Introvert --> Extrovert

[TPol]

I got to thinking today about being as introverted as I am. Getting a dose of people once in a while does feed a writer's mind, it seems, so I started wondering if there really is such a thing as being "too introverted." At this very moment, I can count three people who are making it their personal mission to get me to be less of a hermit. Another makes comments like, "the silent ones like you are the ticking time bombs of society" and "you've got to learn to express rather than bottle everything up inside because that's going to build up & who knows what's going to happen." Mind you, I'm about as dangerous as a slug, but this gal thinks there's something "wrong upstairs" with introverts. I don't agree, but with so many people thinking these ways, it does make me wonder if almost 100% introversion is somehow an unhealthy thing? So, I googled "too introverted" and found this website:
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/09/how-to-go-from-introvert-to-extrovert/

I'm open to hearing about opinions on extreme introversion or thoughts on the blog entry URL I posted above. Also, who here has tried to become more extroverted? Were you successful in making a permanent change? Why did you strive to be more extroverted? Think you'd ever revert back? If so, would it be a disappointment or a relief?

[Nadiar]

The only reason people think stupid shit like this is because they don't understand introversion and extroversion. Not playing with other people doesn't make you introverted. Biking alone doesn't mean you're an introvert. Enjoying parties doesn't mean you're extroverted.

There are two common examples of "conversions"

First, you have S's who learn to enjoy the thrill of being in a situation they can't really control. They're still introverted, but the signs are blurred.

Second, you have E's that are shy, and learn to not be shy.

People like this "Steve Pavlina" seem to think that introversion means you are shy and withdrawn, but it doesn't. He lists chatting online as an introverted activity. Its not. The more I read his page, the more its clear he has no fucking clue what he's talking about. He says he's a "logical intuitive" but everything on his page screams ISxJ. I would guess he's an ISTJ, but he makes such an effort to be something he's not that its pretty hard to tell for sure.

[Rhu]

Personally, I think it to be important to have all of your MBTI type functions developed to some degree. Neglecting feeling for thinking can get you into some lousy situations, neglecting sensing for intuition can leave you missing some important details. Being too strong a P is going may tend to make you a bit too detached and indecisive, while being too strong a J could lead to a person not processing the whole picture before acting.

Neglecting extroversion to be withdrawn? I guess the easiest way for me to look at this is to move it to a larger scale--look at isolated societies versus societies with a great deal of interaction. The diffusion of ideas between cultures tends to lead to innovations and adaptations much more quickly than is normally seen by a culture in isolation.

Perhaps putting this to a more personal level is fallacious, but the general principles still hold--If you isolate yourself to the point that you don't interact and converse meaningfully with others, you are probably going to be much slower in your personal development and betterment.

But then, if you are perfectly happy with yourself the way you are and can't see any room for improvement, I suppose you wouldn't really need the support and ideas of others so much and could safely withdraw without looking like a loony.

[Nadiar]

Anyway, on to the second half of your post.

Can you be "less introverted" it depends on what you mean. Can you learn to enjoy going out to social gatherings more? Sometimes, it really depends on what social gatherings you're attending. Can you reduce the energy drain from attending social gatherings? No. You'll still require alone time to recuperate.

As for being unhealthy, do you have a few close friends you get along with and like to "let loose" with? Friends you can talk with for hours and not get bored? If yes, you're fine. If you're completely solitary you'll have just as many problems as an extrovert that never has time alone.

As for the three busy-bodies following you around pushing you to get out more, buy them each a copy of Keirsey's "Please Understand Me II" for Christmas.

[TPol]

Perhaps putting this to a more personal level is fallacious, but the general principles still hold--If you isolate yourself to the point that you don't interact and converse meaningfully with others, you are probably going to be much slower in your personal development and betterment.

But then, if you are perfectly happy with yourself the way you are and can't see any room for improvement, I suppose you wouldn't really need the support and ideas of others so much and could safely withdraw without looking like a loony.

I grew up preferring solitude or only a few people around me. I'm still the same way. I've got a lot of confidence. I do enjoy getting together in small groups with creative people regarding specific interests & hobbies, as long as we discuss and practice on those skills rather than sit around and shoot the breeze. Yet, I still stand out as a hermit, mainly because I listen more than I talk and because I live in a small town where people notice when you don't "mix and mingle" or "be sociable." It is a town of 2,000 and I didn't even know that we had new neighbors move in a couple months ago...that's the extent of the hermit ways. I am content, but this amount of introversion supposedly isn't healthy. That perspective is a curiosity to me. The gal who said such hermits are ticking time bombs...she once said to me, "You know, I used to be really shy; but when I matured, I grew out of it. You can make efforts to get out more and BE with people. It takes maturity and bravery, but you can do it." Frankly, she hasn't a clue and certainly doesn't know me, but the whole attitude seems rather odd and has made me wonder if there truly IS such a thing as being "too introverted." Thus, this thread.


Can you be "less introverted" it depends on what you mean. Can you learn to enjoy going out to social gatherings more? Sometimes, it really depends on what social gatherings you're attending. Can you reduce the energy drain from attending social gatherings? No. You'll still require alone time to recuperate.
As for being unhealthy, do you have a few close friends you get along with and like to "let loose" with? Friends you can talk with for hours and not get bored? If yes, you're fine. If you're completely solitary you'll have just as many problems as an extrovert that never has time alone.
As for the three busy-bodies following you around pushing you to get out more, buy them each a copy of Keirsey's "Please Understand Me II" for Christmas.

I hate noisy, large crowds. I can stand and sometimes enjoy small groups gathering to pursue similar interests/hobbies, but prefer that the meetings don't last long and aren't very often. Otherwise, it gets to be too much, and I just really need to find the exit sign.

When I want to, I will occasionally "let loose" in writing to two awesome friends I consider as "family." I don't enjoy talking for hours with either one of them. It just isn't the sort of thing I do. People who read my blog here know more about me than either of these two friends. And I choose not to talk to them in person, if I have a problem. I will listen for hours, but I have no urge to talk. I don't consider my behavior unhealthy, but have heard that it is enough now that I am starting to wonder if this path of so much internal and external solitude truly does lead to problems I don't now foresee.

So, when I stumbled upon this guy's perspective (which matches the perspective of Ms. "You need to mature so you aren't a ticking time bomb"), it made me even more intrigued about the whole concept of consciously becoming more extroverted.

