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Apostasius
20 Dec 2005, 06:03 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10545387/

A Summary by Judge Jones:



The proper application of both the endorsement and Lemon tests to the facts of this case makes it abundantly clear that the Board’s ID Policy violates the Establishment Clause. In making this determination, we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not, and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents.

Both Defendants and many of the leading proponents of ID make a bedrock assumption which is utterly false. Their presupposition is that evolutionary theory is antithetical to a belief in the existence of a supreme being and to religion in general. Repeatedly in this trial, Plaintiffs’ scientific experts testified that the theory of evolution represents good science, is overwhelmingly accepted by the scientific community, and that it in no way conflicts with, nor does it deny, the existence of a divine creator.

To be sure, Darwin’s theory of evolution is imperfect. However, the fact that a scientific theory cannot yet render an explanation on every point should not be used as a pretext to thrust an untestable alternative hypothesis grounded in religion into the science classroom or to misrepresent well-established scientific propositions.

The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID Policy. It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy.

With that said, we do not question that many of the leading advocates of ID have bona fide and deeply held beliefs which drive their scholarly endeavors. Nor do we controvert that ID should continue to be studied, debated, and discussed. As stated, our conclusion today is that it is unconstitutional to teach ID as an alternative to evolution in a public school science classroom.

Those who disagree with our holding will likely mark it as the product of an activist judge. If so, they will have erred as this is manifestly not an activist Court. Rather, this case came to us as the result of the activism of an ill-informed faction on a school board, aided by a national public interest law firm eager to find a constitutional test case on ID, who in combination drove the Board to adopt an imprudent and ultimately unconstitutional policy. The breathtaking inanity of the Board’s decision is evident when considered against the factual backdrop which has now been fully revealed through this trial. The students, parents, and teachers of the Dover Area School District deserved better than to be dragged into this legal maelstrom, with its resulting utter waste of monetary and personal resources.

To preserve the separation of church and state mandated by the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, and Art. I, § 3 of the Pennsylvania Constitution, we will enter an order permanently enjoining Defendants from maintaining the ID Policy in any school within the Dover Area School District, from requiring teachers to denigrate or disparage the scientific theory of evolution, and from requiring teachers to refer to a religious, alternative theory known as ID. We will also issue a declaratory judgment that Plaintiffs’ rights under the Constitutions of the United States and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania have been violated by Defendants’ actions.

Defendants’ actions in violation of Plaintiffs’ civil rights as guaranteed to them by the Constitution of the United States and 42 U.S.C. § 1983 subject Defendants to liability with respect to injunctive and declaratory relief, but also for nominal damages and the reasonable value of Plaintiffs’ attorneys’ services and costs incurred in vindicating Plaintiffs’ constitutional rights.

NOW, THEREFORE, IT IS ORDERED THAT:
1. A declaratory judgment is hereby issued in favor of Plaintiffs pursuant
to 28 U.S.C. §§ 2201, 2202, and 42 U.S.C. § 1983 such that
Defendants’ ID Policy violates the Establishment Clause of the First
Amendment of the Constitution of the United States and Art. I, § 3 of
the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
2. Pursuant to Fed.R.Civ.P. 65, Defendants are permanently enjoined
from maintaining the ID Policy in any school within the Dover Area
School District.
3. Because Plaintiffs seek nominal damages, Plaintiffs shall file with the
Court and serve on Defendants, their claim for damages and a verified
statement of any fees and/or costs to which they claim entitlement.
Defendants shall have the right to object to any such fees and costs to
the extent provided in the applicable statutes and court rules.

John E. Jones III
United States District Judge

ptGatsby
20 Dec 2005, 06:08 PM
Wow, is it just me or were those some strong words?

I would like to see more judges point out the pressures that brought it to court, then call people morons for letting it happen. Or maybe I just don't read these things often enough...

And the plus side; The system kinda works? Maybe?

joecancer
20 Dec 2005, 06:16 PM
Yeah, those were strong words, especially calling them liars. What was that in reference to?

The best part is, this judge was appointed by Bush, who is pro-ID.

Apostasius
20 Dec 2005, 06:33 PM
Yeah, those were strong words, especially calling them liars. What was that in reference to?


It was scattered throughout the trial but was particularly obvious in the last week or so. I don't remember the details, but it is all captured in the trial transcripts:
http://www2.ncseweb.org/wp/?page_id=11

Apostasius
20 Dec 2005, 06:38 PM
Predictably, the Discovery Institute has issued a press release that vilifies the decision.
http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=3107&program=CSC%20-%20Views%20and%20News

BTW, Judge Jones' 139 page opinion can be found here:
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/051220_kitzmiller_342.pdf

PsiKik
20 Dec 2005, 07:49 PM
Think I'll have a beer to celebrate.

Blue
20 Dec 2005, 08:00 PM
The Dover decision is an attempt by an activist federal judge to stop the spread of a scientific idea and even to prevent criticism of Darwinian evolution through government-imposed censorship rather than open debate, and it won't work," said Dr. John West, Associate Director of the Center for Science and Culture at Discovery Institute, the nation's leading think tank researching the scientific theory known as intelligent design.

