The S and N relationship

[Electric]

This thread is not to be condescending towards the S, but to think of the generalize place of Ss and Ns in the world. I have been reading too many post and have found out some things.

I think that Ns are more prone to be "Growers" of the Ss and Ss are more prone to be the "Maintainers" of Ns. Neither should take each other's relationship seriously because both S and N have different needs and would not truly connect on the same level.

Sensing
-Superficial, which probaly means that they are best to do tedious work that has no real personal value but for food, money, and social status so they don't have to deeply care about anythign else.

[Ex]An ISFJ friend said this to me "Why do you always have to think? Why not try to not think and have nothing to worry about except for doing that job of yours." -the S gives him the ability of superficiality-

iNtuition
-Deep, which probaly means that they are better to do "important" work because they deeply analyze the aspects of their work and is naturally able to give Ss life instructions so they do not have to care and just do whatever to get it done.

[Ex]An INFP friend said this to me after sharing goals with each other "I chose to do this job (Minister) because I believe that everyone is connected and it is my role is to help people realize that connection."
-the N gives him the ability of dept-

Alright, time to tell you guys my sources. You might expect my views to be skewed becauses I am an N and chose the Ns as leaders, but at least there will be truth in my interpretations afterall because I have had around 12 good S friends and have practice their social ritual with them for nearly 2 years and all that I felt was a good warmth love but I was never able to connect with these peoples and their simplicity. While in the period of doing these social rituals, I usually talk on AIM or sometimes on the phone to my N friends for hours (1-6) and I felt that these N people were very influential people.

Now I don't understand how some INTP people here have best friends that are S. I thought this was odd because most divorces on this boards were because of Ss that cheat on the INTPs. So if most of the INTPs who married Ss got cheated, how can a person be best friends with an S and not an N? Oh well that's just a prejudice, neglect that.

So I believe that Ss take orders from the Ns that lead the Ss.
I cannot explain everything I know by just typing so question away.

[Edit] I changes the word leaders into growers and the word servants into maintainers. I hope that will make my interpretation more inclined as jobs between the S and N and not a hieararchy system between the two.

[coffeezombie]

Maybe you should write a fiction book where that is the premise, because that's obviously not how it works in real life.

[Electric]

May you point out these misconception for me? I mean the least you can do is point out my errors because you just use that one sentence to show that you don't believe my long interpretation and why? :/

[Ivy]

I don't think that's the case at all. My impression (and this is a gross generalization) is that mostly SJs are in positions of authority, because they (some of them, not I) can just shear away all the extraneous stuff and get to the bare bones of what needs doing. Then they can delegate the work that requires inspiration to NTs and NFs.

[Electric]

I don't think that's the case at all. My impression (and this is a gross generalization) is that mostly SJs are in positions of authority, because they (some of them, not I) can just shear away all the extraneous stuff and get to the bare bones of what needs doing. Then they can delegate the work that requires inspiration to NTs and NFs.

you are right SJs do have authority. But this thread wasn't suppose to be about that. I should have made it more clear that Ss do not think as in dept as Ns. That's why I called the Ss "servants" and the Ns "leaders" because I thought it was a funny name to call the Ss and Ns because one gets tired of thinking in a complex manners that lead them to rely on people, while one can think in complex manner and rule themselves.

[Ivy]

you are right SJs do have authority. But this thread wasn't suppose to be about that. I should have made it more clear that Ss do not think as in dept as Ns. That's why I called the Ss "servants" and the Ns "leaders" because I thought it was a funny name to call the Ss and Ns because one gets tired of thinking in a complex manners that lead them to rely on people, while one can think in complex manner and rule themselves.

I guess I bristle at your description also because it implies that Sensors don't have deeply-held beliefs and convictions that require deep thought. I don't think that's the case, always or even usually. Mother Theresa was an ISFJ, for example. It's true that she didn't waste a lot of time on the loftier issues and instead got down to the business of feeding the hungry, but she did that because of a deeply-held conviction that grounded her.

