws, at both the state and federal levels. Some anti-death penalty groups speculate that such time may actually become only 4 years. If so, then DP cases would cost even that much less than the DP equivalent LWOP cases. However, the average time on death row, for those executed from 1973-1994, was 8 years. Therefore, 6 years seems more likely. Even using the 8 year average, the DP equivalent LWOP cases are still $1 million more expensive than their DP counterparts ($2 million @ 2% annual increase).

So the death penalty costs reside mainly in appeals costs. Life without parole prisoners get the same appeals and should be considered to bear the same costs.

Lastly, the cost for justice does not have to be so high for the execution of murderers. If we only allowed appeals that are relevant in proving one's innocence and eliminated the many more that are used merely as delaying tactics, it would save millions in taxpayer dollars.

[the_stumpycat]

BULLSHIT!!!

For info, according to the 2000 US Census data :


Black or African American persons represent 12.3% of the US population


White persons represent 75.1%


The split of people executed in the US since 1976 (slightly out of date statistics) reads :

BLACK 339 34%
HISPANIC 63 6%
WHITE 579 58%
OTHER 22 2.3%

So it looks to me as if there is a disproportionate chance of getting executed if you aren't white.

A fact supported by US Agencies


"In 82% of the studies [reviewed], race of the victim was found to influence the likelihood of being charged with capital murder or receiving the death penalty, i.e., those who murdered whites were found more likely to be sentenced to death than those who murdered blacks."
- United States General Accounting Office, Death Penalty Sentencing, February 1990


Not only that, but the death penalty seems to me to be the least of the problems:

According to U.S. Justice Department figures from 1992, white Americans commit murder at a rate of 5.1 per 100,000. For black Americans, the rate is 43.4 per 100,000 – eight times that of whites.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Homicide Victimization Rates per 100,000 Population by Race
....................White Black Other

2001 ...........3.4 20.4 2.8
2002 ...........3.3 20.8 2.7

----------------------------------------------------------------------------



As I've said in a previous post, I couldn't care less if the US kills people or not, but for a supposedly multi-cultural society, land of the free, equal opportunity for all, these statistics are seriously fucked up ........

[TwoBigFish]

You seem to have quite a poor view of human nature?.

You're sort of right - I do happen to believe that every person is born basically "bad" (I can see the argument I'm going to get, but oh well), and that doing good is the harder choice for everyone.

I know most people feel the other way, but I don't know how you can unless you're so full of your self that you honestly think you're basically good, and that it's actually harder for you to do the wrong thing than the right thing. That is just a stupid stance, encouraged by the buck-passing pseudo-psycho-therapists and armchair philosophers who idolize self-love and self-worth as the goal of human achievement. This is the real reason, though hard to articulate, why most Ayurvedic and Eastern cultures view Americans as fat wasteful pigs. The only time hippies indulge in a form of self-hate is when they are really pointing a finger at successful people and shaming them for having when many do not. They are puffed so full of moral pride that it can’t help but spill out into every facet of life and infect the culture as a whole.

Also, just look around you. Is this a world inhabited by basically good people?

I also think there is redemption for even the most depraved crime - but redemption comes from God, not man. We have no authority to judge a man's heart and see if he is truly repentant and safe to be released, or worthy of even a partial reprieve.

Who was that sicko killing little girls that was able to pass multiple lie detector tests? These scum are pretty good actors when their life is on the line.

And the death penalty would be a more effective deterrent for criminals if we were most consistant, more expedient and less wishy-washy. If they think there is hardly a chance at all that they might have to die for their crime, and they have hope that a good show and a couple of TV cameras might save them even if they are sentenced to death, I would say they are a lot less hesitant to kill that next person.

-C

:banana:

[coffeezombie]

I also think there is redemption for even the most depraved crime - but redemption comes from God, not man. We have no authority to judge a man's heart and see if he is truly repentant and safe to be released, or worthy of even a partial reprieve.

So should we kill all criminals then since we have no authority to judge if they are truly repentant? I think if there were a God, we should wait until a criminal dies for him or her to be judged and not kill them ourselves. Execution is a judgment, and something I believe God would frown upon if such a being existed. At least that is what the Roman Catholics around whom I grew up believed.

[TwoBigFish]

So should we kill all criminals then since we have no authority to judge if they are truly repentant? I think if there were a God, we should wait until a criminal dies for him or her to be judged and not kill them ourselves. Execution is a judgment, and something I believe God would frown upon if such a being existed. At least that is what the Roman Catholics around whom I grew up believed.

The death penalty is laid out in detail in the books of law - Old Testament. You must have been schmoozin with some soft-spined Catholic types. Or maybe they just didn't know their stuff.

We are called to administer a punishment, fitting to he crime. If they choose to seek forgiveness, we forgive - but that doesn't negate the punishment.

George Washington admitted to chopping the tree down, and he was right to do so, but he still got a big old spanking.

I don't have children yet, but I have little siblings - and let me tell you, when they get caught they are so so so sorry if it means they might get out of a spanking, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't spank them. Then what happens? They figure they might as well break the rules whenever they want because if they say they are sorry, they won't be punished.

See a correllation here?

We are called to punish, even if we do buy their repentence.

We can't prove they are truly sorry, but we can prove they broke the rule. We operate on proof.

-C

sorry I'm such a ... you know. Well, I'm not really that sorry.

[Vagabond]

The death penalty is laid out in detail in the books of law - Old Testament. You must have been schmoozin with some soft-spined Catholic types. Or maybe they just didn't know their stuff.
I don't know about that, didn't Jesus say "don't judge so that you won't be judged" - or whatever the translation in english is..?

[coffeezombie]

The death penalty is laid out in detail in the books of law - Old Testament. You must have been schmoozin with some soft-spined Catholic types. Or maybe they just didn't know their stuff.

I don't think so. The official stance of the Roman Catholic church is anti-capital punishment. Pope John Paul II even went so far as to forgive his would-be assassin, which is probably what Jesus would have done too (or perhaps he would have killed him and returned the guy to life, who knows).

[mgb]

We have no authority to judge a man's heart and see if he is truly repentant and safe to be released, or worthy of even a partial reprieve.


So why is it so easy for you to judge people as bad?

[coffeezombie]

So why is it so easy for you to judge people as bad?
Yeah, maybe Jesus will give her a spanking when she gets to heaven.

[the_stumpycat]

The death penalty is laid out in detail in the books of law - Old Testament. You must have been schmoozin with some soft-spined Catholic types. Or maybe they just didn't know their stuff.


If we're going to quote this, then can all women who had "sexual relations while single in her father's house" - ie who were not virgins when they married, raise their hands because in accordance with Deuteronomy 22:13-21 we have to stone them to death.

[TwoBigFish]

Well, the Catholic church is totally wrong in that regard. I'm no theologian, but here is the Bible (and whether or not you agree, it is the book the Catholic church is sworn to go by, and recognizes as infallible).

Exodus 21:12-14

12 "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. 14 But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.

I'm not a Catholic, so I don't know their policies, but there is also no place in the Bible that says preists should have to be celibate and become child molesters, so they already have some doctrinal deviations that aren't so hot.

Jesus wasn't all flowers and candy either - He came down to be spit upon, whipped and murdered in order to save those He called to have faith in Him, but the flip side is the judgement He brought. He does tell us not to judge a man's heart and soul condition - but we are called to make judgements based on a man's fruit that affect how we deal with them (i.e. death sentence, prison time, basic punishment). If you're unwilling to see the difference here, it's because you don't want to - it won't fit your sneer. If we couldn't make temporal judgements, we wouldn't even be able to punish our children.

John 5:26-29

26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Again, this is relevant from a Christian standpoint, but if you're not a believer, there is still plenty of reason to look into history and find your answers there. All of God's rules are for a good reason ... they make SENSE. They are not arbitrary things like "stand on your head for three minuted every second Wednesday."

You punish those who cross the murder line so that less people will do it. You punish them really harshly, so that even less people will do it.

-C

And BTW, it's not "so easy" for me to "judge" people as "bad." I put myself in this category, and have made the assumption based first on my faith and second on my experience. If you detach yourself and look at the world and the people in it, you will see the same thing. Some people are really awesome, but usually through much effort and dedication. And some people are scum, and happy to be so. And theirs is a very easy path.

It is easier to take than to earn, it easier to steal than to pay, it easier to lie than to argue.

-C

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[Vagabond]

But did Jesus say we shouldn't judge or not..?

[TwoBigFish]

But did Jesus say we shouldn't judge or not..?

You're not paying attention. Read it in context, instead of off a bumper sticker.

He is talking about judging the heart and soul of a man, deciding whether or not he is Heaven or Hell bound.

We are commanded to "judge" in a temporal way, by the fruit displayed. That means, if you kill, you die. If you're truly sorry, awesome - say Hi to God for me.

-C

[coffeezombie]

The Bible was written by men and the books contained in the Bible were chosen arbitrarily. Jews chose the books to be in the Old Testament and Roman and Orthodox Catholics chose the books to be in the New Testament, both religions that you don't even agree with.

I think that certain enlightened religions prefer to follow what they believe the spirit of Jesus' message was rather than to adhere to standards of morality that are 2000 or more years old.

[Vagabond]

You're not paying attention. Read it in context, instead of off a bumper sticker.

He is talking about judging the heart and soul of a man, deciding whether or not he is Heaven or Hell bound.

We are commanded to "judge" in a temporal way, by the fruit displayed. That means, if you kill, you die. If you're truly sorry, awesome - say Hi to God for me.

-C
The problem is you apparently read it in a different context than I do. Did Jesus say you should forgive endless times too or not? Or maybe he meant something different, but didn't quite know how to phrase it again?

[TwoBigFish]

The Bible was written by men and the books contained in the Bible were chosen arbitrarily. Jews chose the books to be in the Old Testament and Roman and Orthodox Catholics chose the books to be in the New Testament, both religions that you don't even agree with.

I think that certain enlightened religions prefer to follow what they believe the spirit of Jesus' message was rather than to adhere to standards of morality that are 2000 or more years old.

Then let's all make up our own religions and go to our own Heaven. Good grief!

Look, be whatever religion you like for whatever reason you like, be Agnostic or Atheist ... by all means, think you're smarter than God, and can take what He says to mean whatever you "feel" is right (i.e. say it better than He said it). But if you have a standard (in the Catholic case, the Bible) than stick with it or admit you're apostate.

By the way, the Catholic church accepts the Bible as infallible in it's entirety, and also adheres to another set of books called the Apochrypha, which in no way negates the words in the standard Bible.

[TwoBigFish]

The problem is you apparently read it in a different context than I do. Did Jesus say you should forgive endless times too or not? Or maybe he meant something different, but didn't quite know how to phrase it again?

I already said you should forgive if they ask for forgiveness - I just maintain that forgiveness doesn't let you off the hook for punishment.

By the way, Tookie never asked.

AND ALSO, Jesus Himself had to DIE to pay the price for our sins, because we COULD NOT BE RELEASED FROM PUNISHMENT, even with divine forgiveness. Blood had to be shed to pay for our sin, and He took our place.

Are you ready to strap in for Tookie?

-C

[coffeezombie]

Look, be whatever religion you like for whatever reason you like, be Agnostic or Atheist ... by all means, think you're smarter than God, and can take what He says to mean whatever you "feel" is right (i.e. say it better than He said it). But if you have a standard (in the Catholic case, the Bible) than stick with it or admit you're apostate.
Which God is that? Why is your god any better than the Hindu gods and goddesses or the teachings of Buddha or the teaching of the Jews who reject Jesus? What makes you sure you're so right, because I'm willing to bet that you are wrong (as well as the majority of the world would be who is not Christian).

[mgb]

You're not paying attention. Read it in context, instead of off a bumper sticker.

He is talking about judging the heart and soul of a man, deciding whether or not he is Heaven or Hell bound.

We are commanded to "judge" in a temporal way, by the fruit displayed. That means, if you kill, you die. If you're truly sorry, awesome - say Hi to God for me.

-C

Is an eye for an eye really the best way to do things?

Have you ever done something wrong and not been punished for it? If so, I hope you are headed to the police station right now to submit yourself to your temporal punishment. I mean, you can plead for forgiveness from God, but truly you need to also be punished by man to be truly cleansed of any crime.

I guess we won't be seeing you for a while. Oh well. Have fun.

[Vagabond]

AND ALSO, Jesus Himself had to DIE to pay the price for our sins, because we COULD NOT BE RELEASED FROM PUNISHMENT, even with divine forgiveness. Blood had to be shed to pay for our sin, and He took our place.

Are you ready to strap in for Tookie?

-C
Oh give me a break. Jesus died because he had no choice?? Wow then, that reduces his sacrifice to hmm... nothing. A god that needs to see blood being shed to forgive, is not the god of love and forgiveness Jesus talked about. And yes, you may say that if I ever get into being religious, I will be heretic. I see no problem with that, given the fact that everyone seems to have a different interpretation of the Bible. Any reason why yours is better than mine..?

[TwoBigFish]

Which God is that? Why is your god any better than the Hindu gods and goddesses or the teachings of Buddha or the teaching of the Jews who reject Jesus? What makes you sure you're so right, because I'm willing to bet that you are wrong (as well as the majority of the world would be who is not Christian).

We could debate this to no end, but it wouldn't change either of our minds. I can state testimony I find accurate, you can say it can't be proved (and you're right).

I have examined the evidence, and my heart, and I have faith. That is a personal choice.

But I wasn't trying to push my religion on anyone, I merely responded to you - I base my opinions FIRST on my faith, but choose to argue them from the point of good sense (since the two happen to allign themselves for me). I gave good solid reasons for my take on the death penalty - one's that can be wholly separated from my faith.

-C

By the way, the whole world could eat lasagna, and I'd still hate it. This isn't a popularity test.

[TwoBigFish]

A god that needs to see blood being shed to forgive, is not the god of love and forgiveness Jesus talked about.

Yikes, I shouldn't get into this - I'm gonna try to stop after this post - but it is not because God is bloodthirsty, it is because He has set forth a perfect world and perfect rules for OUR happiness, that were broken.

It is because of His HOLINESS, and JUST nature that JUSTICE had to be done for the crimes commited against His law of love. He was so loving that He sent His son to take it upon Himself, because we were unable to bear the burden.

A bloodthirsty God would have left us to the fate we deserve.

-C

[Biff_Loman]

Read your history books. The great fall of the Egyptian and Roman empires, (not to mention countless other societies both larger and longer-lived than the U.S.) were brought about when the people sacrificed their final vestiges of morality for a gluttonous bath in depravity. Values and standards, thought to be outmoded (don't think there is anything "modern" or "sophisticated" about *that* turn of logic) were abandoned and the people and governments finally fell apart or were weakened and in such a state of chaos that the next ambitious despot was able to seize power in the most pathetically staged coup.


Rome - a declining economy due to a number of factors; over-run by barbarians who were probably pushed out of their territory by pastoralist nomads.

Egypt - Alexander the Great.

Say wha?

[Vagabond]

I will just bite my tongue for now. It seems pretty hopeless anyway.

[Johnny]

I think the state of California got a win-win situation. They bagged they guy for the murders he committed (and bragged and laughed about to his friends and then threatened the jury's lives when they convicted him!), and during his incarceration he wrote books to discourage kids from joining gangs that had interest in doing harm to others and breaking the law.

It even looks like all the bible beaters survived whew praise God!

[Sue Denim]

Then let's all make up our own religions and go to our own Heaven. Good grief! Isn't that how protestant christianity got started?

[TwoBigFish]

No - we got started by stating our disgust, (Luther) for the way the main church (Catholic) had been ever STRAYING from the original standards of the Bible, which are clearly set forth.

They were engaged in the popular exercise of thinking for God, and deciding that He did and did not mean according to them, instead of according to Him.

-C

That's sticking to the standard, not making up our own.

[SensEye]

For some reason, I'm always a bit surprised by the bleeding heart tone of this place when capital punishment comes up.

If capital punishment is done right, it would be a no brainer. It would be economical if we didn't gnash our teeth so much about getting it wrong once in a thousand times or so. If the verdict is guilty, there's no doubt, and it's 1st degree murder, it should be straight to the proverbial gallows pole.

