Hidden Agenda

[waxwing]

The following type discussion is based on socionics theory, not MBTI.

Type and the hidden agenda http://www.socionics.com/advan/common/graph/ganin.jpg
by Sergei Ganin

Every person has a hidden agenda. This agenda often governs one's intentions and behaviour. People are often unaware of its origin, but can always feel its significance. Some people are more affected by it than other people. Every type requires an optimal condition in which it can function properly. If such a condition does not exist, a person will normally attempt to create it. However, due to the nature of the hidden agenda, if and when the optimal condition is reached, the person will occasionally put themselves in a situation where the stability of this condition is threatened.

There are eight such agendas/optimal conditions:

ENTp, ESTp => to be loved
INTj, INFj => to be healthy
ESFj, ESTj => to be perfect
ISFp, INFp => to understand
ENFj, ENTj => to be wealthy
ISTj, ISFj => to believe
ESFp, ENFp => to know
INTp, ISTp => to love

The ability to recognise these hidden agendas in people is quite helpful in type identification. Moreover, these agendas are also directly connected with some personal problems an individual might have.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

So, what is your hidden agenda?

Mine is definitely related to love, and for awhile I could not tell if mine was "to love" (INTp) or "to be loved" (ENTp). I know that one of my greatest fears is not being capable of loving a person, but then I'm pretty sure I fear that because I'm even more afraid of never truly being loved, and as a result, never learning how to love well. Sort of becomes a complicated question at that point. Do I need to be loved as an end in itself, or is it more important that I am loved in order to love?

I'll go with "to be loved," as I've given this a lot of thought and believe many of my dreams, fears, and secrets relate to this need. Everybody here has probably heard me talk about my inability to sustain intimacy; again, I think this problem is related to my hidden agenda. In addition, when I am sensitive to criticism (but don't admit it), I often think my covert feelings are related to needing to be loved, and thinking I am not.

[Nemesis]

To be wealthy? :blink: Hmm, well I guess I can see that

[Master O]

to have everyone accept that everything will be my way and that i was right all along.

if i never hear my mother say another thing for the rest of my life besides, "You were right", that will be perfectly fine with me; not because i need her approval, but because it would kill her to have to admit she didn't know a GD thing about me or the "right" way to live life. And that everything she thought to be essential was completely rooted in fear and not rationality.

[Kljoki]

To be wealthy? :blink: Hmm, well I guess I can see that
Not exactly wealthy, but rather powerful, influential. Se is a function of power, dominance according to socionics.

Function descriptions - http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic-2477-0.html

Well, theoretically, one cannot see ones hidden agenda. It falls in the subconscious part of psyche (http://socion.info/cgi-bin/index.cgi?loc=desc&model=1). That's why it's called hidden. But I think that's wrong. Mainly because I've been aware of mine since early childhood. It's pretty hard to miss actually. The shear obsession with intellect. IxFp pretty much make almost all of pseudo and wanna be intellectuals.

EDIT: Your hidden agenda is something you wish you had as strong but never will nor can.
According to theory that is.

[waxwing]

Not exactly wealthy, but rather powerful, influential. Se is a function of power, dominance according to socionics.

Function descriptions - http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic-2477-0.html

Well, theoretically, one cannot see ones hidden agenda. It falls in the subconscious part of psyche (http://socion.info/cgi-bin/index.cgi?loc=desc&model=1). That's why it's called hidden. But I think that's wrong. Mainly because I've been aware of mine since early childhood. It's pretty hard to miss actually. The shear obsession with intellect. IxFp pretty much make almost all of pseudo and wanna be intellectuals.

EDIT: Your hidden agenda is something you wish you had as strong but never will nor can.
According to theory that is.
Hmm, I've been wondering about what you said -- can we be aware of hidden agenda or not?

I hardly ever admit to wanting to be loved as I fear that comes across as being needy or mushy, but I still am aware of it in myself. Is that similar in your case? Is it rare for you to admit what you just said about your obsession with intellect? If this is not my hidden agenda, then how might you explain what it is?