Empahsis mine. That they specified 'scientific theory' like that... :)

+Blue

Heather Harrison
20 Dec 2005, 08:04 PM
For once, Bush screwed up and appointed a good judge! Perhaps he should nominate this judge to the Supreme Court.

This is exactly what needed to be said, and I am glad this judge chose to word his decision so strongly. I'm also glad that the fools on the school board who voted to put this policy in place got voted out of office in November's election.

The future of this country is in real trouble if we turn away from science. No competing philosophy can compare with science in its ability to explain and predict events. If we turn our backs on something that has been proven, time and again, to work well, and cling onto old-fashioned superstition, we will sink rapidly into third-world status. I'm glad there are still people in positions of power in this country who will resist this trend.

Religion must never be allowed to intrude in the proper domain of science. Go ahead and discuss creationism in a philosophy or comparative religion class, but do not bring it into the science classroom.

Heather Harrison

Pooja
20 Dec 2005, 08:21 PM
This is awesome. Now if only there were more judges like that...

Conan
20 Dec 2005, 08:21 PM
Hell Yeah

libertarianjim
20 Dec 2005, 09:46 PM
These fundamentalist, literalist nutjobs are the reason I'm not a Republican anymore.

And I consider myself pretty religious.

This also shows why using words improperly degrades their meaning over time. A "theory," in the proper sense, is something emperically verifiable and testable. Saying "I have a theory" (and I'm as guilty of this as the next person) when you mean "I have a possible explanation that hasn't been tested and is quite possibly very, very outlandish" degrades the proper meaning, and opens the door for IDers and creationists to deride evolution to be "just a theory."

Heather Harrison
20 Dec 2005, 11:07 PM
You're right - too many people misinterpret the word "theory". A properly accepted theory is verified via analysis and experiment, and is put through a rigorous peer review process before it is accepted. A hypothesis is an educated guess that may one day become a theory once it is properly tested and reviewed. I question whether "Intelligent Design" even meets the standard of a hypothesis, because I question the "educated" part of it.

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh here but it bothers me when people mount a concerted attack on well-accepted science - denying science is the quickest way back to the Dark Ages.

Heather Harrison

Darkness
21 Dec 2005, 03:07 AM
Think I'll have a beer to celebrate.

Cheers!

mattj
21 Dec 2005, 07:14 AM
I hate to say anything in defense of ID.
I really, really, really hate to say anything in defense of ID.
Because the people who are pushing for ID are such nuts, and their motives are wrong.
But.
Cars don't come from nowhere.
Airplanes don't come from nowhere.

The pilot episode of "The Twilight Zone" is called "Where is Everybody?" You see a guy in a uniform wandering around a town with no people. There is nothing to indicate what happened to all the people. All the cars are neatly parked, all the counters are clean and shiny. Everything is exactly as it should be, except there are no people.

We, the audience, know, well before Rod Serling comes out, that something is very wrong here. We've seen people by themselves in the countryside. We've seen people in crowded cities. And we've seen people in deserted cities, where the physical objects tell the story of why people left. But we've never seen a city with no people like this one before, and we know, without being told, that something very weird is going on here.

Much as I hate to admit it, there is a certain amount of truth to this whole ID nonsense. The problem is that these people aren't looking for truth, they're looking to muddy the water. It don't like it when people muddy the water. The universe is hard enough to understand as it is. Imagine if these people devoted all that money to honest-to-goodness scientific research instead of lawyer's fees and think tanks and other selfish and ultimately pointless things...

Matt

Braggi
21 Dec 2005, 08:15 AM
oh. my. god.

matt, you have utterly proven ID, where do cars come from if not from god?

Garyincinci
21 Dec 2005, 10:11 PM
For once, Bush screwed up and appointed a good judge! Perhaps he should nominate this judge to the Supreme Court.

You assume that Bush's intention was to get judges stacked so that he could get ID through. Personally, I don't think Bush would be stupid enough to do that. I think that more than likely Bush is taking a public stance for ID simply to appease the masses (The majority of America believes in ID) with the true adgenda of it not happening.


Cars don't come from nowhere.
Airplanes don't come from nowhere.

Much as I hate to admit it, there is a certain amount of truth to this whole ID nonsense.

There is no amount of truth to ID. There is no theory behind ID other than to say we have an intellegent designer. This could be one man with unlimited powers, omnipotence, omnipresence, etc.... or it could be an entire race of highly evolved beings who in searching for their own meanings in life created an entire universe in order to watch and hopefully gain some insight. Intellegent Design has only two places in the education system...philosophy and literature...and the only place it has in literature is in Science Fiction.

PlayerOfGames
21 Dec 2005, 10:55 PM
Mattj, I believe you are putting forward in a roundabout way the argument that nothing can exist without a creator, and so there must be an intelligent designer of the universe?

This argument is disproved thusly:

1. If there is an intelligent designer, we assume that this designer is the first, since if he/she/it has a designer, then that designer would be the true intelligent designer we care about.

