Limits of Abortion

[afton]

I was wondering, until what age of pregnancy is it ok to abort a baby?
7 months, 8 months, 9 months? Or is it simply up to the mother?

[ApeTheDog]

Always. A friend of mine got aborted by his mother when he was 23.

[Rajah]

Always. A friend of mine got aborted by his mother when he was 23.Dammit, stop making me injure myself laughing!

[Sue Denim]

Ask your mother.

[afton]

Always. A friend of mine got aborted by his mother when he was 23.
Hmm, that's a record length of pregnancy.
I wonder if it's pretty cool to be 23 years in a womb (the womb must
be quite big).

[afton]

Ask your mother.
I was not aborted

[Sue Denim]

I was not aborted
Not yet, anyway.

[Helios]

this is silly, I think if you are allowed to kill your baby on one day, you should be able to kill it the next. Who makes these random lines in the sand?

[jax0m]

I was wondering, until what age of pregnancy is it ok to abort a baby?
7 months, 8 months, 9 months? Or is it simply up to the mother?

It's hard to make a distinction here, because one could argue that if a mother could legally kill her infant at 9 months while still inside the womb, what would be the integral difference in her doing it a month later after she's given birth? Either way, it's sanctioned murder. Yes. I feel that aborting a child even early on in the pregnancy is homicide. However, I do believe that a woman has the right to her body - And I personally have no idea how I would feel if came right down to conceiving a child at 20 years old or eliminating a life growing inside me. What a horrid situation.

Seeing as how I don't have the personal experience on this, I'm not sure I can create an informed opinion. My mother had two abortions after I was born (my father raped her when she was trying to divorce him, she says) and I resent her for it. I grew up an only child without anyone to relate to. Maybe even if she would have had the children I wouldn't have had companions growing up either, but you never know. I'm bitter on this subject.

[Rajah]

Who makes these random lines in the sand?I'm pretty sure it's not afton, and for that I'm grateful.

[Madrigal]

this is silly, I think if you are allowed to kill your baby on one day, you should be able to kill it the next. Who makes these random lines in the sand?
It's always a good idea to kill babies. Even after they're born. Unfortunately, God makes them cute so we won't do it.

Seriously, I agree with your post though.

[Madrigal]

Always. A friend of mine got aborted by his mother when he was 23.
LMAO, God. I have a whole repertoire of your quotes to brighten my day at any moment, they're just hilarious!

[booyalab]

It's always a good idea to kill babies. Even after they're born. Unfortunately, God makes them cute so we won't do it.

Seriously, I agree with your post though.
killing babies-ok+ killing toddlers-not ok=random line in the sand

[Madrigal]

killing babies-ok+ killing toddlers-not ok=random line in the sand
Well I'll have you know that I LIKE drawing lines in the sand! Provided I don't rake up a condom like last time.

[cjs55]

Early Infanticide is morally no different than abortion. You'd definitely need to draw a 'random' line in the sand, for sure. I'd say 2 years old. Even then, there isn't much difference. The child has gone through the formative stages and is starting to act 'human', but doesn't display much of an autonomous will beyond that of any other animal.

Anyways, both should be encouraged choices for unfit parents (and unfit children).

[Sackanaka]

Where are the few Christians? I thought this issue was significantly influenced by such religious values.

I heard (did no actual research of my own) that according to doctrine, a soul is placed into the fetus after a certain time... 60 days was it? Maybe longer? Prior to which I think it's okay to abort the fetus.

I think I'd cry more over the death of my dog than an aborted fetus, but maybe that's just the testosterone talking. o_o

The cuteness of babies as Madrigal suggested is probably the primary reason most people feel obligated to prevent infanticide. I agree, damn things are usually infectiously adorable. I guess that means they should be killed in the dark?

[Biff_Loman]

Meh, everything's a line in the sand. 18 to vote, make porn and die in the army - c'mon.

[tinribz]

Apologies for bringing this down to a rational level but isn't the 'random' line meant to relate to when the fetus could concievably live without it's mother. Till then it is part of her body. Or do u all really know this and it is obvious and ur playing with my head. As usual.

[the_stumpycat]

Apologies for bringing this down to a rational level but isn't the 'random' line meant to relate to when the fetus could concievably live without it's mother. Till then it is part of her body. Or do u all really know this and it is obvious and ur playing with my head. As usual.

I don't see the relevance of when it could technically live without its mother. Without its mother it still couldn't eat, couldn't fend for itself, find shelter, escape wild hunters etc.

Maybe that is the easy line in the sand - don't allow to kill after they have come from the womb, but do allow them to be abandoned and left in a field - if they are old and wise enough they live, if not they die and get eaten by the older ones.

[mgb]

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/a357.gif

[booyalab]

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/a357.gif
that's awesome.