For me, there's a definite push/pull between wanting to be loved and needing to be independent. I allow my need for independence to show on the outside, but my need to be loved stays hidden. I'm guessing it stays hidden because I would feel too easily wounded and out of control otherwise.

[mr. treat]

i would say that my 'hidden agenda' is definitely related to my emotions. if not strictly love, then more precisely with allowing myself to openly feel and express such things without the fear of being rejected or hurt. i find myself drawn towards wanting to share how i feel with another and having those feelings reciprocated, which could be called love i suppose, yet at the same time being afraid to allow myself to give in to such a 'weakness'.

i cannot say whether or not having those conditions would lead me to put them in jeopardy, because i have a very limited and jaded experience with them.

[Kljoki]

I was not aware of my hidden agenda until I learned what it was and recognized certain behavioral pattern that fit the bill. I guess it is the same as what you described. I'm very unconfident in it but never show it. I think I would just die if somebody "exposed" me so I always second doubt myself and am a little too willing to accept advice from others on the subject. This way I get the illusion of being "strong" in the area.


I hardly ever admit to wanting to be loved as I fear that comes across as being needy or mushy, but I stil am aware of it in myself. Is that similar in your case? Is it rare for you to admit what you just said about your obsession with intellect? If this is not my hidden agenda, then how might you explain what it is? I would never admit to my obsession, mainly because I fear criticism. I fear others will call me "lacking" where I clearly do not want to be seen as lacking. Similar to how you do not want to be seen "mushy" or "needy" but still require engagement of Fe.
I think that is the sign of hidden agenda, where one wants it but is not confident in it.
For instance, I want Fe, but am uberconfident in it. That rules out Fe as my hidden agenda.

[Nemesis]

Not exactly wealthy, but rather powerful, influential.
okay, that sounds more like me now :D

[Kljoki]

i would say that my 'hidden agenda' is definitely related to my emotions. if not strictly love, then more precisely with allowing myself to openly feel and express such things without the fear of being rejected or hurt. i find myself drawn towards wanting to share how i feel with another and having those feelings reciprocated, which could be called love i suppose, yet at the same time being afraid to allow myself to give in to such a 'weakness'.

i cannot say whether or not having those conditions would lead me to put them in jeopardy, because i have a very limited and jaded experience with them.
So that would make you a xxTp. Try reading the function in the link I posted. That could help.

[attila_the_hunny]

Mine is definitely related to love, and for awhile I could not tell if mine was "to love" (INTp) or "to be loved" (ENTp). I know that one of my greatest fears is not being capable of loving a person, but then I'm pretty sure I fear that because I'm even more afraid of never truly being loved, and as a result, never learning how to love well. Sort of becomes a complicated question at that point. Do I need to be loved as an end in itself, or is it more important that I am loved in order to love?


I could have written that.

It is more important that I am loved in order to love because I will kill any feelings on my part that are only one-sided. Even when they are reciprocated, I still have a desire to kill them. When I can't, it will only ignite my passion.
Hate and love are very closely related to me, for some reason. To feel one, I have to feel the other.

[pavel_lishin]

I think mine's to be loved, which is confusing.

[mr. treat]

So that would make you a xxTp. Try reading the function in the link I posted. That could help.

it is funny that you say that, because i test as intj with both mbti and socionics, so i am somewhat lost in the middle so to speak.

[Kljoki]

it is funny that you say that, because i test as intj with both mbti and socionics, so i am somewhat lost in the middle so to speak. That was not a Si hidden agenda you described there.

EDIT: but then again I'm not skilled enough to make a function easement of you so you very well could be an INTj.

EDIT2: You definitely don't strike me as logical subtype INTj. They frighten me. For some reason I find them really, really scary. Like a kid being afraid of strangers.

[Crazy]

I think mine is to love. I'm often held back because of fear of being used. Unrequited love is also something that makes me reluctant.

[mr. treat]

That was not a Si hidden agenda you described there.

EDIT: but then again I'm not skilled enough to make a function easement of you so you very well could be an INTj.