Redemption shouldn't even enter into it. Who really cares if some scumbag has the potential, if they're really coddled enough, to become another everyday schmuck? It's not like there's a shortage. Off with their heads!

[jax0m]

For some reason, I'm always a bit surprised by the bleeding heart tone of this place when capital punishment comes up.

If capital punishment is done right, it would be a no brainer. It would be economical if we didn't gnash our teeth so much about getting it wrong once in a thousand times or so. If the verdict is guilty, there's no doubt, and it's 1st degree murder, it should be straight to the proverbial gallows pole.

Redemption shouldn't even enter into it. Who really cares if some scumbag has the potential, if they're really coddled enough, to become another everyday schmuck? It's not like there's a shortage. Off with their heads!

I'm definitely not a bleeding heart, and I agree 100% with the ideal of this. Yes, if things were done right and juries were well-convinced and the judge sentenced the accused to death, it would be great if it were done immediately and the murderer wouldn't sit in jail for 20-some odd years.

However, when you take into account how fucked up the legal system is and how humans are completely shitty/fallible when it comes to judgements and making decisions... Eh. That ideal just tends to fall apart. If the system were further debugged, I could stand by capital punishment. However, with the status quo being what it is, I cannot.

SensEye, it's easy to say what you're saying about "gnashing our teeth" when we get it wrong "once in a thousand times", but surely you have not considered the impact. One guy gets wrongly accused, convicted, tried, sentenced, and subsequently put to death... That is not only a human life down the drain, but a gaping flaw in the system, and I think we should strive to eliminate that type of error, or at least reduce the margin by a lot more than what we have now. However, I do agree with you on redemption. Who gives a fuck if they're repentant? You were sentenced because you were found guilty. Why should we let you out because you're "sorry"?

I found a lot of reading material on this site (http://justice.uaa.alaska.edu/death/issues.html) and found it good food for thought. There are a lot of issues within the legal system that could use some cleaning up... for example, I am a proponent of legalizing soft drugs.

[jax0m]

Also, if maybe if people worried less about the cost of an execution vs. a lifelong stay in prison and focused more on the reasons why these individuals are entering the system in the first place, perhaps we'd be getting somewhere. Obviously indicative of deep-rooted problems in society when we're all killing each other left and right.

[Sue Denim]

SensEye, the way you worded it (if done right, if not doubt...) you've set it up for the opposing argument. There's an abundance of cases where it has not been done right, and where there's plenty of doubt. And I think that's more about justice than bleeding hearts.


Also, if maybe if people worried less about the cost of an execution vs. a lifelong stay in prison and focused more on the reasons why these individuals are entering the system in the first place, perhaps we'd be getting somewhere. Obviously indicative of deep-rooted problems in society when we're all killing each other left and right.
Excellent point, but not likely to come up with a simple answer as to why. (and just as likely to stir comments like 'bleeding-heart').

[Eileen]

Well, the Catholic church is totally wrong in that regard. I'm no theologian, but here is the Bible (and whether or not you agree, it is the book the Catholic church is sworn to go by, and recognizes as infallible).



Laying aside death penalty issues, though I have plenty to say about that too (but won't extensively tonight), this isn't exactly true anyway. Catholics use the Bible and give it authority, but they do not have the same attitudes towards it as, say, Evangelical Protestantism. "Infallible" is a kind of sticky term when it comes to Catholic understanding of Scripture... they certainly don't give it ultimate authority, and when they use it, they don't use it quite so narrowly as Prots. Edited to add: Catholics are much more bound by the creeds than the Bible.


All of that said, from one Christian to another, if we are to imitate Christ (and, uh, we are), we are to be dispensers of grace--not vicious retribution (there are other ways to punish, and yes, the purpose of prison is ALSO to rehabilitate; elsewise the system is irreparably dysfunctional).

[mgb]

All of that said, from one Christian to another, if we are to imitate Christ (and, uh, we are), we are to be dispensers of grace--not vicious retribution (there are other ways to punish, and yes, the purpose of prison is ALSO to rehabilitate; elsewise the system is irreparably dysfunctional).

That's a damn lie. Christ would have pulled the switch himself if he had the chance. In fact, I bet if you looked closely into the eyes of the guy that threw the switch you'd have seen a little twinkle, that was Christ, twinkling, so happy to be killing, because Christ is vengeful and mean, it says so in the Bible.

[Johnny]

we are to be dispensers of grace--not vicious retribution (there are other ways to punish, and yes, the purpose of prison is ALSO to rehabilitate; elsewise the system is irreparably dysfunctional).

From my understanding, the CC's position on the death penalty is an entirely philosophical and spiritual one and they are not concerned whatsoever in it's practicality.

Do I think the CC should relax their position on matters of death sentences and abortion? No, it's a compelling argument that puts the responsibility for our actions square on our shoulders not God's and we must recognize this.

[PsiKik]

The death penalty is no deterrent - a crimminal is not going to be dettered by what you threaten to do to him if you catch him.

People who favor the death penalty seem to have this attitude of 'sit back and relax while the crime rate drops as we have the death penalty'.
They do not realise that crime is a problem that has no solution, only prevention.

Look at societies that have low crime rates, like Scandinavia - they dont have the death penalty and dare I say it, they are socialistic with powerful welfare systems.

The death penalty has existed in societies since 'civilization' began and murder continues.

It has always seemed an absurdity to me that a prison is called a 'correctional facility' or somesuch doublespeak.
Go in a petty thief come out a carjacker.

When will people start to think about the actual root causes of crime, like poverty?

[PenguinHunter]

I think a good example of a capital punishment system functioning well is the United Arab Emirates. (Although Johnny will tell you my view of the country has been perversely slanted from living there, heh). Nevertheless I direct your attention to a system that has minimal theft and almost no homicide. Granted the country is small but its capital offence crime statistics are ridiculously low. The only difficulty I've had making this argument in the past is that crime figures are not officially released (at least I haven't been able to find any - I'll dig around when I go back for holidays if I remember). My counter to this is that a murder is massive news. Even accidental death hits headlines because it is so rare. Not only that, there is a distinct feeling of safety I have when I walk around there late at night, something I've rarely experienced in North America or Europe. That is, at 3am you can happily wander through the streets without fear of a mugging or attack.

Part of this might be atributed to the culture. Arabs stay up late. This means shops are open as you wander around at 3am and there is a small but distinct level of day-to-day activity at almost all hours. However, I also would maintain that this lack of crime is because of a strict adherence a system of capital punishment. Quite simply, if you commit murder you will be sentenced to death. This principle is so firmly established that it is rare for anyone to test the rule. I believe there were two murders in the 5 and a half years I was there. In both incidents the evidence was quite clear, and the penalty was carried out. One I think was a small group of men robbing a store and the other was someone who was beaten to death. In both cases they were also foreigners on working visas.

Large scale theft (multiple cars or embezzlement) is treated similarly seriously. Your right hand will be surgically removed but I'm not entirely sure of the exact rules about when it is large enough. It may be that if you confess and can return the property you will just have a very long jail term. Needless to say theft is a very minor problem. Part of this may also stem from the fact that the wealth of the country is such that no Emirati needs to steal anything. This then sets a precedent for the foreign workforce. However, I think that it is necessary to combine this cultural phenomenon with a system of capital punishment to get the desired effect. Although Dubai's petty crime rates are on the rise with big city syndrome it is still nothing compared to other cities of similar size in the US or Canada.

Part of the problem with the system of the US is that its rules are unclear and rarely carried through. There is no point in a system of capital punishment which does not help to deter crime. I don't necessarily see that an execution is better or worse than a prison sentence as far as actual punishment goes so such a ruling should surely have a greater purpose than just punishment. The other problem that can't be controlled is the size of the urban areas. It's simply easier to get away with things in the very large cities and this attitude filters down into the smaller cities of 1-2 million which should be more than controllable.

My conclusions: In some societies capital punishment is useful and deterrent, especially when the population of the country is relatively low and the country is wealthy. If capital punishment cannot function as a deterrent, as it appears not to in the US, that system should be dropped. Some have already pointed out that it is more costly and I cannot see that it currently serves any further purpose.

[Spartan26]

I am in favor of a limited application of the death penalty. Applying the death penalty as retribution for the most egregious crimes is morally acceptable. I would only prescribe it for mass murderers and other scum of the earth – guys likes Dahmer, Manson, Wayne Gacy, John Allen Muhammad, etc. Capital punishment for ordinary criminals like Tukee is a waste of the taxpayers’ money (since it costs more to execute a person than a life sentence) and has no proven deterrent effect.

I also believe there should be a higher evidentiary standard required in capital cases – “beyond all doubt” as opposed to “beyond reasonable doubt.” Far too many capital sentences have been overturned by DNA evidence for my liking.

Executing Tukee Williams was counterproductive – instead of acting as a deterrent it will likely result in more senseless deaths citing his martyrdom as justification. In prison he at least tried to act as an effective spokesperson against gang involvement (even if it was motivated by self-preservation). Where is the greater good?

I think that capital punishment has a place in modern America, but our uneven use of the death penalty undermines our entire system. It’s ironic that the more even-handed we try to be by specifying what crimes deserve the death penalty, and then blindly following these guidelines - the more unbalanced the system becomes. We would be far better off if we selectively applied the penalty for only the most extreme cases.
W/out saying agree or disagree, I thought you argument was well developed.

[PsiKik]

Part of this may also stem from the fact that the wealth of the country is such that no Emirati needs to steal anything.


This is the central issue - true in all countries with a high standard of living. The Scandinavian countries have no death penalty or barbaric cutting-off-of-hands and they have a very low level of crime compared to U.S.

I would like one of our Scandinavian friends to comment on this, perhaps my perception is wrong.

[PenguinHunter]

Yes but I suspect in Scandavian crime rates are still far higher than those of the Emirates.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap

The UAE would be quite similar to Qatar I believe.

Norway's murder rate is still 10x that of Qatar.

EDIT: Huh, Indonesia is suprisingly low on there. Interesting.

[PsiKik]

Those stats are under dispute.
More developed countries have better crime reporting mechanisms so they will appear to have worse crime rates.

Your central argument seems to be that having brutal punishments reduces crime.
Mine is that a high standard of living and dare I say , social programs, is the proven way to reduce crime.

[Spartan26]

The death penalty is no deterrent - a crimminal is not going to be dettered by what you threaten to do to him if you catch him.
Yeah, but can I just say laws like the death penalty are not deterrents to cold blooded murderers, but they're a deterrent to you and me!

I haven't really thought this out but shouldn't a law be based or judged on its ability to keep the just, just? Someone breaks into your car and lifts your CD changer, you and all of your friends are pissed, angry at life and the world (rightfully so) and detest the state of mankind. But, say you leave your wallet on a park bench while you play on a swingset and you come back and it's gone. You'll be headed for the lightning round of society's favorite game show, "Blame the Victim!" Both cases are stealing but in the later scenario you've allowed for the just to act like the criminals.

Out in the middle of the desert, one o'clock in the morning, people are going to speed. If there's a cop around, people aren't going to speed. Is it because of the heavy fine? Can anyone tell me what the fines are for speeding? Or how about running a red light? Illegal left-hand turn? Usually when someone gets a ticket, the cost of the fine is generally about the fourth, fifth or even sixth thing out of their mouth that they bitch about. When you get busted on a traffic infringement you're thinking one thing and one thing only, "What is this going to do to my insurance?!"

People get tickets all the time from carelessness (I was in the flow of traffic; I didn't know what the speed limit was; there's no way I was going that fast...) and not necessarily because of blatant disregard for posted laws.

So the question becomes, how do we push the needle over in raising the percentage of just people to where less criminals become murderers? Or keeping more people just and not becoming any type of criminal? Is it just heavier laws? You can go to the federal pen for not paying your taxes but the IRS estimates on the number of people who cheat on their taxes is staggering. Will the gas chamber keep gang bangers from doing drive bys or husbands from beating their wives to death? Seriously, those aren't questions aren't necessarily rhetorical.

It's amazing how "effective" the insurance industry is in keeping society in check, but their actions and modes of operation can be so blatantly criminal. There's almost a paradox to it.

So maybe in the end there needs to be the formation of a de facto power that regulates beyond the law against criminal behavior, forcing more people to act like the just. Now I'm wondering can such a de facto power exist if it doesn't treat the just like criminals?

I suppose that's what some detractors say is the reason for the creation of organized religion. "Don't do that or God will strike you down!" Keep people aka society in check. But if you factor in a message of love, forgiveness and people's perogative not to believe in a supreme being, it renders religion useless in that sense.

The only thing I can think to do, the thing that would help keep more criminals acting like the just, is to take away people's desire to be injust. Myabe that's obvious but does anyone have anything else??? Here's my final question: if we can get women like Pamela Anderson to chase after guys like Mr Rodgers and not Tommy Lee, would the world be a better place?

[PenguinHunter]

Those stats are under dispute.
More developed countries have better crime reporting mechanisms so they will appear to have worse crime rates.

Qatar is a developed country. So is the UAE. . .

[PsiKik]

Yeah, but can I just say laws like the death penalty are not deterrents to cold blooded murderers, but they're a deterrent to you and me!


Well, I do not need to be deterred from commiting murder because it is not something I would do in the first place.

Many other people will not do crime, not because there is a law against it but because it is against our nature or we are affluent enough etc.

There seems to be a psychological effect in some people whereby they think a law just has to be passed to stop some problem. This is probably type related - I suspect the SJ's.

[eyebyte_atWork]

I am sorry - I am just shocked that Cathina was on here at all - I had not expected to see her again - wow.

I will say one thing - and hope it does not start too much of a debate - and that is - that the death penalty as a form of punishment does not deter crime. The idea that the death penalty, as a form of punishment, is a good deterent is pure fantasy - history does not support that this works. Never has.


Carry on people.

oh - and it is nice too see you again Cathina.

[kendoiwan]

I think the state of California got a win-win situation. They bagged they guy for the murders he committed (and bragged and laughed about to his friends and then threatened the jury's lives when they convicted him!), and during his incarceration he wrote books to discourage kids from joining gangs that had interest in doing harm to others and breaking the law.

It even looks like all the bible beaters survived whew praise God!


Try again about the bragging part... that was based on the testimony of someone who later came forward to say that his statement was coercised. They basically beat him to the point were he would sell his own mother up the river... and there was plenty of misconduct to go around, but the state of california refused to reopen the case, and he was relegated to trying to appeal the case on technicalities.... I will repeat, finger prints found at the crimescene... not his. Boot print of the killer found at the crime scene, not his, handwriting of the killer, not his... no real evidence except the word of a man who recanted his statement as mentioned above...

And again for the folks talking like life without the possibility of parole was doing him some sort of favor... and don't get me started as to the purpose of the penial system... it creates and trains better crooks, and does nothing for the man who wants to turn his life around... That whole it was meant for punishment not rehabilitation arguement is just plain stupid...

[Johnny]

Try again about the bragging part... that was based on the testimony of someone who later came forward to say that his statement was coercised. They basically beat him to the point were he would sell his own mother up the river... and there was plenty of misconduct to go around, but the state of california refused to reopen the case, and he was relegated to trying to appeal the case on technicalities.... I will repeat, finger prints found at the crimescene... not his. Boot print of the killer found at the crime scene, not his, handwriting of the killer, not his... no real evidence except the word of a man who recanted his statement as mentioned above...

And again for the folks talking like life without the possibility of parole was doing him some sort of favor... and don't get me started as to the purpose of the penial system... it creates and trains better crooks, and does nothing for the man who wants to turn his life around... That whole it was meant for punishment not rehabilitation arguement is just plain stupid...

Hey if you don't like my assertions blame Wikipedia's collective insight.

Sorry if US prison life does not meet your expectations maybe when your solutions bring compelling results you can share them with us I'd gladly support you

The entire "when I kill without remorse by my own will without sanction and am found guilty then society needs to re-educate me and pamper me and give me all the love and support to reform myself into what society wants" argument is a laughingstock. Society doesn't owe you or I anything. We either play the game (and take care of it and manage it and fix it and evolve it) or don't...and it's our problem to deal with the consequences either way.