[Darkness]

I think you're biting on this personality typing bullshit too hard. Don't get me wrong but being a leader has very little to do with the slight differences between N's and S's (IMHO.)

One cannot measure an individuals honesty, heart and pure raw determination in life. This is what it takes to separate from the pack and break ahead...

[Rhu]

May you point out these misconception for me? I mean the least you can do is point out my errors because you just use that one sentence to show that you don't believe my long interpretation and why? :/
He's probably one of them S's who should be serving you. Don't bother with the likes of him.

Seriously, though. People treating MBTI like it gives us 16 discrete types of cookie-cutter people types is retarded... I'll liken it (since N types are good with analogies!!!!) with saying that you can tell everything about an objects position because you have its rough coordinates on a 2d grid.

A type isn't an absolute. Even the most patterned and instinctive S will have moments of intuition. And probably regularly, at that. There are people who are border cases between S and N, too. How little "N" preference/ability does someone have to have before they are designated part of your serving class?

Intuitive types don't have some sort of monopoly on creativity. What is possible for one type is possible for any type. These behaviors may not come naturally, but someone well trained to do something that isn't natural to them can sometimes come up with insights on that type behavior that others wouldn't have. This might have something to do with why fiction is popular among the species.

There is a great deal you are missing if you look at a type alone, or use it as an excuse for some sort of elitism. You aren't automatically logical, intelligent, or creative if you are an INTP. You don't have to have a failure to emote if you are an INTP.

E/I, S/N, F/T, J/P aren't a complete listing or descriptors, either. There are things like brain hemispheric preference (somewhat related to J/P, sure), gender, and a wide variety of measures of intelligence that aren't taken into account with this.

Use MBTI as a basis case for understanding. Its overly discretized classifications can help to predict certain things. It is worthless in terms of absolutes, because there are none.

[Electric]

Use MBTI as a basis case for understanding. Its overly discretized classifications can help to predict certain things. It is worthless in terms of absolutes, because there are none.

Alright good, you given me some things to ponder and build on to my idea. I'm not saying this interpretation is an concreted idea because I know there are people who have the 50% N and S. This is just a trend I collected and some thoughts to express to find more variables from readers to consider.

[Electric]

I think you're biting on this personality typing bullshit too hard. Don't get me wrong but being a leader has very little to do with the slight differences between N's and S's (IMHO.)

One cannot measure an individuals honesty, heart and pure raw determination in life. This is what it takes to separate from the pack and break ahead...

That's true. I think that we're on a different page though because when I say leader I mean a person that know the big picture in life therefore having influence in spirit, but not materialistically. You're proably thinking of a person who leads people like a military leader, but I interpreted it another way. :/

[Electric]

I guess I bristle at your description also because it implies that Sensors don't have deeply-held beliefs and convictions that require deep thought. I don't think that's the case, always or even usually. Mother Theresa was an ISFJ, for example. It's true that she didn't waste a lot of time on the loftier issues and instead got down to the business of feeding the hungry, but she did that because of a deeply-held conviction that grounded her.

I think we are talking about different types of thinking depths. Mother Teresa conviction was extremely based on commitment for faith. I'm talking about how wide you can see the big picture of life.

[Ivy]

I think we are talking about different types of thinking depths. Mother Teresa conviction was extremely based on commitment for faith. I'm talking about how wide you can see the big picture of life.

Maybe you're not expressing it clearly, then, because there is a pretty strong implication in your original post that sensors just like to do a simple job to get paid so they don't have to think deep thoughts.

[Vagabond]

I don't see many intuitives leading. This is definitely not an intuitively constructed world. The idea that sensors are superficial by default and intuitives are deep by default is at least ridiculous (and I am being polite here). I can point out deep sensors and stupid intuitives on this very board, the opposite too of course. Or I could, if I was interested in naming names.

