INTPs and getting fired

[Ella]

The thread I started about getting repeatedly fired from jobs didn't survive the crash, so I wasn't able to catch all the responses. If you missed the story before, it's a long-time pattern for me to piss off one person in particular at work, and do so unwittingly, and for no apparent reason (there must be one, thus this thread). The person lets it build and build until they explode at me, then I'm fired within a few days.

This time the explosion was Friday and I was fired Tuesday (last night). I'll never find out what exactly pissed off the Pissed Off Person this time. It's always some personality thing I don't get. The person who did the firing was unrelated to the company. He claimed they just didn't need my services any longer; he was very diplomatic but clearly not truthful. I wanted to scream about how unfair this all was and why wasn't I told what the real reason(s) were and how come the people responsible for this didn't have to be here for the firing? Instead I smiled and took my paycheck and left. I was furious. I think even Captain Janeway would have been impressed with my class and dilpomacy, but I was really furious, especially since the two people responsible for my firing didn't even have the courage to be there (they were in an adjacent room where they could hear everything). Cowards. The financial crisis this has flung me into is not good; we just last week found out our house is contaminated with asbestos and we don't know yet what that is going to cost, so in addition to job hunting, I'm house hunting. I'm partially disabled and it is not easy to find work that can accommodate my disabilities.

Anyway, I don't get it. My jobs rarely last a year. This one was six months. My resume looks so awful that I can't even apply to jobs that require one anymore. I'm trying to save enough money to move, but that's going to be impossible if I cannot find more work, and soon. Does anyone have experience with this kind of thing happening to them? I am a nice person. I do not get involved in drama and gossip and politics. I am polite and reliable and do my job in earnest. At 38, I'm beginning to slide into accepting that this is something I can't grasp or change and I really don't want to go there. If anyone has some insight, I would appreciate hearing it.

[Star]

Anyway, I don't get it. My jobs rarely last a year. This one was six months. My resume looks so awful that I can't even apply to jobs that require one anymore. I'm trying to save enough money to move, but that's going to be impossible if I cannot find more work, and soon. Does anyone have experience with this kind of thing happening to them? I am a nice person. I do not get involved in drama and gossip and politics. I am polite and reliable and do my job in earnest. At 38, I'm beginning to slide into accepting that this is something I can't grasp or change and I really don't want to go there. If anyone has some insight, I would appreciate hearing it.
Are you really, really sure that you're as nice and easygoing as you think? The facts here seem to say otherwise. Maybe you should see a counselor and get an outside opinion.

[DeadDove]

Can't say that I've ever had that problem...chalk it up to me only have two "real" jobs or whatever. I've always seemed to get along with the majority of my co-workers, though sometimes (rarely) I just don't and try to avoid them all together. I've had glowing recommendations from my past job and from what I've been told from some of my current co-workers my name gets brought up fairly often with many people having a high opinion of me. While I may have some people that don't like the way I "operate" what I've noticed is that they usually view other people are lot more negatively than the way they view me. <shrugs>

[Ella]

I've talked with a licensed, Ph.D.'d therapist and two Ph.D.'d career counselors. They shook their heads. One of the career counselors was on a university campus where I had one of these firings, he said the group that works in that particular department is a "freakish little clan," (his words), and that this had happened with others, so in that instance it might not have been me. The rest of the time the only response I get is that they can't figure it out and perhaps they're missing a piece of the puzzle. I agree there's something here I'm not seeing/getting, that's why I posted about it. And yes, I really am that nice. I miss out on the cliquey groupings which I think is a part of the problem but not the whole picture. Plenty of people work successfully in a workplace without being part of the "in" group. There's something else going on to engender that kind of severe loathing; it is hardcore stuff and I can't figure out why I would inspire that in anyone.

My roommate's theory is that I'm an INTP in an ESFJ package. When people "discover" that I don't fit their mental image of who I should be based on my appearance, that makes them a little uncomfortable. They don't have the meta-awareness to realize that's why they're uncomfortable, they just know they're uncomfortable and they start looking for reasons for their discomfort. It's a very short jump from discomfort to dislike. I think this is also part of it, but I've tried repackaging myself and it didn't change the pattern. That might be part of it, but it's still not the whole picture. Those are edges. There's something big in the middle that I'm not seeing.

[Snowflake]

Come on. People should not be so attached to who you are as to get exorbitantly pissed off when you don't meet their expectations. And this especially applies to people you don't even know, let alone a close relationship!

I am also skeptical of getting an "outside" opinion, because if the opinion is based on the information you give the "therapist" could be biased and otherwise just as inaccurate as your own opinion (ph.D. or not!)

Which brings me to my other point, that I really don't think having a ph.D. makes you more insightful in social matters.

And further: If you were working with multiple people, and only one person had a problem with you, I would say the problem was not with you but with the other person. And if one person who has issues with you is enough to get your fired, I would serious question the integrity of the employers with whom you choose the relate yourself, because that is obviously not right.

[Watermark]

I've talked with a licensed, Ph.D.'d therapist and two Ph.D.'d career counselors. They shook their heads. One of the career counselors was on a university campus where I had one of these firings, he said the group that works in that particular department is a "freakish little clan," (his words), and that this had happened with others, so in that instance it might not have been me. The rest of the time the only response I get is that they can't figure it out and perhaps they're missing a piece of the puzzle. I agree there's something here I'm not seeing/getting, that's why I posted about it. And yes, I really am that nice. I miss out on the cliquey groupings which I think is a part of the problem but not the whole picture. Plenty of people work successfully in a workplace without being part of the "in" group. There's something else going on to engender that kind of severe loathing; it is hardcore stuff and I can't figure out why I would inspire that in anyone.

My roommate's theory is that I'm an INTP in an ESFJ package. When people "discover" that I don't fit their mental image of who I should be based on my appearance, that makes them a little uncomfortable. They don't have the meta-awareness to realize that's why they're uncomfortable, they just know they're uncomfortable and they start looking for reasons for their discomfort. It's a very short jump from discomfort to dislike. I think this is also part of it, but I've tried repackaging myself and it didn't change the pattern. That might be part of it, but it's still not the whole picture. Those are edges. There's something big in the middle that I'm not seeing.

I agree mostly with your roommate's theory. This is similar to what I posted in the other thread. Your firing reminds me of mine when I worked in a clothing shop for a short period of time. The true reason for the firing was ambiguous. What I sense from your work experiences is that you have developed an habitual pattern of landing/striving for jobs in environments that are perhaps best suited for SFJs, thus the continual firings. Have you considered taking your job search in a totally different direction? What have the career counselors suggested?

[wildcat]

The thread I started about getting repeatedly fired from jobs didn't survive the crash, so I wasn't able to catch all the responses. If you missed the story before, it's a long-time pattern for me to piss off one person in particular at work, and do so unwittingly, and for no apparent reason (there must be one, thus this thread). The person lets it build and build until they explode at me, then I'm fired within a few days.

This time the explosion was Friday and I was fired Tuesday (last night). I'll never find out what exactly pissed off the Pissed Off Person this time. It's always some personality thing I don't get. The person who did the firing was unrelated to the company. He claimed they just didn't need my services any longer; he was very diplomatic but clearly not truthful. I wanted to scream about how unfair this all was and why wasn't I told what the real reason(s) were and how come the people responsible for this didn't have to be here for the firing? Instead I smiled and took my paycheck and left. I was furious. I think even Captain Janeway would have been impressed with my class and dilpomacy, but I was really furious, especially since the two people responsible for my firing didn't even have the courage to be there (they were in an adjacent room where they could hear everything). Cowards. The financial crisis this has flung me into is not good; we just last week found out our house is contaminated with asbestos and we don't know yet what that is going to cost, so in addition to job hunting, I'm house hunting. I'm partially disabled and it is not easy to find work that can accommodate my disabilities.