EDIT2: You definitely don't strike me as logical subtype INTj. They frighten me. For some reason I find them really, really scary. Like a kid being afraid of strangers.

i test that way, but i have my suspicious that neither test is infallible. to be honest i don't know as much about socionics as mbti, so i will read up on it before i make any further judgment.

[ApeTheDog]

I've figured out what the 'to love' bit means for me personally. I feel unhappy unless I'm around people, or things, that I love. I won't work to my full abilities, usually (as in it takes me an effort, and annoys me) unless it happens to be for a cause/person that I really love. And then it costs me no effort at all. If I love someone, something, anything - an idea - then the energy flows out of my like a river. If I'm not enthusiastic about an idea, I'm unmotivated, and things are a lot harder for me. I can still accomplish things, but it doesn't come naturally.

In a job, if I don't love what I do, I'll not enjoy it. I'm primarily motivated by love. Not money. Not fame. Not being loved. I need to love the subject before I'll kick into action. That's what I think it means for me.

[Star]

ISFp, INFp => to understand

I'd say that's me, except it's more, or as much .. to be understood.

That makes me MBTI INFJ? :Hmm:

[Nadiar]

I can't remember how all of the introverted/extroverted Feeling/Thinking/Intuition/Sensing works off of the top of my head. Isn't this just assuming that we automatically just want something primarily related to our weakest attribute?

INTp, ISTp: Weakest is Fe, suggesting that the one thing we want is to be better with our emotions.
ISTj, ISFj: Weakest is Ne, suggesting that they have trouble just leaping to a conclusion and believing in it.

INTj, INFj => Se
ISFp, INFp => Te
iSTj, ISFj => Ne
INTp, ISTp => Fe

Those I know.

<researching how it works for E's>

Okay, so he's using the Tertiary results for E's. No idea why, maybe he didn't like the conclusions he was coming to and changed it.

Final results for this table:
ENTp, ESTp => Fe => to be loved
INTj, INFj => Se => to be healthy
ESFj, ESTj => Ne => to be perfect
ISFp, INFp => Te => to understand
ENFj, ENTj => Se => to be wealthy
ISTj, ISFj => Ne => to believe
ESFp, ENFp => Te => to know
INTp, ISTp => Fe => to love

Maybe he explains it better in detail elsewhere, but going from the OP, it really looks like he's just retrofitting a concept into MBTI, and running with it.

[philonightmare]

ENTp, ESTp => to be loved

That does fit. I always doubt another's feelings for me, leading to insecurities, which leads to my killing off my feelings so that I don't have to deal with loving someone. I guess that could be interpreted as selfish behavior but I really am phobic about having too strong of feelings for people I consider "potential mates".

It's weird and twisted, I know, but the more I feel for a "Potential", the more I try to back away and sort of test that person (and myself) to see if my distancing myself will cause them to love me the same amount as before or less. And if less, it becomes. . . validation of sorts that I made the right choice to distance my love for that person because "Look! He doesn't love you after all!"

I think that's why so many of my relationships don't work out or go to the next level because I'm afraid of not being loved back.

[waxwing]

That does fit. I always doubt another's feelings for me, leading to insecurities, which leads to my killing off my feelings so that I don't have to deal with loving someone. I guess that could be interpreted as selfish behavior but I really am phobic about having too strong of feelings for people I consider "potential mates".
It's rare to find someone with equal capacity for loving, and someone with an understanding for why a person might hold it back or back away out of fear. I have almost always backed away when I've felt deeply for someone. When I haven't, I've felt foolish and hurt. Most of the time, I get over people very easily because I create the distance that actually makes a person not actively love me.



It's weird and twisted, I know, but the more I feel for a "Potential", the more I try to back away and sort of test that person (and myself) to see if my distancing myself will cause them to love me the same amount as before or less. And if less, it becomes. . . validation of sorts that I made the right choice to distance my love for that person because "Look! He doesn't love you after all!"
May be weird, but I definitely do something similar, most of the time so naturally so as not to be intentionally manipulative. I'm guessing this is where the subconsious hidden agenda part comes in to play. I've always had serious problems in the area of relationships. Sometimes people think I just don't care. What they don't know is that usually I care too much, and I simply know that my love cannot possibly be returned.



