ISTPs! Where the hell are you?

[Magajy]

Why is it so easy to find descriptions of INTP's and all other types except for ISTP's?

All sites say they (ISTP's) are misrepresented on the net. Why doesn't anyone take an interest in them and describe their type in much detail? Or are they so damn boring....?

If INTP's are anything to go by, ISTP's shouldn't be that unexciting???

Where the hell are they?

[eyebyte_atWork]

ISTP Description:

The Crafter Artisans are not only concrete in speech and utilitarian in getting things done, they are also directive and attentive in their social roles. Though directive like their Promoter counterparts, their directiveness is leavened by a good deal of attentiveness and seclusiveness. They do not approach strangers readily, but once in contact do not hesitate to tell them what to do. And they can be quite forceful in this, such that others tend to do their bidding.

Like the other Artisans, Crafters live a life is artful action, but their particular nature is most easily seen in their mastery of tools of any and all kinds, from microscopic drill to supersonic jet, from potter's wheel to grand piano, from a camera to a clarinet. Sometimes Crafters will use their body as a tool. A tool is any implement that extends or varies our human powers -- vehicles, musical instruments, cutting devices, and weapons are just four of the many categories of the tools that surround us. Most of us use tools in some capacity, of course, but Crafters (only ten per cent of the general population) are the true virtuosos of tool work, with a natural ability to command tools, to bend them to their wishes, and to become adept at all the crafts requiring tool skills. Even from an early age Crafters are drawn to tools as to a magnet; tools fall into their hands demanding use, and they must manipulate them. Indeed, if a given tool, whether scalpel or earthmover, is operated with a precision that defies belief, that operator is likely an Crafter.

[Ella]

My best friend is ISTP. I think the description at Typelogic is pretty good. He participates on a few email lists and message boards related to his interests, which are generally mechanical/hardware things (clocks, computers, etc.). The majority of his time online is spent researching solutions to problems, including finding the best prices for thing he bills clients for, like parts and software. I don't think he's boring. He doesn't have the drive and thirst for adventure and travel and to Know All Things that I do, but he likes to join me in many of those things when I do them. It's his birthday today and we are going out with a small group of friends for dinner and miniature golf and whatever else strikes our fancy. I think he's a bigger P than I am; we tend to goof off and not get a lot done when we're together (it takes us forever to buy groceries, for example, unless I'm really on top of getting us in and out of the store quickly). We can find a million things to be interested in and discuss, even in a grocery store.

[distraction tactics]

Most of the MBTI-related sites will have information on all 16 types, but there is a noted lack of ISTP forum activity anywhere on the net. I belong to an ISTP group on Myspace, but there are only about 10 members and it's completely dead.

One ISTP profile a few of us really like is the Murray State (http://www.murraystate.edu/secsv/fye/ISTP.htm) one.

[AcidGoethe]

Most of the MBTI-related sites will have information on all 16 types, but there is a noted lack of ISTP forum activity anywhere on the net. I belong to an ISTP group on Myspace, but there are only about 10 members and it's completely dead.

One ISTP profile a few of us really like is the Murray State (http://www.murraystate.edu/secsv/fye/ISTP.htm) one.

Wow. Thanks for sharing this. The profiles there are hands down the best I have ever read.

[Mr. Beef]

Most of the MBTI-related sites will have information on all 16 types, but there is a noted lack of ISTP forum activity anywhere on the net. I belong to an ISTP group on Myspace, but there are only about 10 members and it's completely dead.

Luckily INTPs are very similar to ISTPs...they have their second and third functions switched around, that's it. So i'm hoping that you could bring your ISTP friends to INTParadise.

[sasapurdue]

I have a somewhat off-topic question relating to ISTP's. I have a close relationship with an ISTP. He INSISTS on contradicting everything I say. I am getting very annoyed with him. If I say the sky is blue he will say something like "Well not really, it is actually kind of purple". Is there something about INTP that provokes ISTP's to react this way? I am female and he is male if that counts for anything. I am wondering if there is something about my personality that makes him feel like he can't ever agree with me.