Anyway, I don't get it. My jobs rarely last a year. This one was six months. My resume looks so awful that I can't even apply to jobs that require one anymore. I'm trying to save enough money to move, but that's going to be impossible if I cannot find more work, and soon. Does anyone have experience with this kind of thing happening to them? I am a nice person. I do not get involved in drama and gossip and politics. I am polite and reliable and do my job in earnest. At 38, I'm beginning to slide into accepting that this is something I can't grasp or change and I really don't want to go there. If anyone has some insight, I would appreciate hearing it.
This is the problem we should discuss here because it is a problem that concerns many of us. Some of the INTPs do not seem to understand this thing at all. There are various reasons: they are still at school, they are economically independent or they work in a family enterprise.
They are not on their own, and they do not live in the real world.
Everything you say rings a bell, at least in my life. I was expelled from the kindergarten, then from my class in the primary school, again various times from secondary schools, more often from high schools, from college, from the uni.
Then started the real life. I was fired from every job. When I was thirty I had stopped counting.
Yet I am a nice person. I am polite, modest and set back. The more proficient I was in a job the sooner I was fired.
I do not grasp it . But then, there are many things I do not grasp.

[Carebear]

My roommate's theory is that I'm an INTP in an ESFJ package. When people "discover" that I don't fit their mental image of who I should be based on my appearance, that makes them a little uncomfortable.


I do not get involved in drama and gossip and politics.

If you´re in a SJ environment then these things alone would be enough. Its hard to be liked by ESJs if you´re INP, since you fuck up their entire world view by refusing to supply some drama, join in on the gossip and throw a few "im not racist, but those darkies and islamers really are creepy and should not be trusted"-remarks. The only reason why I keep my job is because I use my F for all that its worth, stay hyperdiplomatic and keep complimenting them in such a way that they can´t really hate me, since I´m such a sweet and friendly guy. :)

It sickens me, but had I gone all T on them, I´d soon be outta there... besides, it´s only a part time job while I study, and I´m a night receptionist at a small hotel, which rocks, since it´s basically money for nothing, and I hardly ever have to see the rest of the staff. So a suckup or so every now and then costs me little.

(I could never have kept it up in a workplace where I´d have to do so on a daily basis... not without puking once in a while at least. :) Guess I´ll have to find a N workplace when I´m done studying.)

[INTrPosr]

I'm partially disabled and it is not easy to find work that can accommodate my disabilities.Ella, you do not go into whether this is physical or not. Since you allude to accommodation, I am curious as to whether this may be a tell-tale sign. Are you finding these jobs on your own, or are you going through some facility which advocates for the disabled? Employers deplore people who use their protected classes as a shield (not insinuating that you are doing this).

[INTrPosr]

It sickens me, but had I gone all T on them, I´d soon be outta there... besides, it´s only a part time job while I study, and I´m a night receptionist at a small hotel, which rocks, since it´s basically money for nothing, and I hardly ever have to see the rest of the staff. So a suckup or so every now and then costs me little.Your signature reflects that you are INFP, which would corroborate your actions being alluded to. Are you not INFP?

[Master O]

I just find it hard to believe that you have no idea why these people become so angry with you that you are fired within days.

[avalanche]

I've never been fired, but then, I have quit my jobs before too long [<1 year]. I do a very good job at whatever I'm assigned -- usually the best job of anyone, actually. However, I don't get involved with any of the social stuff, and am pretty much a loner there. I like to stick to myself and just do my work. Actually, that's probably why I get the most work done... I'm not standing around talking all day.

[bergenski]

I just find it hard to believe that you have no idea why these people become so angry with you that you are fired within days.

Unfortunately, I have to agree...if you are going to post looking for advice you should really supply more information...otherwise I think it is too difficult to believe. But anyway, I think INTP's can be found annoying by other people because they think we are intelligent and we often find unintelligent, or lesser intelligent people annoying...I think we also enjoy autonomy so we can be standoffish which makes people think we think we are better or different than them...I just think we are not socially predisposed and some people do not like that. Also, did you not really care about the job because you thought it was beneath you? Not seeming like you care or are emotionally involved with the work would also put people off...

[avalanche]

I think we also enjoy autonomy so we are rather standoffish

...

I just think we are not socially predisposed and some people do not like that.

I wouldn't say INTPs would generally be disliked, exactly... just not receptive to common E/F socialization tactics. Small talk, disruptions 'just to talk,' prying into your life, etc.

I know I'm not rude to these people. Just not receptive, at least in the way that they would expect.

[Snowflake]

I think INTP's can be found annoying by other people because they find we are intelligent and we don't really like unintelligent people...

THAT'S IT!! It's all because Ella is so intelligent that nobody likes her, right.

[bergenski]

THAT'S IT!! It's all because Ella is so intelligent that nobody likes her, right.

Could be, if they feel inferior to her...where was it that said INTP's have the ability to discern other people's weaknesses or flaws...many people don't like being seen through...

[sasapurdue]

This will require really going out on a limb but it may work...Have you considered contacting a former coworker or employer and asking them diplomatically what has happened? You could start something like..."Hi this is Ella Lastname, I know that my employment at X didn't end on the best terms but I am really doing some self-exploration and really trying to make my employment future better, and I am honestly looking for feedback on what happened and maybe how I was construed as a worker and as a person?" I think if you really, clearly communicate that your motive is honestly frank feedback you may actually get it. You could even ask specific questions, "Did you find me abrasive?", "Was I difficult to work with?", "Was I not completing assignments in a satisfactory way?".

[Ella]

My disabilities are physical and not apparent; you wouldn't know I'm disabled unless I told you. It's not a part of my identity and I don't I generally share it with others. The only people who know are my doctors and my roommate. I never told my last employer, no one there knew I was disabled.

As for intelligence, the Pissed Off Person actually thought I was rather stupid. Sometimes people see the INTP internal focus and come to that conclusion. That's only happened to me once or twice but this was one of those times. My roommate and I chuckled over it at home and after that I never gave it any more thought. I know there are some smart people who treat others with contempt and can make you feel mentally retarded within three seconds of talking to them, but I'm not one of those people. I don't think I could do that even if I've tried, I've never been good at that sort of thing.

I hardly spent more than two or three minutes talking with this woman, twice a week, usually when I arrived at work. We pretty much had a hi, how are things conversation for a few minutes and that was it. I was the first to contribute when she decided to collect donations for a nearby family whose house burned down. I honestly have NO idea what could have pissed her off so severely. I am not standoffish. I smile and I'm friendly and remember to inquire about peoples' projects and families, etc. She was always buying kitschy little bits and pieces and placing them around the house, which I noticed and admired (not my style, but I understand she was trying to make things seem homey). Some of the jobs have been SFJ, although some weren't. Working in a nursing home isn't something I would choose but the job wasn't for the home, it was for the family, and I basically stayed just in that one bedroom for most of the time.

[Master O]

if this just happened once, i could buy it. but the fact that this has happened repeatedly, just makes me not believe that you have no insight at all into their anger and your resulting terminations.

at the very minimum you have to have some kind of guess. it also doesn't fit that you didn't even challenge your termination.

it all just sounds fishy. sorry. my Spidey-sense is acting up.