[mgb]

It's good, but I really like these ones as well:

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/a201.gif

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/a515.gif

[distraction tactics]

I disagree with abortion (ATTN: PC retards - don't bother), but I don't think it's ethically unsound for the first little while when the fetus is no more than a little blobby alien. When, as mentioned above, the fetus could conceivably live without the mother in, say, an incubator, I believe one's justified in raising questions of morality.

Thankfully, it's a choice I'll never have to make - it's up to others to figure out where their morals take precedent over their personal comfort.

[nottaprettygal]

A serious response:

Supposedly everyone has a strong opinion on abortion. I don't. There's something about it that just doesn't sit right with me. After so many months that thing in there looks like a person, which is why late-term abortions bother me. First trimester? Meh. Go for it, I guess.

It's just one of those topics that I do not feel comfortable expressing a firm opinion on. At one time, I experienced a scare myself, which made me rethink my position. Jesus. There was no way that I could handle a baby. I carry them like a football. So I'm torn between my respect for choice and my respect for life...or at least potential life.

[Wiki]

I think afton was looking for a legal answer not for opinions on abortions. I guess some people just cant help themselves. Notta was the only one to post anything close to a direct answer.

It is a state issue in the U.S., some I believe are no more than 8 weeks and most are first trimester or no later than 12 weeks from conception.

You can call state or county run pregnancy centers or free health clinics in your state and ask a nurse there for an answer while remaining anonymous.

[distraction tactics]

I think afton was looking for a legal answer not for opinions on abortions.

Not saying you're wrong, but that's not how I took it.

[Rajah]

I think afton was looking for a legal answer not for opinions on abortions. I guess some people just cant help themselves.I'm with distraction tactics. Personally, I don't think afton was looking for anything but to stir the pot.

Clue 1? This question: I was wondering, until what age of pregnancy is it ok to abort a baby? is fine on its own. My answer would be one of two things: I believe it's first trimester except under certain circumstances, or go to google.

Afton's first question, when followed by: 7 months, 8 months, 9 months? Or is it simply up to the mother?, is a big joke. Someone seriously asking would never start with the third trimester, and nobody could seriously think "it's up to the mother" is a right answer given the tremendous amount of discourse on the issue.

Clue 2? It's afton. I open his posts expecting them to be ridiculous. On those rare and shining occasions they have depth, I feel like it's Christmas.

[meshou]

The Limits of Abortion, or Meshou's Ticket to Hell

You cannot do it on a boat
You cannot do it with a stoat
You cannot do it with a hair
Nor with a helpful panda bear

You might try with a bright young nurse
who, with the contents of her purse
might come along and save the day
but what in there'd do the job
is not something I'd like to think of

[C.J.Woolf]

Ticket to Hell? I don't think so. There is no thread that can't be improved by Dr. Seuss.

[illusivemind]

The fact that people have strong objections to aborting a clump of carbons when it starts to 'look human' show the arrationality of that response. It is speciest and a ridiculous practical measure.

Attempts to define the start of life that coincide with this stage have been futile. The definition of the start of a human life is arbitrary, or 'a line in the sand.' Some want to place it at conception others not until the child is four years old.

My personal opinion is that the best arbitrary place to put the line is birth. Any earlier and you are creating a definition that places the authority of the state inside a women's womb between a mother and her unborn child. Any later and you are neglecting what can reasonably be desribed as an individual, a seperate agent.

The idea of late term abortions is horrifying, but the thought of what such an experience is like for a mother is worse and the idea that women would enter into such a decision lightly, for reaons of preference rather than 'life or death' is ridiculous.

As regards to the law, I think the effect of Roe vs Wade in the USA is that any abortions after the end of the first trimester must be for life threatening or extreme psychological reasons.

You might be interested in this thread:

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=8080 (Protecting the Unborn)

[meshou]

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a379/a379.gif
I heart this shirt.

[afton]

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a379/a379.gif
I heart this shirt.
You can get the stem cells from killed babies at the dumpster bin
of these clinics :)
http://www.gynpages.com/ACOL/listing.html

[meshou]

You can get the stem cells from killed babies at the dumpster bin of these clinics :) http://www.gynpages.com/ACOL/listing.htmlNo, silly. They burn medical waste.

[afton]

No, silly. They burn medical waste.
Some don't.
http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/monica/index.htm

[meshou]

Some don't.
http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/monica/index.htmThank you for sharing your emotionally driven propeganda with us.

Here's a compromise: If you agree to the forceful castration of any young man who might possibly be considered a contributing factor to a woman considering abortion, I will think that forcing a woman to carry a child to term against her will is a good idea.