[Darkness]

That's true. I think that we're on a different page though because when I say leader I mean a person that know the big picture in life therefore having influence in spirit, but not materialistically. You're proably thinking of a person who leads people like a military leader, but I interpreted it another way. :/


I think you misinterpreted what I meant. A persons heart, honesty, and determination applies to all areas and levels. You can be a leader in any field of your liking. It depends on the individual and their motivation. I'm an INTP and I despise leadership roles and mostly stay away from it. Unless, its an absolute necessaity for me to make a move. I'm very laid back and mellow. If an S wants to lead I have no problems with them. Also, I have a few SJ friends who are some of the least materialistic and hardest working people I have ever known. You can trash your theory because its horrendously stupid and is based on some of the most flawed logic I have ever seen...

BTW, No Offense to you personally and I'm sure you're most likely a nice person in your daily life...

[Electric]

ok it may be that sensors can be open minded and intuitives can be closed minded, so does this mean that there are actually some Ns that can connect with Ss? Like they can talk about the same things and interests?

[Vagabond]

ok it may be that sensors can be open minded and intuitives can be closed minded, so does this mean that there are actually some Ns that can connect with Ss? Like they can talk about the same things and interests?
Does that have anything to do with your original theory/post though?

Yes, seeing many successful couples made of a sensor and an intuitive, I think they can. Usually I don't personally relate to the sensors I have met in real life, but apparently some do.

[Electric]

I think you misinterpreted what I meant. A persons heart, honesty, and determination applies to all areas and levels. You can be a leader in any field of your liking. It depends on the individual and their motivation. I'm an INTP and I despise leadership roles and mostly stay away from it. Unless, its an absolute necessaity for me to make a move. I'm very laid back and mellow. If an S wants to lead I have no problems with them. Also, I have a few SJ friends who are some of the least materialistic and hardest working people I have ever known. You can trash your theory because its horrendously stupid and is based on some of the most flawed logic I have ever seen...

BTW, No Offense to you personally and I'm sure you're most likely a nice person in your daily life...

What? a nice person in your daily life? What? Ok mister, I'm picking up from your clues that you mean offence. Anyways aside from that. I still think you are still more inclined to my military leader example because some military leaders have heart, determination, and honesty. But I was talking about how intuitive people are supposely have a big spiritual world (not ghost and stuff like that or blind faith) that makes them more inclined to communicate to themselves better than the Ss who can not go beyond but are more realistic. Man if I knew what consequence would happen for decorating the word Intuiontion with "leader".

[Electric]

Does that have anything to do with your original theory/post though?

Yes, seeing many successful couples made of a sensor and an intuitive, I think they can. Usually I don't personally relate to the sensors I have met in real life, but apparently some do.

Well it has nothing to do with the original post, but I created this post to learn more about S and N relationships anyways so why not:)

[Ivy]

What? a nice person in your daily life? What? Ok mister, I'm picking up from your clues that you mean offence. Anyways aside from that. I still think you are still more inclined to my military leader example because some military leaders have heart, determination, and honesty. But I was talking about how intuitive people are supposely have a big spiritual world (not ghost and stuff like that or blind faith) that makes them more inclined to communicate to themselves better than the Ss who can not go beyond but are more realistic. Man if I knew what consequence would happen for decorating the word Intuiontion with "leader".

I think you're not seeing the big picture, if you think that everyone who disagrees with you is only getting hung up on the word "leader."

[Vagabond]

But I was talking about how intuitive people are supposely have a big spiritual world (not ghost and stuff like that or blind faith) that makes them more inclined to communicate to themselves better than the Ss who can not go beyond but are more realistic.
I thought INTPs have trouble communicating their feelings and are impatient about communicating their ideas. Maybe I was reading the wrong profile though.

[Electric]

Maybe you're not expressing it clearly, then, because there is a pretty strong implication in your original post that sensors just like to do a simple job to get paid so they don't have to think deep thoughts.
Maybe. Could you describe to me what kind of deep thoughts you were talking about because I think I might have declaimed you too fast.

[Vagabond]

Well it has nothing to do with the original post, but I created this post to learn more about S and N relationships anyways so why not:)
Right, fair enough. Intuitives and Sensors do have different ways of seeing the world. That can create confusion and mutual lack of understanding and lack of communication. We communicate in different ways, but who is to say one way is better than the other... the advantages of the former are the handicaps of the latter and the opposite. Being different doesn't mean being superior or inferior.