Tookie was a killer and he was proud of it and did it to gain power for himself alone. If he had an epiphany and instead joined the Marines and followed orders and sucked it up like the rest of us things would have been different. But he never got that far.

Now we don't have to worry about a killer who in his last years in prison preyed on children to glorify himself anymore thank you State of California

(O.K. how was this one kendoiwan?)

[Johnny]

Johnny will tell you my view of the country has been perversely slanted from living there, heh

I don't even know you how could I truly believe such a thing

see if you can find some other donkey to carry that load my man

[kendoiwan]

Hey if you don't like my assertions blame Wikipedia's collective insight.

Sorry if US prison life does not meet your expectations maybe when your solutions bring compelling results you can share them with us I'd gladly support you

The entire "when I kill without remorse by my own will without sanction and am found guilty then society needs to re-educate me and pamper me and give me all the love and support to reform myself into what society wants" argument is a laughingstock. Society doesn't owe you or I anything. We either play the game (and take care of it and manage it and fix it and evolve it) or don't...and it's our problem to deal with the consequences either way.

Tookie was a killer and he was proud of it and did it to gain power for himself alone. If he had an epiphany and instead joined the Marines and followed orders and sucked it up like the rest of us things would have been different. But he never got that far.

Now we don't have to worry about a killer who in his last years in prison preyed on children to glorify himself anymore thank you State of California

(O.K. how was this one kendoiwan?)


:blink: Wikipedias collective insight?<_< Ever try doing your own research and forming your own conclusions? And I fail to see how encouraging kids not to go into gang life, creating protocols for people to escape or avoid gang life equates "preying on children to glorify himself". And I like how you totally avoided the facts of the case I presented...

As for the Penial system... you obviously have no friends or family members who are fresh from the pen and trying to get their lives together... your lack of experience with the matter relegates your opinion to "blah blah blah" in my book...

[Johnny]

:blink: Wikipedias collective insight?<_< Ever try doing your own research and forming your own conclusions? And I fail to see how encouraging kids not to go into gang life, creating protocols for people to escape or avoid gang life equates "preying on children to glorify himself". And I like how you totally avoided the facts of the case I presented...
That was my own research to look up facts in Wikipedia.

Where did your research come from, a Hollywood actor who didn't want a real life character he played to negatively impact his acting career? <_<


As for the Penial system... you obviously have no friends or family members who are fresh from the pen and trying to get their lives together... your lack of experience with the matter relegates your opinion to "blah blah blah" in my book...
See this is a problem you need to recognize, that we all have to deal with shit no matter what are our circumstances.

My family within has seen and/or experienced incarceration, drug abuse, child abandonment, divorce, suicide attempts, physical abuse, and poverty. It has also seen and/or experienced military war, corporate life, charity work, technological innovation, academic scholarship, climbs up the social ladder, and public service awards. It hasn't seen everything there is to see, but it's seen a lot in only two generations and I don't doubt there will be more to see good and bad and I pray and strengthen myself for the next generation after us we didn't have bags to carry and they will and I'll help where I can

For my family there has been a great turn of fortune and we are very, very lucky of this I have no doubt. All I can say man is don't completely give up on others yes it was hard and it is still hard for me to do this I fear people with a passion I know what they're capable of what we're all capable of

There's some blah blah blah for you now get your own shit out of my face if you don't want to eat it don't expect me to

[eyebyte_atWork]

As for the Penial system... you obviously have no friends or family members who are fresh from the pen and trying to get their lives together... your lack of experience with the matter relegates your opinion to "blah blah blah" in my book...


good point - I mentioned on another post that I think having siblings increases empathy - only children tend to be opinionated and judgemental.

The penal (spelling) system is not made to rehab criminals - it WAS intended to keep them off the streets and deter would be criminals. I said was - this is no longer the case. In my home town the prison system has become the area's largest employer. I myself have earned money from this system (as a civil engineering intern and drafter - prisons are constructed). From what I gather - prisons are good for local economies as the money to fund them come from both state and federal funds. In my home town - if you do not have a college education - you can have a good job by becoming law enforcement (usually white guys from the suburb cities - a white flight thing). THe crime and punishment system is a joke - people with money are forgiven while the poor get prison time.

THere are my two cents.

[meshou]

I've wondered something.

Lethal injection costs hundreds of dollars. It's likely painful to the person undergoing it. If it needs to be haluted, there's a way to do so after it's given, but the person undergoing's organs are so torn up, he has a very short lifespan ahead of him.

A heroin overdose would cost about five cents for the government to produce (about twenty dollars if they went through a dealer, not that they would-- in any case, VERY cheap). It would not hurt at all, and would be like going into a euphoric sleep. If he needed to be revived, Narcan would do it instantly, with no long term health problems after.

WHY don't we do the second instead of the first? The second strikes me as the least cruel or painful way to die imaginable. Is some amount of cruelty needed as a deterrant?

[Vagabond]

I promised myself I would not read this topic anymore, but bleh... to our dear bible thumpers who are too eager to pull the trigger (or shoot the injenction, whatever), someone once said something like "let him who has not sinned cast the first stone" - guess who that was. But hey, maybe he hadn't read the bible close enough.

(clarification - this is not directed to Cathina personally. It is a general comment to anyone who claims that for the love of sweet Jesus, criminals should be executed).

[meshou]

I promised myself I would not read this topic anymore, but bleh... to our dear bible thumpers who are too eager to pull the trigger (or shoot the injenction, whatever), someone once said something like "let him who has not sinned cast the first stone" - guess who that was. But hey, maybe he hadn't read the bible close enough.Pet Peeve!

I believe that the implication has always been "He who has not committed THIS sin." Jesus, in that case, was pointing out thaty they were stoning a woman for having extramaratial sex, when all of them had diddled around premarriage.

Same for "Judge lest ye be judged." The context is always left out "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye."

It condemns hypocritical condemnation, not condemnation itself. It does not say you may not judge anyone. That is a stupid sentiment anyway-- you can't judge people for stealing from you? For murdering? Not ever?

There are quite a few instances of Jesus urging people to judge rightly. John 7:14, Luke 12:57.

There are instances of Jesus judging-- the moneylenders in the temple charging interest, something expressly forbidden by God and taking advantage of the people in God's own temple. He condemned the Pharisees.

There are instances of people not so divine as Jesus judging. John the Baptist rarely did anything but rebuke, and Jesus went directly to him for Baptisim, so he seemed not to mind.

I'm all for the argument that executions as they are done now are cruel and pointless. I'm not a Christian by any means. But no, Christianity does not say nor practice no one should ever be judged, and neither do you, because both the statement and the practice would be foolish.

[TwoBigFish]

The death penalty is no deterrent - a crimminal is not going to be dettered by what you threaten to do to him if you catch him.

...

The death penalty has existed in societies since 'civilization' began and murder continues.

Do you just make this stuff up? Do you know how low the crime rate is in China? Do you know how strict Chinese laws are? Is there no correllation there?

This is a pointless conversation where people will seek out information to support their view and ignore everything else. There is no black and white resolution on the basis of facts (for my side or yours).

It does all boil down to morality, responsibility and sense. These are personal values, and none of us are likely to rearrange ours when we realize how moronic it would be to stop the death penalty.

We would all be wise, however, to at least periodically examine our personal system of value and morality and be open minded to possible flaws.

-C

[eyebyte_atWork]

I've wondered something.

Lethal injection costs hundreds of dollars. It's likely painful to the person undergoing it. If it needs to be haluted, there's a way to do so after it's given, but the person undergoing's organs are so torn up, he has a very short lifespan ahead of him.

A heroin overdose would cost about five cents for the government to produce (about twenty dollars if they went through a dealer, not that they would-- in any case, VERY cheap). It would not hurt at all, and would be like going into a euphoric sleep. If he needed to be revived, Narcan would do it instantly, with no long term health problems after.

WHY don't we do the second instead of the first? The second strikes me as the least cruel or painful way to die imaginable. Is some amount of cruelty needed as a deterrant?


Because it is sponsored by our tax dollars - prison and executions are about the economy - and they use scare tactics to justify it. (ok - not all of it - but a significant portion)


Like you said - there are cheaper alternatives - like injecting gasoline or a lye solution. Or maybe they could just hit the target with a hammer. Or that french thing... the guillotine - quick and effective - cheap too.

It is more about creating "legit" jobs through government contracts.

Gotta love that... I wonder what the stock symbol for the chemical company that makes those injections is.

[meshou]

Because it is sponsored by our tax dollars - prison and executions are about the economy - and they use scare tactics to justify it. (ok - not all of it - but a significant portion)


Like you said - there are cheaper alternatives - like injecting gasoline or a lye solution. Or maybe they could just hit the target with a hammer. Or that french thing... the guillotine - quick and effective - cheap too.

It is more about creating "legit" jobs through government contracts.

Gotta love that... I wonder what the stock symbol for the chemical company that makes those injections is.I know it is a cocktail, and all the drugs are in common use. The amount of money a company makes on an execution compared to regular use has no effect on their bottom line.

[Johnny]

It does all boil down to morality, responsibility and sense. These are personal values, and none of us are likely to rearrange ours when we realize how moronic it would be to stop the death penalty.

We would all be wise, however, to at least periodically examine our personal system of value and morality and be open minded to possible flaws.

Good now let's put the bibles away before somebody gets hurt

So now when I tell you the words printed on its pages are worthless to anyone but killers what are you going to do be open to this and search your own soul that God granted you for these answers? Even the most devout Catholics must face this journey as well as Protestants

The death penalty is no laughing matter and it is not moronic to argue against it...it is instead moronic to believe the death penalty is righteous work because it is legally permitted and some book you regard as holy praises it somewhere therefore no further inquiry is necessary

[TwoBigFish]

The entire "when I kill without remorse by my own will without sanction and am found guilty then society needs to re-educate me and pamper me and give me all the love and support to reform myself into what society wants" argument is a laughingstock. Society doesn't owe you or I anything. We either play the game (and take care of it and manage it and fix it and evolve it) or don't...and it's our problem to deal with the consequences either way.


Dude, *that* at least, is so right on. :rocker:

-C

[TwoBigFish]

The death penalty is no laughing matter and it is not moronic to argue against it...it is instead moronic to believe the death penalty is righteous work because it is legally permitted and some book you regard as holy praises it somewhere

I don't agree with you, but you are right about one thing - it is totally wrong of me to use the word "moronic." The issue is a serious one, and I am not flippant (although I AM convinced) about it ... I apologize.

Differing views are healthy, and anyone who can supply good reasons and sound logic for theirs is entitled to it ... I just get frustrated when the arguments are 1) emotional 2) totally devoid of logic, but unshakeable in the mind of the opponent.

About 60% or the arguments presented here are at least valid considerations, so I will refrain from further indulgence in my sadly deep reservoir of self-righteousness, which, believe it or not, disgusts me as much as most other people.

-C

[eyebyte_atWork]

*munching on popcorn - waiting for te next post*

[TwoBigFish]

... nice too see you again Cathina.

Hi! :)

[the_stumpycat]

I just get frustrated when the arguments are 1) emotional 2) totally devoid of logic, but unshakeable in the mind of the opponent.


Can I ask some questions at this point :

1) How do you know the bible is correct ?

2) Do you have factual evidence that the bible is correct sufficient to present the facts and convince me beyond a doubt ?

3) If the answer to 2 is no, and your belief that the bible is correct is based on faith, how can you claim that your argument is anything other than emotional?

4) How do you justify following strictly certain paragraphs of the bible and not others (for example you don't quote "Thou shalt not kill" in your analysis that the bible fully backs killing people - nor do you seem to fully endorse me stoning to death any girl that has sex outside of marriage as endorsed by the old testament)

[TwoBigFish]

Can I ask some questions at this point :

1) How do you know the bible is correct ?

2) Do you have factual evidence that the bible is correct sufficient to present the facts and convince me beyond a doubt ?

3) If the answer to 2 is no, and your belief that the bible is correct is based on faith, how can you claim that your argument is anything other than emotional?

4) How do you justify following strictly certain paragraphs of the bible and not others (for example you don't quote "Thou shalt not kill" in your analysis that the bible fully backs killing people - nor do you seem to fully endorse me stoning to death any girl that has sex outside of marriage as endorsed by the old testament)


Well, this is the basis for a really long theological apology that I'm not in the mood to make - but I do feel obligated to point out a few things.

The facts I base my beliefs on include written and sworn testimony of the men who wrote the Bible, which I choose to believe. Since you have no proof that they are lying, and we live in a society of "innocent until proven guilty" I think I'm more justified in my belief than you are in your dis-belief.

That is just a tiny part of why I have faith, but it is not emotional - it is my take on the presented facts. If you have a different one, great.

Secondly, the Bible is not a black and white chronicle of oxy-morons and self-contradictions. Each statute has a place and a circumstance, when understood in context. The original word for "kill" in that commandment is usually (and more accurately) translated as "murder" - it is not MURDER to execute a scumbag who sexually abuses and kills little girls, or murders his crack-competition. It is justice. The Bible has to be read in CONTEXT, and NOT distorted to mean what you want it to mean.

I understand the come-backs you'll have, and the little verses you can search out and clip/paste to refute me, but the fundamental truth is that educated, dedicated theologians have spent more years than you or I have probably lived dissecting and verifying scripture, and they probably have a lttle more authority than you (or I) to quote and proselytize.

-C

[eyebyte_atWork]

THere are many issues (as posted here) with the death penalty and the system of crime and punishment - from theological to socio-economics issues. I doubt we will actually solve anything today- but let us discuss things with a cool head - learning is power. Having said that - the next person to contradict me will be killed.

Carry on.

[TwoBigFish]

Hey man, I'm cool, I'm cool (lowering shotgun).

Besides, I'm not sure why we're discussing religion. I did not cite it in my original assertion that the death penalty is a solid concept, and could only be improved upon by more frequency and less clemency.

-C

[Johnny]

The fundamental truth is that educated, dedicated theologians have spent more years than you or I have probably lived dissecting and verifying scripture, and they probably have a lttle more authority than you (or I) to quote and proselytize.

Oh yeah you definitely don't want to hear what these people have to say, Cathina. They'll twist even the simplest assertions like up and down and left and right to the point you be wishing you were screaming out the door if only you could find where the ground was :wacko:

(you've been warned)

[the_stumpycat]

The facts I base my beliefs on include written and sworn testimony of the men who wrote the Bible, which I choose to believe. Since you have no proof that they are lying, and we live in a society of "innocent until proven guilty" I think I'm more justified in my belief than you are in your dis-belief.


No, you're right, I have no proof whyatsoever, no dinosaur fossils, no geological record, no science, no rules of physics or chemistry, no personal experience.....

If I tell you I have a 3 foot dick, the fact you haven't seen it doesn't make it true !


Secondly, the Bible is not a black and white chronicle of oxy-morons and self-contradictions. Each statute has a place and a circumstance, when understood in context.

Exactly - which is equally true when you quote passages verbatum as it is when I do - you can't pick and chose and take it as ok to quote out of context when it supports your view but not when it happens to shoot your argunment down in flames.


I
understand the come-backs you'll have, and the little verses you can search out and clip/paste to refute me, but the fundamental truth is that educated, dedicated theologians have spent more years than you or I have probably lived dissecting and verifying scripture, and they probably have a lttle more authority than you (or I) to quote and proselytize.

Educated theologans with the backing of the church have, for centuries, concealed facts, stood in the way of progress, and spread lies and mis-information to avoid having their views challenged. Liars and cheats have no authority in my eyes !

[kendoiwan]

That was my own research to look up facts in Wikipedia.

Where did your research come from, a Hollywood actor who didn't want a real life character he played to negatively impact his acting career? <_<


See this is a problem you need to recognize, that we all have to deal with shit no matter what are our circumstances.