Oh, and I did purchase "The Introvert Advantage" by Marti Olsen Laney and have this gal read it. She didn't make much comment to me, but it wasn't long after this that her son wrote me an email and said he'd decided he wasn't an INTP after all....that he was an ES-something-or-other. (sigh)

Tee hee. Maybe I shoulda put this in the Rants section. :)

[INTrPosr]

I don't agree, but with so many people thinking these ways, it does make me wonder if almost 100% introversion is somehow an unhealthy thing?TPol, when I was administered the Step II, I maxed out on introversion. That was four years ago, and in retrospect, I have come to realize how unhealthy I have been. There are test that measure the dichotomies, such as HUMAN METRICS (http://humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm). Authors of test and books inform us that there are no pure types, and that the further you vary from the middle of two dichotomies (i.e. I>>>E, S>>>N, etc.) the more unhealthy you are. For an introvert, it would result in becoming too much of a hermit, for extroverts, an inability to go inside and an increasing dependency on sources outside of the self. So, yes too much introversion is very unhealthy.

On a relevant note, this forum seems to have a fixation on suicide. I can only surmise that much of it is due to some keeping to much inside. I am one to speak, but have come to appreciate the need for external stimuli. Keep in mind that, extroversion does not necessarily equate to being around people, and could also mean being active.

[panoramix]

I don't know what to do with my introversion too. I do think
that I'm really too introverted and it's quite unhealthy. My main
hobby is reading and browsing wikipedia, hmm how nerdy is that?
I should find more social hobbies.

[geniusndisguise]

I think the suggestions in the blog were valid. I smiled when I saw the one about seeing extraverts as shallow. I frequently look at these people who are loud, stupid and making fools of themselves and wonder why I would ever want to be like that. But I also agree that this person doesn't quite catch the idea of what an introvert really means. I'm a waitress, so I spend all day talking to people, laughing, apologizing, for 8 hours or more. I've noticed that when I get out of work I'm way more tired than I should be. I can't do anything except lay on the couch for two hours when I'm done. This is not physical exhaustion, it's introversion. That will never change, even if I do become more sociable.

[panoramix]

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/09/how-to-go-from-introvert-to-extrovert/

I'm open to hearing about opinions on extreme introversion or thoughts on the blog entry URL I posted above. Also, who here has tried to become more extroverted? Were you successful in making a permanent change? Why did you strive to be more extroverted? Think you'd ever revert back? If so, would it be a disappointment or a relief?

I agree with the blog.
Me.
Nope.
To meet more people and be more social.
Revert back to introvert? Heh, once an introvert, always an introvert.
I like to be more sociable of course, but the true nature of me will
never change, like the above poster, I have to recharge myself after
a long waitressing job like that.

[TPol]

TPol, when I was administered the Step II, I maxed out on introversion. That was four years ago, and in retrospect, I have come to realize how unhealthy I have been. There are test that measure the dichotomies, such as HUMAN METRICS (http://humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm). Authors of test and books inform us that there are no pure types, and that the further you vary from the middle of two dichotomies (i.e. I>>>E, S>>>N, etc.) the more unhealthy you are. For an introvert, it would result in becoming too much of a hermit, for extroverts, an inability to go inside and an increasing dependency on sources outside of the self. So, yes too much introversion is very unhealthy.

Unhealthy in what way, though? "Unhealthy" in the eyes of traditional psychology or mainstream society? Or, did you personally feel unhealthy...you were too introverted according to your own standards? If the latter, what was unhealthy about it for you? If that gets too personal to answer, don't feel like you need to. The subject obviously fascinates me.


On a relevant note, this forum seems to have a fixation on suicide. I can only surmise that much of it is due to some keeping to much inside. I am one to speak, but have come to appreciate the need for external stimuli. Keep in mind that, extroversion does not necessarily equate to being around people, and could also mean being active.

Actually, back when I was so suicidal (high school & early college), it had nothing to do with keeping feelings inside. It was a combination of the existential depression talked about in another thread (which I think INTPs must be especially prone to) and feeling like my physical absence would be more productive for my family & the world than my physical presence. Keeping feelings from people isn't necessarily keeping them inside anyway. I like the concept of extroversion not equating being around people....that it means being active. I'd, therefore, be labelled as extroverted and be left alone without people trying to drag me out to social functions. (smirk)(They are well-meaning, just misguided.)


But I also agree that this person doesn't quite catch the idea of what an introvert really means. I'm a waitress, so I spend all day talking to people, laughing, apologizing, for 8 hours or more. I've noticed that when I get out of work I'm way more tired than I should be. I can't do anything except lay on the couch for two hours when I'm done. This is not physical exhaustion, it's introversion. That will never change, even if I do become more sociable.

Exactly. Both hubby and I are introverted (me more than he) and feel the same way. After a long day of phone work and face-to-face interaction with a horde of people, we simply lock all the doors and retreat to our hermitage. The more interaction we've had during the day, the more exhausted we are. Then the extroverts we know cannot figure out why we don't want to go out to some social function that evening! Ugh! It is wonderful to be married to a fellow introvert who understands.

My original questions:
Also, who here has tried to become more extroverted?
Were you successful in making a permanent change?
Why did you strive to be more extroverted?
Think you'd ever revert back?
If so, would it be a disappointment or a relief?



Me.
Nope.
To meet more people and be more social.
Revert back to introvert? Heh, once an introvert, always an introvert.
I like to be more sociable of course, but the true nature of me will
never change, like the above poster, I have to recharge myself after
a long waitressing job like that.

You were striving to be more extroverted by meeting people and being more social, but what was your initial reason for striving to be more extroverted, if I might ask? Feeling a need for human interaction? Wanting to feel more "normal?" Neither being bad reasons, mind you. Just wanting to know if it was a drive from within or whether society was driving you to try. By your next answer, I'm assuming that you feel the need for human interaction once in a while and try to be sociable during those times, which is perfectly understandable.

I guess I'm trying to determine if there is a certain degree of introversion that is truly unhealthy. And, if it is unhealthy, how? Does it depend on the person? In other words, is it possible that 90-100% introversion is perfectly healthy for one person yet unhealthy for another? Actually, maybe that isn't what I'm getting at either. Maybe I'm using "introversion" and "seclusion" interchangeably and shouldn't be. Ah, I bet that's it. So, is seclusion....hermit behavior where you go into the woods and rarely see people ever again.....unhealthy? Why?