I think that's why so many of my relationships don't work out or go to the next level because I'm afraid of not being loved back.
*nods*

[franzgold]

THis thread seems like a confirmation bias fest to me. "I think this is my type, so I'll look for things that confirm this as my hidden agenda." Not to mention the people who appear to think that MBTI XXXP is the same as socionics XXXp.


ISFp, INFp => to understand

I'd say that's me, except it's more, or as much .. to be understood.

That makes me MBTI INFJ? :Hmm:
Hah, I told you!

I can't seem to find it now but there was some INFJ type description that listed "A need to be understood" as a typical INFJ attribute. It really resonated with me as something that I have always desired but not really consciously realized until then.

[waxwing]

THis thread seems like a confirmation bias fest to me. "I think this is my type, so I'll look for things that confirm this as my hidden agenda." Not to mention the people who appear to think that MBTI XXXP is the same as socionics XXXp.

Hah, I told you!

I disagree. There is no harm in discussing people's hidden agendas in an exploratory fashion. Besides, if people want to study socionics, they can do so. No need to be bitter.

That said, it is not necessarily the case that an MBTI INFP will be a socionics INFj or even INFp. In my case, I haven't committed to saying I'm MBTI ENTP because it doesn't quite fit, but I am definitely a socionics ENTp. The two theories shouldn't be stacked up against each other.

[Snowflake]

Is anyone forgetting that MBTI type INTP corrolates to Socionics INTj?

[waxwing]

Is anyone forgetting that MBTI type INTP corrolates to Socionics INTj?

Not necessarily.

[ApeTheDog]

I have many hidden agendas. I always lost them in school and never bothered to look for them again after an initial two/three hour search.

I really do feel that love is my prime motivator for every single thing that I do, socionics or not, because I simply can't get motivated if I don't love something. It is not just about relationships. Love is a broad concept.

[Eileen]

INTj, INFj => to be healthy


I'm curious to know how this shows itself in INT/INFjs.

[Kljoki]

I'm curious to know how this shows itself in INT/INFjs.
From here - http://www.socion.info/hiddenagendasecret.html

http://socion.info/testpics/Si.gif (Si) Agenda - an observer says, "Boy, he is so PASSIVE! Atleast he is neat, clean, and takes care of his surroundings! "

[Kljoki]

From here - http://www.socion.info/hiddenagendasecret.html

I'll post them all.

How the Hidden Agenda is potentially perceived by others:

http://socion.info/testpics/Fe.gif (Fe) Agenda - an observer says, "Can you believe this guy? He acts friendly, then blow me off! What a weirdo!"

http://socion.info/testpics/Si.gif (Si) Agenda - an observer says, "Boy, he is so PASSIVE! Atleast he is neat, clean, and takes care of his surroundings! "

http://socion.info/testpics/Ne.gif (Ne) Agenda - an observer says, "This guy on is on the ball, but somethings I think he tries WAY too hard at times ..."

http://socion.info/testpics/Ti.gif (Ti) Agenda - an observer says, "What is with this guy? He talks and debates over so many nonsensical things, so irritating!"

http://socion.info/testpics/Se.gif (Se) Agenda - an observer says, "Who does he think he is? These things do not belong specifically to him! Stupid Jerk!"

http://socion.info/testpics/Ni.gif (Ni) Agenda - an observer says, "For being such an annoying and overbearing prick, he can sure save for the longterm!"

http://socion.info/testpics/Te.gif (Te) Agenda - an observer says, "What? You do not like me that much? But you seemed so interested in talking to me!"

http://socion.info/testpics/Fi.gif (Fi) Agenda - an observer says, "Boy this guy is a drag, he makes a better pet than he would a person ... Poor guy!"

[Ka.avik]

I've heard both the T agenda-observer's comments multiple times, and somewhat rarely the Fe-comment.