[bergenski]

Breath mints?

[sbw]

My roommate's theory is that I'm an INTP in an ESFJ package. When people "discover" that I don't fit their mental image of who I should be based on my appearance, that makes them a little uncomfortable. They don't have the meta-awareness to realize that's why they're uncomfortable, they just know they're uncomfortable and they start looking for reasons for their discomfort. It's a very short jump from discomfort to dislike. I think this is also part of it, but I've tried repackaging myself and it didn't change the pattern. That might be part of it, but it's still not the whole picture. Those are edges. There's something big in the middle that I'm not seeing.

I like this theory; only, what does an ESFJ "look like"?

that question notwithstanding, if you agree with your roommate than you should shave your head. and buy some combat boots. I still don't know how an ESFJ looks, but I'm sure you will break the mold if you look like a dyke.

Scott

[wildcat]

I feel so sorry for Ella. It is certainly not her fault, and it is not about intelligence. And you cannot challenge your termination. It is the employer who employs and fires you. You do not employ or fire yourself.

[Ella]

I've tried checking back with the Pissed Off Person and even coworkers, sometimes informally, but in this litigious culture no one discusses such things. I'm kind of flailing around for answers and just bought and read through most of "Nice Girls Don't Get The Corner Office." It was interesting (although needs to be more specific). I've made some of the mistakes the author talks about, like trying to stay out of workplace politics ("trying to avoid workplace politics is like trying to avoid the weather. The workplace IS politics," or something to that effect). Fine, but how on earth does someone at my age compete in workplace politics with others who have been honing their political talons for 40 years? You've got to be kidding me. Anyway, these kinds of things are edges, not the meat of the problem. I'm still missing the main part of what's going on.

To answer sbw's question: I look like an overgrown cheerleader. I have curly blonde hair, blue eyes, and a babydoll face. Cute when you're three, not so cute when you're 38. I'm an endomorph, so despite my being an athlete, I look round and soft. Aside from my height (and muscles) there is little strength or power in my appearance (that's one of the reasons I work out). No one associates that kind of appearance with a quiet, thinking, smart introvert whose greatest talent is complex, abstract, theoretical critical analysis. People have very odd ideas of who and what a tall blonde woman should be. Sometimes when they're talking to me I can clearly tell they're not talking to me, they're talking to some image in their head of-- whatever, but that isn't me (I want to grab them by the lapels and make them look right at me and say "Talk to ME, not whatever else you think I am.")

All that contributes to the problem, but again, these kinds of things are the edges, not the main problem. And I'm not blaming this pattern on appearance; I've changed my appearance and it hasn't broken the pattern, there's much more to it than that. I don't know how to place fault but I'm clearly playing some role in this that I'm not seeing.

[Carebear]

Your signature reflects that you are INFP, which would corroborate your actions being alluded to. Are you not INFP?

I am, but that doesn't change the fact that I'd like to be more T and care less about what other people think. Besides, I'm more N than F, and frankly I find it kind of unintelligent and dishonest to suck up to people... until I suddenly find myself in a situation where my feeling automatically kicks in and I'm running the entire politeness/suckup routine, unable (and unwilling) to stop myself.

Well, guess it's not that unintelligent. Seems like it's working. But I still hate that suckup guy. Split personality? Us?

[Carebear]

I' Anyway, these kinds of things are edges, not the meat of the problem. I'm still missing the main part of what's going on.
[...]
I don't know how to place fault but I'm clearly playing some role in this that I'm not seeing.

I think you might be right. But as several others have pointed out, as long as you're not able to present the problem, it's difficult to suggest solutions. Unless you make some more educated guesses about the core of problem. Or even crackpot guesses.

For what it's worth though, you have my sympaties. No solutions, but I feel your pain. Isn't that what women want? ;)

[Biff_Loman]

I'm partially disabled and it is not easy to find work that can accommodate my disabilities.

Specifically, how so?

Asbestos remediation is a piece of cake, in case you're worried about your house. Of course, the thing is that you'd need an able-bodied person to do it, natch.

Whatever the law in your area says, just ignore it. Get the asbestos out of the house and no one has to know it was ever there.

Whoever's doing the work should wear a good mask (i.e., a half-face mask with the finest filter available; mine cost me $70), gloves, and a hat. Whatever form the asbestos takes, just soak it down with water and/or cover it with wet rags. Toss it into garbage bags and throw it out. Presto!

[Snowflake]

In reference, my previous comment was not serious, but sarcastic.


"Talk to ME, not whatever else you think I am.")

I also have experience with people who think you are something other than what you really are, and the only thing I can say is that people who are as shallow as this just aren't worth working with. I would say it takes an incredible amount of self dillusion and singemindedness to put someone in such a mold as this. What's amazing though is that there are people who are willing to put themselves into this mold and become the thing that the other party or person is expecting of them. I think this stems from a lack of understanding of the self and general lack of education.

Don't be a doormat, be yourself (whatever and whoever that is).

But still, the theory that you are not what others making you out to be only seems to apply to this one iteration of circumstances rather than the previous ones. And unless there is more information given still, it's hard to say what the cause of the problems are.

[kuranes]

I'm a very tall person. I found out from one old boss ( who was very friendly in ALL other respects ) that he didn't like me making statements while standing, because it "appeared" that I was being insubordinate or pushy. He readily admitted that it was silly of him to think this, but that he found himself unconsciously doing it anyway. So, after that, I always sat down before talking, in his office. You're a tall person too. This might apply.

[wildcat]

I'm a very tall person. I found out from one old boss ( who was very friendly in ALL other respects ) that he didn't like me making statements while standing, because it "appeared" that I was being insubordinate or pushy. He readily admitted that it was silly of him to think this, but that he found himself unconsciously doing it anyway. So, after that, I always sat down before talking, in his office. You're a tall person too. This might apply.
Your punishment was that you had to sit down. You were not fired.

[Sally]

She was always buying kitschy little bits and pieces and placing them around the house, which I noticed and admired (not my style, but I understand she was trying to make things seem homey).

When I do this, I sound really, really fake (so I've been told by my INFJ sister). However, I look and act just like an absent-minded student librarian, so I think people figure out that I'm trying to be polite and social without really knowing how, and they don't get offended.

Saying that your an INTP in an ESFJ package might be closer to the center than you think. And the fact that you have honed your politeness without actually being emotionally engaged with other people... I can see how the two together would cause a lot of problems in workplaces with a highly social, interpersonally political atmosphere.

Someone else gave some great advice, I think. Go in the exact opposite direction. I have a friend who once worked nights cleaning up hazardous waste in a medical clinic. It was not the job for her, but she made good money. It might not be the job for you, but something like that... And especially if you're looking for A Job, not The Job. ...Look for something unpopular. And unpopulated.

Oh and especially if you want to save money for a move, which could be good for your job prospects as well. The average clerical position in, for example, the Southern United States probably calls for a lot more Fe than the same job would in New England.

[wildcat]

These posters complain Ella has not given enough information. I do not see much point in such complains. She has given all the information you need. No one has asked you to admit your failure and incompetence. Stop criticising the victim.

[Carebear]

Your punishment was that you had to sit down. You were not fired.

His punishment might eventually have been that he'd be fired if his boss hadn't been more direct and addressed the problem. Not neccesarily directly because of this, but because people would resent the feeling they got more and more, and when people start disliking someone, they soon find reasons why someone should be fired/asked to leave.