[Magajy]

I can really relate to that. It's a sort of "care free attitude" and not wanting to define stuff too precisely. I find in my normal day to day answers to questions words like, somewhat, kind of, -ish, thinks like that. Point: ISTP's generally dont like pricisely defining stuff, as when u do and are in error the error is much bigger than if you allow some room (thats why we hardly plan, so we can always adapt).

And from the INTP's description it is clear why this will be annoying, as they exactly want to tdo the opposite, ie define all things so clearly.

No harm intended, he isn't contradicting you, he's just being frank (as he sees it)

[sasapurdue]

I can really relate to that. It's a sort of "care free attitude" and not wanting to define stuff too precisely. I find in my normal day to day answers to questions words like, somewhat, kind of, -ish, thinks like that. Point: ISTP's generally dont like pricisely defining stuff, as when u do and are in error the error is much bigger than if you allow some room (thats why we hardly plan, so we can always adapt).

And from the INTP's description it is clear why this will be annoying, as they exactly want to tdo the opposite, ie define all things so clearly.

No harm intended, he isn't contradicting you, he's just being frank (as he sees it)

Ok this sounds right. I know he means no harm. I just thought maybe there was something about me that was causing him to react this way. I guess I will try to define things less precisely around him.

[bergenski]

I have a somewhat off-topic question relating to ISTP's. I have a close relationship with an ISTP. He INSISTS on contradicting everything I say. I am getting very annoyed with him. If I say the sky is blue he will say something like "Well not really, it is actually kind of purple". Is there something about INTP that provokes ISTP's to react this way? I am female and he is male if that counts for anything. I am wondering if there is something about my personality that makes him feel like he can't ever agree with me.

It is my belief that perhaps INTP's or NT's often state things in absolute terms or in undeniable terms as a result of their understanding of having insight into situations. I believe "S" and others sometimes take this as being a "know it all" or stating things unequivocally and I think in an effort to present their position as being noteworthy (or other reasons, I am not totally sure) sometimes people will automatically disagree with someone just for the sake of disagreement...it is like trying to show the person they are not automatically right, I think...this has been my experience in the past too and with others I have known...it seems very annoying because they are disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing and without any real basis in logic...anyway, I lknow what you are talking about, it is highly frustrating...(I find this phenomenon kind of interesting...is there an issue in self-esteem at play here too? I don't know...)

EDIT: I kind of thought INTP's are precise in their arguments, they just leave the way open for other possibilities and speak in more of a global fashion...

[sasapurdue]

It is my belief that perhaps INTP's or NT's often state things in absolute terms or in undeniable terms as a result of their understanding of having insight into situations. I believe "S" and others sometimes take this as being a "know it all" or stating things unequivocally and I think in an effort to present their position as being noteworthy (or other reasons, I am not totally sure) sometimes people will automatically disagree with someone just for the sake of disagreement...it is like trying to show the person they are not automatically right, I think...this has been my experience in the past too and with others I have known...it seems very annoying because they are disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing and without any real basis in logic...anyway, I lknow what you are talking about, it is highly frustrating...(I find this phenomenon kind of interesting...is there an issue in self-esteem at play here too? I don't know...)

EDIT: I kind of thought INTP's are precise in their arguments, they just leave the way open for other possibilities and speak in more of a global fashion...

Yeah I think this sounds right. I think he sees me as kind of a know-it-all. I don't think his male ego is entirely comfortable with a female who feels confident she knows what she is talking about. So he feels inclined to disagree with me just to show me that I am not necessarily right. But the truth is I probably do need to not act like such a know-it-all at times.

[bergenski]

Yeah I think this sounds right. I think he sees me as kind of a know-it-all. I don't think his male ego is entirely comfortable with a female who feels confident she knows what she is talking about. So he feels inclined to disagree with me just to show me that I am not necessarily right. But the truth is I probably do need to not act like such a know-it-all at times.

And me as well...perhaps we state things so unequivocally to reenforce our own perspective and try to recruit others to our position...or perhaps we are just sure that we have objective insight into something until someone proves otherwise...