[nomir_dva]

It is not introversion that is the problem for people, but the guilt that is almost inevitably associated with it. From all directions one hears that it is wrong to be an introvert; you should be a "people person" or you should "get out more." Introverts are all crazy like the Unibomber; we bottle up our feelings; we have low self-esteem. To most people, introversion is a disease. I think that the only way to be a happy introvert is to develop personal, internal standards of 'good' and 'bad.' If we rely upon society for that, we almost inevitably sink into self-contempt because of our inability to conform to those standards.

Until quite recently, I agreed with the majority - I thought that I was broken due to my introversion. Learning about the MBTI helped me to understand why I felt so exhausted after coming home frome school. I was neither physically nor intellectually tired, but somehow my energy was still depleted.

It is probably unhealthy to fear the company of others and to avoid it for that reason. I do not see why it would be unhealthy simply to not require that company.

[Nadiar]

nomir_dva,
The only point any personality aspect is bad is when you allow it to control your life. The Crazy Cat Lady with 20 cats and carpets covered in cat shit is a great example.

I realize that I'm not that old, but one thing that has always amazed me is that the older I get, the more I look back at those younger than myself, and recognize that they are thinking the same things that I used to think.

I see young introverts that are going through the same self doubt that I went through years ago, and frankly its sort of perplexing. I wish I was motivated enough, arrogant enough, and skilled enough to write a book that might help you, but I'm not. Perhaps I'm arrogant enough, but the other two are completely not me :)

I used to have thoughts like "wouldn't it be great if I could just will myself to death." And then I would actually try it. This is how much pressure I was under to behave in the way that society thought I should act. I studied hypnosis, and astral projection thinking that they might help me gain the mental focus to do it. The closest I got was slowing myself enough that I fell unconscious. I was 15 or 16 at the time. I read up on psychology thinking maybe something was wrong with me, and if I could identify what it was wrong with me, then I could fix it. The more I read about different problems, the more I realized how subjective they are. Almost any psychological problem can be applied to someone if you really want to apply it to them. I recognize that most mental problems such as schizophrenia do have a basis in reality, but they're really just extreme examples of things everyone else does.

So back to killing myself by sheer will. While I was doing this, I had an epiphany. Its weird because if I am honest, I would say I met God. I met, and spoke with God. It's fairly fanciful, I know, but it has shaped my belief in God. Now, my view on God is fairly complex, and I can never truly be sure if my view on God was just an amalgam of things I had read that sounded TRUE or if perhaps I have definitive proof that God exists. But in order to continue the story, I must explain God.

I am God. I am a facet of God. Perhaps you are a facet of God as well. Perhaps the God in all of us is linked together, perhaps not. I'm not in your head, so I can't take a look. God isn't some vast will, directing the oceans, and the formation of mountains. He doesn't speak to us through Angels, he's not bound to our definitions of religion. He isn't defined by a set of laws. He's neither 'good' nor 'evil' he simply 'is'. Religions start as a way to *explain* something. As such I think they have attracted people like myself, who have had this experience, and we alter the religion by giving it a base.

So back to this visit with God. As I'm laying there, God (or my Superego, whichever you prefer) tells me to live. I'm sure some people, when commanded by God to do something, would just go ahead and do it, but apparently not myself. I questioned his command. Why should I live? Which soon turned to "why shouldn't I live?" And thus we have the nature of God, and the meaning of Life. In my mind, none of the rest of you truly matter. I might feel sad if some of you died, but in the end, the only thing that matters is MY perception of reality.

And to you, the only thing that should matter to you is your perception of reality. What do you want?

To Tarantino this post, we're going back to the Crazy Cat Lady. Chances are, she would like to go out and meet people, but something is holding her back. Maybe its fear, maybe its depression, maybe it’s something else entirely, but she's still being held back. That’s unhealthy. Something else that’s unhealthy: Thinking you're unhealthy only because someone else tells you you're unhealthy.

I know I'm horribly long-winded here, but I want you to remember one thing. It is unimportant what others think of you. It is only important what you think of yourself. Define yourself.

[TPol]

Nadiar: Wow. I know that wasn't "to" me, but I'll respond to it anyway. You should write a book. Seems to me you're skilled enough. If you think not, think again. If someone else has told you you're not, follow your own advice in your last paragraph. So then it comes down to motivation. Only you can do that part. Nice write-up anyway.

[Nighthawk]

I've run the gamut from extreme introvert to strong extravert throughout my life. While I've always been a true introvert, I've learned to display some very extraverted qualities over time. While I dabbled in extraversion during high school, my main method of transformation was the 4-year pressure cooker of an undergrad military academy. They forcibly employed some of the methods outlined in the blog you linked ... most notably joining lots of organizations and ample "opportunities" to develop my social skills. I was forced into situations where I had to become a leader and be more extroverted in order to succeed in the organization (i.e. not get tossed out of the academy and lose my scholarship). This was done on a daily basis over the entire 4 years. Repeated public speaking, taking charge of projects, motivating people in bad situations (ex: in the rain after 36 hours without sleep), and being responsible for a myriad of tasks that required a lot of interaction with people.

I did not become an extravert. What I did was gain some extraverted skills that I still feel comfortable using to this day. Foremost among them are good speaking skills, aggressiveness, and knowing how to be visible. A decade as an army officer gave me the opportunity to hone these and add a few more. The army was (is) a highly sociable place ... not in terms of everybody being friendly to each other, but in terms off ass kissing and ruthless politicking to get ahead. I learned how to play the game, although I found it (and still find it) extremely distasteful. I never reached master level at army socialization ... journeyman at best, but I can do it if needed.

After leaving the military, I placed myself in a niche that does not require much extraversion. I reverted back to an introvert almost immediately. I still have my extravert toolset to dig out whenever I need it, but I only use it when I want to. In earlier years, I strove to be more extraverted because that was the environment in which I found myself. Nowadays, I am in a different environment, so I don't need it as much anymore. I am much more comfortable being an introvert. I never ceased being an introvert however, despite some hardcore extraverted indoctrination for many years. I highly recommend developing an extravert toolset however. Even if you don't "become" an extravert, it will make dealing with them and the extraverted world more painless. Nowadays, if I keep my mouth shut, it is out of personal choice rather than fear or anxiety.