My family within has seen and/or experienced incarceration, drug abuse, child abandonment, divorce, suicide attempts, physical abuse, and poverty. It has also seen and/or experienced military war, corporate life, charity work, technological innovation, academic scholarship, climbs up the social ladder, and public service awards. It hasn't seen everything there is to see, but it's seen a lot in only two generations and I don't doubt there will be more to see good and bad and I pray and strengthen myself for the next generation after us we didn't have bags to carry and they will and I'll help where I can

For my family there has been a great turn of fortune and we are very, very lucky of this I have no doubt. All I can say man is don't completely give up on others yes it was hard and it is still hard for me to do this I fear people with a passion I know what they're capable of what we're all capable of

There's some blah blah blah for you now get your own shit out of my face if you don't want to eat it don't expect me to


My facts come from the court case itself... not some collective opinion, or an actor, just the facts... stop being lazy and do your homework and then we can speak on Tookie R.I.P

As for the penial system and your experience with it, define incarceration. How many parolees do you know? It's baffles me that on the one hand you go on this "prison is for punishment who cares about rehab" rant. And then on the other hand claim you have real experience with this problem...

Once you commit a crime and serve your time you supposedly "payed your debt to society" and that's supposed to buy you a clean slate. Yet the stigma attached to being incarcerated effectively prevents you from trying to walk the straight and narrow. It's hard enough being poor, but to be poor and have every door closed in your face... who wouldn't turn to crime? And for the record the number of people in jail for narcotics sales(which is an economic crime) outnumbers violent crimes by far... which means we take away or limit peoples options, and then penalize them for going the only route available...

For me this ties directly with the economics mentioned in the "Do Americans Care?" Thread. The opportunity to escape poverty is just not there for most people, and then they are penialized for not accepting that fate.

[kendoiwan]

Do you just make this stuff up? Do you know how low the crime rate is in China? Do you know how strict Chinese laws are? Is there no correllation there?

This is a pointless conversation where people will seek out information to support their view and ignore everything else. There is no black and white resolution on the basis of facts (for my side or yours).

It does all boil down to morality, responsibility and sense. These are personal values, and none of us are likely to rearrange ours when we realize how moronic it would be to stop the death penalty.

We would all be wise, however, to at least periodically examine our personal system of value and morality and be open minded to possible flaws.

-C

Are you kidding me? Ever hear of the Triads? Or consider the fact that alot of what we consider crime isn't a crime or isn't treated as such i.e. prostitution. And finally you trust their official numbers? So I guess you believe what they report regarding the bird flu as well

[TwoBigFish]

No, you're right, I have no proof whyatsoever, no dinosaur fossils, no geological record, no science, no rules of physics or chemistry, no personal experience.....

...

Educated theologans with the backing of the church have, for centuries, concealed facts, stood in the way of progress, and spread lies and mis-information to avoid having their views challenged. Liars and cheats have no authority in my eyes !

There is not one fossil record of any "missing link" - even though we were supposed to have spent millions of years "evolving" from one state to another - nor is there one definitive fossil of any animal in a state of flux between amoeba and fish, fish and land-dweller, land-dweller and winged creature ... who is the one quoting the scientific record to whom?

And like you said ... in YOUR eyes. And I don't put a total stock in theologians, who DO twist the doctine to fit their own ideas many times, I'm just making the point that Christian-hating people who are either ignorant of the Bible, or have rejected it and are willfully blind to the obvious contexts in which most of the oft-quoted favorites are regurgitated have no authority to make wild speculation.

-C

[kendoiwan]

There is not one fossil record of any "missing link" - even though we were supposed to have spent millions of years "evolving" from one state to another - nor is there one definitive fossil of any animal in a state of flux between amoeba and fish, fish and land-dweller, land-dweller and winged creature ... who is the one quoting the scientific record to whom?

And like you said ... in YOUR eyes. And I don't put a total stock in theologians, who DO twist the doctine to fit their own ideas many times, I'm just making the point that Christian-hating people who are either ignorant of the Bible, or have rejected it and are willfully blind to the obvious contexts in which most of the oft-quoted favorites are quoted have no authority to make wild speculation.

-C
For my two cents, since you're talking the bible and data... you believe that the planet just popped up as in in 6 days? And by that line of thinking there should be no dinosaurs you realize... not historians ever documented the existence of this man called jesus... no evidence of the mass exodus of jews from eygpt... Ramses II didn't die in any parted sea flood or anything of that nature... and so on and so on...

[eyebyte_atWork]

For me this ties directly with the economics mentioned in the "Do Americans Care?" Thread. The opportunity to escape poverty is just not there for most people, and then they are penialized for not accepting that fate.

The whole crime and punishment thing seems fishy to me

1. Street hookers are hunted down by the vice squad. why? Cause it is illegal.
2. I can walk into any city and find a hooker with a few hours without the fear of ever getting arrested. Why? - these are white collar girls. Cops do not go near them. No one does - cause they are not visible to the public. Money talks. Everyone know they are there.

1. Drug dealers in poor neighborhoods are hunted down by the narc division, why? Cause itis illegal and they are menace to society.
2. I can get drugs from any middle school kid in the wealthier neighborhoods with little fear of getting busted, why? Cause when these kids get busted - their parent get them out of trouble. Money talks.

I could go on - it is plain to see that there are two sets of rules - one set for those who have and the other for those who do not. Keep in mind that this is coming from a former republican conservative from the south.

I could say more - but I will now go home and watch some TV.

[mgb]

The whole crime and punishment thing seems fishy to me

1. Street hookers are hunted down by the vice squad. why? Cause it is illegal.
2. I can walk into any city and find a hooker with a few hours without the fear of ever getting arrested. Why? - these are white collar girls. Cops do not go near them. No one does - cause they are not visible to the public. Money talks. Everyone know they are there.

1. Drug dealers in poor neighborhoods are hunted down by the narc division, why? Cause itis illegal and they are menace to society.
2. I can get drugs from any middle school kid in the wealthier neighborhoods with little fear of getting busted, why? Cause when these kids get busted - their parent get them out of trouble. Money talks.

I could go on - it is plain to see that there are two sets of rules - one set for those who have and the other for those who do not. Keep in mind that this is coming from a former republican conservative from the south.

I could say more - but I will now go home and watch some TV.


That doesn't look like you got it from wikipedia or the Bible, it must not be true.

[the_stumpycat]

There is not one fossil record of any "missing link" - even though we were supposed to have spent millions of years "evolving" from one state to another - nor is there one definitive fossil of any animal in a state of flux between amoeba and fish, fish and land-dweller, land-dweller and winged creature ... who is the one quoting the scientific record to whom?

And like you said ... in YOUR eyes. And I don't put a total stock in theologians, who DO twist the doctine to fit their own ideas many times, I'm just making the point that Christian-hating people who are either ignorant of the Bible, or have rejected it and are willfully blind to the obvious contexts in which most of the oft-quoted favorites are regurgitated have no authority to make wild speculation.

-C

Ohhh fuck, I've upset the Zealots .........

So it mentions dinosaurs where exactly in the 7 days of creation exactly ?

.......and from what I recall it wasn't the Christian-haters (where were they again?) who started quoting the bible out of context to justify their argument.

Its funny isn't it - how its fine for one person to quote the bible out of context to support their argument, but as soon as someone else quoting it in response blows the argument out of the water, then all quoting out of context should be stopped and left to the Theologians (who neither the Christians or none-Christians have any faith in anyway).

[meshou]

There is not one fossil record of any "missing link" - even though we were supposed to have spent millions of years "evolving" from one state to another - nor is there one definitive fossil of any animal in a state of flux between amoeba and fish, fish and land-dweller, land-dweller and winged creature ... who is the one quoting the scientific record to whom?I thought current understanding was we spend no time between states, and that there are massive changes that only take a couple generations to get between species.

I know they've recently found those "hobbits" in Indonesia. I think they've shown they're still human, just two or three feet tall.

In any case, when growing up Christian, both my parents taught me evolution was 100% correct. I don't know why, if a day is the same as a thousand years to God, and given that the Hebrews were extremely figurative with numbers, a God couldn't have made everything in seven days over a period of billions of years in any damn way he pleased, including regular natural selection based evolution. We're talking about a GOD. I think simultaneous truths shouldn't be a problem.

Anyway, whether God exists or not, morality does. As it stands, I think capitol punishment is aviodably cruel, and should either be haulted or reformed.

I think since they lifted the moritorium on the death penalty, prisions have gotten more crowded. I think the problems with crime in this country have more to do with the prohibition (which creates crime) and other enforcement choices rather than not scaring people enough.

I'm pleanty scared of the system. I'd be more inclined to defy it than obey it out of fear.

[kendoiwan]

That doesn't look like you got it from wikipedia or the Bible, it must not be true.


LMMFAO :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[TwoBigFish]

For my two cents, since you're talking the bible and data... you believe that the planet just popped up as in in 6 days? And by that line of thinking there should be no dinosaurs you realize... not historians ever documented the existence of this man called jesus... no evidence of the mass exodus of jews from eygpt... Ramses II didn't die in any parted sea flood or anything of that nature... and so on and so on...

Are you insane? There is huge historical data on the Jewish exodus, some (though not conclusive) record of Jesus and His execution and some allusions to the drowning of an entire Egyptian army.

Dinosaurs are perfectly plausible, large creatures who’s bulky lung and organ capacity probably couldn't survive in the post-flood strata, after the ozone-water sheath was dissipated - or maybe they could, and were unable to thrive with the diminished post-flood population, and no bulk food source (I can‘t explain their extinction any better than the million different scientists with a million different, and usually laughable, ideas). Carbon and modern dating systems have been proven simplistic and fallible, when a baby pine tree deluged in fresh lava from a volcanic eruption was wrongly dated to be millions of years old.

Yes, I think the world was zapped into being by God.

Science cannot encompass the idea of infinity, though it tries, in time or space. The ultimate questions of where the first spec of goo came to be in the universe, or where the universe, or where the catalyst for some imagined process that spawned the universe came from. And again, is space infinite? If so, can you really travel forever and never reach an end? Explain that? And if it isn't, and there is an end ... what is on the other side? If you could drill through, what lies beyond?

Discount a spiritual world, and seem irrational, or accept one but say that there is no higher standard laid out, just some vague personal right to master your own destiny ... or go a step further, and accept a higher power, but still claim to need no guidance, being perfectly capable of ascertaining morality on your own authority ... none of that makes any sense either.

I choose to accept a creating authority that has chosen to reveal itself (Himself) in the form of the Bible. You may choose something else, or nothing else, and have your own reasons for it - but why question mine?

-C

[TwoBigFish]

Its funny isn't it - how its fine for one person to quote the bible out of context to support their argument, but as soon as someone else quoting it in response blows the argument out of the water, then all quoting out of context should be stopped and left to the Theologians (who neither the Christians or none-Christians have any faith in anyway).

Well, let me know what I said that was out of context ... ?

[meshou]

Ohhh fuck, I've upset the Zealots .........

(....)
.......and from what I recall it wasn't the Christian-haters (where were they again?)So the name calling is in the spirit of love and understanding?

[Johnny]

It's baffles me that on the one hand you go on this "prison is for punishment who cares about rehab" rant.I think the notion that someone can hit us with rehab rays and part the clouds for us is intoxicating...but it's escapism fantasy


It's hard enough being poor, but to be poor and have every door closed in your face... who wouldn't turn to crime? And for the record the number of people in jail for narcotics sales(which is an economic crime) outnumbers violent crimes by far... which means we take away or limit peoples options, and then penalize them for going the only route available...
You fail to gain my sympathy here and I truly am sorry for being cold but I risked playing the grownup here and I'm committed to it right now

I sense there is an inner strength within you that you are ignoring and crippling and I understand the ease with which you construct the illusions to make the world the way you want it I do this too (it is only a pacifier)

If you were living in NYC when the crack epidemic was tearing the city apart and you got to watch your best friend get his head blown off in a drive by for no other reason than to keep the public cowering in mortal fear of you so you could keep hooking and selling and sucking until all life in the communities were gone and then piss all over bodies of the dead then maybe you would be telling a different story...or not I don't know

There comes a point when fear stops being a boundary not just for the power hungry but for those who want to make things better you have a choice my friend it doesn't have to be a downward spiral what do we have to lose anyway our lives? We already lost those when we were born into this world look in your heart and get that fucking pacifier out of your mouth let that inner strength God gave you loose

[kendoiwan]

I think the notion that someone can hit us with rehab rays and part the clouds for us is intoxicating...but it's escapism fantasy


You fail to gain my sympathy here and I truly am sorry for being cold but I risked playing the grownup here and I'm committed to it right now

I sense there is an inner strength within you that you are ignoring and crippling and I understand the ease with which you construct the illusions to make the world the way you want it I do this too (it is only a pacifier)

If you were living in NYC when the crack epidemic was tearing the city apart and you got to watch your best friend get his head blown off in a drive by for no other reason than to keep the public cowering in mortal fear of you so you could keep hooking and selling and sucking until all life in the communities were gone and then piss all over bodies of the dead then maybe you would be telling a different story...or not I don't know

There comes a point when fear stops being a boundary not just for the power hungry but for those who want to make things better you have a choice my friend it doesn't have to be a downward spiral what do we have to lose anyway our lives? We already lost those when we were born into this world look in your heart and get that fucking pacifier out of your mouth let that inner strength God gave you loose

I lived there all my life and i'm still there right now... and i have countless friends and quite a few family members who are on parole, looking for work and finding nothing because of their time served... how many do you have? I watch them try to keep their heads up... and I watch them try to ignore the lore of the block, all the while they have empty pockets... grown men who are forced to live with family members/girlfriends/parents and unable to contribute to the household, do you know that frustration?... everyday is the same shit... looking for work not finding it and trying to stay on the straight and narrow... I'm not looking for sympathy... that equals pity and I seek none...

[TwoBigFish]

... I watch them try to keep there heads up... and I watch them try to ignore the lore of the block, all the while they have empty pockets... grown men who are forced to live with family members/girlfriends/parents and unable to contribute to the household, do you know that frustration?... everyday is the same shit... looking for work not finding it and trying to stay on the straight and narrow...

I don't agree with most of what you say, but I do think the record should be wiped for many crimes, after a statute of limitations. Unfortunately, markers for committers of major crimes like rape, drug trafficking, high-dollar theft and certain assaults need to be recorded, for the safety of others.

You must live with the consequences of choices you make - and though life may become hard, you can either do your best and take pride in what you're able to do or turn to crime, blame society and become another element of scum, existing at the pain of others in the selfish belief that you matter more than they do.

-C

[kendoiwan]

I don't agree with most of what you say, but I do think the record should be wiped for many crimes, after a statute of limitations. Unfortunately, markers for committers of major crimes like rape, drug trafficking, high-dollar theft and certain assaults need to be recorded, for the safety of others.

You must live with the consequences of choices you make - and though life may become hard, you can either do your best and take pride in what you're able to do or turn to crime, blame society and become another element of scum, existing at the pain of others in the selfish belief that you matter more than they do.

-C

Easy to say... and easy to call names... but the fact remains that everywhere on the planet where you find poverty you find people who operate outside of your "society" to make a life for themselves... it's human nature...the country you live in is stolen land, the freedom you enjoy is based on force and someone else losing theirs... really easy to talk it... try to live it... judge not...

btw what's to disagree with in the statement you quoted... these are people lives...???

[the_stumpycat]

So the name calling is in the spirit of love and understanding?

I was annoyed - and for the Zealots comment I apologise.

[TwoBigFish]

Easy to say... and easy to call names... but the fact remains that everywhere on the planet where you find poverty you find people who operate outside of your "society" to make a life for themselves... it's human nature...the country you live in is stolen land, the freedom you enjoy is based on force and someone else losing theirs... really easy to talk it... try to live it... judge not...

btw what's to disagree with in the statement you quoted... these are people lives...???

Well, it seems like you want to wipe the record clean for ex cons, leaving their future employers exposed to possible fiscal or physical harm (after all, the repeat crime rates are astronomical ... oh but wait, they only do that because they have to. We make them, by daring to brand them as ... um ... what they are), maybe get them some spending cash to keep them from stealing ... and then?

Pardon me if this isn't what you think would work ... what *is* the solution you're offering?