[Electric]

I thought INTPs have trouble communicating their feelings and are impatient about communicating their ideas. Maybe I was reading the wrong profile though.

No you're right there. I'm not that good with expressing my idea, I guest. It's just that I thought that Ss served as maintence and Ns served as growth in this species.

[Darkness]

What? a nice person in your daily life? What? Ok mister, I'm picking up from your clues that you mean offence. Anyways aside from that. I still think you are still more inclined to my military leader example because some military leaders have heart, determination, and honesty. But I was talking about how intuitive people are supposely have a big spiritual world (not ghost and stuff like that or blind faith) that makes them more inclined to communicate to themselves better than the Ss who can not go beyond but are more realistic. Man if I knew what consequence would happen for decorating the word Intuiontion with "leader".


Gotta Go Now! Anyways, I was replying to your original post and my "P" side is kicking in and I don't feel like getting in pissing contest with you. Its a waste of everyones time here in my opinion.

BTW, Good Luck: I hope you find whatever answer you're looking for because you cannot measure something intangible in a person...;)

[Electric]

I think you're not seeing the big picture, if you think that everyone who disagrees with you is only getting hung up on the word "leader."

Noway. I just thought that it was a problem though.

[Electric]

Gotta Go Now! Anyways, I was replying to your original post and my "P" side is kicking in and I don't feel like getting in pissing contest with you. Its a waste of everyones time here in my opinion.

BTW, Good Luck: I hope you find whatever answer you're looking for because you cannot measure something intangible in a person...;)

But I'm not even pissed :/

[Electric]

Right, fair enough. Intuitives and Sensors do have different ways of seeing the world. That can create confusion and mutual lack of understanding and lack of communication. We communicate in different ways, but who is to say one way is better than the other... the advantages of the former are the handicaps of the latter and the opposite. Being different doesn't mean being superior or inferior.

I hope you didn't think that I thought I was somakindauva king who thought I was better than the rest because I was INTP and other great scientists were INTPs. But I take your information to consideration.

[Darkness]

But I'm not even pissed :/


HAHA, you still don't get it? Do you. HINT, HINT: intangibles. Thats all I can offer to this discussion and now I'm done... bye :whistle:

[Electric]

HAHA, you still don't get it? Do you. HINT, HINT: intangibles. Thats all I can offer to this discussion and now I'm done... bye :whistle:

Fine have a good night with many good dreams

[Darkness]

Fine have a good night with many good dreams


Same to you...:)

[Snowflake]

This entire thread is full of flawed logic and stereotypes on the parts of BOTH parties (those supporting and against Electric).

What a complete waste of time.


but who is to say one way is better than the other

Oh Come on. This very statement is inherently a JUDGEMENT. Who are you to call me or anyone on a judgement? Electric has the perogative to believe that Ns are better than Ss, or vice versa without someone barging in and screaming "Equality, equality for all!"

The belief that all types are equal is merely your own opinion. Get over your arrogance and listen to what Electric has to say.

[Neppy]

Hmm.

I agree with EnglishIvy. It's very close-minded to assume all SJs are superficial and without deep thoughts/convictions. SJs are just as important to our society as any NT. Every type should be appreciated for their own strengths.

But I'm not going to go on an equality rampage. Nobody is equal. ;)

:laser:

[ptGatsby]

I think that Ns are more prone to be leaders over S and S are more prone to be the followers of Ns. Neither should take each other's relationship seriously because both S and N have different needs and would not truly connect on the same level.



Hrmm, let me check;


1) SJ's are generally wealthier;
2) They tend to be in positions of authority (~48% of executives are SJ types)
3) They tend to be happier, as you say;

NP are;

1) "Deeper","Smarter"

Forgive me if I feel that NP's are getting the short end of the stick here.

(Note: All of these were statistically true, as far as I've read. No matter your feelings on MBTI, this divide is extremely strong.)