[Nadiar]

Nadiar: Wow. I know that wasn't "to" me, but I'll respond to it anyway. You should write a book. Seems to me you're skilled enough. If you think not, think again. If someone else has told you you're not, follow your own advice in your last paragraph. So then it comes down to motivation. Only you can do that part. Nice write-up anyway.

I ramble.

The skill I lack is judging when I have written enough, and when I have not. I have no doubt I could write 25 pages for a book, or 50 pages if I work on it. I doubt I could reach 100 pages, or 200 pages before my circular thoughts would wind back in on themselves and you would get closer and closer to the randomness that comes from my stream of consciousness.

[C.J.Woolf]

The only times I act extraverted is in my job. So no, I've never tried to become more extraverted for social reasons.


* Overvaluing online socializing. Online socializing has its place in your life, but it’s a pale shadow compared to face-to-face, belly-to-belly communication. Voice and body language can communicate a lot more than text, and emotional bonds are easier and faster to establish in person. I feel much closer to the local friends I’ve known for only a few months than I do to the people I’ve known online for years but never met in person. It’s just not as fun going out to dinner with a laptop. You don’t have to do away with online socializing, but don’t allow it to crowd out meeting people locally. If you do that, you’ll only cause your interpersonal skills to lag further behind.
(Emphasis mine.) One of my pet peeves is people who undervalue online socializing. On one level the blogger is correct -- it's easier to make a friend in meatspace if your meatspace friend is truly compatible with you. But what is more probable for an INTP, that you'll find a close friend locally, or online, somewhere else in the whole wide world?

I think outward appearances can obfuscate as much as communicate. I like to get to know someone through their words alone. The few online friends I met in person were exactly as I thought they would be. Conversation was great; any initial awkwardness was long out of the way because we already knew each other. I'm guessing the blogger would agree, seeing how he met his wife online. :D

I suppose this makes me a hardcore introvert.

[Nighthawk]

I also value online socializing a lot. I'm better at communicating in the written word, than in the spoken word.

[nomir_dva]

nomir_dva,


I realize that I'm not that old, but one thing that has always amazed me is that the older I get, the more I look back at those younger than myself, and recognize that they are thinking the same things that I used to think.

I see young introverts that are going through the same self doubt that I went through years ago, and frankly its sort of perplexing. I wish I was motivated enough, arrogant enough, and skilled enough to write a book that might help you, but I'm not. Perhaps I'm arrogant enough, but the other two are completely not me :)


And to you, the only thing that should matter to you is your perception of reality. What do you want?

I know I'm horribly long-winded here, but I want you to remember one thing. It is unimportant what others think of you. It is only important what you think of yourself. Define yourself.

I agree with you, although such a re-orientation of one's value system is difficult. I think that these lessons must be leanred anew by each person as he progresses through life; they must be experienced personally and cannot be taught. Of course, it is always helpful to know that others have come before on the same path.

[Nighthawk]

I think that these lessons must be leanred anew by each person as he progresses through life; they must be experienced personally and cannot be taught. Of course, it is always helpful to know that others have come before on the same path.

Amen. That's my mantra as well. I try to stay off my kids' backs about what they do ... unless it affects me directly or they are about to kill themselves. Everything else is a learning experience that they must learn themselves ... rather than have the old man get on his soapbox and pontificate again. Even if they are going through the same things I went through. If they come to me to talk about it, I will relate how I felt during that time and what I did ... no more. It is very hard for my ISFJ wife to tolerate, as she thinks that I ... the family "patriarch" ... should be directing everybody as to how to lead their lives.

[INTrPosr]

Unhealthy in what way, though? "Unhealthy" in the eyes of traditional psychology or mainstream society? Or, did you personally feel unhealthy...you were too introverted according to your own standards? If the latter, what was unhealthy about it for you? If that gets too personal to answer, don't feel like you need to. The subject obviously fascinates me.Yes, it is and was the latter. I found it hard to get out and get things started or done. For awhile, I thought that I was suffering from anxiety attacks. If I went into a building that was noisy and full of people, I would immediately turn around and leave. I became comfortable (or at least I thought it was comfort) staying inside my house and not being seen.
Actually, back when I was so suicidal (high school & early college), it had nothing to do with keeping feelings inside. It was a combination of the existential depression talked about in another thread (which I think INTPs must be especially prone to) and feeling like my physical absence would be more productive for my family & the world than my physical presence. Keeping feelings from people isn't necessarily keeping them inside anyway.Not to really get into this, because I do appreciate that for whatever reasons people consider suicide, the issues for them are real. Anyhow, based on you statements, did you ever share your views with your family? Rhetorical question?
I like the concept of extroversion not equating being around people....that it means being active. I'd, therefore, be labelled as extroverted and be left alone without people trying to drag me out to social functions.I feel exactly the same way, as do many ENTPs.

[TPol]

I've run the gamut from extreme introvert to strong extravert throughout my life. While I've always been a true introvert, I've learned to display some very extraverted qualities over time. While I dabbled in extraversion during high school, my main method of transformation was the 4-year pressure cooker of an undergrad military academy...Repeated public speaking, taking charge of projects, motivating people in bad situations (ex: in the rain after 36 hours without sleep), and being responsible for a myriad of tasks that required a lot of interaction with people.

You have confirmed for me, once again, that my Dad was right to suggest I not join the military. Sounds like it really wasn't the place for an INTP. I did have a civilian job during my early 20s that required enough extroverted qualities to "force me out." Oddly enough, I managed to be mostly invisible during the big public events I organized, though. I just know I'd have seen all that military politicking distastful and stupid, as it sounds you did. I know you have an unusual history of fighting "the system," and I think you were right and good to stand up.


After leaving the military, I placed myself in a niche that does not require much extraversion. I reverted back to an introvert almost immediately. I still have my extravert toolset to dig out whenever I need it, but I only use it when I want to. In earlier years, I strove to be more extraverted because that was the environment in which I found myself. Nowadays, I am in a different environment, so I don't need it as much anymore. I am much more comfortable being an introvert. I never ceased being an introvert however, despite some hardcore extraverted indoctrination for many years. I highly recommend developing an extravert toolset however. Even if you don't "become" an extravert, it will make dealing with them and the extraverted world more painless. Nowadays, if I keep my mouth shut, it is out of personal choice rather than fear or anxiety.

