"The money is in management..."

[jread]

You know, I've always heard this and it is true. The good money is almost always in management positions.

I've been occupied lately with taking a career path that makes a good living. My current one does not pay all that well, even at the top level. All other careers I'm interested in either require massive training and a total career change, or require more interaction with people (on the phone, in person, etc.) The other way to go is management, which is a terrifying word for an INTP.

I'm starting to feel like I am putting up too many self-limiting roadblocks by running away from anything that requires interaction with other people. I'll never make a good living (by good living I just mean being financially comfortable, not rich) if I keep avoiding this. Maybe it's not as bad as I've made it out to be.

Thoughts?

[Nighthawk]

You know, I've always heard this and it is true. The good money is almost always in management positions.

I've been occupied lately with taking a career path that makes a good living. My current one does not pay all that well, even at the top level. All other careers I'm interested in either require massive training and a total career change, or require more interaction with people (on the phone, in person, etc.) The other way to go is management, which is a terrifying word for an INTP.

I'm starting to feel like I am putting up too many self-limiting roadblocks by running away from anything that requires interaction with other people. I'll never make a good living (by good living I just mean being financially comfortable, not rich) if I keep avoiding this. Maybe it's not as bad as I've made it out to be.

Thoughts?

I did management for 13 years. Hated it so much that I left the field. All the endless meetings, people problems, processes, politics, backstabbing peers, ... yet never actually DOING anything or having a single creative activity. I vowed never to get back into it again. That's just me though. You can always give it a shot. Might work for you.

[tinribz]

It is true and there are some real incompetents earning big money too.

First dismiss any notion that you need to be technically skilled or even good at your job.

Admittedly there may be some companies or professions where you require qualifications to get past a ceiling but in my experience the most valuable skills for career progression are networking. That and being massively over confident and unrealistic your own abilities.

Who you know not what. No big surprise really.

Focus on emailing the right people regularly and getting invited to meetings. Don't waste time on anyone below you. Familiarity does not breed contempt, quite the opposite. Appear funny hardworking and reliable, no one will bother to check if you really are.

Unfortunately this doesn't fit in with any intp values or natural inclanations.

[Conan]

Every time I see my boss in management I think "Thank god, I dont have his job."

[Nighthawk]

Focus on emailing the right people regularly and getting invited to meetings. Don't waste time on anyone below you.

Sounds exactly like my present manager.

[Refugee]

I'm in management now. It keeps me awake at night. And it involves constant, and I mean CONSTANT interacting with people. Management is all about communicating, which us INTPs just don't do well in person. I'm amazed at how many times I assume people understand the direction we're going and then find out they don't.

But you're right, the money is good. And no, you don't have to be technically skilled, because YOU aren't doing the job, the people who work for you are. Management is a good thing to do for a while, if only to understand why people in management act like they do. You'll know because you will act the same way, if you do it long enough.

[Edmond Zedo]

I won't do management, because it's stressful and unrewarding (To my psyche).

People who take promotions into management deserve what they get. I got offered a promotion once, into a position that could have led to further promotion (to management), and didn't take it.

[sbw]

The good money is almost always in management positions.


so are all the bad people. and if they're not, they are above or below you in the heirarchy, which means that you have to deal with them.

it couldn't possibly be worth it to me.

Scott

[jread]

Well, say you don't go into management but do a job where you have to interact with people on a regular basis. Is that not as bad? I'm not seeing anything where I can have a nice salary and be completely shut off from the rest of the world.

[kuranes]

Lots of jobs, mgt. or no, involve dealing with people - one way or another. Some are loaded with politics and BS, and ( so I hear ) some aren't. Take your shot and assume the best. If it turns out to be shit, cross that bridge when you come to it. You might turn out to be a decent negotiator, so that BECAUSE of jread, some of the bullshit that would otherwise have been there - - ISN'T.

[akirafist]

Sounds exactly like my present manager.

He takes time out for any cute women that happen to pass by. Although they are 23487486234 years younger than him.