If you agree to criminalize apendectomies for men under the poverty line, I will agree that the impoverished women who can't afford to feed a child who die in back alley, rusty coathanger abortions are an ok result of the prohibition.

There are many famous pictures of poor women who bled to death because of unsafe medical conditions resulting from abortion's outlawing. And it was entirely the poor ones, as the rich could bribe a real doctor. I won't stoop to posting them, you may find them for yourself.

[afton]

Thank you for sharing your emotionally driven propeganda with us.

Hehe, see I'm right :) Some abortion clinics don't burn their aborted
babies, they just dump the cute babies in the dumpster bin.
Aborting babies is an emotional event for the mother.

[meshou]

Hehe, see I'm right :) Some abortion clinics don't burn their aborted
babies, they just dump the cute babies in the dumpster bin. Last I checked, a blood covered lump of hacked up flesh was not cute.

Aborting babies is an emotional event for the mother.Then shame on you for exploiting it for your own political ends.

[afton]

Last I checked, a blood covered lump of hacked up flesh was not cute.

The baby was cute when it was still in the womb, after it got aborted
it's not cute anymore.

[Spartan26]

Where are the few Christians? I thought this issue was significantly influenced by such religious values.

I heard (did no actual research of my own) that according to doctrine, a soul is placed into the fetus after a certain time... 60 days was it? Maybe longer? Prior to which I think it's okay to abort the fetus.
You really want an answer or just looking for a fight?

There's no such number in the Bible or anything to directly support when a soul is added to the body. PS 139:13 I believe is the verse most often brought up in regards to abortion.


13.) For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother's womb.
14.) I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
While there's a lot to be gleened from the chapter, the author, probably David, (as in David & Goliath), is initially asking for God to examine his heart so that he can be made aware of his shortcomings as well as pledge his total devotion to God. It's also a prayer of praise, thanking God for sustaining him through his trials and triumphs. I'm going off fuzzy memory here but I believe David wrote this at a point of deliverance, after a period of heavy family strife and his own son trying to kill him.

I wouldn't take the verse farther than just showing that God loves people as individuals and that we can trust Him because He knows us. Otherwise, even w/out the issue of abortion, you run a slippery slope to Calvinism, which basically disregards the notion of freewill, among other things.

The Bible doesn't give a firm indication (perhaps scientific or hard answer may be better terms) for when the soul enters or exits the body. This leads to the next battleground, euthanasia. Is somebody dead when they are brain dead or heart dead?

[afton]

Is somebody dead when they are brain dead or heart dead?
Brain dead

[illusivemind]

Brain dead

Then how can we consistently regard something as 'life' that is absent the brain funtioning we would measure to pronounce someone clinically dead?

[Sackanaka]

You really want an answer or just looking for a fight?
I just like poking into fires every now and then.



The Bible doesn't give a firm indication (perhaps scientific or hard answer may be better terms) for when the soul enters or exits the body. This leads to the next battleground, euthanasia. Is somebody dead when they are brain dead or heart dead?

Hm, you're right about not giving any firm indication. Lo, they did not have to write what was already common belief.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist.htm

In ancient times, the "delayed ensoulment" belief of Aristotle (384-322 BCE) was widely accepted in Pagan Greece and Rome. He taught that a fetus originally has a vegetable soul. This evolves into an animal soul later in gestation. Finally the fetus is "animated" with a human soul. This latter event, called "ensoulment," was believed to occur at 40 days after conception for male fetuses, and 90 days after conception for female fetuses. 1

I admit I am no expert and I doubt many here are qualified biblical scholars. According to that site however (and it was just one of the firsts I could find), it seems that the Jewish were the ones who generally opposed abortions, though that may be relevant to their obsession with cleanliness. It fits well with the continued Christian focus on saving and justice.

I would admit also that the "delayed ensoulment" belief was one originated in "Pagan Greece and Rome" and thus not necessarily true according to Christianity. However, the question then is that since it was a commonly held belief, why did the bible not comment on it if it had any disagreement with it? As you said, there is nothing in the Bible on the topic. There are loads and loads on loving and sinning and whatever else the authors felt necessary to be declared, but it would seem likely to me that if there were differences between their beliefs on "ensoulment" they would at the least give some attention to it, perhaps with a statement like "Those who say souls are made present after conception and not during are wrong." All they claim is that abortion itself is wrong, ignoring ensoulment altogether in favor of this god-given virtue.

[booyalab]

Then how can we consistently regard something as 'life' that is absent the brain funtioning we would measure to pronounce someone clinically dead?
it's generally assumed that the clinically dead are not getting progressively less dead.

[illusivemind]

it's generally assumed that the clinically dead are not getting progressively less dead.

But then you are talking about potentiality. It's not that the thing is alive, but on it's way to being alive, is that how you see it?