[nihilist]

I always thought the more you know about something, the less you're sure about anything, at least not enough so to assert confidently. In the process of overthinking, we can imbibe so many different perspectives so as to limit oversimplified conclusions.

To add a contrary view, IMO, SPs are more inclined for self expression, regardless of the scope and depth of their thoughts/feelings.

[SensEye]

Yeah I think this sounds right. I think he sees me as kind of a know-it-all. I don't think his male ego is entirely comfortable with a female who feels confident she knows what she is talking about. So he feels inclined to disagree with me just to show me that I am not necessarily right. But the truth is I probably do need to not act like such a know-it-all at times.Here's what I don't get. In any given instance you are either right or you are not. If you are not right it is natural and expected that he would disagree with you. If you are right and he mistakenly disagrees with you, you should argue with him until you straighten him out. Eventually, I would think he would learn to only disagree with you when he is confident he can support his position. If he doesn't really know if you are right or wrong, he should learn to just hold his tongue. Of course, this really boils down to how often you are actually right. If you act the know-it-all, then lose 75% of the arguments, you're in trouble.

[sasapurdue]

Here's what I don't get. In any given instance you are either right or you are not. If you are not right it is natural and expected that he would disagree with you. If you are right and he mistakenly disagrees with you, you should argue with him until you straighten him out. Eventually, I would think he would learn to only disagree with you when he is confident he can support his position. If he doesn't really know if you are right or wrong, he should learn to just hold his tongue. Of course, this really boils down to how often you are actually right. If you act the know-it-all, then lose 75% of the arguments, you're in trouble.
A lot of times he will argue with me when I am factually right. I mean I have gone back after the argument many times, found said fact on the internet and emailed it to him. Like for instance, that you can get a tan or a sunburn on a cloudy day. He said you can't when I knew for sure that you can (to me this seems like something that is obvious to everyone but whatever).
It's not a fact or not fact thing, this is about the dynamic of our relationship. He has some sort of subconscious beef with how I am that makes him feel inclined to argue with me, or at least that is what I think. So I want to know what aspect of my personality it is that makes an ISTP feel inclined to argue with everything I say.
I could give other examples of what the arguments have been about. It's alway stupid, petty shit. Like if leaving my ipod in the glovebox in my car in the summer time will drain the battery. DUH. YES. Doesn't everyone know this to be fact? Apparently not, since he killed my ipod and now won't take responsibility for it.

[Edmond Zedo]

Why is it so easy to find descriptions of INTP's and all other types except for ISTP's?

All sites say they (ISTP's) are misrepresented on the net. Why doesn't anyone take an interest in them and describe their type in much detail? Or are they so damn boring....?

If INTP's are anything to go by, ISTP's shouldn't be that unexciting???

Where the hell are they?
If you take a look at the whole spectrum of 16-type schools, you'll notice that the vast majority of writers are INTP. We're more fond of and better at using this business than anyone, generally. I'm sure there are plenty of ISTPs on the net, but not discussing personality systems. The archetypical ISTP would be reading/writing about or buying parts to mod cars with.

[Magajy]

Yeah I think this sounds right. I think he sees me as kind of a know-it-all. I don't think his male ego is entirely comfortable with a female who feels confident she knows what she is talking about. So he feels inclined to disagree with me just to show me that I am not necessarily right. But the truth is I probably do need to not act like such a know-it-all at times.


Reading all this makes me try to remember how I normally respond to statements like that. And not surprisingly, it’s always with scepticism. My flat-mate has learnt not state to make such statements, as it will just end up in a debate. The sad thing is sometimes it’s just for fun….

I don’t know why, its like trying to think aloud, trying to explore all possibilities, like INTP's do albeit internally. And I only do this when with people I really know and feel at home with. If I weren’t interested in the topic, I would just make some sound indicating indifference or completely and openly ignore the statement. If that’s anything to go by, the fact he’s saying something indicates interest.