And both are required in society. Not equal, but necessary.

[melancholeric]

2) They tend to be in positions of authority (~48% of executives are SJ types)
That doesn't really mean anything because ~45 % of the population are SJ.

http://www.infj.org/public/typestats.html

I'd check Keirsey for stats but the site is ridiculously slow and I'm lazy.

[mgb]

I'd first like to thank Electric for starting this thread in the right forum. Seems like a rare quality these days.

As far as the ideas go, I think it's kind of silly. For starters, the idea of nobility, while I understand the caste-ish implcations, doesn't really seem accurate. I mean, at some level, even the nobility/executives are servants, if not to someone higher than them, then to large masses of people below them. So at some level the dichotomy being created here is flawed. It implies some level of social responsibility as being a bi-product of MBTI or Jungian theory.

As for the caste system, I do realize it exists in every society, and really, it always will. I think time and time again for everything you can really think of, you are going to see that the exception proves the rule, and that is what is going to render this theory somewhat useless. An INTP doing wiring on a house or an ISFJ looking at the big picture and coming from an aristocratic family have to be killers.

Another thing not addressed is the role society plays on establishing the rigid heirarchies we see. An INFP born to an ultra poor family will probably never find themselves in a position of nobility. I'm sure there are some counter examples, but not that many. Point being that I think this is an over simplified look at a very complicated socio-economic system.

[MSpitterman]

S types have a clear disadvantage in the new "knowledge" society. They are very useful at repairing my car or serving my food but not useful at the top of any society.

Great news for INTP: xNTx types represent less than 15 percent of the population but share more than 80% of industrialized countries wealth.

[MSpitterman]

I love Pareto's rule of 80-20...

[Darkness]

S types have a clear disadvantage in the new "knowledge" society. They are very useful at repairing my car or serving my food but not useful at the top of any society.

Great news for INTP: xNTx types represent less than 15 percent of the population but share more than 80% of industrialized countries wealth.


Your results are skewed because not everyone is on an equal playing field among countries and even among people. Also, the flow of information is not efficient for individuals. My previous statement holds true across all time zones and for all people. This also brings up the question of "free will" and its cause and effects.

Nice try but I call your assumptions Bullshit!

[MSpitterman]

Darkness, you look like and think like my preferred stripper club waitress. Would you bring me another of those nachos???

[Electric]

Hmmm from these following post I can see we have a problem with equality from my post.

I think all types are pretty equal. Here's why.
Ns love what they do meaning that they are the "growers" of this species and Ss love what they do meaning that they are the "maintainers" of this species. Although there will be exception like Ss that love philosophy, chess, or anythign that seem Nish, I don't see it greatly impacting the trend that happens. This sort of reminds me of evolution...

[Darkness]

Darkness, you look like and think like my preferred stripper club waitress. Would you bring me another of those nachos???

You're are an Idiot because if you bothered to read my profile you would see that. I'm a MALE. Unless you're Gay and have a crush on me you should stay the FUCK away from me. I'm flattered that you would consider me but I don't play that way and I'm 100% Redblooded MALE. The avatar is of someone I know and thats why its there and b/c I like to look at it.


<You have just been made out to look like an ASSCLOWN monkey! Now, go eat a banana>

[MSpitterman]

Why would I bother?

[Darkness]

Why would I bother?


HAHA, thats why you should educate yourself before you make a fool out of yourself in public. Don't ever go by a general assumption about anything and anyone in life.


<I would be concerned if you did bother. I hope everything's clear now and Thank you for leaving me alone>

[Vagabond]

This entire thread is full of flawed logic and stereotypes on the parts of BOTH parties (those supporting and against Electric).

What a complete waste of time.



Oh Come on. This very statement is inherently a JUDGEMENT. Who are you to call me or anyone on a judgement? Electric has the perogative to believe that Ns are better than Ss, or vice versa without someone barging in and screaming "Equality, equality for all!"

The belief that all types are equal is merely your own opinion. Get over your arrogance and listen to what Electric has to say.
So I listen and I disagree. You are calling me out on invalidating Electric's opinion by invalidating mine..? That's a new one.