2. So, this object (the designer) could exist without being created by a creator.

3. Why then can the universe not exist without being created by the creator?

It is a uniquely human conceit to look at something and think "who made this?" We think this way because we make, but this is not neccecarily the shape of the universe.

PlayerOfGames
21 Dec 2005, 10:56 PM
WRT this thread in general...

Fuck yeah.

Blue
22 Dec 2005, 12:30 AM
Cars don't come from nowhere.
Airplanes don't come from nowhere.


mattj, for the first time, I agree with Shai's response.
I blame you for this.

+Blue

ApeTheDog
22 Dec 2005, 05:30 AM
So now we're celebrating because a judge did his job, and actually made the call he should have made? How cynical.

illusivemind
22 Dec 2005, 07:20 AM
So now we're celebrating because a judge did his job, and actually made the call he should have made? How cynical.

Heh, seems reasonable to celebrate when you have people in power who agree with the sentiments of Former school board member William Buckingham who advanced the policy:



“I’m still waiting for a judge or anyone to show me anywhere in the Constitution where there’s a separation of church and state,” he said. “We didn’t lose; we were robbed.”

mattj
22 Dec 2005, 07:56 AM
Mattj, I believe you are putting forward in a roundabout way the argument that nothing can exist without a creator, and so there must be an intelligent designer of the universe?


Nah I'm not sophistocated enough to make my points in roundabout ways. :)

(1) Some things in the universe are made by people. (I don't really like the word "made" but I don't know what the right word is. People don't breathe stuff into existence, but they use chemical processes to change things from one form to another. They cut things into funny shapes. The write their names on things when they are done. All sorts of things that are as statistically unlikely to happen by chance as for all the air in the room to hide in one corner while people suffocate.)

(2) Everyone knows that some kinds of things are "made" by people. When you see a heap of fresh earth with two sticks of wood tied together so they make a cross shape, yeah, there's a .0000000001% chance they got there by chance, but probably somebody died and someone else buried him.

(3) Everyone knows that some kinds of things are put there by people. Sometimes, from the physical location of objects, you can deduce the emotions of the person who put it there. Books on a shelf in someone's house are there because the person put them there. Based on which books he has, you can infer something about what kind of a person he is. Detectives in particular are always looking at tire tracks and scraps of paper and trying to figure out what they mean.

Now, we humans know, without being told, which things were definitely "made" by people, which things are "natural", and which things are questionable. I'm a computer person by training. So I'm naturally curious about what the algorithm is that people are using. It would be cool to know, analytically, what it is that our brains are doing. That's it. It seems like a cool thing to know. I've read "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy." I know what happens when you try to prove G-d's existence using science. All I'm saying is that these people, who are nuts, are talking about a problem that is nontrivial and seems like it would be fun to play with. I'm not going to not play with the problem just because I disagree with their politics. One of my games that I've been playing lately is to go into someone's house and try to deduce things about their personality by the way things are organized and where they're located. It is a fun game.

Clearly some of the factors that are taken into account are:
- smoothness
- symmetry
- contours/edges
- what kind of material?
- when it moves, how does it move?
(i.e. anything that runs under its own power and is man-made is going to move in a very different way than things that run under their own power that are "natural." And anything that's moving as a result of outside forces is again going to move in a very characteristic way.)

There's also an interesting anthropomorphic thing going on. People want to assign meaning to objects, to say that a person put them there. That rock formation in New Hampshire, I forget the name.. Everyone knows that it's just a coincidence that it looks like a person, that it wasn't sculpted by a person, but they go to visit it anyway. Well, before it crumbled anyway. People want to find writing and other human-made things in places where it doesn't exist. It is a cool phenomenon, too see how biased our own perceptions are. Take four pens and you'll see four pens, but if you put them in an "E" shape most people will see the "E" first and at a glance. They'll only see the pen-ness if they spend more time looking. It is cool to be able to examine our own filters and biases that way.

Matt

wildcat
22 Dec 2005, 08:09 AM
I hate to say anything in defense of ID.
I really, really, really hate to say anything in defense of ID.
Because the people who are pushing for ID are such nuts, and their motives are wrong.
But.
Cars don't come from nowhere.
Airplanes don't come from nowhere.

The pilot episode of "The Twilight Zone" is called "Where is Everybody?" You see a guy in a uniform wandering around a town with no people. There is nothing to indicate what happened to all the people. All the cars are neatly parked, all the counters are clean and shiny. Everything is exactly as it should be, except there are no people.

We, the audience, know, well before Rod Serling comes out, that something is very wrong here. We've seen people by themselves in the countryside. We've seen people in crowded cities. And we've seen people in deserted cities, where the physical objects tell the story of why people left. But we've never seen a city with no people like this one before, and we know, without being told, that something very weird is going on here.

Much as I hate to admit it, there is a certain amount of truth to this whole ID nonsense. The problem is that these people aren't looking for truth, they're looking to muddy the water. It don't like it when people muddy the water. The universe is hard enough to understand as it is. Imagine if these people devoted all that money to honest-to-goodness scientific research instead of lawyer's fees and think tanks and other selfish and ultimately pointless things...

Matt
I do not come from New York to New York.