Ever remaining mysterious! One description of ISTP’s includes the paragraph:
“ISTPs can often be enigmas, especially to Extraverts and Judgers, who find their unpredictability and apparent social indifference so disturbing that they may try to change them. Not only will the ISTP resent such impositions, he or she may get an inner thrill or satisfaction in not behaving according to expectations, always remaining somewhat mysterious”.

It has nothing to do with you. It's just us ISTP's. Sometimes, I frustrate my best friend by stubbornly disagreeing and finding silly excuses why things can or cannot be. It's carzy, but it's fun, and weirdly we only do it to those close. Why? Dont ask me.

[SensEye]

It's not a fact or not fact thing, this is about the dynamic of our relationship. He has some sort of subconscious beef with how I am that makes him feel inclined to argue with me, or at least that is what I think. So I want to know what aspect of my personality it is that makes an ISTP feel inclined to argue with everything I say. OK, I get it. I would have thought if you made him eat humble pie often enough he might get over it. But some folks are just stubborn, and some arguments are not that cut and dried. Not sure if this is a male ego thing for this individual or an ISTP thing though.



I could give other examples of what the arguments have been about. It's alway stupid, petty shit. Like if leaving my ipod in the glovebox in my car in the summer time will drain the battery. DUH. YES. Doesn't everyone know this to be fact? Apparently not, since he killed my ipod and now won't take responsibility for it.Off topic, but this is news to me. I assume this is a heat related thing but I did not find anything obvious about it with a quick search. I know extreme temperatures are hard on batteries, but nothing so threatening as 'killing' them (you made a bit of a leap from drain to kill, not sure if you mean kill as in 'ruin' or just dead until next recharge). I would think nothing of throwing a cell phone or mp3 player in a glove box for safekeeping if I'm out and about on a warm day, so I'd like to know the facts here.

[sasapurdue]

OK, I get it. I would have thought if you made him eat humble pie often enough he might get over it. But some folks are just stubborn, and some arguments are not that cut and dried. Not sure if this is a male ego thing for this individual or an ISTP thing though.

Off topic, but this is news to me. I assume this is a heat related thing but I did not find anything obvious about it with a quick search. I know extreme temperatures are hard on batteries, but nothing so threatening as 'killing' them (you made a bit of a leap from drain to kill, not sure if you mean kill as in 'ruin' or just dead until next recharge). I would think nothing of throwing a cell phone or mp3 player in a glove box for safekeeping if I'm out and about on a warm day, so I'd like to know the facts here.
Yes he is very stubborn!!! I think I am just going to try to be less argumentative. I don't like the fact that I am so argumentative anyone. It is a compulsion that I need to get some control off.
I'm sorry. I guess this wasn't obvious about the battery, I don't know why I though it was. I didn't mean to be shitty. If you go to the apple website you can find a page about caring for the ipod batteries where it states explicitly that heat is the worst possible thing for the battery of the ipod.

http://www.apple.com/batteries/ipods.html

[sbw]

Yeah I think this sounds right. I think he sees me as kind of a know-it-all. I don't think his male ego is entirely comfortable with a female who feels confident she knows what she is talking about. So he feels inclined to disagree with me just to show me that I am not necessarily right. But the truth is I probably do need to not act like such a know-it-all at times.

one of my few close friends is an ISTP; I think you hit the chauvinism nail on the head.

my ISTP friend brian is the token "whoever he can get" guy within an extended group of (male) friends. this seems to be both a consequence of self-esteem issues and a manifestation thereof...with a side effect similar to what you describe, an "ego" thing with regards to smart, competent women.

I don't actually know that many ISXP's, but I've often wondered if the veneer of chauvinism is a common defense mechanism for ISTP men.

Scott

[sasapurdue]

one of my few close friends is an ISTP; I think you hit the chauvinism nail on the head.

my ISTP friend brian is the token "whoever he can get" guy within an extended group of (male) friends. this seems to be both a consequence of self-esteem issues and a manifestation thereof...with a side effect similar to what you describe, an "ego" thing with regards to smart, competent women.

I don't actually know that many ISXP's, but I've often wondered if the veneer of chauvinism is a common defense mechanism for ISTP men.