Nighthawk's manager: "You remember when we wrote on stone tablets?"
Young girl: "Uh ... no?"

[Refugee]

My theory on negative personality traits in managers is this -
Anyone's negative personality traits are magnified as they rise into a leadership position. Especially magnified to people who have to answer to them. People in management are no worse than anyone else, they are just on the skyline, so they're easier to analyze and easier to target.

Do it, just for the experience. You'll only know if you try it.

[Zephyrus055]

I know one INTP who does management. His leadership style is simple:

"I'll give you clear and precise instructions and if you're not doing your job, then I am going to warn you." Moreover, he knows exactly when to give positive reinforcement to everyone and is diplomatic. He also hates making decisions so he lets others offer their input.

But anyway, I think I'd love working for a company that excludes SJs, muhaha. Funny how SJs are supposed to be honest and dutiful, yet in management they are often political and backstabbing...

[Zephyrus055]

He takes time out for any cute women that happen to pass by. Although they are 23487486234 years younger than him.

Nighthawk's manager: "You remember when we wrote on stone tablets?"
Young girl: "Uh ... no?"
It would be funny if you guys hired a young ENTP and assigned her the task to seduce and ruin him... and it would probably work.

[akirafist]

It would be funny if you guys hired a young ENTP and assigned her the task to seduce and ruin him... and it would probably work.

He's already on the fast track to ruining himself, plus there's the hurdle of finding a woman who'd have sex with him. :unsure:

[Nighthawk]

He's already on the fast track to ruining himself, plus there's the hurdle of finding a woman who'd have sex with him. :unsure:

I don't think we could pool enough money for that.

[Nighthawk]

You sound like you really want to give it a shot, jread ... so I recommend trying it out to see how well it fits you. INTPs are all about trying different things and this is certainly quite different. Even if it doesn't work out, then you will be content with not being in management, rather than having some nagging "what ifs" bothering you.

Although I hated my time in management overall ... it was still a positive learning experience. I can spot a good manager (and bad one) fairly fast and react appropriately. I can support good ones very well, prop up weak ones if I feel they need/deserve it, and get out of the splatter radius of the fools.

As a manager, you will be a communicator ... as an earlier poster mentioned. You will communicate virtually all the time in endless meetings, through email, through documents, through phone conferences, and through one-on-one with your people. You will be responsible to your people (if you're good) for removing the roadblocks they have to accomplishing their jobs. You will be responsible to your bosses for everything your people do or fail to do. Middle management is particularly stressfull because of this pull from both directions.

You'll have very little time to actually get your hands dirty in the actual work being done. Some will view you as an amateur because of this. If you take care of your people however, they will respect you for it. Take care of them too much however, and you might run into problems with those above you.

[MySavior]

For all those with experience in the real world.. if you share your experience, then I'll appreciate it fully.

Like, a real analysis of the situation and what to do, rather than what the "books" tell you.

Like Nighthawk and tinribz have both given me some very good information that will surely be of benefit later on.

I know you all are just dying to share..

I don't want to fall on my face in the future.

[AcidGoethe]

Although I hated my time in management overall ... it was still a positive learning experience. I can spot a good manager (and bad one) fairly fast and react appropriately. I can support good ones very well, prop up weak ones if I feel they need/deserve it, and get out of the splatter radius of the fools.

As a manager, you will be a communicator ... as an earlier poster mentioned. You will communicate virtually all the time in endless meetings, through email, through documents, through phone conferences, and through one-on-one with your people. You will be responsible to your people (if you're good) for removing the roadblocks they have to accomplishing their jobs. You will be responsible to your bosses for everything your people do or fail to do. Middle management is particularly stressfull because of this pull from both directions.

You'll have very little time to actually get your hands dirty in the actual work being done. Some will view you as an amateur because of this. If you take care of your people however, they will respect you for it. Take care of them too much however, and you might run into problems with those above you.