-C

[kendoiwan]

This is the perspective I operate from... and for the record, I haven't sold a drug in over year(since august 04 and counting)... I have a BS in Poli-Sci, on my way to law school and count myself lucky... but to many of the people I grew up with face what I described... and my frustration is that, all of that "do the right thing and it'll all work out" Bull Shit doesn't work... I watch them everyday try to do right and I watch them struggle, i watch as condsending sons of bitches blame them for circumstances that are beyond their control... for situations they have no understanding of... choices they never will be faced with... at any rate Hov said it best...

Just to get by... nigga I sold coke, nigga I pushed la/ carried a .45/claimed I/ was ready to die/promised never to cry/held it all inside/reality was to much to take so I/ kept my mind fried/slept for most of mine/soon as I close my eyes/I woke up behind/thinking either i load up these 9's/or blow up with rhymes/and this flow of mines/was like blow up with lines/of coca/when you folks think/that I just wrote stuff to rhyme/ nah/ I'm a poster of what happens seeing your moms doing 5 dollars of work and only getting a dime/so pardon my disposition/why should I listen to a system/that never listen to me?/Picture me working mcdonalds/I'd rather pull a mac on you/ sorry ms. jackson but I'm packing... -Jay Z

[TwoBigFish]

This is the perspective I operate from... and for the record, I haven't sold a drug in over year(since august 04 and counting)... I have a BS in Poli-Sci, on my way to law school and count myself lucky... but to many of the people I grew up with face what I described... and my frustration is that, all of that "do the right thing and it'll all work out" Bull Shit doesn't work... I watch them everyday try to do right and I watch them struggle, i watch as condsending sons of bitches blame them for circumstances that are beyond their control... for situations they have no understanding of... choices they never will be faced with... at any rate Hov said it best...[/I]

I heard the whine ... complaint ... the first time. What is the solution?

-C

[TwoBigFish]

[/B]Picture me working mcdonalds/I'd rather pull a mac on you/ sorry ms. jackson but I'm packing... -Jay Z[/I]

By the way, this sentiment is indicative of the entitlist mindset. I *COULD* work for a living, but I'm too good (hah!) to work at McDonald's like an honest citizen, so I'll steal what you worked for and call it good.

Thug.

-C

[eyebyte_atWork]

By the way, this sentiment is indicative of the entitlist mindset. I *COULD* work for a living, but I'm too good (hah!) to work at McDonald's like an honest citizen, so I'll steal what you worked for and call it good.

Thug.

-C


I think thats an over simplification - but then again most absolute views do tend to be.

There are no easy answers to crime and punishment.

THere are many things that are screwed in our current system too.

Marvin Martian (that's brother marvin) had the best idea I have ever heard of - and thats to blow up the earth.

[TwoBigFish]

I think thats an over simplification - but then again most absolute views do tend to be.

I'm only talking about someone who would make a statement as dumb as ... "What? Me work at McDonalds? I'd rather rob you!"

I understand there are many many gray areas of mixed situational content that require further examination ... but in the end, one thing does remain black and white. Right is right, wrong is wrong, and you are responsible for what you do.

But keep in mind, I stated way back that I believe in redemtion, forgiveness and personal rehabilitation (not facilitated by the government). I just think you still have to reap certain consequences. We can change some of them, in a democratic manner, if we feel they are too strict or lenient, but the concept remains solid.

-C

[Eileen]

Secondly, the Bible is not a black and white chronicle of oxy-morons and self-contradictions.


Hmm. Since we're talking about the death penalty, how about the significantly different accounts of Jesus's execution in Mark/Matthew and Luke? Luke's definitely got a different spin on Jesus there. Seems a bit contradictory to me... which doesn't make the book useless (hell, it makes it more interesting) but it calls to question the infallibility factor. I have absolutely no problem with you basing your position on the Bible, but people like me, Christians against the death penalty, can and do also find justification in the Bible for their positions.


the fundamental truth is that educated, dedicated theologians have spent more years than you or I have probably lived dissecting and verifying scripture, and they probably have a lttle more authority than you (or I) to quote and proselytize.


And yet... they too are divided on ethical-religious issues such as the death penalty. Isn't that weird?

[Johnny]

my frustration is that, all of that "do the right thing and it'll all work out" Bull Shit doesn't work

Therefore "do the wrong thing and it'll all work out" does? <_<

Ah but we all take our chances and this is just a game anyway. It doesn't really matter who wins or loses a debate here on this forum. It doesn't alter reality and can at best only challenge me to get my own pacifier out of my own fucking mouth...

[kendoiwan]

I just would like to know what you hardliners think you would do if faced with the circumstances I'm outlining... You want to work but you can't find work, you have responsibility but you can't carry the weight, and the days turn to weeks and the weeks turn to months... are you telling me you would just languish and not consider to act outside of the prescribed bullshit that has you trapped in the first place? You speak as if the stat quo doesn't exclude anyone...

One of my mentors always said "companys put the disclaimer 'equal opportunity employer' exactly because that wasn't the truth... there are laws for anti-discrimination exactly because people are discriminated against... if you really believe that all anyone has to do is try hard enough and things will work out you are kidding yourselves..."

[SheepDog]

That doesn't look like you got it from wikipedia or the Bible, it must not be true.
Is the bible as accurate as Britannica?
http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/internet/12/15/wikipedia.ap/index.html

[the_stumpycat]

Is the bible as accurate as Britannica?
http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/internet/12/15/wikipedia.ap/index.html

Only if it supports your argument.......

[Johnny]

You want to work but you can't find work, you have responsibility but you can't carry the weight, and the days turn to weeks and the weeks turn to months... are you telling me you would just languish and not consider to act outside of the prescribed bullshit that has you trapped in the first place? You speak as if the stat quo doesn't exclude anyone...

It doesn't matter what anyone says it would just be more "prescribed bullshit" you are the master and certifier of all truth, kendoiwan...right off the slaveship the very source itself my man

I'm just a loser killing time on an internet forum (an INTP forum at that jesus christ I really am a loser aren't I)

[TwoBigFish]

I just would like to know what you hardliners think you would do if faced with the circumstances I'm outlining... You want to work but you can't find work, you have responsibility but you can't carry the weight, and the days turn to weeks and the weeks turn to months... are you telling me you would just languish and not consider to act outside of the prescribed bullshit that has you trapped in the first place? You speak as if the stat quo doesn't exclude anyone...

One of my mentors always said "companys put the disclaimer 'equal opportunity employer' exactly because that wasn't the truth... there are laws for anti-discrimination exactly because people are discriminated against... if you really believe that all anyone has to do is try hard enough and things will work out you are kidding yourselves..."

All you can do is voice the same tired complaint ... apparrently, if you're bad and break rules, and have to suffer for it, you don't have choices and you're forced into a life of crime, hurting other people.

You don't like anyone's solution, but won't present your own, either because ...

1) You don't have one, and are the typical nay sayer with no positive input

2) It is so radical and obviously ill-conceived (like, "kill all the rich people" or some such nonsense) that even you're too smart to put it into the written record as your own brainchild.

Tell me, you lucky law student, you - do you plan on a career in the ACLU where you can pass it off in some bastardized form to sue white men and successful businesses?

-C

[kendoiwan]

It doesn't matter what anyone says it would just be more "prescribed bullshit" you are the master and certifier of all truth, kendoiwan

I'm just a loser killing time on an internet forum (an INTP forum at that jesus christ I really am a loser aren't I)

I'm asking a question... a very simple question... if faced with those circumstances what do you think you would do?

[kendoiwan]

All you can do is voice the same complaint ... if you're bad, and have to suffer for it, you don't have choices. You don't like anyone's solution, but won't present your own, either because ...

1) You don't have one, and are the typical nay sayer with no positive input

2) It is so radical and obviously ill-conceived (like, "kill all the rich people" or some such nonsense) that even you're too smart to put it into the written record as your own brainchild.

Tell me, you lucky law student, you - do you plan on a career in the ACLU where you can pass it off in some bastardized form to sue white men and successful businesses?

-C


Again I asked a very simple question... love the personal attacks tho'...

[meshou]

I'm only talking about someone who would make a statement as dumb as ... "What? Me work at McDonalds? I'd rather rob you!"Now, now, it's not robbery, it's dealing. You get caught after the first couple of robberies, and there's no room for growth. You may never get caught if you deal, and you can make hundreds of thousands a year if you're smart and discreet.

If you're not, you might have to choose between shooting and being shot.

If I had to choose between a lifetime of $7.50 an hour at McDonald's the rest of my days and dealing, I'd go for the one that would let me feed my kids in a heartbeat, even if it meant I might have to kill someone someday.

When you have no credit, no one will lend to you for college. When you've got shitty schools and get Fs, no college will take you. When you had a kid at 12 because there was no sex ed or condoms available, and you have to work to feed them rather than go to college, you aren't going to go. If you need to work full time just to afford housing and food, and if you aren't a natural A+ student, getting into community college and making good grades can be a bit of a stretch. Speding four years on an associate's so you can make just a little bit more is a looooong, soul crushing road.

It can be done, but it depends on so many choices in the beginning of your life that your circumstance easily takes away from you.

[sbw]

I'm asking a question... a very simple question... if faced with those circumstances what do you think you would do?

I would make sure I didnt create a child.

Scott

[sbw]

Tell me, you lucky law student, you - do you plan on a career in the ACLU where you can pass it off in some bastardized form to sue white men and successful businesses?

-C

this is mean. and not a little presumptuous. I won't call it racist, though.

Scott

[TwoBigFish]

Again I asked a very simple question...

Well, the answer is that I personally would probably figure out a way to make money on my own (well, I did that anyway). There are welfare moms that have gotten wealthy by buying and selling on eBay, items they picked up in junk shops for pennies and worked hard to make look good - there are people who make and sell things, people who offer services, clean houses, landscape freelance, work day-labor and construction (I happen to know those hard working Mexicans who work those jobs are making $15-22 per hour - that is good money if you're not too lazy to do the hard work).

There ARE options. They are hard, there is no guarantee of success, and you might fail 1000 times before you succeed (look at Lincoln) - but people, black, white, poor, uneducated, mistreated, down trodden, cheated, maligned and ignored - have been doing it for ages - not just in America (although your chances are often better here) but all over the world.

I refuse to grant some moral clemency on the idea that you have no choices. There are always two paths, it takes moral courage to choose the more difficult.

-C

[mgb]

Well, the answer is that I personally would probably figure out a way to make money on my own (well, I did that anyway). There are welfare moms that have gotten wealthy by buying and selling on eBay, items they picked up in junk shops for pennies and worked hard to make look good - there are people who make and sell things, people who offer services, clean houses, landscape freelance, work day-labor and construction (I happen to know those hard working Mexicans who work those jobs are making $15-22 per hour - that is good money if you're not too lazy to do the hard work).

There ARE options. They are hard, there is no guarantee of success, and you might fail 1000 times before you succeed (look at Lincoln) - but people, black, white, poor, uneducated, mistreated, down trodden, cheated, maligned and ignored - have been doing it for ages - not just in America (although your chances are often better here) but all over the world.

I refuse to grant some moral clemency on the idea that you have no choices. There are always two paths, it takes moral courage to choose the more difficult.

-C

Ahh, the old bootstraps argument.

I love these threads. They out all the weirdos eventually.

[meshou]

I would make sure I didnt create a child.

ScottYou're assuming a culture and income where sexual education and contraceptives are well known about and inexpensive. Also, I may be wrong, but I think suggesting contraception in a ghetto would be akin to accusing one's parter of being dirty and diseased.

[Johnny]

I'm asking a question... a very simple question... if faced with those circumstances what do you think you would do?

O.K. then here's my answer: I would wallow in that shit and deal with it or finally get tired of it and look for the first (yes the motherfuckin' first!) ticket out of that hole and keep taking my chances but always being mindful of possible consequences...and praying to God (well I don't really pray I haven't prayed since I learned how to read to be honest, now it's more of a gut-brain thing for me deep inside where words are just tools) of course

There now if you don't like this prescription either then fuck off I'm done playing Mr. Cleaver go find another daddy to lease your shit. You are not asking me a simple question you are trying to get me to stroke a Christ complex mine is rather a daddy complex and daddies fuck up sometimes

sorry

[kendoiwan]

O.K. then here's my answer: I would wallow in that shit and deal with it or finally get tired of it and look for the first (yes the motherfuckin' first!) ticket out of that hole and keep taking my chances but always being mindful of possible consequences...and praying to God (well I don't really pray I haven't prayed since I learned how to read to be honest, now it's more of a gut-brain thing for me deep inside where words are just tools) of course

There now if you don't like this prescription either then fuck off I'm done playing Mr. Cleaver go find another daddy to lease your shit. You are not asking me a simple question you are trying to get me to stroke a Christ complex mine is rather a daddy complex and daddies fuck up sometimes

sorry

Now I wonder were all the hostility is coming from... I also wonder would you tell me to fuck off to my face... the world may never know.

[kendoiwan]

this is mean. and not a little presumptuous. I won't call it racist, though.

Scott
:whistle:

[TwoBigFish]

Again I asked a very simple question...

Well, I answered your question - I asked a very simple question too, will you answer mine?

Again, what is YOUR idea of a solution to criminal behavior ... not an idealistic theory to prevent it, but a way to deal with it once it has been perpetrated, which is what we're debating.

I mean, I actually want to know (this is not meant to be sarcastic, but there is no way to get that through by typing).

-C :wacko:

[Johnny]

Now I wonder were all the hostility is coming from... I also wonder would you tell me to fuck off to my face... the world may never know.

I thought you didn't want sympathy why all the guilt mongering now kendoiwan

[meshou]

Well, I answered your question - I asked a very simple question too, will you answer mine?

Again, what is YOUR idea of a solution to criminal behavior ... not an idealistic theory to prevent it, but a way to deal with it once it has been perpetrated, which is what we're debating.

I mean, I actually want to know (this is not meant to be sarcastic, but there is no way to get that through by typing).

-C :wacko:I say:

1) Repealing the drug prohibition.

2) Raising the minimum wage.

3) Identifying community leaders and where they are captive audience (ie, the old lady who knows EVERYONE, the salons where women spend a lot of time talking to their hair dresser etc) and spending a LOT of money educating them on social programs to help pay for education, how to advocate positive things like education and contraception, where there are current job openings and scholarships etc.

[kendoiwan]

Well, I answered your question - I asked a very simple question too, will you answer mine?

Again, what is YOUR idea of a solution to criminal behavior ... not an idealistic theory to prevent it, but a way to deal with it once it has been perpetrated, which is what we're debating.

I mean, I actually want to know (this is not meant to be sarcastic, but there is no way to get that through by typing).

-C :wacko:


Criminal behavior.

Everyone who commits a crime is evil and should be shot. They shouldn't be allowed to even attempt to rebuild their lives ever. The stigma of having broken the law (because only evil people break laws and good people never break any laws ever) should follow them like a black cloud everywhere they go. No matter how stupid, or unrealistic the law too (after all if you wanna smoke pot you're a evil person and should be dealt with accordingly. And heaven forbid you're trying to make a dollar that can't be taxed.)

Poor people should just be happy being poor (because after all in a capitalist society someone has to be poor for the economy to work). Society at large shouldn't even consider the idea that there are gapping flaws in the system, entire communities left out, or behind, because these things are just a result of people not trying hard enough to succeed (you know those people like being disenfranchised).

We should just round them all up and shoot them all. That'll show them, and that will stop anyone else from ever thinking about breaking the laws.


I wonder why the U.S has more people in prison than every other country in the world put together? I guess it's because everybody else just kills their criminals...

[kendoiwan]

I thought you didn't want sympathy why all the guilt mongering now kendoiwan


Guilt mongering? In my world what you just did (telling me to fuck off) is utterly disrespectful, and I suspect it is in your world too...

[meshou]

I thought you didn't want sympathy why all the guilt mongering now kendoiwanTo clarify, I think he wants the amount of sympathy and respect appropriate to give another human being, not the patronizing, syrypy soothing and approval one gives to a retarded child.

[TwoBigFish]

1) Repealing the drug prohibition.

Agree in the case of many (probably most) drugs.


2) Raising the minimum wage.