Scott
I think part of the problem is that he comes from an EXTREMELY traditional family. His parents fit the salt-of-the-earth type perfectly and his mom is definitely, I guess the word would be, submissive to her husband. I am not the submissive type really so I think that it creates conflict in our relationship -- his example of what a relationship should be and how the female should act is very different from how I am.
When he feels uncomfortable I notice him falling into the traditional chauvinistic male pose that you mentioned.

[sbw]

I think part of the problem is that he comes from an EXTREMELY traditional family. His parents fit the salt-of-the-earth type perfectly and his mom is definitely, I guess the word would be, submissive to her husband. I am not the submissive type really so I think that it creates conflict in our relationship -- his example of what a relationship should be and how the female should act is very different from how I am.
When he feels uncomfortable I notice him falling into the traditional chauvinistic male pose that you mentioned.

yea, perfect--his family isnt overly "traditional" in a religious sense, but there seems to be a traditionalist dominant-submissive relationship amongst his parents...also, I would be surprised if many INTP women described themselves as "submissive". (I actually kinda giggled at the thought)

Scott

[nihilist]

Some degree of skepticism and detachment is requisite for critical thinking, so I wouldn't lump all the skeptics with self esteem issues or a particular MBTI type.

There's a difference between quibbling over encyclopedic details and systematically analyzing the assumptions, reasoning, and conclusions of ideas and opinions. Besides, most people of all types don't argue about factual details that can be easily verified by a common source.

To those who know (or are) ISTPs: How do ISTPs react to the indefinite, ambiguous realms in psychology, philosophy, and sociology? If not anything else, a casual conversation regarding politics is bound to come up.

[Magajy]

Some degree of skepticism and detachment is requisite for critical thinking, so I wouldn't lump all the skeptics with self esteem issues or a particular MBTI type.

There's a difference between quibbling over encyclopedic details and systematically analyzing the assumptions, reasoning, and conclusions of ideas and opinions.

To those who know (or are) ISTPs: How do ISTPs react to the indefinite, ambiguous realms in psychology, philosophy, and sociology? If not anything else, a casual conersation regarding politics is bound to come up.

I am pretty much ISTP, and for me I find those topics (psycholgy & phylosophy, don't care about sociology ) to be worth following to the point they remain interesting, after that I just quit, normally with some general conclusion about the whole topic.

[In...TP]

Most istps I know, love the out-of-doors. They are natural born killers, so to speak.

[sbw]

To those who know (or are) ISTPs: How do ISTPs react to the indefinite, ambiguous realms in psychology, philosophy, and sociology? If not anything else, a casual conversation regarding politics is bound to come up.

with beer. and the realization that the tipsy blonde across the bar is (to them) more interesting than "indefinite, ambiguous realms in psychology, philosophy, and sociology" could ever be.

sometimes I envy their simplicity just a little bit...

Scott

[nihilist]

I am pretty much ISTP, and for me I find those topics (psycholgy & phylosophy, don't care about sociology ) to be worth following to the point they remain interesting, after that I just quit, normally with some general conclusion about the whole topic.

I should have originally posed a different question. How inclined are ISTPs to connect real life events with abstract concepts or some form of philosophy? Most events that transpire in the world have the potential to be repeatedly speculated upon.

[sbw]

Most istps I know, love the out-of-doors. They are natural born killers, so to speak.

yep. my aforementioned friend goes camping or fishing on occasion, and knows that I'm not interested in tagging along. so he calls me to attend sporting events, play basketball, play golf, or hit the bar. he knows what other people are into, and is pretty non-judgemental when sizing them up (except for calling me lazy, which is true).

Scott

[Magajy]

I should have originally posed a different question. How inclined are ISTPs to connect real life events with abstract concepts or some form of philosophy? Most events that transpire in the world have the potential to be repeatedly speculated upon.

I see to separate Q's here.

1. How inclined are ISTPs to connect real life events with abstract concepts or some form of philosophy?
I cant speak for all. But for me its mostly some general conclusion. I dont like saying A is the cause of B, i'd rather say A is a probable cause of B. So linking past the general statement is quite rear for me.