I think INTP's, and NT's in general, would do better at higher levels in management (The ideal, of course, being the CEO ;) )... where more strategic decisions are involved. Tell me, Nighthawk, do you think you would have enjoyed it more if you were higher up? Wasn't the worst part having bosses above you, and not being able to make major decisions yourself?

Personally, as much as I would love being a CEO or director, I would hate doing middle management. Having to resolve conflict all day, do politics, dealing with colleagues backstabbing you, ... The problem being of course, unless you start a business or find associates, you will always have to climb the ladder before arriving at the top.

Middle management sounds really like something NF's could do quite well. Communicating, reconciling points of view, resolving conflict... But it doesn't sound like skills that come naturally to NT's, not even the Extraverted ones...

[jread]

Thanks for the responses so far. I will elaborate even more on where I'm going with this:

In my current field, I will *have* to go to management to make decent money. That's all there is to it. I could also go into the more technical side but that would require a ton of training in programming and database administration, which I'm not sure I have enough interest in to make myself more marketable than people who have done it since they were teenagers.

My true passion, what really interests me, is the field of urban planning. If I could be involved in the way cities are designed and planned out, I would love going to work every day. I'm in a planning-related field and it wouldn't be too hard to transition into it. The other day I sent a few emails around to the senior planners for the city and the Director of Comprehensive Planning actually called me at work. He spent about half an hour telling me all about it and answering all my questions. Turns out I actually know the guy really well. I knew him back when he was low on the totem pole and didn't realize he was a director now. He said his department is responsible for actually "shaping" the way the city is built and that it's a freaking blast. I told him that this is exactly what I want to be a part of. He told me more about the job and the parts of planning that are fun and not so fun. The not so fun parts are answering calls/complaints from citizens, doing presentations at City Council meetings (which can sometimes get very heated), etc. There is also a huge political element to planning.... you can design the most awesome idea ever only to have it shot down by a developer/neighborhood association that has massive political pull with the city government. He said this was the most frustrating part. However, the rest of what you do makes up for it and you go home every day feelling like you've truly made a difference in the world. He also said that it will lead you to management eventually, so you have to be ready for that in the future.

I talked to my fiancee about it (ENTJ) and she said that I shouldn't limit myself so much by running away from anything that involves interaction with people. She told me that I'm a lot better at dealing with people/calming them down than I think. She said that I don't piss people off nearly as often as she does (you know how ENTJ's are, lol). I think I do very well as a mediator and always have, I just don't know how I would deal with the confrontation being with me. At the same time, especially around here, people are generally nice most of the time. It's rare that you have to deal with the assholes.

So anyway, given that info, I'd like to hear more feedback. I know Coffeezombie has a planning degree but I don't know if he's active in the field at the moment.

[Hypnos]

I think INTP's, and NT's in general, would do better at higher levels in management (The ideal, of course, being the CEO ;) )... where more strategic decisions are involved.
Yes, I know some xNTPs in executive positions -- they enjoy "playing Legos" with millions of $$ and hundreds of people here and there. They are exclusively in highly technical organizations, where the culture is all about the bottom line at the corporate level and civility at the personal level.

[Nighthawk]

I think INTP's, and NT's in general, would do better at higher levels in management (The ideal, of course, being the CEO ;) )... where more strategic decisions are involved. Tell me, Nighthawk, do you think you would have enjoyed it more if you were higher up? Wasn't the worst part having bosses above you, and not being able to make major decisions yourself?


Yes ... for me higher up definitely equated to more satisfaction. Just the difference between being a lieutenant platoon leader and captain troop commander was large enough to really feel and enjoy it. The best times I had as a manager/leader were operating autonomously in enemy territory ... with my boss far out of reach ... where it was entirely my show. All my responsibility and my decisions. Nobody second guessing or calling meetings every 2 hours to discuss political matters, etc. Basically, just doing what worked and cutting away all the extraneous BS.

Conversely, the most tortuous times were when I had my boss up my ass like a bumbling proctologist, second-guessing every move I made, completely robbing me of my initiative and any ability to control/maneuver my unit. I loved it when his boss was around because, although he was a pompous little bastard, he was up my boss' ass so much that it prevented him from being up mine.