Disagree, but more out of principle, and disgust for government sanction/control than for practical reasons.


3) Identifying community leaders and where they are captive audience (ie, the old lady who knows EVERYONE, the salons where women spend a lot of time talking to their hair dresser etc) and spending a LOT of money educating them on social programs to help pay for education, how to advocate positive things like education and contraception, where there are current job openings and scholarships etc.

Agree totally, and I have always thought that all forms of welfare should be community instead of federally based, so that cases can be taken care of on a case-by-case basis, instead of doling out checks to people who could do better and leaving out the few people who really need/deserve it.

Good constructive debate inculdes solutions ... now we need a bunch of Js to get this stuff done.

-C

[TwoBigFish]

Criminal behavior.

Everyone who commits a crime is evil and should be shot. They shouldn't be allowed to even attempt to rebuild their lives ever. The stigma of having broken the law (because only evil people break laws and good people never break any laws ever) should follow them like a black cloud everywhere they go. No matter how stupid, or unrealistic the law too (after all if you wanna smoke pot you're a evil person and should be dealt with accordingly. And heaven forbid you're trying to make a dollar that can't be taxed.)

Poor people should just be happy being poor (because after all in a capitalist society someone has to be poor for the economy to work). Society at large shouldn't even consider the idea that there are gapping flaws in the system, entire communities left out, or behind, because these things are just a result of people not trying hard enough to succeed (you know those people like being disenfranchised).

We should just round them all up and shoot them all. That'll show them, and that will stop anyone else from ever thinking about breaking the laws.


I wonder why the U.S has more people in prison than every other country in the world put together? I guess it's because everybody else just kills their criminals...


You're still dodging the question, though artfully. I guess if you keep on doing it, I'll have to let it go because your intentions will be clear, but for now I must ask again ...

If you don't like punishment and consequence, what would you like to see happen? What *would* work? What would fix the "gaping flaws."

Just be a man and type it out ... :whyi:

-C

[Johnny]

Guilt mongering? In my world what you just did (telling me to fuck off) is utterly disrespectful, and I suspect it is in your world too...

I don't care

[Johnny]

I don't care

No I don't

[Johnny]

To clarify, I think he wants the amount of sympathy and respect appropriate to give another human being, not the patronizing, syrypy soothing and approval one gives to a retarded child.

I'm not trained nor qualified to care for retarded children

[kendoiwan]

You're still dodging the question, though artfully. I guess if you keep on doing it, I'll have to let it go because your intentions will be clear, but for now I must ask again ...

If you don't like punishment and consequence, what would you like to see happen? What *would* work? What would fix the "gaping flaws."

Just be a man and type it out ... :whyi:

-C

The system we have works just fine.

[kendoiwan]

I don't care


Which is why violence will always be a way of life... some people don't respect anything else it seems.

[TwoBigFish]

The system we have works just fine.

Well, it's nice that there is a record of your typical liberal standpoint - you berate the system (which does have lots of flaws, though we disagree on what they are) but have no idea how to fix it.

We all wish we could live in the land of Sesame Street where you can tell Cookie Monster you're sorry, give back the cookie and we can all be friends again - but some of us realize that man is NOT basically good, and there will be crime and violence.

I wish feverently that there was magical way to know who would not re-offend, and let them get on with their lives stigma free, but I don't find it to be worth the safety of others and society to just assume that hardened criminals can be taken at their word when they "pwomise not to do it again, daddy." There is no perfect system, so we do the best with what we have.

Please, if you have a way to move us into Mr. Roger's universe, let it be known.

-C

(John Kerry has a plan to stop terrorism and the war in one fell swoop ... only catch? He won't tell you 'til he's elected).

Judge for yourself.

[kendoiwan]

Well, it's nice that there is a record of your typical liberal standpoint - you berate the system (which does have lots of flaws, though we disagree on what they are) but have no idea how to fix it.

We all wish we could live in the land of Sesame Street where you can tell Cookie Monster you're sorry, give back the cookie and we can all be friends again - but some of us realize that man is NOT basically good, and there will be crime and violence.

I wish feverently that there was magical way to know who would not re-offend, and let them get on with their lives stigma free, but I don't find it to be worth the safety of others and society to just assume that hardened criminals can be taken at their word when they "pwomise not to do it again, daddy." There is no perfect system, so we do the best with what we have.

Please, if you have a way to move us into Mr. Roger's universe, let it be known.

-C

(John Kerry has a plan to stop terrorism and the war in one fell swoop ... only catch? He won't tell you 'til he's elected).

Judge for yourself.


Condesension, unproven assumptions, and dogma can move moutains...

[TwoBigFish]

Condesension, unproven assumptions, and dogma can move moutains...

Okay, we all understand what you think about me and *my* ideas, so lets move on ... you're obviously more schooled in the classroom of crime and incarceration, and far better qualified to offer a solution. Are you going to, or are you going to keep calling me a dogmatic nazi (in principle)?

WHAT THE HECK DO YOU THINK UNCLE SAM IS OBLIGATED OR OUGHT TO BE EMPOWERED TO DO?

-C

By the way, just ignore me if you're going to refuse to answer. It's sad to keep answering with ambiguity - and not becoming to your point of view.

Meshou had well-presented input.

[meshou]

Agree in the case of many (probably most) drugs.I'm hardline, since I think crack and heroin trade causes more death and crime than pot.


Disagree, but more out of principle, and disgust for government sanction/control than for practical reasons.I think it's a matter of degrees.

While I am, in principal, opposed to government involvement, I have to look at what would happen in this case if it were not. It got involved out of nessicity-- child workers being paid pennies a day is not good, and would have continued indefinately.

I think that there NEEDS to be a minimum wage. Companies would and do pay people starving wages when they can get away with it. Nowadays, I think individuals simply do not have the power and resources to compete with companies, and now the government barely does, as evidenced by the fact companies now hove the power to prevent the minimum wage from going up for decades.


Agree totally, and I have always thought that all forms of welfare should be community instead of federally based, so that cases can be taken care of on a case-by-case basis, instead of doling out checks to people who could do better and leaving out the few people who really need/deserve it. I think it would be more effective if the welfare were more community-centric, but I think there is a point where effectiveness takes a nose dive.

Simply put, you do not have the personal resourses to make a difference in a ghetto. You have money, but no exposure to life in one. You don't know the people, and you would not be trusted. Likewise, though some solutions might be obvious to you, others will completely elude you.

Someone who had all that likely does not have the money or the time. Some might not have the insight that being removed from a situation has. Some have stuff lower on Maslow's pyrymid to worry about.

So, you need a combination of extensive experience in the place, a varied perspective, a LARGE amount of personal funding, interpersonal charm, education.... community involvement is crucial, but some of that would need to be provided by an institution like a government or a corporation. The amount of resources, focus, and organization would be very difficult otherwise.

Relying purely on the goodness of the world to help the people who are worst off in it is not going to work, I think. I think it is possible for a community to tell a government that it wants the impoverished taken care of. I think that's part of what a government is for.

I think a happy medium when it comes to effectiveness is finding out who in a community is most respected and well liked, and pour government money into making them effective at proving information.

There is a MAJOR downside to this-- I am proposing government funded agents in a society whose aim it is to change the values and culture of that community in a government sanctioned way. To ME, this does not quite sound kosher. Would I rather have a corporation do it? An individual? So who would have the funding and resources? Who would decide what propeganda to hand out? Is it better to simply give very basic tequniques of information gathering and spreading, and allow these "leaders" to decide how to use it, at the risk they may not be as effective?

I'm giving myself a headache. I propose Kendowan become rich and start a charity that does this. Better him than anyone I can think of.

[TwoBigFish]

I think that there NEEDS to be a minimum wage. Companies would and do pay people starving wages when they can get away with it. Nowadays, I think individuals simply do not have the power and resources to compete with companies, and now the government barely does, as evidenced by the fact companies now hove the power to prevent the minimum wage from going up for decades.

Well, I really think that the union mentality (which is a whole new soap box I'll pass on for now) has evolved to the point that the minimum wage may actually be more of a harm than help to getting good wages, but since I am not an economist, I am very very willing to admit that this may not be the case.

I think it was meant well and had it's place, but we may need to move on in the near future.


I think it would be more effective if the welfare were more community-centric, but I think there is a point where effectiveness takes a nose dive.

When I say I want it to be community centric, I don't mean to just rely on goodwill either - I just mean that the funding, taxing, voting, distributing and so on should all be decided locally, paid locally and voted on locally. Not some blanket mandate that is put through so much red tape that the majority is spent in expenses, half is lining the pockets of crooked politicians and the rest is being poorly distributed to the people.

Good stuff, good stuff.

-C

[SensEye]

SensEye, the way you worded it (if done right, if not doubt...) you've set it up for the opposing argument. There's an abundance of cases where it has not been done right, and where there's plenty of doubt. And I think that's more about justice than bleeding hearts.
I see your point, however, I think there could be another standard introduced. Beyond a reasonable doubt for a life sentence, and with little or no doubt for an execution.

Let's face it, there are cases, where there is no doubt. Caught on video survellience, reliable eyewitnesses, overwhelming dna type evidence (caught with murder weapon, fingerprints/hair at crime scene, victims blood on clothing, etc.) In those cases society owes the murderer nothing. The taking of an innocent life should result in forfeit of one's own. Swift, immediate, (and thereby economical) execution is the answer.

And many of these horrid miscarriages of justice where innocents are railroaded are in the past. Racism is much more contained now than it was 40 years ago, and technology has improved both in the forensic and survellience areas. The law is behind the times.

And note, I am talking about murder only here, commiting property crimes is a much less serious offence that would never call for execution in my view.

[coffeezombie]

When I say I want it to be community centric, I don't mean to just rely on goodwill either - I just mean that the funding, taxing, voting, distributing and so on should all be decided locally, paid locally and voted on locally. Not some blanket mandate that is put through so much red tape that the majority is spent in expenses, half is lining the pockets of crooked politicians and the rest is being poorly distributed to the people.

That sounds like a recipe for communities to do whatever it takes to keep the poor out of their city. They might as well put a gate around it and post guards with guns. I'm sure you wouldn't mind that.

[TwoBigFish]

That sounds like a recipe for communities to do whatever it takes to keep the poor out of their city. They might as well put a gate around it and post guards with guns. I'm sure you wouldn't mind that.

If you think people are so depraved, why am I the one getting bashed for saying humans are basically bad?

Considering Americans give more to global charity than any other nation in the world, I think we have come to a point of community compassion that allows for charitable action.

edit paste - We are also the same people who run the federal treasury ... do you think it's the saints running D.C. that make sure poor folk get bread and gov'mt cheese?

It's people who can't get their own minds out of the racist and socio-prejudiced past decades that think the rest of the country is still stuck there with them.

-C

[coffeezombie]

Considering Americans give more to global charity than any other nation in the world, I think we have come to a point of community compassion that allows for charitable action.

Charity is fine with me. That's what our national tax system is. A redistribution of wealth.

[TwoBigFish]

Well, as much as I really love to debate (and I do!) I am headed to an unveiling ceremony at a women’s museum that is going to make up in complimentary libations what it lacks in intellectual honesty. While there, I shall schmooze and sell to the best of my limited social ability and cocktail down my depression over this most disappointing day in the dining industry.

Wish me luck ... or a good selection of red. ;)

-C

I'll be back - and like Arnold, that's a threat, not a promise.

[TwoBigFish]

Kendoiwan -

By the way (before I go) my little sister just reminded me of a very pertinent fact in this whole rehab thing. My brother in law spent 1997-2003 in federal prison, and went to work as soon as he got out.

Right now he is managing a Firestone and making more money than I can shake a stick at.

But I guess that kind of makes your claims of a choiceless ushering into a life of crime sort of ... not true ... I'm sure you'll have some radical reason why you're still right, and I wait with bated breath to find out what it is.

-C

[coffeezombie]

By the way (before I go) my little sister just reminded me of a very pertinent fact in this whole rehab thing. My brother in law spent 1997-2003 in federal prison, and went to work as soon as he got out.

Right now he is managing a Firestone and making more money than I can shake a stick at.

That's why you send people to correctional facilities -- to rehabilitate them, not to put them away for life or to kill them.

[meshou]

But I guess that kind of makes your claims of a choiceless ushering into a life of crime sort of ... not true ... I'm sure you'll have some radical reason why you're still right, and I wait with bated breath to find out what it is. I think excptions don't speak to overall truths. Statistically, I believe people convicted of crimes have a great deal of difficulty finding a job or getting above a certain income level.

Of course, I would likely have little trouble. I have enough access to family who'd be willing to buy my way into a better education or location. I have access to professional people of a cerain income who like me well enough to speak well of me in eloquent, college educated letters to potential employers or organizations that might help me out.

If you're family is middle class, no doubt you can buy yourself back into it once you're out of prision.

[kendoiwan]

Kendoiwan -

By the way (before I go) my little sister just reminded me of a very pertinent fact in this whole rehab thing. My brother in law spent 1997-2003 in federal prison, and went to work as soon as he got out.

Right now he is managing a Firestone and making more money than I can shake a stick at.

But I guess that kind of makes your claims of a choiceless ushering into a life of crime sort of ... not true ... I'm sure you'll have some radical reason why you're still right, and I wait with bated breath to find out what it is.

-C


I love this... I really do. You have one white success story I have ten black not so success stories(at least ten, but if I widen my net to acquantances then the number balloons)... You have no idea of the circumstances surrounding his good fortune, I am intimately aware of the details surrounding their struggles...(childhood friends, brothers, cousins)

I have it all wrong. There are no problems in this country. They just don't want to work, and it's clearly a lack of effort on their parts which is leading them not to be like your brother-in-law... Race, class, culture and resources have nothing at all to do with it. I'll be sure to relay the message. "Quite complaining fellas it's all your fault, a middle class white woman from texas who knows all about us poor inner-city folk and our lazy ways told me so."&lt;_&lt;

[kendoiwan]

Now, now, it's not robbery, it's dealing. You get caught after the first couple of robberies, and there's no room for growth. You may never get caught if you deal, and you can make hundreds of thousands a year if you're smart and discreet.

If you're not, you might have to choose between shooting and being shot.

If I had to choose between a lifetime of $7.50 an hour at McDonald's the rest of my days and dealing, I'd go for the one that would let me feed my kids in a heartbeat, even if it meant I might have to kill someone someday.

When you have no credit, no one will lend to you for college. When you've got shitty schools and get Fs, no college will take you. When you had a kid at 12 because there was no sex ed or condoms available, and you have to work to feed them rather than go to college, you aren't going to go. If you need to work full time just to afford housing and food, and if you aren't a natural A+ student, getting into community college and making good grades can be a bit of a stretch. Speding four years on an associate's so you can make just a little bit more is a looooong, soul crushing road.

It can be done, but it depends on so many choices in the beginning of your life that your circumstance easily takes away from you.

Had to say that you so get it...

[the_stumpycat]

I have it all wrong. There are no problems in this country. They just don't want to work, and it's clearly a lack of effort on their parts which is leading them not to be like your brother-in-law... Race, class, culture and resources have nothing at all to do with it. I'll be sure to relay the message. "Quite complaining fellas it's all your fault, a middle class white woman from texas who knows all about us poor inner-city folk and our lazy ways told me so."&lt;_&lt;


I refer to my earlier post (number 24 if I am referring to something else by accident).
http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=214362&postcount=24

I don't claim to understand this - I am not racist, I don't believe my friends, employer, or government are - but looking at those statistics, I am hit with the un-mistakable fact that there is not equality between black and white in America (and I am sure England to).

As I say, I don't claim to understand it, and I don't know the answer - but I do know that we won't find an answer until people remove heads from arses and accept that there is an issue here.

[TwoBigFish]

I love this... I really do. You have one white success story I have ten black not so success stories(at least ten, but if I widen my net to acquantances then the number balloons)... You have no idea of the circumstances surrounding his good fortune, I am intimately aware of the details surrounding their struggles...(childhood friends, brothers, cousins)

Um, I *am* aware of his circumstances.