[MSpitterman]

You make a fool of yourself just by showing how blind your are to the disproportion of your reactions to my joke. You are either a terribly susceptible loser or a perfect puppet to any poster.

[Darkness]

You make a fool of yourself just by showing how blind your are to the disproportion of your reactions to my joke. You are either a terribly susceptible loser or a perfect puppet to any poster.


No you're my puppet and I'm your master. You don't anger me at all and thus you have no control over me. You're worthless to me.


<laughs for the insider who gets my hint>:D

[distraction tactics]

Chill broseph. The guy is most likely a fake poster and/or troll.

[Darkness]

Chill broseph. The guy is most likely a fake poster and/or troll.

Yeah its all cool now. I don't bother with trolls but certain pictures that I just viewed caused me to get out of character for a moment. For more info refer to the methods of killing people thread in the dumps. I'm back to normal now.

[JBHunt]

I actually am getting a kick out of this thread b/c I am an INTP engaged to an ISTJ. The most humbling part of being with her is her non-materialistic, hardworking nature. On top of that, as far as I know, she is open and honest. But I sometimes think she has no conviction and can easily cheat with somebody when I am not around. She comes across as a religious fanatic who is very involved with her church...but once again no conviction...lol.

The drama continues...

[Snowflake]

So I listen and I disagree. You are calling me out on invalidating Electric's opinion by invalidating mine..? That's a new one.

I wasn't invalidating Electric's opinion *cough* :laser:

[Vagabond]

I wasn't invalidating Electric's opinion *cough* :laser:
No. You were invalidating mine. Read closer.

[Mountain_Recluse]

I thought that Ss served as maintenance and Ns served as growth in this species.
EXCELLENT!

That is what I've witnessed in business, schools, government, etc.

I gotta remember this for use elsewhere and elsewhen!

That executives in conservative corporations are S's
and that innovators in growing enterprises are N's
add's more evidence that the above quote is correct.

The N's are the architects of our growth in knowledge, space, and creation.
The S's bring into reality and maintain the ideas the architects create.

[wildcat]

Well. I sympathise with Ivy. My grandmother was like Ivy- the only sensible person in a crazy INTP family. She was the only one in our large family who got anything done.

She was an ISFJ and died early. It was a hard task to be among selfish, day-dreaming, egocentric, largely worthless people.

[Electric]

Sympathize about what? What are you talking about?

[wildcat]

I'd first like to thank Electric for starting this thread in the right forum. Seems like a rare quality these days.

As far as the ideas go, I think it's kind of silly. For starters, the idea of nobility, while I understand the caste-ish implcations, doesn't really seem accurate. I mean, at some level, even the nobility/executives are servants, if not to someone higher than them, then to large masses of people below them. So at some level the dichotomy being created here is flawed. It implies some level of social responsibility as being a bi-product of MBTI or Jungian theory.

As for the caste system, I do realize it exists in every society, and really, it always will. I think time and time again for everything you can really think of, you are going to see that the exception proves the rule, and that is what is going to render this theory somewhat useless. An INTP doing wiring on a house or an ISFJ looking at the big picture and coming from an aristocratic family have to be killers.

Another thing not addressed is the role society plays on establishing the rigid heirarchies we see. An INFP born to an ultra poor family will probably never find themselves in a position of nobility. I'm sure there are some counter examples, but not that many. Point being that I think this is an over simplified look at a very complicated socio-economic system.
It does not matter in which forum we place out thoughts.. The thing that matters is what we say.
Stop playing the policeman.

[wildcat]

Sympathize about what? What are you talking about?
Ivy is the most precious jewel we have here in the INTP board.
She knows what is what. I have more respect for her than I have for this forum.
I have read her posts and they make sense to me.
She is temperate and kind and has more wisdom than the other lot of you.