A close second on the tortuous scale was being held responsible for anything and everything one of my guys screwed up. I was in charge of 150 people, so statistically speaking ... 75 of them were probably below average intelligence and would screw up a lot. I spent most of my out of combat time catering to and dealing with domestic disputes, crybabies, unwed mothers, petty criminals, overweight problems, habitual check bouncers, DWIs, STDs, missing weapons/ammunition, missing supplies, missing clothing, unclean living areas, spousal abuse, adultery, pregnancies, deadbeat fathers, payroll problems, vacation problems, doctor's apointments, personal hygiene, sexual perverts, drug users, drug sellers, drug manufacturers, bullies, crazies, the mentally challenged, camp followers, strippers, back stabbing peers, wreckless teenagers, suicidal people, homicidal people, aggressive people prone to assault, drunks, bestiality, and just about anything else you that you can imagine. All that was what really drove me over the edge with respect to management and pushed me away from it. I doubt it would be that bad in the civilian world though.

[AcidGoethe]

Thanks for the reply, Nighthawk. It's interesting what you say about your management experiences... better when you get to make your own decisions, have independence... But, gee 150 people, that's alot! I can't even imagine all the problems that means because of the probability that any one screws up. And yeah, in the military, things must be even worse than in business. 11 years in there must teach you alot of things.


Yes, I know some xNTPs in executive positions -- they enjoy "playing Legos" with millions of $$ and hundreds of people here and there. They are exclusively in highly technical organizations, where the culture is all about the bottom line at the corporate level and civility at the personal level.

The best example, Steve Jobs?

[Hustler]

So anyway, given that info, I'd like to hear more feedback. I know Coffeezombie has a planning degree but I don't know if he's active in the field at the moment.

Here's some feedback: jobs are for suckers.

[Refugee]

The higher you get in the chain, the easier it is for your INTP-ness. One - you get to deal more in concepts and analysis and less in day to day problem solving. Two - the higher you get, the fewer people you have to answer to or explain your actions to.

One habit I've had to break is not to get lost in my work to the point that I ignore people. I used to barely look up from my PC when people would come in to see me, now I make an effort to tear myself away from whatever I am concentrating on and focus fully on the person in front of me. This means not much gets done during work hours, so you end up staying late to do "real work", but you ignore your people at your peril.

[Nighthawk]

One habit I've had to break is not to get lost in my work to the point that I ignore people. I used to barely look up from my PC when people would come in to see me, now I make an effort to tear myself away from whatever I am concentrating on and focus fully on the person in front of me. This means not much gets done during work hours, so you end up staying late to do "real work", but you ignore your people at your peril.

An excellent point. I always tried to give my complete attention to anybody who came in to see me ... regardless of position. That included closing the door and not answering the telephone while talking with them. Knowing that I was distracted easily, I also made sure that I did not start glancing around at or playing with things on my desk ... and also kept good eye contact.

I also did a LOT of walking around to see what everybody who worked for me was doing. I had them explain to me how what they were doing worked, and tried to get things to a personable level so I could discover if they were having any problems that I could fix for them. It was a bit of a tight rope. If they did open up to me with a problem, I had to do my damnedest to fix it. I also had to keep their bosses (my intermediate level sergeants and lieutenants) off their backs for bringing up the problem. Any slip ups in either of these two areas, and I could rest assured I would never hear about problems again ... until it was too late. This meant bringing up things very diplomatically, so that my junior leaders did not feel that they had dropped the ball or that I was circumventing them. Of course, if a junior leader habitually did not know about problems in his organization, then he needed to have his lugnuts tightened ... but everybody occasionally misses things.

[25fd]

Higher level management is the way to go for INTP. Join Toastmasters. There are three INTP directors in my department alone. Middle management is hard. If I were to stay in the corporate world I would go for higher management roles for sure.

[sbw]

The higher you get in the chain, the easier it is for your INTP-ness.

is this because women are attracted to men in powerful positions?

Scott