These posters complain Ella has not given enough information. I do not see much point in such complains. She has given all the information you need. No one has asked you to admit your failure and incompetence. Stop criticising the victim.

That's just plain wrong. She gave much and good info, but when every possible explanation is met with "I think that's not it, there's something else that's the core of the matter", you get the impression she's keeping something back, else she'd not know our proposed explanations to be wrong. She's got info we don't, stating so is not complaining or critizcising her, simply stating that more info is needed to get any further, and maybe also challenging her to confront some truths she's been avoiding. (Not that she has to pour her heart out here on the forums, but confronting them in her own head at least.)

[INTrPosr]

Everyone slamming Ella for it being her mistake, may be mistaken. After doing government compliance for all those years, 80% of the time, complainants found themselves on the outside of a cliche within an organization. If that group has a supervisor's ear, then you can find yourself quickly out.

I for one, have a strong disdain for petty politics and people who have to morally judge their colleagues behavior. This in itself may seem harmless, however once you are on the bad side of a group or key person, you will find yourself unemployed quickly. Anyone thinking they are impervious to such matters has not spent enough time in the work environment, to be affected yet. All it takes is the reorganizing of management, who has always saved you in the past. You may be completely unaware of everything that has occurred.

[jread]

I've never been fired from a job in my life. I had two part-time jobs in school, one I quit and one where I filled in for a lady on maternity leave. After school, I worked fulltime for the county and was there for 3-years, then I moved to Austin and have worked for the government here for nearly 6-years.

I don't get involved in drama, ever, but I manage to always be the "guy that everyone gets along with". I never make situations difficult and people always get along with me. I just remain highly adaptable to whatever situations I'm put in.

I think my boss wishes I'd "come out of the cave" (my cubicle) more often because he always mentions how he can go a few days and never see me, but he likes that I am not a difficult employee. Most of the others have some personal issues, don't like this or that person, etc.

[Biff_Loman]

complainants found themselves on the outside of a cliche within an organization

That's "clique."

[MaroonBells]

this is quite a situation you are in Ella, with the house and your work in shambles

what i miss in all this are any details about your actual job performance
did you perform, deliver on the tasks set?

[wildcat]

Carebear: That she knows you to be wrong does not imply she is hiding something. Your logic runs backwards.
INTrPOSr: You are absolutely correct. Especially what you said about the reorganizing the management rings true. Here we are at the core of the matter.

[Hypnos]

This is getting nowhere.

The easiest strategy is for everyone to be afraid of you.

[wildcat]

This is getting nowhere.

The easiest strategy is for everyone to be afraid of you.
With the reorganization of the management the cliche assumes new power as the new leadership is in the woods. INTr POSr has the necessary experience and the wisdom to make a judgement. Post 33.

[Ivy]

With the reorganization of the management the cliche assumes new power as the new leadership is in the woods. INTr POSr has the necessary experience and the wisdom to make a judgement. Post 33.

This may be nitpicky, but I've noticed this a couple of times in this thread-- isn't it "clique?" Cliche is another word entirely. Or, perhaps I should say "cliche is another ball of wax." :)

[Zephyrus055]

For some reason my NT/NF professors love me while my SJ schoolmates hate me with intense animosity. Sometimes an ESTP will find me intruiging though.

Not long ago I pissed an ESTJ girl off because I implicitly said that religion and marriage were stupid institutions.

Maybe us INTPs are natural at pissing SJs off? I know that my SJ family members hate me already. My ENTJ mom is the only person protecting me from their terrible wrath. Although, with one exception... my ISFJ sister in law thinks I'm cool, lol.

[wildcat]

This may be nitpicky, but I've noticed this a couple of times in this thread-- isn't it "clique?" Cliche is another word entirely. Or, perhaps I should say "cliche is another ball of wax." :)
It is an onomatopoetic word, from a verb klikken. Klikker is a tell-tale. A company informer, a stabber-in-the-back. Your clique is French. They had those in the good old days in Louisiana.

[Lee]

I've been fired 3 times in 4 years.

[Zephyrus055]

I've been fired 3 times in 4 years.
For what? Pissing SJs off?

[DeadDove]

If I piss off anyone, it's more like to be an "SF" type..."SJ's" I'm fine with as long as they are of the thinking type.

[wildcat]

For some reason my NT/NF professors love me while my SJ schoolmates hate me with intense animosity. Sometimes an ESTP will find me intruiging though.

Not long ago I pissed an ESTJ girl off because I implicitly said that religion and marriage were stupid institutions.

Maybe us INTPs are natural at pissing SJs off? I know that my SJ family members hate me already. My ENTJ mom is the only person protecting me from their terrible wrath. Although, with one exception... my ISFJ sister in law thinks I'm cool, lol.
The riddle is thus resolved.
Heil thee, Imperator.
In thy Empire the sun never sets.
Ella fell prey to an ISTJ cliche lead by an ESTJ klikker: a news-monger, a whisperer, a magpie.

[INTrPosr]

I've made some of the mistakes the author talks about, like trying to stay out of workplace politics ("trying to avoid workplace politics is like trying to avoid the weather. The workplace IS politics," or something to that effect). Fine, but how on earth does someone at my age compete in workplace politics with others who have been honing their political talons for 40 years? You've got to be kidding me. Anyway, these kinds of things are edges, not the meat of the problem. I'm still missing the main part of what's going on.Actually Ella, this would keep you in the job longer, because it will take more time for the people to figure you out. On the contrary, it sounds as though you are getting caught up in the social scene upon becoming employed. Either that, or you are being too opinionated with the wrong people. Most companies complain that they did not become aware of an employee's true nature until after the probationary period has concluded, in particularly if the first month was just observing.


I look like an overgrown cheerleader. I have curly blonde hair, blue eyes, and a babydoll face. Cute when you're three, not so cute when you're 38. I'm an endomorph, so despite my being an athlete, I look round and soft....All that contributes to the problem, but again, these kinds of things are the edges, not the main problem. And I'm not blaming this pattern on appearance; I've changed my appearance and it hasn't broken the pattern, there's much more to it than that. I don't know how to place fault but I'm clearly playing some role in this that I'm not seeing.Okay, if no one else will say it, then I will. Ella you wreak of extroversion, particularly ESF. I can't imagine any introverted female (especially INTP) describing themselves as an "overgrown cheerleader". Sounds like you are attempting to manipulate the group, or you are just that far reversed in your personality. JUST MHO!!

[wildcat]

Someone else is manipulating some other group. Ella has been truthful and she is an INTP. And she is no manipulator. She has never said she is a cheerleader of any kind. She said she LOOKS LIKE a cheerleader. Some people cannot read.
Ella, do not give up.
What do these lads know.

[SensEye]

The thread I started about getting repeatedly fired from jobs didn't survive the crash, so I wasn't able to catch all the responses. If you missed the story before, it's a long-time pattern for me to piss off one person in particular at work, and do so unwittingly, and for no apparent reason (there must be one, thus this thread). The person lets it build and build until they explode at me, then I'm fired within a few days.
I remember your original post where you told the story of your most recent firing. I responded to it but I have no idea if you read my response.

In summary, in your original story as you told it, I said I thought your employer was being completely unreasonable . My only critisism of your behavior was that it seemed to me you did not defend yourself vigorously enough which may have been construed as an admission of guilt regarding your employer's accusations.