[Electric]

Cool I like people who are precious. But you aren't being helpful to this thread. Now I think you're just posting just to try to attack this thread anyways. You're not presenting any idea to why this interpretation might be wrong but you just say since this person is a shiny lollipop girl, she is too comfortable to follow. Now she may have 100000000000000X more wisdom than me, but that doesn't mean she knows everything so prejudice is ignorance. I don't think you get the message anyways.

[Electric]

I regret making this thread. Where does all this hiearchy crap and reference to INTPs come from anyways? It not about that. I hope a moderator could lock up this bad apple thread.

[Ivy]

Ivy is the most precious jewel we have here in the INTP board.
She knows what is what. I have more respect for her than I have for this forum.
I have read her posts and they make sense to me.
She is temperate and kind and has more wisdom than the other lot of you.

Wow, thank you wildcat! :)

[Snowflake]

I regret making this thread. Where does all this hiearchy crap and reference to INTPs come from anyways? It not about that. I hope a moderator could lock up this bad apple thread.

Hey, this is what happens when you apply labels to people.

Some of them are made to be better, and others weaker.

I find it ironic that an INTP is attempting to insult other INTPs though. For someone who doesn't get anything done, he sure does do a lot of insulting (yeah, that's a great way to achieve something, I suppose). :banned:

[Electric]

Hey, this is what happens when you apply labels to people.

Some of them are made to be better, and others weaker.

I find it ironic that an INTP is attempting to insult other INTPs though. For someone who doesn't get anything done, he sure does do a lot of insulting (yeah, that's a great way to achieve something, I suppose). :banned:

Labels....you still don't get it. Yet you just replied to attack me.... I wish you would take this debate more seriously and actually give proof to everything you ever said on this board. Insulting? I only use vulgar statement with vulgar statements. That's one of the options to use to debate. .....................you look like the one that insulting to me...... Especially with your prejudice remark. Have better faith in people my friend.

[nonsequitur]

:rofl: A comedy of misunderstandings.

[Electric]

This thread is a interpretation anyways. Why are more Ns in the position to grow society and Ss in the position to maintain society? It's an interesting trend but not a label. I want to see why people have a problem with that view and not attack it subjectively. The N way of thinking has functions like extroverted intuition or introvert intuition that makes people have the inclined to make this society grow. The S way of thinking has functions like extroverted sensing or introverted sensing that makes people more inclined to maintain this society. Are there any ISTJs who want to be scientist? Are there and ENTPs who does not want to invent?


EXCELLENT!

That is what I've witnessed in business, schools, government, etc.

I gotta remember this for use elsewhere and elsewhen!

That executives in conservative corporations are S's
and that innovators in growing enterprises are N's
add's more evidence that the above quote is correct.

The N's are the architects of our growth in knowledge, space, and creation.
The S's bring into reality and maintain the ideas the architects create.

Does that not make my interpretation any more believable?

[Electric]

:rofl: A comedy of misunderstandings.

you couldn't find a sad or crying emoticon could you?

[Snowflake]

:rofl: A comedy of misunderstandings.

Nothing but it (I like to call it "Life"). :rofl:

[Promethean]

I'm going to disagree but at the same time support you a bit Electric. While I don't think S's are leaders, I don't think they are servants either. They can be awsome supervisors but I consider supervision to be completely different from leading. I agree with you that N's are the true leaders because leading requires (in my interpretation) the ability to get others to follow an idea of their own free will. They don't force, use an organization or try to get poeple to follow them personaly but are visionaries if you will. At the same time while I think N's are definately more suited to this, S are definately more suited to supervision which has a tendancy to be the motivation that really gets things done.

I'm generalizing big time of course but that's my two bits.

[Hustler]

The OP is right. Sensors are foolish and incapable of making a good decision. They just don't get it. The only decisions they have to make are which intuitively-derived lines of thought they are going to buy into. Sometimes, they don't even get to make that decision, because some other sensor has already made that choice and they just follow along. But, all that said, sensors are cute when they try to reason through things and think about stuff.

[wildcat]

I am afraid we have a little misunderstanding here. I was not insulting you or this thread. I was not discussing the thread at all or taking sides. I posted here only because she happened to be here. If she had been elsewhere I would have posted elsewhere. It was only a kind of Christmas greeting. A personal matter, so to speak.