2. Most events that transpire in the world have the potential to be repeatedly speculated upon

Repeatedly speculated upon? Like forever? That switches me off. Even discussing and re-discussing things as "practical" as politics get's me off.

[Ella]

sasapurdue - I disagree with the other responses. My friend of 14 years is an ISTP, he's male, I'm female, and we don't have the dynamic you're talking about. His parents also had a traditional marriage (his mother was a SAHM, and a seamstress). If anything, correcting someone when a shade of meaning or word use or definition is wrong sounds more like something an INTP would do than an ISTP. He is rarely stubborn, perhaps only when irrationally provoked or pushed, and that doesn't sound like what you're doing. We've been roommates for 7 years and I know all of his faults - to a fault, heh heh - and he knows mine. I'd go so far as to say he is delightfully devoid of issues with women (which is such a relief). When he is extremely stressed or overtired, I sometimes see fallout from his sibling issues, but that's it.

However, we're not romantically involved, just friends. Is your ISTP someone you're dating? If he's young and has ego/women issues, those two factors probably account for more of an explanation for his behaviour than his personality type.

[bergenski]

Like if leaving my ipod in the glovebox in my car in the summer time will drain the battery. DUH. YES. Doesn't everyone know this to be fact? Apparently not, since he killed my ipod and now won't take responsibility for it.

:lol: One should know not to leave electronics in a hot glovebox no matter what...I don't know if it is related to type...I think he probably resents that you are right so often (and also, perhaps, that you are female) and feels naturally inclined to say you're wrong. I would say you might as well just accept it if you like him...but he should still take responsibiity for the ipod...

[sasapurdue]

sasapurdue - I disagree with the other responses. My friend of 14 years is an ISTP, he's male, I'm female, and we don't have the dynamic you're talking about. His parents also had a traditional marriage (his mother was a SAHM, and a seamstress). If anything, correcting someone when a shade of meaning or word use or definition is wrong sounds more like something an INTP would do than an ISTP. He is rarely stubborn, perhaps only when irrationally provoked or pushed, and that doesn't sound like what you're doing. We've been roommates for 7 years and I know all of his faults - to a fault, heh heh - and he knows mine. I'd go so far as to say he is delightfully devoid of issues with women (which is such a relief). When he is extremely stressed or overtired, I sometimes see fallout from his sibling issues, but that's it.

However, we're not romantically involved, just friends. Is your ISTP someone you're dating? If he's young and has ego/women issues, those two factors probably account for more of an explanation for his behaviour than his personality type.

He is my boyfriend. I think he probably has some women issues because I am only his second girlfriend ever and he is 34 (35 soon). He is the most extreme 'I' that I have ever met. Much more than me.

[sasapurdue]

:lol: One should know not to leave electronics in a hot glovebox no matter what...I don't know if it is related to type...I think he probably resents that you are right so often (and also, perhaps, that you are female) and feels naturally inclined to say you're wrong. I would say you might as well just accept it if you like him...but he should still take responsibiity for the ipod...

Its not that big of a deal about the ipod. I am sure I will get a new battery eventually. I could take it to the apple store but I know they are going to rape me cost-wise.
I think there are some ego issues with me being as smart as he is and possibly with me being more educated than he is.

[Johnny]

ISTP Description:

Like the other Artisans, Crafters live a life is artful action, but their particular nature is most easily seen in their mastery of tools of any and all kinds, from microscopic drill to supersonic jet, from potter's wheel to grand piano, from a camera to a clarinet. Sometimes Crafters will use their body as a tool. A tool is any implement that extends or varies our human powers -- vehicles, musical instruments, cutting devices, and weapons...

Yeah all the ISTP'ers I know are into all this stuff. If anybody wants to interact with one of these personality types on an internet forum, they need to hang at sites that focus their discussions on these things.

None of them would give a rat's ass for 99% of the discussions that happen on INTP-themed forums, and if you want to get them to talk about INTP'ers you'd have to talk about shooting an INTP'er, or running over one, or cutting one, etc...