I usually test as INTp, but if I were to try to guess at what thing I dare not let myself acknowledge is utterly true of myself, I couldn't tell you if it was to admit that I cared, or that others might care for me; ... but really? It's far more likely that it would be: that I care deeply about some things without being able to spread that concern equally among everything I "kind of" care about....gotta keep everything even, y'know. :)

EDIT: yes, that is it. It feels utterly wrong to have grave concern for an event/person/thing when there are others competing for that concern, and I can't give logical explanation to why I should devote my love to the one I love ... so I sometimes fall back to the lowest common denominator, that I can love every competitor equally.

[cjs55]

The more I think about it, the more that I think that INTj hidden agenda is totally off for me. But INTj works pretty much everywhere else. Thing is, INTp descriptions work plenty of places as well, and the hidden agenda is more plausible. Damn you socionics!

[Hexchild]

From here - http://www.socion.info/hiddenagendasecret.html

It's a good thing that this site came up; I was in the process of writing down an extensive analysis of several possible choices because I couldn't seem to come to a definite conclusion. Judging by the descriptions on that site, I think "to love" is by far the closest match.

Love has always been a major issue for me. When I fall in love, I tend to fall hard, for better or worse. I'm emotionally underdeveloped, so the strong emotions that tend to emerge from this state of mind can be devastating. Combined with my tendency to doubt and second-guess pretty much everything, this has conditioned me to be wary and avoid emotional attachment, until I feel confident enough that there is some true potential for a satisfying relationship. This also ties in with some deeper issues I have with a need for mutual commitment.

But if there's one thing I've learned about love, it's that attempting to control it can be futile. Despite my efforts to stay detached, time and time again I have had moments where it has become all too obvious to me that I'm hooked.

[Nadiar]

THis thread seems like a confirmation bias fest to me. "I think this is my type, so I'll look for things that confirm this as my hidden agenda." Not to mention the people who appear to think that MBTI XXXP is the same as socionics XXXp.

I actually just forgot that we were dealing with Socionics.

Anyway, it makes more sense for Socionics.

SiTe - ISTp - Fe => to love
SeTi - ESTp - Fe => to be loved
NiTe - INTp - Fe => to love
NeTi - ENTp - Fe => to be loved
SiFe - ISFp - Te => to understand
SeFi - ESFp - Te => to know
NiFe - INFp - Te => to understand
NeFi - ENFp - Te => to know
TiSe - ISTj - Ne => to believe
TeSi - ESTj - Ne => to be perfect
FiSe - ISFj - Ne => to believe
FeSi - ESFj - Ne => to be perfect
TiNe - INTj - Se => to be healthy
TeNi - ENTj - Se => to be wealthy
FiNe - INFj - Se => to be healthy
FeNi - ENFj - Se => to be wealthy

It basically assumes that everyone will seek to assauge their weakest extroverted trait.

The socion.info page looks more correct, but I can never decipher those accursed hieroglyph's.

[Kljoki]

I think one should recognize the difference between hidden agenda and an underdeveloped function. For instance I have massive problems with the "to love" issue because my Fi (http://socion.info/forums/style_emoticons/default/Fi.gif) is in my Id block and thus I have problems with its realization.

Here is the Model A - http://socion.info/modela.html

Here is the socionics Model of psyche - http://socion.info/miscmodelofthepsyche.html

This is how the hidden agenda is described in socionics:


Super-ID Block The Super-ID block is one of doubt and uncertainty. A person may never really totally be sure how to realize these functions and may never know or care why. Since the activity of the block remains subconscious and concealed to conscious perception, a person does not typically realize the effects of their behavior towards others and may remain unaware to their usage of it. However, the functions remain under a large and dutiful degree of influence from outside sources and may become more efficient, energetic, and confident in usage under the presence of others in good command of the same functions. While the functions within the Super-ID block remain in a state of stagnant weakness, some may habitually feint enough usage of them to consider them strong and resourceful. However, this is false; beyond outside influence, they may never become strength. When left to its own devices, the Super-ID block stands in opposition to the EGO and may fight for dominance. A person under the influence of this block may appear childish, fake, immature, or in need of guidance.

[...]