By the way, I have said all along that you are right, there are some flaws, there is no perfection this side of Eden. I can admit that things need to be fixed, and at least have a plan - all you do is isuue the same child's cry of "unfair!"

LIFE IS NOT FAIR, no one owes a fair life to you and no one deserves a fair shake.

The only promise you get, and it's a damn good one, is that you will be allowed to pursue happiness & grasp it if you're able. The flip side of that coin is that you're also allowed to fail. There are people in other parts of the world that would kill for what we have - people who don't even have personal religious freedom, much less social freedom.

Government sponsored pampering only drives people to a sheepish lap-dog mentality, cowering and licking the hand of it's master (i.e. the democrats hold over many minority groups). There are relegated to an unproductive mass, just grateful for the scraps being fed to them - is that a proud stance? Is that human dignity?

Look at Rome and the concept of "bread and circuses" - is that what you want? Would that make you happy? Would you like your friends and family to grow fat and complacent on government cheese, following along like sheep as their leaders coddle them into a socialist society where their freedoms and rights are dirt?

All I can say is that we both agree there is a problem, but you have no solution. If you're self-professed ghetto experience has taught you only to complain and not how to solve, what good has it done? I don't care if you ever agree with me, but I hope to God that you get your formidable brain cells into line and start using the angst and resolve you've got to lead a charge to change instead of leading the current line of all the other useless complainers in your corner - we have enough of those.

-C

[wildcat]

This is the central issue - true in all countries with a high standard of living. The Scandinavian countries have no death penalty or barbaric cutting-off-of-hands and they have a very low level of crime compared to U.S.

I would like one of our Scandinavian friends to comment on this, perhaps my perception is wrong.
You are right PsiKik. Not only Scandinavia but most of EU is socialistic. Countries like Estonia and Latvia had to prohibit the death penalty before they could become members of EU. We do not accept the death penalty.

[Johnny]

You are right PsiKik. Not only Scandinavia but most of EU is socialistic. Countries like Estonia and Latvia had to prohibit the death penalty before they could become members of EU. We do not accept the death penalty.

Another "final solution"...sigh...when will Europeans finally let go of narcissism?

Well the EU was certainly a good idea while it lasted!

Capital punishment isn't a prescribed punishment for those found guilty of murder. It's simply an option for the jury to recommend and the judge to endorse, and there are various classifications of murder where the death penalty isn't an option at all.

[wildcat]

Another "final solution"...sigh...when will Europeans finally let go of narcissism?

Well the EU was certainly a good idea while it lasted!

Capital punishment isn't a prescribed punishment for those found guilty of murder. It's simply an option for the jury to recommend and the judge to endorse, and there are various classifications of murder where the death penalty isn't an option at all.
Do you know what EU is?
EU is peace in Europe.

A good idea while it lasted? Says mockingly who? Says our friend, the American.

Why do you want us to plunge into war again? To sell weapons?

EU is the outcome after Hitler.

But if we dig deeper, we see that EU is the product of the French Revolution.
So was America.
Before Bush.

[MacGuffin]

But if we dig deeper, we see that EU is the product of the French Revolution.
So was America.I know we've covered this before but, WTF?

[wildcat]

I know we've covered this before but, WTF?
Well.. it is not crazy enough stuff in the WTF domain.. since the idea of American historical affinity with European progress which I brought up- is in no way inflammatory or even unorthodox.
Thank you for you kind suggestion all the same MacGuffin.

[mgb]

I know we've covered this before but, WTF?

Seriously. Just back away slowly.

Even better delete these last three posts and pretend this never happened. At least do it for Christmas.

[kendoiwan]

Um, I *am* aware of his circumstances.

By the way, I have said all along that you are right, there are some flaws, there is no perfection this side of Eden. I can admit that things need to be fixed, and at least have a plan - all you do is isuue the same child's cry of "unfair!"

LIFE IS NOT FAIR, no one owes a fair life to you and no one deserves a fair shake.

The only promise you get, and it's a damn good one, is that you will be allowed to pursue happiness & grasp it if you're able. The flip side of that coin is that you're also allowed to fail. There are people in other parts of the world that would kill for what we have - people who don't even have personal religious freedom, much less social freedom.

Government sponsored pampering only drives people to a sheepish lap-dog mentality, cowering and licking the hand of it's master (i.e. the democrats hold over many minority groups). There are relegated to an unproductive mass, just grateful for the scraps being fed to them - is that a proud stance? Is that human dignity?


All I can say is that we both agree there is a problem, but you have no solution. If you're self-professed ghetto experience has taught you only to complain and not how to solve, what good has it done? I don't care if you ever agree with me, but I hope to God that you get your formidable brain cells into line and start using the angst and resolve you've got to lead a charge to change instead of leading the current line of all the other useless complainers in your corner - we have enough of those.

-C


Lords knows I'm tired, (goddamn) I'm so tired. Coming up hustlers is who I admired. And that's what I aspired to be. Or try to be some kinda emcee... them was my options. Spent my time on the street, fuck a job, if, I don't grind then I don't eat... scratch that... got my education, put in applications, still got no occupation. (Whoa) Half of us blacks is unemployed... and working minimum wage is something I avoid. Man, that shit don't pay no rent, and if it don't make dollars then it don't make sense. To hear you tell it I was dead on arrival... like playing by the rules coexists with survival... and I'm do that by any means, if it comes down to pulling a caper or serving fiends... Be a cold day in hell before you see me on welfare... I'd rather dig my dirt so you could see me in hell, yeah, that's how I see it, that's how I'm living. I'm unapologetic, don't care if I'm forgiven. Cause, you ain't gotta walk in my shoes, and you couldn't relate to my ill street blues... so you can judge me, accuse and point the finger, my response flip a bird in the air and let it linger... your solution don't fit with my reality, so I'm either paid or dead that's my mentality, so if the streets claim me, then i'm a causualty, of the war on poverty. Is that how it's gotta be? couldn't tell ya but that's the way is for sure... Facts are facts, say no more...

Thanks for the muse.

You still assume to know more than you do as far as my beliefs are concern tho'

[mgb]

Cause, you ain't gotta walk in my shoes, and you couldn't relate to my ill street blues... so you can judge me, accuse and point the finger, tho'

I'd actually like to see her live in your shoes for a week or two.

[TwoBigFish]

Be a cold day in hell before you see me on welfare... I'd rather dig my dirt so you could see me in hell, yeah, that's how I see it, that's how I'm living.

Yup - no ghetto-dwellers on welfare, right?

I'm not saying all of them are, but what do you think the welfare statistics are, after all? And how many of those people don't mind a bit picking up a check, selling crack on the side and still maligning the country that is doling out the food stamps they trade for cigs?

You can tell me I don't "know what it's like" - and you'd be right to a certain extent - but circumstances don't change absolute morality, nor do they change justice - which is a concept that sees no color, creed or status (notice I said the CONCEPT - there are some enforcers that have a problem with that, but that is also a two way road). Perspectives may be different, but that doesn't give them the power to alter reality. Life may be hard for some, but that doesn't grant them a magical ticket to make it miserable for others.

It doesn't matter if I don't know what every gritty detail of your day to day slog is - although I think that is a bogus claim anyway, a dodge really. You don't have to be there to know Antartica is cold, and you don't have to be in Ethiopia to cry over starving children (or help them out, for that matter). Don't assume I have no ability to see your point of view just because I don't share it.

-C &lt;_&lt;

[Eileen]

Yup - no ghetto-dwellers on welfare, right?

I'm not saying all of them are, but what do you think the welfare statistics are, after all? And how many of those people don't mind a bit picking up a check, selling crack on the side and still maligning the country that is doling out the food stamps they trade for cigs?

You can tell me I don't "know what it's like" - and you'd be right to a certain extent - but circumstances don't change absolute morality, nor do they change justice - which is a concept that sees no color, creed or status (notice I said the CONCEPT - there are some enforcers that have a problem with that, but that is also a two way road). Perspectives may be different, but that doesn't give them the power to alter reality. Life may be hard for some, but that doesn't grant them a magical ticket to make it miserable for others.

It doesn't matter if I don't know what every gritty detail of your day to day slog is - although I think that is a bogus claim anyway, a dodge really. You don't have to be there to know Antartica is cold, and you don't have to be in Ethiopia to cry over starving children (or help them out, for that matter). Don't assume I have no ability to see your point of view just because I don't share it.

-C &lt;_&lt;


Sure--the rules of justice shouldn't change just for people in rough situations. However, that's why we have to focus on crime *prevention*, which absolutely must include some kind of outreach and support for people who suffer from institutional discrimination. Of course... that requires a concession that there is such a problem.

[Johnny]

...if we dig deeper, we see that EU is the product of the French Revolution.
So was America.
Before Bush.
I'm not mocking peace and love I'm just skeptical of your assessment is all, wildcat

I don't own a gun never had the compelling need for one

But cows are still killed for beef and soldiers must still defend the walls despite the promises you make on behalf of European Union

[wildcat]

I'm not mocking peace and love I'm just skeptical of your assessment is all, wildcat

I don't own a gun never had the compelling need for one

But cows are still killed for beef and soldiers must still defend the walls despite the promises you make on behalf of European Union
I eat fish, Johnny.

Only cowards need guns. Plus the steroid-grabbing ex-actor who is no longer welcome in Europe.

European soldiers still defend the walls? This is exactly the point in the integration policy. They do not.

When I lived in Baden in the immediate vicinity of the French border, I often dropped in France in the evening to have a beer or coffee in the nearby village on the Rhein. Had it not been for the river, I would not have known I had crossed the border.

And this was forty years ago.
To cross the border between France and Germany sixty years ago was a different story.

France and Germany are so intertwined in their economy it is impossible to wind the clock back to Hitler.

The danger to integration is not that people speak diverse languages. The educated classes are highly multilingual. Maybe less in Britain, though.

The danger to integration is the popular vote.
The immense stupidity of the masses, that is.

[Johnny]

France and Germany are so intertwined in their economy it is impossible to wind the clock back to Hitler.

...

The danger to integration is the popular vote.
The immense stupidity of the masses, that is.

You can't make up your mind, wildcat! :lol:

[wildcat]

You can't make up your mind, wildcat! :lol:
Yes.
It is the curse to be an INTP ...

[Dom]

never understood how come the germans and french are so friendly, when you consider history, as opposed to the french and british?


lol

[Johnny]

Yes.
It is the curse to be an INTP ...

Yes I know. Were you to rail against the EU, I would (if so interested) likely try to defend its existence and work there.

*sigh*

I wished for a compass from Santa this Christmas...as well as towards another with whom I have had difficulty in getting along. At least I asked for it...

[Darkness]

Isn't it funny how criminals suddenly find God in prison? I find it assuming that some put up an act to look for sympathy from the guible masses. Most career criminals go back to their former self once released or spared death by execution. Its a biological fact that the brain of a criminal works differently than a normal person. This has nothing to do with the Nature vs Nurture debate. Scientists have studied this and continue with their research on why? Basically, the brain activity in the cerebral cortex is low for criminals and they have a tendency to make a wrong implusive choice when faced with Fight vs Flight split second decisions. Criminal intent is behavior that is hardwired from a biological standpoint. I am not passing my final judgement because I'm not in a position to judge anyone...

[wildcat]

And I thought I was the only jackass in the forum!

Wait a minute.. I am the only jackass.. which means the other jackass is in another forum..
So I guess you can all relax, guys. Eat popcorn and take it easy. Christmas is coming.

I was lying awake at night and I thought about my friend Johnny.
I thought: there are only a few days till Christmas. I am sure Johnny has forgotten to buy something for his mother in law. I must help him out.
Then I read in the paper that THE SILVER SPOON is a great hit in America. It is a cook book and costs you only forty dollars, Johnny! In Europe it costs 33 euro. Why is everything cheaper in Europe?
Go to the bookshop and you are off the hook.
I threw this for free.

[wildcat]

never understood how come the germans and french are so friendly, when you consider history, as opposed to the french and british?


lol
France was occupied during the war.
The British remained fighting throughout the war.
After the war, France had to deal with the touchy subject of the occupation.
The British did not suffer from this necessity. Therefore their world view remained black and white.

[wildcat]

Isn't it funny how criminals suddenly find God in prison? I find it assuming that some put up an act to look for sympathy from the guible masses. Most career criminals go back to their former self once released or spared death by execution. Its a biological fact that the brain of a criminal works differently than a normal person. This has nothing to do with the Nature vs Nurture debate. Scientists have studied this and continue with their research on why? Basically, the brain activity in the cerebral cortex is low for criminals and they have a tendency to make a wrong implusive choice when faced with Fight vs Flight split second decisions. Criminal intent is behavior that is hardwired from a biological standpoint. I am not passing my final judgement because I'm not in a position to judge anyone...
The activity level of the cerebral cortex is low among all extraverts. Actually, extraversion is the result of the low activity level of the cortex. Criminals are usually extraverts but extraverts are not usually criminals. Things like ADHD etc. weigh more than extraversion.
Abject poverty brings about criminality and schizophrenia.

[Kilby]

These are my opinions. If he killed 4 people and the proper authorities found him liable, then the death penalty fits. You can't make exceptions for murderers or else the whole system will collapse. Consistency is neccessary to keep the system healthy. Without a death penalty, it is a waste of money to keep them housed.

[wildcat]

The penal system is already collapsed. We have a great part of the African American community carcerated. Indiscriminately arrested by a sloppy police, indiscriminately judged by a sloppy judge, indiscri minately carcerated by a sloppy system.

[wildcat]

France was occupied during the war.
The British remained fighting throughout the war.
After the war, France had to deal with the touchy subject of the occupation.
The British did not suffer from this necessity. Therefore their world view remained black and white.
Why the penal system is different in Europe?

Europe was occupied during the war.
America remained war free zone.
After the war, Europe had to deal with the occupation.
The Americans did not have this necessity. Therefore their world view remained black and white.

It all comes down to experience.
Open a history book.

[Xander]

Well this is a nice friendly chat!
Ken - I think you need to see that your perspective is limited. You are right but the extreme nature of your locale has coloured your vision (no pun intended). Perhaps once your POV has been widened to include more situations then you will develop a very strong idea. You should expect to be shot down at this point.
Cath- Ever heard the expression "Your perspective defines your reality."?
If so then you really should muse more on its impact on your thinking and it's implications here.
In all the present the system shows how limited any set of rules are.
The discussion here echoes it as well.
No matter how well concieved or applied, rules will always be fallable. Guidlines themselves can never be wrong but that is a get out clause open to massive abuse.
Oh and I would take this man's place on his day of execution if it meant that he would be reformed. That choice is about me not about him or his crimes and to me is no different than the decision to become a soldier, aside from playing with all those nice toys!

As for the insults and the "I'm too clever to explain myself so I can't be bothered" nonsense. I'd reckon it rooted in the insecurities in the argument put across by our less clever brethren who wish to defend points which have no solid mass behind.
Just admit that some things are illogical.
It's the only logical conclusion.

[TwoBigFish]

Sure--the rules of justice shouldn't change just for people in rough situations. However, that's why we have to focus on crime *prevention*, which absolutely must include some kind of outreach and support for people who suffer from institutional discrimination. Of course... that requires a concession that there is such a problem.

I strongly advocate prevention, education, empathy, charity, brotherhood and effort on behalf of those who need it - I stand behind that for people who 1) got themselves where they are, *are* at fault for their situation but are ready for a change and for people who 2) through no fault of their own suffer want.

The only thing I do not allow for is making excuses for people who cross societal lines and then want to shift the blame.

The buck stops somewhere, and it generally doesn't go far.

-C

[TwoBigFish]

As for the insults and the "I'm too clever to explain myself so I can't be bothered" nonsense. I'd reckon it rooted in the insecurities in the argument put across by our less clever brethren who wish to defend points which have no solid mass behind. Just admit that some things are illogical.
It's the only logical conclusion.

Who is this directed at? 'Cause as far as I can tell, the only real contender in this thread who won't back up his opinion with more than a pity plea and rap lyrics is kendoiwan ...

I did engage in some slight insults, for which I apologize.