Normally, I would just write this off as bad luck getting hired by a bit of a nut case, but you claim this happens repeatedly. That is unusual and I do not believe typical for INTPs in general. I piss people off fairly often with my directness and lack of regard for delicate sensitivities, but its never gotten me fired or even in serious hot water employment wise. I get the feeling we are missing part of the picture here.

[Zephyrus055]

You know those math equations that have a 0 with a line through it for no solution?

[wildcat]

You know those math equations that have a 0 with a line through it for no solution?
Do not be so modest.

[wildcat]

I remember your original post where you told the story of your most recent firing. I responded to it but I have no idea if you read my response.

In summary, in your original story as you told it, I said I thought your employer was being completely unreasonable . My only critisism of your behavior was that it seemed to me you did not defend yourself vigorously enough which may have been construed as an admission of guilt regarding your employer's accusations.

Normally, I would just write this off as bad luck getting hired by a bit of a nut case, but you claim this happens repeatedly. That is unusual and I do not believe typical for INTPs in general. I piss people off fairly often with my directness and lack of regard for delicate sensitivities, but its never gotten me fired or even in serious hot water employment wise. I get the feeling we are missing part of the picture here.
You do not get it, do you?
She was not accused of anything.
When these things happen, there is never the why.
Your insinuations are not exactly helpful.
Do you think her kind of a bright girl could not do an easy job? What is the matter with you people? And it is not exactly fair to accuse the victim.
You claim INTPs are not prone to firing? Have you read the posts in the thread? Have you counted the posters who have been fired without a reason?
And these are the posters who have something to contribute. You other lads.. I hope you will never end up in a jury.
We do not need another Illinois.

[kuranes]

Your punishment was that you had to sit down. You were not fired.

I like Ella. It's nice that you do also, and feel the need to stick up for her, etc. I think you have misunderstood what I'm trying to say here. If my boss had NOT been a friendly person, inclined to confide in me his need ( for me to be at the same eye level when we talk), I might have gotten in trouble without even knowing why. Just because I'm tall. I was suggesting that Ella sit down without being asked to, when she is in the presence of mgt., when possible. This would just be a precaution, and it doesn't require much of a concession. I'm surprised that you didn't catch that.

I've been fired plenty of times. Been on the wrong side of the clicque enough times for it to become a cliche.

[INTrPosr]

Someone else is manipulating some other group. Ella has been truthful and she is an INTP. And she is no manipulator. She has never said she is a cheerleader of any kind. She said she LOOKS LIKE a cheerleader. Some people cannot read. Ella, do not give up. What do these lads know.I know what she said, I would be interested in the number of females at this forum who would even equate themselves to having an appearance of resembling a "cheerleader".

[wildcat]

I like Ella. It's nice that you do also, and feel the need to stick up for her, etc. I think you have misunderstood what I'm trying to say here. If my boss had NOT been a friendly person, inclined to confide in me his need ( for me to be at the same eye level when we talk), I might have gotten in trouble without even knowing why. Just because I'm tall. I was suggesting that Ella sit down without being asked to, when she is in the presence of mgt., when possible. This would just be a precaution, and it doesn't require much of a concession. I'm surprised that you didn't catch that.

I've been fired plenty of times. Been on the wrong side of the clicque enough times for it to become a cliche.
It was certainly not my intention to accuse you of anything. I am sorry if it looked like that. When I said about the other lads.. that I hoped they would not end up in a jury.. I did not mean you at all.. I did not remember at the moment that you had also posted. I meant the guys who post and post and repeat the same insinuation that Ella holds something back. Well she does not.
About the tallness thing: I did understand your point. My counter point was only to point you could not have known for sure if you had been fired, since you were not fired. Hence I said: You were not fired. Maybe my post was a little rash. Again: I did not mean to accuse you in any way and I never felt the need to do so. Since I entered the forum I have seen that you have a balanced view of things. You do not make hasty judgements, and I never thought you were bashing Ella. Your advice was a sound one. I did not point it out as I thought it is self evident anyway. I am sorry about our little misunderstanding.

[Sally]

I know what she said, I would be interested in the number of females at this forum who would even equate themselves to having an appearance of resembling a "cheerleader".

I don't think I look like a cheerleader, but that's because I don't look like a cheerleader. Nor am I some wilting flower with low self-esteem. I know exactly what I look like. I know exactly what my attitude is (at any given time) and how it affects my "attractiveness." I am an INTP. I know myself.

Ella is also an INTP. She self-identifies as an INTP, and she certainly sounds like an INTP to me. Ergo, she knows what she looks like and she knows how she acts. If she says she looks like an overgrown cheerleader, then it takes no great leap of imagination for me to picture Ella, INTP, tall and blonde and blue-eyed endo-mesomorph, who furthermore projects a very outwardly polite yet inwardly aloof attitude.

[wildcat]

I don't think I look like a cheerleader, but that's because I don't look like a cheerleader. Nor am I some wilting flower with low self-esteem. I know exactly what I look like. I know exactly what my attitude is (at any given time) and how it affects my "attractiveness." I am an INTP. I know myself.

Ella is also an INTP. She self-identifies as an INTP, and she certainly sounds like an INTP to me. Ergo, she knows what she looks like and she knows how she acts. If she says she looks like an overgrown cheerleader, then it takes no great leap of imagination for me to picture Ella, INTP, tall and blonde and blue-eyed endo-mesomorph, who furthermore projects a very outwardly polite yet inwardly aloof attitude.
Yes appearances may mislead at the outset, but the truth becomes apparent in no time.
When I was leaving to work in England in 1965, I sat at the airport cafeteria waiting for the plane to arrive. A young ESTJ man, tall and athletic like me, sat down at my table. There were plenty of free tables around. He asked me where I was going to stay, and it appeared both of us actually were heading for the same town. Right there and then he suggested we could share a room or something. He said: "Think it over on the plane. When I saw you I said to myself: This is the guy."
He thought I was another ESTJ. The truth dawned on him during the flight.
He spoke to me only once after the flight, and not kindly.

[Hypnos]

With the reorganization of the management the cliche assumes new power as the new leadership is in the woods. INTr POSr has the necessary experience and the wisdom to make a judgement. Post 33.
In all likelihood, an INTP would be outside the new cliques that form after a shakeup. Changing the company's whole culture is a necessary, tall task.

[Sally]

Yes appearances may mislead at the outset, but the truth becomes apparent in no time.
When I was leaving to work in England in 1965, I sat at the airport cafeteria waiting for the plane to arrive. A young ESTJ man, tall and athletic like me, sat down at my table. There were plenty of free tables around. He asked me where I was going to stay, and it appeared both of us actually were heading for the same town. Right there and then he suggested we could share a room or something. He said: "Think it over on the plane. When I saw you I said to myself: This is the guy."
He thought I was another ESTJ. The truth dawned on him during the flight.
He spoke to me only once after the flight, and not kindly.

Yeah but what if he had had to room with you? The disconnect he felt might fester over time. Not just 'we're not compatible' but 'you aren't who you look like you should be.' I think that that alone might be a large part of what is upsetting to these people, who then take it out on Ella. Especially if coupled with feelings of jealousy, insecurity....

[wildcat]

In all likelihood, an INTP would be outside the new cliques that form after a shakeup. Changing the company's whole culture is a necessary, tall task.
After the shakeup the INTPs and the INTJs find themselves outside the clique and soon enough outside the company. I know an INTJ who was the man who alone made more money for a big company than the others did combined. He was thrown out immediately after the shakeup. His best friend, an INTP, left also. Another INTP committed suicide. The company went under.