[Electric]

O ok I just thought you were up to something else.

[mattj]

No you're right there. I'm not that good with expressing my idea, I guest. It's just that I thought that Ss served as maintence and Ns served as growth in this species.


Yeah for all the stereotype/cookie-cutter problems of MBTI this is one the first things that came to mind when I figured out that MBTI wasn't just a horoscope.

I think it's meaningful/relevant to draw a distinction between SJs and SPs, though, so the categories are SJ, SP, and N_. I'm going to pretty much ignore SPs for the rest of this post because I haven't had enough SP friends to generalize too well. I tend to think of them as kind of a middle ground between SJs and Ns, which I'm sure is doing them a big disservice.

As a generalization, SJs value tradition for its own sake and aren't interested in changing it unless they hear a compelling reason. But they're not actively seeking out reasons to change. If they leave things the same they know what they'll get, but change can be very scary to them. Ns, on the other hand, tend to know exactly what they'll get, more or less, if they change things, and it's stability that bugs them. Growing up I would sometimes go to a bad leader with my great idea and I was always surprised at their lack of interest. I didn't even understand why somebody would be so uninterested in seeing whether the idea actually had any merit or not.

Whenever there's a problem in society there always seem to be two kinds of people:

(1)the ones who have the desire to change things but not the power, and
(2)the ones who have the power to change things but not the desire.

The third category, people who have neither power nor desire, makes up the vast majority of the population for any given issue, but they're irrelevant except to the extent that people from groups (1) and (2) are always trying to draw them to their respective side. Ultimately, if (1) or (2) is going to win it's going to be because they've swayed people in group #3, not because the people in group #1 or group #2 have changed their minds.

Growing up I always saw this playing out. People who think you shouldn't wear fur coats and people who make fur coats. Auto company execs and environmentalists. People who care that people in foreign countries are working in sweatshops to make our clothes, and people who (indirectly) employ that labor. And I always wondered, why are there no people in the fourth category? Because obviously, if anybody was in that category, they would have solved the problem by now.

Yeah, sure, protests are all very well and good, but you have to do a lot of things right for them to be effective, in terms of achieving tangible results. I've seen a lot of protesters put in a lot of effort and still fail. I always wondered why, if these people really cared, why they didn't just join the company so they could change its culture? Aren't there any environmentalists who have enough of a mechanical inclination to join a car company, I thought?

But that's what it is. Protesters tend to be Ns, and management tends to be SJs. At these kinds of institutions the SJs tend to put in place the kind of corporate culture that would make any N uncomfortable or miserable. When the companies hire, they know (without looking at Myers-Briggs) whether this is a person who's going to "fit in" well there. And N's tend to select themselves out of those jobs and go towards other things where they can use their strengths better.

I think it's like an atom. You need both stability and motion for any system to be effective. Too much stability and the system stagnates, becomes brittle to change, and then dies. To much motion and there is not enough underlying structure so everything just flies off into space instead of being a coherent unit. SJs are the nucleus, rigid and stable, and N's are the electrons, always whizzing around. The only reasons why molecules exist is because the electrons exert forces on the various nuclei to keep them in place. Mess with the electrons too much and the molecule will no longer be stable and change into some other configuration.

Nuclei are the lego blocks and electrons are the glue. I don't really like that analogy because lego blocks will stick together by themselves without any help, but someone else can think of a better analogy. :)

But it is pretty cool to see things from that point of view. Traditional leaders think they're so big and important because they have minions and nuclear weapons and stuff. You know the scene in "The Matrix" where Neo first realizes that he is The One? He looks around and is suddenly able to see the underlying truth, all those funny greek letter things. He flexes his muscles and the universe retracts around him. I've had that feeling a couple of times in the past year. That, to me, is what it means to be good at what you do as an INTP. Anything you want to change you can change, and you don't need minions to do it for you. It's a cool feeling. I highly recommend that other people do the same thing. :) Just remember to use your powers for good and not evil..

Matt