Weak, Subconscious, Producing - 6th function - The 6th function is a function of doubt and uncertainty, as a person may never really know where they stand with it beyond the unconscious and instinctual drive towards its realization. However, a person cannot truly manifest this function alone. Without support from others, a person may secretly place no or little hope in a true manifestation of this function within themselves. Because of its aggressiveness, some may become convinced it is a strong and resourceful function. In the presence of another in good command of the function, it becomes feisty and energetic, but only temporary. A person under consistent influence of this function may display odd, annoying, or specific behavioral patterns that seem noticeably out of place or out of character and could appear shady, slick, or sly to the casual observer.

The SUPER-ID Block (5+6) Neglected functions by which a person allows to be manipulated by outside influences, usually assists functions 3 & 4

[...]

6. Activation Function - also know as the "Hidden-agenda," this function willfully seeks to express itself and to become energized into a state of confidence or creativity. It may attempt to compete with other functions and become dominant, deceiving many to believe it is a strong and resourceful function. In reality, it often implements itself as a disguise or a feint intended to feed, cloth, and protect other functions. It could be considered a parental function to the childish and immature 4th function. Often a person can mistake this function for the 1st or 2nd functions.

[Kljoki]

The socion.info page looks more correct, but I can never decipher those accursed hieroglyph's. There is an old and a new version of the site. The one with the articles is the old. Here' (http://socion.info/cgi-bin/index.cgi)s the "new" version.
I find the descriptions there fantastic to say the least.

[Kljoki]

http://socion.info/mxwf.jpg

http://socion.info/testpics/Fe.gif - Fe, http://socion.info/testpics/Si.gif - Si, http://socion.info/testpics/Ne.gif - Ne, http://socion.info/testpics/Ti.gif - Ti, http://socion.info/testpics/Se.gif - Se , http://socion.info/testpics/Ni.gif - Ni, http://socion.info/testpics/Te.gif - Te, http://socion.info/testpics/Fi.gif - Fi


EDIT: To get an idea of what type has which hidden agenda.

[philonightmare]

It's rare to find someone with equal capacity for loving, and someone with an understanding for why a person might hold it back or back away out of fear. I have almost always backed away when I've felt deeply for someone. When I haven't, I've felt foolish and hurt. Most of the time, I get over people very easily because I create the distance that actually makes a person not actively love me.

May be weird, but I definitely do something similar, most of the time so naturally so as not to be intentionally manipulative. I'm guessing this is where the subconsious hidden agenda part comes in to play. I've always had serious problems in the area of relationships. Sometimes people think I just don't care. What they don't know is that usually I care too much, and I simply know that my love cannot possibly be returned.
Yes, this similar behavior of ours does seem to be the hidden agenda showing itself. I know what you mean about people thinking you don't care when you really care so much it hurts (and hurts because you think it cannot be returned with such intensity or even close to it).

I wonder why it is that we would even place so much importance on being so mutually loved back. There are so many couples out in the world with unequal amounts of admiration for the other, and they do just fine. But, no matter how hard I try to tolerate the feeling that I am not loved back as much, I can't control my resulting "drifting" behavior. Needless to say, you're right, it's very rare to find another person who get's it and won't be entirely offended.

[C.J.Woolf]

My hidden agenda is to love.

When I allowed myself to fall in love for the first time, I knew it would be unrequited. It hurt, but I was surprised at how euporic I felt. How alive. Being in love is the best feeling I've ever known. To be brutally honest, while I care for my beloved, I love more for myself. It's my drug of choice.

waxwing and philonightmare: After reading your posts I feel lucky -- and sorry for you. I can choose to love or not to love. I can try to be worthy of being loved, but ultimately I can't make someone love me. I wish you luck in finding someone who will love you as you want to be loved.

[AllThingsConsidered]

I'm curious to know how this shows itself in INT/INFjs.

I just thought about it. An INTJ I've known for ten years gradually quit smoking, started dieting, taking martial arts, bought a house, really tried hard to find his girlfriend and learned relax techniques throughout the course of our friendship. I know a lot of people do this going into adulthood...but he is really strict with something once he starts it and it's a frequent topic for conversation. Perhaps in his head he wants to be healthy.