[Hypnos]

Again, must instill terror!

[C.J.Woolf]

Let them hate so long as they fear. (Latin: Oderint dum metuant.) -- Lucius Accius

It works great as long as you can keep them fearing you. But you can never let up, because they will always be looking for a way to take you out.

[Claverhouse]

My jobs rarely last a year. This one was six months. My resume looks so awful that I can't even apply to jobs that require one anymore.

There I go too. I usually lie a lot, although it's a criminal offence in Britain to lie on your C.V. ( Hirers, thank God, aren't all conscientious enough to check stuff ).


Some of the INTPs do not seem to understand this thing at all. There are various reasons: they are still at school, they are economically independent or they work in a family enterprise.
They are not on their own, and they do not live in the real world.

Yes.


She said she LOOKS LIKE a cheerleader. Some people cannot read.

Yes.


Stop criticising the victim.

wildcat, surely you have learnt that it is always the victim who is to blame ?
Same as for raped women or a raped environment or people beaten up in jail. No-one likes a loser. They are bad luck as well. A memento mori to the unsuccessful themselves, and non-achievers to those who value their own self-merited success.

Even in history, it is the winners such as Alexander, Henry V or VIII of England, Napoleone, Stalin who are praised, even if their rotten legacies crumbled on their death-beds; not the truly great defeated, such as Charles I of England, Wilhelm II, or the last of the Hohenstauffen. Being defeated makes them despicable.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[wildcat]

Yeah but what if he had had to room with you? The disconnect he felt might fester over time. Not just 'we're not compatible' but 'you aren't who you look like you should be.' I think that that alone might be a large part of what is upsetting to these people, who then take it out on Ella. Especially if coupled with feelings of jealousy, insecurity....
How right you are. The diconnecting, in the case of Ella, became a rankling sore.
I have seen it happen over and over again. The ESTJs and the ESFJs cannot even bear to look at you. Sometimes they close their eyes and wish you are not there. In the conference rooms they change their position so that they do not need to look directly at you. It is something strange.

[Zephyrus055]

Napoleon lost, but even on St.Helena then the SJ nobility feared him, perhaps too much. The British demonized him as a devil incarnate, although the French hailed him as a demi-god.

[SensEye]

You do not get it, do you?
She was not accused of anything. I believe she was in this instance. I do not believe she was guilty. I believe because she didn't stand up for herself, she may have appeared guilty. Again, I am going on what I recall Ella relating, only she really knows what went on. My advice here (which seems to be too subtle for you to notice wildcat) is that Ella may need to stand up for herself more.


When these things happen, there is never the why.
Which is why I said I thought her employer was a bit of a nut case in the example she related. But am I to believe every employer where she has been fired just happens to be irrational? In that case my advice is to be more selective in what jobs she accepts.


Your insinuations are not exactly helpful. Do you know Ella? Why are you being so defensive? I did not insinuate it was her fault just that it is unusual if 'unjust' dismissal is a trend. I stand by my position that it is not common to just get fired for no particular reason. What would NOT be helpful, is for me to say it happens all the time when, in fact, it doesn't. Then she will not address whatever it is that is the real issue.


And it is not exactly fair to accuse the victim.
You claim INTPs are not prone to firing? Have you read the posts in the thread? Have you counted the posters who have been fired without a reason? Most posters seem to be saying they have not been fired period, much less without reason.

[wildcat]

In Finland it is allowed and even encouraged (by the authorities) to lie on your curriculum as much as you possibly can muster, but now the employers are well aware of the ploy and the thing has become a meaningless piece of garbage.
I have to ask more pills from my physician, Claverhouse, because on account of a benighted genetic morbidity and an apparent weakness of character I may still side with the bad omen. Men like Mannerheim who was kicked out of school and lost all his battles, or Gorbatchov, the only decent communist in world history, who had the temperance to let the monster die. Or so he thought. But the world will go on and the victors will win glorious battles in the near future. Or so they think.

[Claverhouse]

Napoleon lost, but even on St.Helena then the SJ nobility feared him, perhaps too much.

An entire class of people can't be typed --- not that the French nobility had much power after the 2nd Restoration, and serve them right for fostering the Great Revolution in the first place --- nonetheless he is still perceived as a winner because of his tremendous military skills and his greed. Actually he was just another genius war-lord who got lucky.


The British demonized him as a devil incarnate, although the French hailed him as a demi-god.

No, the rehabilation of Napoleon began almost instantly in Britain, one of his enemies; just as the rehabilation of Hitler has begun in Russia. Certainly the common people believed he was an ogre then and for 50 years, 'eating babies' due to British propaganda; just as the common people believed the most ridiculous accusations against Hitler, another war-lord, due to propaganda.

Most of the French rather disliked Napoleon during his insensate war-mongering rule and afterwards; and would have preferred the First Republic, or the Monarchy, a duller Empire such as his nephew's or the bourgeous republic they eventually got. The romantic appeal was fostered long after his death for various reasons, particularly around the 1890s: during his life the 'Cult' was restricted to his old soldiers, just as the SS veterans provided the only real admiration for Hitler for the half-century after WWII: in both cases their marshals, who knew them best, had very little respect or admiration.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Jezebel]

Hi Ella. I'm sorry to hear about your misfortune with your jobs. I can relate to your posts somewhat, since I recently had problems at work and almost got fired in a similar way.

I never had problems with work before, but at this place I just wasn't fitting in with my department. In my job dialogue, my manager said that I worked hard but sometimes that just isn't enough. She said that the department was kind of like a clique and they didn't understand me. I was offered a position in another department that I had no interest in. I refused the offer. After this conversation, I started getting write ups that were more like nitpicking and inaccurate. I never goofed off at work or really did everything they said I did so I never saw them coming. While most of my team was becoming more open to me, there was one girl in particular who was very unapproachable and rude to me but I never understood why. All of my write ups happened when I was working shifts with her based on information she gave the manager. I was on my last write up before getting fired when she was very nasty toward me again for no apparent reason. This time I went to my manager before she did. I told the manager that I felt a lot of tension when I worked with this girl and I didn't know why. I told her that I had tried to talk to my coworker about it but she had made herself unapproachable toward me and would even walk away from me when I was talking to her. I didn't whine or blame her for any of my troubles on the job, instead sticking to the "I like it here and just want to make the team stronger" bit. This way if my coworker went to my manager again about me, it looks more like a personality conflict that I'm trying to fix and she isn't. After this my situation in the department improved fast and I didn't feel worried about losing my job over something I couldn't control. I even got a promotion in a new (and better) department soon afterwards.

If you're trying to prevent this from happening again, maybe try this. After you become settled into your job go to your manager and ask how you are doing and if there is anything you can improve. I wouldn't wait for the official performance review to come around since you have had problems early on at multiple jobs. Let them know you like your job and want to do you best. Any decent manager should let you know if you aren't fitting in, your work or productivity aren't up to par, or whatever the problem may be. You don't have to be best friends with your coworkers, but make sure you are communicating with them. If someone unfairly explodes at you and you don't understand why, see if you can talk to them about it after they calm down. Be friendly, let them know you want to improve relations with them (even if you know they're unreasonable assholes). If that doesn't work or if you feel they aren't straightfoward with you, then go to a manager. Be careful because the manager might be on their side. Always make it seem like you like everyone and want them to like you instead of coming across as someone who is trying to get people in trouble. And always go to management as a last resort, but NEVER let a coworker explode at you without resolving it. It probably won't get better on its own.