I don't blame you for reverting back to introversion. I did that, too, when I had to quit the job mentioned above. I keep my mouth shut out of personal choice about 90% of the time. Lately, probably because I've allowed myself to become so introverted again, a little frustration about public speaking has reared its head. But, you give good advice in developing an extrovert toolset. It does seem to be needed in this world. Oh, and regarding a previous comment about your parenting style, it sounds like you are as down-to-earth and patient as my Dad was...giving your kids space to grow and fly on their own. That's neat.


I ramble. The skill I lack is judging when I have written enough, and when I have not. I have no doubt I could write 25 pages for a book, or 50 pages if I work on it. I doubt I could reach 100 pages, or 200 pages before my circular thoughts would wind back in on themselves and you would get closer and closer to the randomness that comes from my stream of consciousness.

That's precisely what I thought about my own writing until I came to INTPc and realized that some here do wade through long posts. Looking through some of the books chosen here as reading material, I realized that people are willing to work their way through lots and lots of pages in order to glean the jewels from the text. So, since you have writing skills and are able to crank out so much material so quickly, I think you still ought to try your hand at some "professional" writing...if that's what interests you.


One of my pet peeves is people who undervalue online socializing. On one level the blogger is correct -- it's easier to make a friend in meatspace if your meatspace friend is truly compatible with you. But what is more probable for an INTP, that you'll find a close friend locally, or online, somewhere else in the whole wide world?

Actually, that's one of my latest pet peeves, too...because of an older acquaintance's approach to her grandson about it. I've been suspecting that he's an INTP, and he's in a small community like I am. It isn't like we NTs are just everywhere you look IRL. They are most commonly found on the Internet. And, in the meantime (long after the initial conversation with her, which is so typical of me), I thought of a rebuttal to her comment of, "He's always on online forums and chatrooms. He needs to get out among people out here [waves her hand in the air between us], to actually SEE people face-to-face." I should have said, "Would you be more understanding if he was deaf or blind and house-bound, thus the forums/chat-rooms were his BEST way to be social?" Not the best of arguments, but it would have made her think a bit.


I think outward appearances can obfuscate as much as communicate. I like to get to know someone through their words alone. The few online friends I met in person were exactly as I thought they would be. Conversation was great; any initial awkwardness was long out of the way because we already knew each other. I'm guessing the blogger would agree, seeing how he met his wife online.

I hadn't picked up on the idea that he met his wife online. Heh. That's interesting. I, too, love to get to know people via their written words alone. One can tell quite a bit about a person via what s/he chooses to write and in a certain way. Like Nighthawk mentioned about himself, I am far better at communicating in the written word than I am through speech. For me, I figured it was because I could set my own pace a little better as well as revise when needed.





Unhealthy in what way, though? "Unhealthy" in the eyes of traditional psychology or mainstream society? Or, did you personally feel unhealthy...you were too introverted according to your own standards? If the latter, what was unhealthy about it for you? If that gets too personal to answer, don't feel like you need to. The subject obviously fascinates me.
Yes, it is and was the latter. I found it hard to get out and get things started or done. For awhile, I thought that I was suffering from anxiety attacks. If I went into a building that was noisy and full of people, I would immediately turn around and leave. I became comfortable (or at least I thought it was comfort) staying inside my house and not being seen.

Reminds me of the incident in "Finding Forrester" when the writer gets out in public once again and is overwhelmed by the mass of people at the subway terminal. In actuality, I related to that incident a lot myself, but I never let it show nor do I let myself back out of such situations because I know that if I do that, I will really become a recluse...even from people I do enjoy. I personally don't see anything wrong with extreme seclusion, but I don't want to get so used to it that I avoid even the people I love. So, I guess I understand your perspective. And perhaps there is a point of "unhealthiness" about it that I am instinctively seeing but not allowing myself to reach. Maybe I'm just putting my feelers out in hopes of finding that line because the process of voluntary seclusion is taking place slowly but increasingly for me right now, and I see ahead an opportunity to become even more secluded because of a potential job change for us. Hmmm...


Not to really get into this, because I do appreciate that for whatever reasons people consider suicide, the issues for them are real. Anyhow, based on you statements, did you ever share your views with your family? Rhetorical question?

No. It would have made my Dad paranoid of it for the rest of his life, and my mom would have egged on his fears just because she loved seeing him flustered or upset...all while she subtly & secretly egged me on to go ahead and do it. So, no, I didn't share my views with anyone at all. One night, I just planned to do it....had it all worked out in my head to the smallest detail...and a friend came along and unknowingly fouled up the plan. Both times, same friend. Kinda weird.

Anyway, I really didn't start this thread so people would be reading all about me, though I am interacting with the responses a lot by telling my own tales. I guess that is what happens in conversation. I am fascinated to see the responses and know where people have gone in their lives on this introversion/extroversion balance. Thank you for your responses so far, gang. I'm not done thinking this through and reading, so keep 'em coming.

[Nighthawk]

You have confirmed for me, once again, that my Dad was right to suggest I not join the military. Sounds like it really wasn't the place for an INTP. I did have a civilian job during my early 20s that required enough extroverted qualities to "force me out." Oddly enough, I managed to be mostly invisible during the big public events I organized, though. I just know I'd have seen all that military politicking distastful and stupid, as it sounds you did. I know you have an unusual history of fighting "the system," and I think you were right and good to stand up.


The military is a very, very odd place for an INTP. To this day, I still do not know why I was so fascinated by it to join. It is such an anathema to everything I am. Best I can figure is subconscious parental pressure from my father ... or a love of military strategy/tactics. It was a very uncomfortable environment for me, although I did take away many learning experiences and did better myself through it. There was a constant pressure however, to be something that I wasn't ... an extravert. The military doesn't make any allowances for the fact that an animal such as an introvert can even exist. To them, it is a sign of weakness and abnormality. To me, they are a bunch of closed-minded, shallow thinkers who couldn't concentrate on something for any period of time if their lives depended on it. I've come away from the experience with the knowledge that I am a reluctant leader ... but an even more reluctant follower.[/quote]



I don't blame you for reverting back to introversion. I did that, too, when I had to quit the job mentioned above. I keep my mouth shut out of personal choice about 90% of the time. Lately, probably because I've allowed myself to become so introverted again, a little frustration about public speaking has reared its head. But, you give good advice in developing an extrovert toolset. It does seem to be needed in this world. Oh, and regarding a previous comment about your parenting style, it sounds like you are as down-to-earth and patient as my Dad was...giving your kids space to grow and fly on their own. That's neat.