As for this topic:
At first I thought my urge was to understand. That isn't hidden though.
So what do I keep deep down?
Then I thought deeper and realized I really do want to be loved. A little deeper, I realize that the hardest thing for me to do is love.
It's always what destroys my relationships if I think about it. I cut people off because I can't consistently love someone. Really pushing myself to say this, but it is most likely an underlying hope that makes me a mixture of disappointed and ecstatic, which I keep under lock and key most times. 3 years ago I probably wouldn't even admit to this at all.

[Kljoki]

AllThingsConsidered take a pick at the hidden agendas I posted in post #28.
Usually the hidden agenda will not be obvious to you but the reactions of other people to it should.

[AllThingsConsidered]

Considering that I cringe at about 40% of socionics...I'd have to say that's pretty accurate.

[Kljoki]

From here : http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=425

It's a pun on the realization of hidden agendas for different types.




The 4th function and the 6th function are of the same "type", but have different directions. If one is introverted, the other is extroverted, and vice-versa. This seems to make them work "together" in some strange way: having the hidden agenda (6th function) being satisfied takes some of the pressure of the (4th function) Place of Least Resistance, or Painful Function.

The hidden agenda "needs" listed here are ALL universal to every living human being; however, each person has a certain "need" that they find it difficult to accomplish because that "need" often requires use of the 4th function (Painful Function)

Try as we might, we can never realize the "needs" specific to our hidden agenda as much as we would like: doing so would make us use our Painful functions more than we really care to.

An important point:

The hidden agenda sometimes is a BIG part of a person acting contrary to what you would expect from the "typical" picture in your mind of a certain type.

Note: These are supposed to be informative and humerous. If you can't laugh at yourself...well...that only means that you just aren't funny! :D

ENTp, ESTp = Needs emotional stimulation and love. Fears to be cold and unloved.

Just had a hot argument with someone that would end any relationship? If they are ENxp, this is impossible! It will be forgotten tomorrow, much to your surprise (or chagrin!) They can kill your father, mother, and your cat, and will wonder why you don't return thier calls.

INTj, INFj = Needs to be vital and enjoy physicality. Fears to be weak and unhealthy.

The party animal nerd. The drunken philosopher. Argues vehemently that people should be rational while packing the bong for another hit. "Cogito, ergo, sum." he thinks, as he bangs his 3rd woman of the night.

ESFj, ESTj = Needs to use all potential and be perfect. Fears to miss opportunity.

Millionare, CEO, beautiful wife and kids, multifaceted, multitalented, but just will not SHUT UP about his misfortune 20 years ago when he broke his leg and missed a football scholarship and carrer. Will perform open-heart surgery on you if you ask, ESPECIALLY if he is not a doctor!

ISFp, INFp = Needs understanding and organization. Fears to be confused.

Let me get this straight: the Germans sank the Titanic, the Freemasons killed JFK, television reads your thoughts, and you can explain all this with quotes and citations...but you refuse to balance your checkbook!? How can you believe that others have such organizational abilities to execute all these conspiracies when you can barely remember how to fill your car with gas?

ENFj, ENTj = Needs to exercise will. Fears to be subjugated.

Can lead an entire nation into a volcano just for the hell of it. Any excuse becomes reasonable, as long as THEY are the ones in the drivers seat. If you need someone to head up your "Stop Cruelty to Road Signs" crusade, this your guy.

ISTj, ISFj = Needs to have schedule and internal balance. Fears spiritual disconnect.

What if I took an extra hour to do this? What if I took two? What would happen if I just quit? What if you were me, and I was you? What if God didn't exist? Whatever would you do? (On a serious note though, with these folks DON'T BE LATE, and DON'T CHANGE THE PLAN! I warned ya!)

ESFp, ENFp = Needs to be useful and practical. Fears to be useless.

Will bother you for hours asking to help, and when you finally give in, it will take MUCH more work to teach them exactly what to do, answer all thier questions, and fix all thier mistakes, than it would to do ten times the work that you had originally. Easier to call them "idiots" and be done with it!