-C

[SensEye]

Oh and I would take this man's place on his day of execution if it meant that he would be reformed.Why? How is the situation of a dead Xander and a reformed Tookie superior to the situation of a dead Tookie and the current Xander?

Also, for the record, I sincerely doubt you would follow through on your claim if the possibility was not hypothetical.

[Xander]

Why? How is the situation of a dead Xander and a reformed Tookie superior to the situation of a dead Tookie and the current Xander?

Also, for the record, I sincerely doubt you would follow through on your claim if the possibility was not hypothetical.
Because it is so difficult to do something so nice with so little effort.
I have no fear of such a death but would like to think that I woudl leave a real lasting image in his life and others. All I ever really want is to be remembered kindly so this is a quite good choice.

[Xander]

Who is this directed at? 'Cause as far as I can tell, the only real contender in this thread who won't back up his opinion with more than a pity plea and rap lyrics is kendoiwan ...

I did engage in some slight insults, for which I apologize.

-C
It was directed at no one in particular as I've already seen the bunkers in this fight. I want no part in the war. Personaly I think everyone with a black or white opinion is wrong and that somewhere between the bunkers the truth is being shot to shit.
Oh and your still insulting him. Are we to presume that you wish to be labelled as someone who does this? Never to regain our respect until we say you have truely repented?
To forget is human. To forgive divine.
That is more of a moral compass in me than anything else I've seen here or anywhere else (yes it is still monitored by common sense).

[ApeTheDog]

Well I don't agree with the death penalty at all. It doesn't work to punish people for killing others, and then to do it yourself. I don't agree that prison is a punishment either. I just do not think anyone has the right to punish another person.

Prison is a necesary evil, when people are so disruptive to society, that society needs to keep them out of it. It is not as much a punishment for the criminal, as it is a reward for everybody who is not in jail.

The death penalty has no deterring effect at all, it simply doesn't work, it's inhuman, dangerous, irreversible, biased, used not enough to warrant it existing in the first place, brutal, and utterly pointless. And it's a relic. I don't understand why it is still being used - it doesn't make a good case for the USA being the bastion of democracy and civilization it seems to pride itself in being.

[Dom]

ok any chance of a summing up of where we are?

I'd just love to get 'hammering' into this one!

but 20 pages of posts are a little too many to read?

[ApeTheDog]

I don't think we are anywhere - it's not like much of what we discuss has any effect on reality.

I'm pretty sure we are here: Tookie Williams is getting the death penalty, or has gotten it, and some people are against it, whilst others are not. What is your position?

[Dom]

Against, in principal.

And just to upset everyone, it's a black and white issue for me (I only have like 1or 2 left!!)

A guy is alleged to have done something wrong. Fallible biased humans, collect evidence against him, more fallible biased humans argue about the evidence, some more, utterly unqualified fallible biased humans decide if he did it or not, another qualified but fallible biased human sentences him.

Where in all of that do you feel certain (and it has to be certain, after all there is no bringing him back) that you've got the right guy?

But thats all hypotheical, in Tookie's case it's a bit different.

Firstly utterly inhumane ifor him to have to wait 24 years on death row. Can some of you american guys explain that to me? why does it take so long? When we used to have it here after the automatic appeal, if there is no room for further appeal, then we'd execute him pretty much within the week!

With Tookie the question isn't about whether capital punishement is right or wrong, but whether a mans positive actions should be taken into consideration with regards to celemncy or communction of sentence to life imprisionment?

I'd answer that question with a question, Tookie was effective in helping educate kids to stay away from gang culture, so I ask this question, Setting aside vengence, is society better protected by his death or by his anti gang work?

History has taught us that harsh punishments do not deter crime, so think about your answers and try to set aside vengence.

[Xander]

To attempt to get us further this is where I'm at:-

-Yes to death sentence. It's not about us it's about them. If they have done something sooo bad it deserves this then remove the offender from society. (falability will be covered later but for the main part I ask so what? Everything is fallable why not the death sentence?)

-The legal system needs revising. A mighty task but without which it will eventually fall. It's inevitable.

-Perhaps our present situation (and I know I'll getting kicked for this one) is down to the fact that we are getting more females into the system. Hold on. It is the tendancy with females to be more nuturing and so it wouldbe logical to expect their influence on the legal system to be similar. Perhaps when this is better integrated with the more common male approach then the justice system will work.

-I am as yet confused however at whether the justice system deals with those who have broken the law or deals with the victims desire for revenge?
I'd see it as the former and in which case have no problem with more harsh treatment. But before this could be done then the system needs an overhaul to remove those in it for money completely.
Why are lawyers paid a fortune for their work but nurses are paid a pittance?
Seems to me that the legal system would be better off if it weren't seen as a get rich quick scheme and was actually a sacrifice to be part of.

[Dom]

-Ahh everything is fallible but not final. The death penalty is final, shouldn't we be removing as much fallibility as we can anyway? even more so when the effects are utterly irreversable.

-The legal system is fine, any complete revision would ruin 800 years of hard work. it's liek our constitution here in Britian, any attempt to formalise it in the written form would ruin and stifle it. Not to mention overhauling the legal system on which our entire civilisation is based (The Rule of Law) our government is subject to, not masters of. And rewritting of it would mean the loss of all kinds of rights and protections, and would result in a crippled system. After all the only people who could write this new law or system would be politicians????

-Nope, females are now in the system, but as yet do not effect it much. There are far to few female judges to substaitate this claim and i think none of the Law Lords ,who ultimately interpret law, are women at all. May be in another 20/30 years time perhaps but not yet. It's still Male dominiated. vast majority of partners in legal firms are still men. All though somewhere between 60-70% of new solititors are female.


-Well here lies the problem, the Crown prosecutes the criminal not the victim or victims family. I.E it deals with those who break the law. It's like the queen starts, "you are accused of having broken my law" and it goes form there. It is therefore not about vengence on behalf of the victim or the victims family, it doesn't even consider it. Money? oh dear here we go, if you remove money then all you get would be a few very very talented individuals, who are there because they want to serve their nation, and aload of gumbis. They are paid as much as they are because we need alot of them and because they need to be rather bright. plus the real money is in commercial law and litigation. Criminal is considered rather badly paid as you get paid by the government to prosecute, and generaly by legal aid to defend.

On your other point: Why is my the incompetent manager in my department paid much more than 4 nurses? Why are people who own really huge compaines get huge pay outs, why does our system work the way it does? If you're going to complain that we don't pay those we value what they are really worth, then fine, but don't argue that others who also have value should be paid less.

Also it isn't a get rich quick scheme, I should know my wife is about to become one.

[Dom]

ER sorry am very very tired and grumpy, I didn't mean to sound so confrontational.

[kendoiwan]

Yup - no ghetto-dwellers on welfare, right?

I'm not saying all of them are, but what do you think the welfare statistics are, after all? And how many of those people don't mind a bit picking up a check, selling crack on the side and still maligning the country that is doling out the food stamps they trade for cigs?

You can tell me I don't "know what it's like" - and you'd be right to a certain extent - but circumstances don't change absolute morality, nor do they change justice - which is a concept that sees no color, creed or status (notice I said the CONCEPT - there are some enforcers that have a problem with that, but that is also a two way road). Perspectives may be different, but that doesn't give them the power to alter reality. Life may be hard for some, but that doesn't grant them a magical ticket to make it miserable for others.


It doesn't matter if I don't know what every gritty detail of your day to day slog is - although I think that is a bogus claim anyway, a dodge really. You don't have to be there to know Antartica is cold, and you don't have to be in Ethiopia to cry over starving children (or help them out, for that matter). Don't assume I have no ability to see your point of view just because I don't share it.

-C &lt;_&lt;

What I'm saying is that you just don't get it, it's not a matter of knowing the day to day details, its a matter of understanding the options I and my peers are presented with. You can't claim to relate to the choices I would or wouldn't make because you can't ever claim to have been faced with them... You couldn't realistically tell me what you would, or wouldn't do from your high horse... You have/had options that were never available to us, safety nets that we could only dream of, opportunities that we could only wish for. Your experience forms and informs your perspective. Even the most successful black person will tell you that they have to work twice as hard as a white person with comparable skills to get where they are in life...

And the concept of some sort of "absolute morality" is debatable at best and laughable at worst. And the idea of justice is just laughable period for so many reasons... high ideals I suppose, but not pragmatic in the the least... If that was the case then some sort of reperations would be coming down the pipe, no if ands or buts about it for starters, but we all know that day ain't coming because justice doesn't dictact how gov't is run, power, money, and influence does...

Food stamps? Christ, there are no such thing in this day and age... and imho if you lived on welfare selling crack on the side to supplement your income sounds like sound practice to me considering the little bit of money that you're "entitled" to.

[TwoBigFish]

What I'm saying is that you just don't get it, it's not a matter of knowing the day to day details, its a matter of understanding the options I and my peers are presented with. You can't claim to relate to the choices I would or wouldn't make because you can't ever claim to have been faced with them... You couldn't realistically tell me what you would, or wouldn't do from your high horse... You have/had options that were never available to us, safety nets that we could only dream of, opportunities that we could only wish for. Your experience forms and informs your perspective. Even the most successful black person will tell you that they have to work twice as hard as a white person with comparable skills to get where they are in life...

And the concept of some sort of "absolute morality" is debatable at best and laughable at worst. And the idea of justice is just laughable period for so many reasons... high ideals I suppose, but not pragmatic in the the least... If that was the case then some sort of reperations would be coming down the pipe, no if ands or buts about it for starters, but we all know that day ain't coming because justice doesn't dictact how gov't is run, power, money, and influence does...

Food stamps? Christ, there are no such thing in this day and age... and imho if you lived on welfare selling crack on the side to supplement your income sounds like sound practice to me considering the little bit of money that you're "entitled" to.


Well, that was better than rap lyrics.

1) If you truly believe that to govern/make decisions correctly, people have to have "experienced" the item they are deciding on, than there is no solution. The human experience is shared, but also isolated, and no individual can experience the plight of another, even in the exact same instance. Also, in all practicality, there is no judge that can experience, for instance, every racial plight, every geographical anomaly, every cultural difference, every monetary situation ... so on. That would be an unrealistic goal, don't you think?

2) You're not "entitled" to any money or "reparations" - forget the fact that every race has, at some point, suffered slavery - from Greece, to Egypt to America and yours is only the most recent - you also have no right to exact justice from people who never did you any wrong. Make a slave-owner pay? Oh yeah! I would be the first to take every penny from that person - but none of the taxpayers today were guilty of slavery anymore than you yourself can claim to have suffered it. Your great grandmother might have deserved reparations, but you, my friend, do not.

3) Don’t think I don’t know that it’s easier said than done. I have been the victim of some pretty disgusting abuse as a child, I have lived with no electricity or indoor plumbing, I have experienced a few hard days - and my mother has seven children, which she takes care of alone. We have been at rock bottom, and she never even THOUGHT about going criminal. Now, I’m not saying I can relate to your experience - I can’t - but I defy your logic when it always comes back to entitlement. It is not right, it is not logical. We are given one life to live, and we must answer for ourselves.

Many people have crawled from the gutters to greatness - would you take this path of possibility away in lieu of government handouts and “concessions” that imply you NEED them because you’re not good enough to make it on your own?

I can’t understand THAT logic.

-C

[eyebyte_atWork]

This argument is like comparing apples to oranges - both of you have good points - but they do not compare.

Sorry- I have been on boths sides of the fence - and you guys are not even on the same page.

I am not sure where the "entitlement" talk came in - but I think that any argument concerning "entitlements" is not coming from actual logical points - but from cultural bias.

Apples and Oranges people - Apples and Oranges.


An Apple can relate to being a fruit - but has no idea how an Orange lives and vice versa.

[coffeezombie]

The "entitlement" issue is secondary to the issue that all cultures and ethnicities in this country deserve an equal opportunity to prosper. With the way that the education system is inner cities, with the blight of them as the more prosperous continue to leave them and with the institutional racism that still exists presently in the system, I don't think that the system should rest until all ethnicities are basically on equal footing in this country. If it takes affirmative action to do that, then I have no problem with it occuring.

[TwoBigFish]

... institutional racism ...

Elaborate ... ?

-C

[eyebyte_atWork]

Oh lordy.

[coffeezombie]

Elaborate ... ?
Institutional Racism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism)

[TwoBigFish]

Institutional Racism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism)

Very cute - I was thinking more along the lines of examples. Specific, not general ...

-C

[mgb]

I remember the abortion thread I started. And Swift came out saying all this crazy shit. It was right before the racism threads started.

This thread takes me back to that, not because of the racism, but because of all the crazy shit being said.

[eyebyte_atWork]

Great Googa Mooga! - is that crazy enough?

[mgb]

Great Googa Mooga! - is that crazy enough?

Asking what Institutionalized Racism is, was a lot worse.

[kendoiwan]

This argument is like comparing apples to oranges - both of you have good points - but they do not compare.

Sorry- I have been on boths sides of the fence - and you guys are not even on the same page.

I am not sure where the "entitlement" talk came in - but I think that any argument concerning "entitlements" is not coming from actual logical points - but from cultural bias.

Apples and Oranges people - Apples and Oranges.


An Apple can relate to being a fruit - but has no idea how an Orange lives and vice versa.


She mentioned welfare which is an "entitlement" program and a person slinging crack on top of receiving that... I said the amount of money (maximum possible)a person is "entitled" to (which I meant tounge in cheek) was so minute that slinging crack to supplement sounds like a good idea... I mentioned reperations because she was babbling on about justice... I retorted if justice was anything more than lip service...

And as for her supposed arguement of people who weren't involved in slavery/jim crow, having to pay, you benefit from the legacy of slavery and racism if you've lived in this country for more than one generation for starters... or I could borrow a play from her book and just say "life isn't fair"

But like you said she and I don't speak the same language... I'm actually more interested in your thoughts on the matter...

[kendoiwan]

Asking what Institutionalized Racism is, was a lot worse.


:wacko:

[eyebyte_atWork]

She mentioned welfare which is an "entitlement" program and a person slinging crack on top of receiving that... I said the amount of money (maximum possible)a person is "entitled" to (which I meant tounge in cheek) was so minute that slinging crack to supplement sounds like a good idea... I mentioned reperations because she was babbling on about justice... I retorted if justice was anything more than lip service...

And as for her supposed arguement of people who weren't involved in slavery/jim crow, having to pay, you benefit from the legacy of slavery and racism if you've lived in this country for more than one generation for starters... or I could borrow a play from her book and just say "life isn't fair"

But like you said she and I don't speak the same language... I'm actually more interested in your thoughts on the matter...


Language - I think both of you put forth good arguments - but they support slightly different things. She is stating that a person is not neccessarely bogged down to where illegal income and methods are a must - you are saying that it is understandable considering all the contributing factors that some may fall into it. These arguments are close to each other - but not the same thing. Both of you are right - but focusing on socio-economic facts to back up your position leads to more debate on something I think we agree on (for the most part). The absolute truth is you are both right - not to the exlcusion of the others point of view.

Welfare is not "entitlement" per se- it was done to raise the mininum level of living standard of american citizens during the great depression - so that we do not live like third world countries. Over time this has been used by many in politics. (OK I know - Semantics)

[Dom]

hmmm

I thought about posting and then deiceded to stay out of a welfare argument between a couple of Americans.

Things are so different this side of the pond!

[SensEye]

Asking what Institutionalized Racism is, was a lot worse.But asking for specific examples of institutionalized racism is not.

Attempting to paint Cathina with a racist brush by linking her to Swift is not exactly condusive to open discussion either.

[eyebyte_atWork]

But asking for specific examples of institutionalized racism is not.

Attempting to paint Cathina with a racist brush by linking her to Swift is not exactly condusive to open discussion either.

Whoa! - who mentioned Swift? - no one should do that.

No - Cathina is nothing like Swift- I met her once - she is cool customer and none of her opinions comes close to Swift's.

[mgb]

But asking for specific examples of institutionalized racism is not.

Attempting to paint Cathina with a racist brush by linking her to Swift is not exactly condusive to open discussion either.

That wasn't what I was doing at all. That's why I mentioned the abortion thread. It was there he came out of the closet.