Introversion feels best for me. I try to balance it so that I do not become a total recluse. Having a full social calendar however, like the blog states, would absolutely turn my stomach. One or two nights a week with a small group of friends is fine for me. An entire week with nothing social is also fine with me. I've thought about joining something like Toastmasters, but the reality is that I am happy with things the way they are now. I've done the public speaking bit and cannot think of anything that I've gained from it that I want for my life. I don't want to be an executive or manager, I don't want to be famous, I don't want to be the center of attention. I've done all of those and I prefer being what I am now. Not putting down the people who want to pursue public speaking ... just saying that it won't give me anything that I want at this stage in my life. Maybe later.

As for my kids ... it' not easy easy watching them mess up their lives from time to time (or constantly, in the case of my daughter). Fortunately my drive for autonomy extends to them as well, so I let them do as they will, even if I don't like it. One thing I do recommend to them however ... as I will to any younger person who will listen ... is to do as much exciting, different, extraverted stuff as you can when you are young. It will give you a large measure of self-confidence ... and some great memories to fall back on when you get older. Once you get past 30, you're usually way too caught up with your career and family to do much exciting stuff anymore. Unless you're one of those rare individuals who does it all their life.

[Ella]

I did not become an extravert. What I did was gain some extraverted skills that I still feel comfortable using to this day. Foremost among them are good speaking skills, aggressiveness, and knowing how to be visible. A decade as an army officer gave me the opportunity to hone these and add a few more.

I had a similar experience. For me it wasn't the military but rather a quarter century of social pressure to be an ESFJ, stemming from a combination of being an only child (I was motivated to get along with others if I wanted their company) and looking an awful lot like Barbie (which thrusts some very funny expectations on a girl, teen, and young woman). You can imagine how confusing it all was to a INTP kid. I was raised by my INFJ (I'm guessing) grandmother, who did a good job raising me but wasn't always helpful in negotiating social situations.

I failed spectacularly at that ESFJ stuff, of course, and I wasn't freed from its tyrrany until I took the MBTI in my late twenties. (Needless to say, taking the MBTI changed my life!) I haven't forgotten that quarter century of desperately trying to be ESFJ. I have those skills because I was forced to use and hone them over decades, and I can still pull them up for use when necessary. I can't completely morph into being an ESFJ and was never able to, and I still get things wrong sometimes, but most of the time those skills serve me pretty well. They're horribly draining to use, so they're only good in short bursts, but usually that's all it takes.

[Nighthawk]

I have those skills because I was forced to use and hone them over decades, and I can still pull them up for use when necessary. ... They're horribly draining to use, so they're only good in short bursts, but usually that's all it takes.

Aren't they though. I experience the same energy drain when I have to use those ... um ... "power" tools.

[attila_the_hunny]

One thing I do recommend to them however ... as I will to any younger person who will listen ... is to do as much exciting, different, extraverted stuff as you can when you are young. It will give you a large measure of self-confidence ... and some great memories to fall back on when you get older.

Precisely my intention. :)

[avalanche]

I'm a pretty extreme introvert. I'm not dangerous, though I am more averse to rules and more prone to questioning, since I spend so much time alone, considering things according to my own thoughts about them, rather than adopting prescribed stances.

I find that it's inactivity, rather than introversion, that has a tendency to stunt my creativity and mental livelihood. I need to get out of the house a lot. Walk around, listen to music, go to new places, etc. Sometimes I feel good being around people, but not directly interacting with them.

[Leftfield]

I'm open to hearing about opinions on extreme introversion or thoughts on the blog entry URL I posted above. Also, who here has tried to become more extroverted? Were you successful in making a permanent change? Why did you strive to be more extroverted? Think you'd ever revert back? If so, would it be a disappointment or a relief?

Be warned, this is maybe the longest post ever in INTPc history...

TPol,

I was seraching the web and ran into this site... then instead of a new thread, here we are.

I would say that I have experienced a very accurate depiciton of the one that is mentioned. What Rhu and Nighthawk said is worth reading, before or after this post.

To the people that claim this site is shit, then it may not be for you, but who are you to judge?


I think the overall message is to: more so value real & tangible relationships.

In regards to over-valuing online socializing, yeah... it can be seen as unhealthy, but unless you've met the person or understand them or the tone they use, there can be a lot of miscommunication on-line that takes awhile to realize and capture such miscommunication = waste of lost time.

Also, the other point I think that is being made between real vs. online socializing is that real relationship develops exponentially quicker. In addition, speaking to a person or a group in front of you is much more humanistic then talking on-line, which to me is a bit more robotic.

I value the on-line relationships I've had... to a point... and the only way it can broaden or deepen, is to make real friends with them and meet them in real life! My friendship with Wiki is a clear example of this actuality.


Most of my friends are indeed older than me, but I value wisdom and experiences that people have had in their life, in which I look forward too. I think they like the optimistic youth in me and this also lets them reflect back to when they were my age...

Suggestions for becoming more extroverted... hrmmm, not sure if this is for everybody, but opening up to people on either a social or emotional level is maybe the greatest reward in embracing my weaknesses, which I think again, is the point, if you are an introvert.


I have no general social group, I go to planned social events (tennis, skeptics club), I have random friends in random places but I am open to see if they have a social group and would be willing to join in on it, sure, why not?

- Worst case: if it isn't for me, a little lost time.

+ Best-case: more potential acquaintances, more possible long-term friends, more potential networking to other friends that say, you remind me of Mr. XYZ, you should meet up, maybe even an ideal wife in the mix... you talk about possibilities...