INTp, ISTp = Needs to love and be morally sound. Fears to be hateful.

Just closed the Wisconsin branch because "It was not economically feasible," but her dog Kibbles snacks on $500/oz imported gormet caviar dog food. Cut health benifits, but volunteers at the local homeless shelter. Says he loves you, but looks perplexed when you smile at him.

[Eileen]

I think that being healthy is definitely a struggle for me, but I don't relate at all to the way it's been expressed in this thread so far, and I don't think that it's just because I don't recognize those actions in myself; I think that it must just look different in me than the scenarios presented here. I really want to be healthy, but I have trouble motivating myself to exercise and restraining myself from indulging immoderately in foods that aren't good for me.

I can see this hidden agenda a lot in my INFJ best friend, though. It's pretty stunningly accurate for her.

I also see glimmers of the INFP hidden agenda in myself. I have terrible attention for everyday details (like filling my gas tank and ... lol, I never balance my checkbook) but I can tell you all about the things that I'm interested in understanding and knowing about... like typology or Early Christianity.

[Eileen]

I think that being healthy is definitely a struggle for me, but I don't relate at all to the way it's been expressed in this thread so far, and I don't think that it's just because I don't recognize those actions in myself; I think that it must just look different in me than the scenarios presented here. I really want to be healthy, but I have trouble motivating myself to exercise and restraining myself from indulging immoderately in foods that aren't good for me.

I can see this hidden agenda a lot in my INFJ best friend, though. It's pretty stunningly accurate for her.

I also see glimmers of the INFP hidden agenda in myself. I have terrible attention for everyday details (like filling my gas tank and ... lol, I never balance my checkbook) but I can tell you all about the things that I'm interested in understanding and knowing about... like typology or Early Christianity.

To clarify, I think that the INFj hidden agenda probably does match me best (I just also have trouble with those everyday details like many of my INFp friends do--difference is, somehow I just barely manage to scrape by or guess the right amount in my bank account so that disaster does not happen as a result of my incompetence). However, the descriptions for the INFj hidden agenda are kind of crappy, I think.

[Kljoki]

However, the descriptions for the INFj hidden agenda are kind of crappy, I think. Well, to get an idea of the hidden agenda one must look at the function that is the hidden agenda, or Si in your case.

This is Si, conscious and strong:

http://socion.info/forums/style_emoticons/default/Si.gif
Your five senses perceive the physical world in all its rich sensations. Sensitive to everything that is physical. Perfect functioning of your five senses. An excellent understanding of the beauty of the world. You withdraw from inconvenience and discomfort. Ability to find the most comfortable place in the surrounding space. Understand the physical needs of people. Pragmatism, aesthetics, using minimum of effort, the skill to find convenience in everything. Rich sensations of the physical world. Strong sensory perception. High physical sensitivity. Perfect working of your five senses. Desire and skill to surround yourself and people with coziness and comfort. Constant ability to receive the beauty of the world. Developed taste, esthetical value, tendency toward sensory pleasures. How would you say it manifest itself for you?
Do you like to engage your Si?
Do you have problems with it?

Would you say this describes it? http://www.geocities.com/tommylove9000/blocks.html -> SUPER-ID

[Eileen]

Well, to get an idea of the hidden agenda one must look at the function that is the hidden agenda, or Si in your case.

This is Si, conscious and strong:
How would you say it manifest itself for you?
Do you like to engage your Si?
Do you have problems with it?

Would you say this describes it? http://www.geocities.com/tommylove9000/blocks.html -> SUPER-ID

I think that the description of Super-Id would describe my experience of Si. Si is something that I have no clear idea of how to engage--at all. I would like to be able to engage it, I imagine, in a positive way, but I feel rather incompetent at it. I think my experience with it is always imbalanced--either I don't use it, or when I use it, I use it too much such that I get distracted.

How do you determine what each of those psyche blocks is in terms of the cognitive processes?

[Kljoki]

How do you determine what each of those psyche blocks is in terms of the cognitive processes?There is a link below - "Functions In The Model Of The Psyche" http://www.geocities.com/tommylove9000/model.html