If you're concerned about having a poor work history, try a functional resume. It puts the emphasis on your skills and not how long you lasted at your jobs. I have a crappy work history with a string of jobs that lasted 6 months or less and a couple periods of unemployment. I only listed my last two jobs at the very bottom and didn't mention periods of unemployment, and I got the interview and got the job.

Good luck!

[Serotonin]

Jezebel you've been gone a while haven't you?

I always seem to be online when the ol-timers come back. Melody, Sally, and now you.

[MacGuffin]

HOLY FUCK! IT'S JEZ!

[Jezebel]

Jezebel you've been gone a while haven't you?

I always seem to be online when the ol-timers come back. Melody, Sally, and now you.

That it has. Almost looks like a different forum now.

[Ella]

Wow, I should have checked on this thead sooner! I don't feel persecuted in any way by the responses. I asked for feedback and I got it - thank you. I'd comment on it all but I've had enough of life lately so I'm heading out for a brief vacation; I'll add my comments when I get back. (If anyone would like a post card from Disneyland, quickly PM me your snailmail address.) :)

[pietertje]

Disneyland .....The Mekka of America!

The dream of every child in (wo)man's clothes.:shock:
Please sent me a postcard ...I beg you.

[Melody]

why jezebel thats a sexy avatar u have there

[God]

I took my vacation the week before last. I was literally gone for one day when my co-worker (ENFP) went off on a female security guard. I believed it was justified since I had witnessed her provoking him for weeks.

Several of us filed complaints on the officer and she was moved, but not fired. My co-worker was however fired after investigation and my vacation was cut short.

Had I been in his shoes, or even there, It would've been alot more ugly.

The amount I can take before exploding is considerabley less than most people, and once I go off.. I go all the way off, but I usually quit first.

It seems to me like INTPs would be more likely to quit, then get fired.

[Zephyrus055]

God actually works, has a temper and is afraid of security guards? Wow!

[Hypnos]

God actually works, has a temper and is afraid of security guards? Wow!
What if God was one of us?

[MacGuffin]

What if God was one of us?
Can God commit suicide?

[wildcat]

I believe she was in this instance. I do not believe she was guilty. I believe because she didn't stand up for herself, she may have appeared guilty. Again, I am going on what I recall Ella relating, only she really knows what went on. My advice here (which seems to be too subtle for you to notice wildcat) is that Ella may need to stand up for herself more.
Which is why I said I thought her employer was a bit of a nut case in the example she related. But am I to believe every employer where she has been fired just happens to be irrational? In that case my advice is to be more selective in what jobs she accepts.
Do you know Ella? Why are you being so defensive? I did not insinuate it was her fault just that it is unusual if 'unjust' dismissal is a trend. I stand by my position that it is not common to just get fired for no particular reason. What would NOT be helpful, is for me to say it happens all the time when, in fact, it doesn't. Then she will not address whatever it is that is the real issue.
Most posters seem to be saying they have not been fired period, much less without reason.
It is not common to be fired for no particular reason, as you say. Some other people insinuate she should have been pretending to be a person she is not.

They say America is a free country. But not so free that one can be what one is without being fired. Not that other countries are any better.
Even if we accepted conformism to be a morally acceptable way out of the dilemma, the sad fact is that it does not work.
Even if it worked, it would make you physically ill. To get ill because the work place atmosphere is bad is the leading cause for an early retirement age (sick leave). The environment is bad because the others do not accept your pretense and your smiling. They see through you. They know you are not one of them.
You who have this problem should study the work legislature in America- the difference in the legal position of the employee in different states. If New England is the best in this regard, go to New England. I also suspect that the big cities (esp. NYC) are far better and more tolerant toward people with outsider mentality.

[Carebear]

Can God commit suicide?

Not without going to hell... unless he pardons himself that is.

But apart from that, yes, I think he can commit suicide. He's commited genocide on several occations so why not suicide? In fact I believe that dictators get the Powerword: Genocide on lvl 18 and Powerword: Suicide at lvl 20. Just look at Hitler. Once he became a lvl 20 dictator, he just couldn't resist trying out his newly gained spell. (Source: Advanced Bungholes and Despots, 2nd Edition, Game Masters Manual)

[Zerikin Loukbel]

Stinks to get fired like that, crazy world we live in. I got in trouble at my current job with one of the other employes for some percieved something or other towards them. I had no idea the person had even been bothered, let alone enough to take it up the management *rolleyes*. I am completely oblivious to the politicing and socialing stuff that goes on around me. I just do my thing and let the world go by.

[Ella]

Thanks for all the suggestions. There are two things I'll do differently if/when there's a next time. I'll check in with my employer at least several months into the job; not often, otherwise it'll look like I'm looking for or expect trouble, but a casual checking-in now and then sounds like a good plan for squelching any building problems. Also, no more private confrontations! I think people like this really go off when they know that no one else is around to witness it. Bah. If anyone broaches one of these conversations with me in the future, I'll politely but firmly decline until we can get someone in the room with us (preferably THEIR boss).

I finished reading "Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office," by Frankel. I'm adding it to my INTP must-read list, it has a lot of good information and 95% applies to everyone, not just women. Sometimes it's too general and sometimes she refers you to other books, but I still recommend it. One real problem with it is it's pretty far removed from INTPness, so how on earth could anyone remember all that stuff?! I'd have to walk around studying the book like a bible (yeah, that'll score me points in the workplace).

To answer the questions about my disabilities, I have a spinal deformity from a car accident eight years ago. My thoracic spine is twisted in a way similar to scoliosis and causes a number of secondary problems. Mainly these are bilateral biceps tendon impingement (painful and limited range of motion in my arms and shoulders), cervical spine is in kyphosis (it curves the opposite of how it should, very painful because disks bulge and push on nerves), lots of back pain, and thoracic outlet syndrome. The thoracic outlet is the space in your shoulder through which the nerve and blood supply to your hands and arms go. I have some specific weaknessness in my hands and arms, and they don't always do what I tell them, particularly with certain kinds of fine motor movement (it might take me several tries to pick up a piece of paper, for example). None of this is apparent just by looking at or being around me, though, other than the lack of hand control and strength just seeming like general incompetency or buffoonery, which I hate. This is probably more information than you wanted to know, but there you go.

I'm doing better, anyway. Four days at Disneyland cures just about anything. :)

[MacGuffin]

The rides at Disneyland don't irritate your back?

[Ella]

Nope. Rides at Disneyland are tame, as far as amusement park rides go. IJA is the only one that knocks you around much. I have trouble staying on my feet that long so I usually take Tramadol while I'm there, which would alleviate any back pain, anyway. It's a small price to pay for what the park offers an INTP.

[INTrPosr]

I wrote a small treatise on employment process, but lost it when having to go to another screen for work purposes.

The entire process of employing is negative, and particularly not conducive to such types as INTP. When hiring, recruiters do not consider why they should hire, but why they should not. The candidate with the least reasons for not being hired, will be employed. But even before that process, making application is a negative process (i.e., minimum qualifications must be met to even be considered), background checks, etc.

During probationary periods, unless you stand out, the entire period will be one of close scrutiny. Management and the current employees are not determining your unique skills and ability. Instead they are determining whether you fit in (think they just made up the phrase, not what you know but who you know?). Also for dominant introverted types, the company will never know what you are capable of.