Just last week I said to a couple friends my age,

"I find it odd that I made more friends with my professors than people our age, while in college." (I did want to get a PhD, but now want real world experience to back myself up)

Since I am comfortable about it, I don't see that as an issue, it was just easier to talk to them, plus they have the wisdom I seek. Same goes with the tennis players I competed with over the summer (most in their 30s-50s), maybe half have turned into some form of acquaintanceship, and I continue to get to know them and build a relationship with them. The Japanese embrase people the older they get, I don't think Americans do this around the same level.

I think it is a fair assessment that I can get along with older people I've met in real life much quicker than any random person on-line I connect with (be that, imdb chats, INFPg, INTPc, etc...)... but even then, can I still trust them? What if Person "ABC" on INTPc, was really a guy and is posing as a girl, what if he is a cop lurking/spying, what if he is creepy as fuck?

Example favoring on-line: On-line has its one-of-a-kind niches, like Mulholland Drive on IMDB... vs. real life, it would be hard to get a chat about M. Dr. in Cincy... but I still could promote and distribute it to later have a discussion about it, or join a film club in the city. Meaning, there is probably a real life alternative, that can be turned into a substitute from the on-line world. Why would you do that??? Note the pros and cons of real vs. online socializing as stated above...

Another obvious one is meeting people so insightful that you wouldn't meet in real life. I think of ptGatsby, Creative Chaos and Nighthawk as three fine examples.


- If 94% of all communication in non-verbal, what does that say about the 6% that only gets transmitted in the virtual world... how much of the remainder 94% is noticed on-line?


In short, I'll take the real world vs. the virtual world anyday... but both still have their strengths and weaknesses.

Therefore, experiment; find out how both systems are played, and take the best of both worlds...


T-pol: Yes, very successful the more open-minded and willing you are to change habits, the easier.

Yes, you can revert back: but once you get past the barrier of being scared or concerned to make an ass of yourself, then it should be easier.

Treat life like a game of risk and chance and stop worrying so much about how stupid you may make yourself look... fuck, I do it a lot, but then you can joke about it (what was stupidly said)... getting caught with your foot in your mouth and be contradicted is much quicker than over-analysis and coming to perfection on everything written (notice the length of this reply).

I hope this helps, it helped me out some just typing it out and realizing it to be true to myself, and also to be fairly accurate in general, and may help others in the introverts in bridging the gap with extrovertism, aka adapting to your weaknesses!

External Factors that may trumph all of this; career, wife, family, friends, other "large-scale" factors. It depends on how in control you are of your life and how these factors control you. Motivation. Self-Esteem. Any Psychological Factors. Etc.


LIFE

KICKS

ASS!


Leftfield

P.S. I am a small group person, unless the large group is super sweet. Size has no limit as long as the group makes me feel comfortable... or I am confident as fuck (aka: public speaking).

I am also a writer; so all or bits and pieces of the above post will be used somewhere else. :)

[AllAboutSoul]

Haven't you heard? All we introverts are loners and therefore ax murderers >:P

[intpgolfer]

I got to thinking today about being as introverted as I am. .. it does make me wonder if almost 100% introversion is somehow an unhealthy thing?
I'm open to hearing about opinions on extreme introversion or thoughts on the blog entry URL I posted above. Also, who here has tried to become more extroverted? Were you successful in making a permanent change? Why did you strive to be more extroverted? Think you'd ever revert back? If so, would it be a disappointment or a relief?

You cannot say I am 100% Extroverted - The very basic INTP theory of balance?

1. all types need a way to input information, and then make decisions reguarding the input.
2. INTPs input information with Extroverted Intuition
3. INTPs make decisions reguarding information using Introverted Thinking
4. INTPs balance input=Ne and decisions=Ti

It is not just introverted or extroverted - it is a function that has an E or an I fundamentally attached to it [e.g. Ne, Ti]. You can't say I am going to be 100% E or I because you kill off either a vital perception or a vital judgement function?

So if you are a basic INTP like me, but are 100% introverted - would you not be making more and more decisions in your life, with less and less information?

That could not be good - in the short run - or the long run?

I think an INTP needs at minimum, an effort to balance Ne and Ti - 50/50, 60/40 even 70/30, but 100/0 in favor of introversion [which for an INTP is related to decisions/judgement] with no Ne to get new information is a recipe for disaster?

So never go 100% anything - it is unhealthy, except maybe as an experiment. And even better later on, to play around with the other functions - both extraverted and introverted - and reduce the Ti=50/Ne=50 to something like Ti=50/Ne=30/Si=15/Fe=5?

NOTE: I have added question marks to every line because I am not an expert here. But what I have said hangs togeather for me, and I hope it make sense to you.

[CreativeChaos]

Well, sometimes it helps to get another type's point of view. So, I'm going to give mine on this one. I've seen so many threads regarding this subject, and so many posts about this.

I, too, have tried to extravert (in the common sense of the word). Actually, I really enjoyed this article. It had a lot of good things to say. The general thesis of "how to become an extrovert" was off, yes, but there was good substance to it.


Undervaluing extroversion. Spending time alone and with people are equally important. If you?re very introverted, you may undervalue the positive role people can play in your life, such as knowledge, friendship, growth, laughter, and so on. The optimal outcome is to strike a balance between the two. You don?t have to give up the introvert activities you enjoy. In fact, when you balance them with more social activities, you?ll probably find them even more satisfying. After several nights of being around people, I really look forward to a night by myself to read, meditate, write, etc. And after lots of time alone or with my family, I?m itching to go out and be around other people.

I think he was right on in saying that we shouldn't undervalue the role of real life relationships. And the optimal thing to do is to strike a balance.

TPol, I have found myself in your situation a lot in life. Maybe, the difference is, is that I lamented not having social outlets. But, I could never seem to find people or groups that I enjoyed being with. In a small town, I would think that would be difficult. But, finally, I have found small discussion groups that I like to attend and am happier. Could it not be that you just don't have those outlets where you are? And if you did, you would be out more and socializing more? You would never become an extrovert, but would have more real life contact.

Optimally, I think that striking a balance is good. But, you aren't always in the optimal environment, like Nighthawk in the military. And like myself, in my ESTJ job. Yes, I had to force myself to act extroverted, but I sucked at it. Especially in an SJ way. Thus, my self-esteem actually kept going down, further and further, to the point that I started taking meds to cope. If I had joined the military and experienced what Nighthawk describes, I think I'd totally fly the cope. I'd have a nervous breakdown. Period.

This leads to another point he makes:

Hanging out with the wrong people. Why would you want to spend more time with people you don?t like? If becoming more extroverted means spending more time with people you?d rather avoid, you?ll have no motivation to do it. Again, you?re free to break this pattern and form a social group that you?d love to be a part of.

This is why I kept seeking and seeking out people who were more like me. And I finally found them. Amongst these people I am VERY extroverted. That's because they talk about the things I like to talk about, rather than boring SJ kinds of stuff. I am naturally extroverted in these groups. I don't have to even try to force myself into any role.

That being said, I've been around my SJ friends long enough, that I've learned to chit-chat and blab narrative stuff with them. I have learned that they "narrate" when they talk. Once I learned this concept, it became easier for me to narrate and even turn the topics to topics I like to discuss. So, I am now a big blabber among my SJ friends. Presently, I am trying to see how I can revert to that role in my Neurology class, which is made up of mostly Sensing types girls in there 20's. I haven't figured that one out yet, so I'm rather quiet there.

Which leads to another point:


Envisioning yourself as the wrong kind of extrovert. If you find the extroverted people around you shallow and perhaps even annoying, why would you want to be more like them? You wouldn?t. When I was a kid, I really didn?t want to be more like the extroverts I knew. Even as an adult, my vision of an extrovert was an in-your-face salesperson who only wanted to build a shallow relationship with you so they could sell you something. It seemed very fake and phony to me. And of course that vision prevented me from ever wanting to be like that. But you needn?t choose such a limited vision for yourself ? you?re free to form your own vision of a positive way to be more extroverted.

Now, he may not have expressed this as I would. But, in my life, I have found that I am very extroverted among certain people and in certain situations. These are usually people who like to talk about things I am interested in, and in situations I find interesting.

So, I would put this to you all. What kind of extravert are you. Or more succinctly, in what situations to you find yourself interested enough to really express yourself? If you can figure that out, then perhaps you can obtain more contacts with people by placing yourself in the situations that you "come out". Again, this could be a very difficult proposition for someone in a small town, or someone who is trapped in the military. So...

However, I would put it to you that we all have the blabby "extravert" within us, we just may not be around the kinds of people that we can do that with. Case in point is a college that I believe were mostly INTPs that focused on the sciences. I saw this documentary where these smart science oriented people came from all across the country. They were "geeks" in their school, but in this one, they were "in their element" and finally felt like they were "normal" and socialized a great deal, actually. So are we de-energized by socializing, or are we de-energized by the wrong kind of socializing? I find myself quite energized after a good group discussion session.

The problem is, sometimes you just can't avoid hanging out with the wrong people, because you have to have a job to put food on the table. And as much as people will say that you can find that perfect job that is good for you, you will practically ALWAYS have to deal with people of other types. And real jerk heads of other types as well.


Underdeveloped social skills. Social skills can be learned like any other skill set. One reason introverts shy away from social activities is that they don?t feel comfortable because they don?t know what to do, especially if the unexpected were to occur. Being able to start up a conversation with a stranger AND feel completely comfortable doing it is a learnable skill. The more you do it, the better you get at it. Embrace the fact that you?re a beginner, and don?t compare yourself to others.

Okay. I'd like to know what these so-called "social skills" are. Does it mean being able to chitchat with others? To go to a party and blab nonsense with total strangers? I think the reason most of us feel uncomfortable with most social situations is not lack of social skills, but actually feeling like we are "aliens" in a somehow weird other kind of human species, and, yes, we really don't know what to do. Who are these people anyway? :unsure:

Actually, I do think it a good idea to figure this out. And you can use MBTI to help you do it. What are good social skills among a bunch of ESJs? And aren't they different social skills than if you went to a party with a bunch of ESPs? And what kind of social skills would you need to associate with a bunch of ISTJs? And what about hanging around a bunch of NFs? What kinds of "social skills" would you need then? See?

But the more of this you can figure out, the better. That is only because it is a sad fact of life, that you HAVE to get out there and get a job and actually will find yourself in situations where you HAVE to have some sense of what to do among these alien creatures. That is why I agree with his premise, to NOT undervalue extraversion. It can be painful, boring, scary, very distasteful, but the more you get out there, and learn how to get along with various types of people, the more it becomes your choice to do it or not. We have to eat. And in this society that very often means socializing with a variety of people.


Overvaluing online socializing. Online socializing has its place in your life, but it?s a pale shadow compared to face-to-face, belly-to-belly communication. Voice and body language can communicate a lot more than text, and emotional bonds are easier and faster to establish in person. I feel much closer to the local friends I?ve known for only a few months than I do to the people I?ve known online for years but never met in person. It?s just not as fun going out to dinner with a laptop. You don?t have to do away with online socializing, but don?t allow it to crowd out meeting people locally. If you do that, you?ll only cause your interpersonal skills to lag further behind.

I agree with this, totally. Like Leftfield said, a great percentage of communication is non-verbal. I know for a fact, that you guys have no clue as to what CC is all about. You've never met me. And yet, I have been judged on this forum, in a global way, as if you knew what I was all about. On line, and in forums you see only a fraction of that person.

I'll put it as I have put it before. Yes, online, I reveal a side of myself that my real life friends do not see. That is because I am writing, and taking the time to put a lot of my thoughts down. But this that I am doing is NOT the give and take in a normal conversation. Yes, this has great value, but keep it where it belongs. I use the analogy of a puzzle. What I write here is a part of the puzzle which is Cindy. But it is only a part. What my real friends see is only a part of the puzzle which is Cindy. If I had my real friends on line (which I don't unfortunately) they would see two pieces of the puzzle of Cindy and would be able to understand who Cindy is a great deal more.

Yes, we INPs communicate better in writing. But why is that? It's because you have more time to organize your thoughts. And you are not distracted by body language, the other persons type, what the other person is thinking, disrupted by the other person saying something.

Each has value. But his point was don't overvalue online relationships, and don't undervalue extraversion. I would put it as, don't overvalue the way you can write down your thoughts here, and don't undervalue the real life relationships. See, the value that each has, and take it accordingly.

And again, most importantly, remember that you have to work (most of us, anyway) and you will find yourself in situations where you HAVE to deal with people. That is why it is best for you to take stock in and value your real life above your online life. No one is going to pay you to chat online.