Even when being up for annual reviews, management has been trained that no employee can be perfect. Therefore, they are told not to give perfect evaluations. I think that INTs (assuming that you believe Keirsey) may have the greatest affinity in handling Corporate America (a SJ thing). Also, I think that NTPs can have an arduous time, when the rules and regulations become too rigid. Guess the behavior of which type would be least welcomed? Not to say this is typical, but the odds are going to be less in INTP's favor, unless you find work that fits your personality traits, i.e., little interaction with handling people problems, not consistently being under the gun to produce (although I think this may be more stereotype), not being subject to micro-management (or as someone from my training called it being "bird dogged".

[Ella]

Management and the current employees are not determining your unique skills and ability. Instead they are determining whether you fit in

YES. Good grief, I wish they'd tell you stuff like this in those university career workshops for graduating seniors. I can figure out how to write an excellent resume on my own, what I need is info like above! It's true, and it's what you need to keep in mind when approaching a new job, especially in the corporate world. I hope I hope I hope it isn't the same in grad school or I'm dead.

Just to turn this into a full-blown rant: I hate those "reviews." We're not in kindergarten, for cryin' out loud. Do you want to safety pin a note to my shirt to take home to mommy, too? I understand the legal covering-their-hinders aspect of it, but they're wildly misused and you can't really address anything in them; if you do you end up looking defensive, immature and/or incapable. When I was a business owner I never pulled crap like that (I only had one employee, but still). </rant>

Once in college I read an obit on a bulletin board outside a professor's door. It was for a mathematician (not at that college). There was a photo of him with the obit. He was a short, scrawny, coke-bottle-glasses, very unappealing little man who had never married and had no kids and frankly looked like he had a social skills of a potato. But the obit was amazing. He was respected and admired in his field. Peer after peer was quoted praising his math, calling his proofs artistic and incredibly beautiful. No one expected that little man to socialize or wear heels or make coffee or listen to his coworkers go on and on about their mortgages/marriages/cars or dress like his boss or participate in a certain way at meetings. He was simply brilliant at his math, and that was all that mattered and he was recognized and valued for it. I walked away in awe. That is what life should be about.

I have no idea how to make that happen for me but I have never, ever forgotten that mathematician's obituary.

[sbw]

I've been fired plenty of times. Been on the wrong side of the clicque enough times for it to become a cliche.

hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Scott

[sbw]

Yeah but what if he had had to room with you? The disconnect he felt might fester over time. Not just 'we're not compatible' but 'you aren't who you look like you should be.' I think that that alone might be a large part of what is upsetting to these people, who then take it out on Ella. Especially if coupled with feelings of jealousy, insecurity....

jealousy and insecurity are rampant amongst the unconsciously miserable peons who populate most work environments. I think I recommended getting the fuck away from conventional work environments early on in this thread.

also, extraverts--even smart ones--need what is to me a somewhat embarrassing amount of attention. in the past, when I've ignored my roommates for some length of time (just cuz I was doing or thinking about something else), they seem to make up excuses to justify their consequent anger. I honestly believe that they don't know why they are upset, yet still need to vent--especially extraverted F's (and I've lived with at least 4 of them).

Scott

[Mountain_Recluse]

Ella,
At just over age fifty I too am finding it harder to get a job, let alone keep one. This worries me to no end. I'm too far from "retirement age" and my poor income history won't net me much in social security. I've never made enough to own a home and thus rent will always be a burden.

I too have a long history of getting fired and a resume would look terrible. I suspect that many times a major factor was that I was doing too much, going above and beyond what the job entailed, in other words, thinking for myself and innovating. I did this in order to excel and thus keep a job. This, I have learned far too late, is typical of INTP's. When I saw something that needed done or could be improved I often just did it. Being good at the job, the technical skill part of it, apparently often makes it harder to keep the job. Far too late I have realized this intimidates most co-workers and employers.

As kuranes described, your being a tall, attractive, intelligent, competent woman would, I'm afraid, be intimidating to both males and females. For us guys, being tall, intelligent, and innovative may intimidate many female bosses -- especially if they think the guy wants their job. Thus their defense is a good offense -- and that means firing us if they fear that we are a threat.

In my most recent job (a 911 dispatcher) I was often asked by my boss "What are you thinking?". Too much thinking was apparently detrimental to the job, and to keeping the job. Often it was said by her and some others "You think too much." Being able to think, being much more intelligent than those we are working with, or for, intimidates them. Even knowing this, we often can't hide our intelligence and NT'ness. It just shows by how we apply ourselves, how we learn and seek more to learn, and how we find solutions to problems -- often problems that others didn't even realize were there, or that they were ignoring, or denying, or that they thought couldn't be solved. We just solve many problems without, it may seem to them, working hard -- and that is intimidating to many others. Maybe we try too hard -- which is not accepted by many people in many workplaces.

To keep from getting fired, again, I've tried to be competent and not give the employer a reason to doubt my abilities. Apparently a drawback to that strategy is that I may not have seemed as "human" and as fallible as other expect people to be. That I covered up my insecurities and concerns under the usual introverted mask just added to the unknown about me -- and people fear the unknown.

I am very hard to get to know. I don't brag, I don't complain (much), I don't chat in the office or workplace circle. I avoid workplace politics, and for good reason, but that also, I now realize from other posts here, puts people like us on the outside. There must be a knack to playing with the workplace politics enough to be part of the family but not in such a way as to get burned or fired.

I believe that my last boss and her behind the scenes ally were more intimidated by me than they would admit. At least I did ask my future boss in my interview if she was intimidated by what was in my application packet (I put the whole works in there because I needed that job). She said "yes", but that "she knew me" (she also stressed that the department was a "family"). Yeah, right. Not only was it a very hard "family" to become accepted by, I think that feeling of intimidation only worsened. She made, I see in hindsight, lots of overt attempts to chop me down, to break me, to possibly make me quit. That job was the hardest job I've ever had to learn. It intimidated me at first and it never got "easy" to do. Some of the officers and firefighters that I worked with later expressed that I was the best they had -- and that, if they expressed it before I got fired, no doubt got back to the boss and some others of my coworkers -- and was intimidating to them because I was handling stuff better in one year than they were doing after many years.

Those who are intimidated by us won't admit it openly but, I see now, they will let it create a festering anger or fear (two sides of the same coin). Eventually they will deal with the source of the threat -- and either fire us or get us fired if they can't make us quit (that they can't break us only adds to their resolve). They may not say why, and they don't have to if we are "employed at will". Yet they can find other excuses -- one of those is that paper trail of evaluations. That may be why our evaluations may always have significant faults -- they need those in there "just in case" they are needed someday to justify a firing.

At least I never got married and had a family to support during all this. But not having a family also makes us "different". Being the usual INTP hard-to-get-to-know only makes the situation worse. We don't share the experiences of kids, grandkids, etc. We don't easily fit in and are hard to make "part of the family." Some of my coworkers barely acknowledged my existence. Early on I mentioned that to my boss. She said that some were reluctant to accept people until they feel that the new person will be around for a long time. That coldness or reluctance to accept just makes it harder to "be part of the family." Ironically, all their talk of me "being a member of the family" didn't help much when they decided to fire me. After just over one year on the job, I guess I never really became "part of the family" as far as the powers were concerned.

[Melody]

valuable information

[Ella]

Ugh, what a trying series of situations, Mountain_Recluse. I'm also thankful I haven't had a family to support through all this.

We're so ill-suited to the corporate world, have you considered going back to school? That's what's next for me (after I get this book done). I think I've done the best I could in the workworld and I think (hope/wish/pray) that academia will be more tolerant of our type.