[Johnny]

To those who know (or are) ISTPs: How do ISTPs react to the indefinite, ambiguous realms in psychology, philosophy, and sociology? If not anything else, a casual conversation regarding politics is bound to come up.

They don't give a shit...unless the matter can be leveraged to make them better at accomplishing some task.

An ISTP fishing buddy of mine would listen to all the psychology you could pump into his head as long as it has to do with bringing in more fish. But as an INTP speaker as soon as you, say, start drawing connections between human and fish psyches...or going on some other thought train to see where it might end up, the conversation would be over.

Of course I'm generalizing and having fun making jokes that I would laugh at where ISTP'ers are concerned, but it is pretty funny...

[Magajy]

Yeah all the ISTP'ers I know are into all this stuff. If anybody wants to interact with one of these personality types on an internet forum, they need to hang at sites that focus their discussions on these things.

None of them would give a rat's ass for 99% of the discussions that happen on INTP-themed forums, and if you want to get them to talk about INTP'ers you'd have to talk about shooting an INTP'er, or running over one, or cutting one, etc...

Hey guys... Hold on. I'm an ISTP but don't really feel the same. I think those are kind of extreme cases of ISTPs. As ISTP's are actually the odd ones out of the SP's. The description of ISTP's at typelogic.com includes the paragraph:

"...and unlike most ESPs they do not present an impression of constant activity. On the contrary, they lie dormant, saving their energy until a project or an adventure worthy of their time comes along--and then they launch themselves at it."

[Johnny]

Why is it so easy to find descriptions of INTP's and all other types except for ISTP's?

All sites say they (ISTP's) are misrepresented on the net. Why doesn't anyone take an interest in them and describe their type in much detail? Or are they so damn boring....?

If INTP's are anything to go by, ISTP's shouldn't be that unexciting???

Where the hell are they?

Oh hey dude you started this shit! O.K. now I understand a little better the discussion.

You're a dude, right? Either way, no wonder you're lost! All you're going to get from us INTP'ers is a bunch of bullshit.

What do you like to do? I hang on another website for musicians to talk about technique, performance, players/role models, etc. They're all over the place. It doesn't matter...guns, dancing, racing, they're all over. Just google for your favorite thing(s) and surf around...there's likely so many ISTP forums out there, they're just not called ISTP forums.

No offense intended Magajy you hang here on INTP Central as you see fit

[Iyan]

I am on a Yahoo MBTI-ISTP forum, but only a couple of us are ISTPs, with the rest being Ns. It's quite inactive, though, obviously, since Ss normally aren't into that stuff.

The potential point(s) were Ss (especially SPs, though they are few) could find themselves digging around in Keirsey and MBTI Theory, is because they do it for some practical motive(s):

1. They want to find a major and job that is right for them, and this can occur when College SPs (and they are so few in number) can get so confused on what kinds of jobs they would want to get into, especially if many jobs sound good at the moment. Some will see that certain items like Writing, Painting, Computers, etc., can be quite numerous.

2. They may try their hand at Keirsey/MBTI Theory to see which type would suit them best as a potential spouse.

3. Or maybe because they want to optimize their enterprise. Many companies and jobs out there hand people an MBTI or Keirsey test in order to address their specific needs or to see which position they will fit the best in.

Just some ideas.

[KuJo]

i just wanted to add that ISTPs are the masters of small talk. They add a certain flair and sarcasticness that makes conversation bearable. Normally people will just blabber on about random crap i could care less about. But the ISTP makes it like i needed to know something, and then gives it their usual tone of mockery and dryness which i have come to love hearing when my ISTP friend explains things to people.

Its one trait i have found to be quite common among the ISTPs i have met.

[Sally]

One ISTP profile a few of us really like is the Murray State (http://www.murraystate.edu/secsv/fye/ISTP.htm) one.

That one seems to fit my good friend a great deal.

She's one of the rare ISTP females, and while she's obsessed with fashion, celebrities, and art rather than anything remotely outdoorsy... I think she's still hugely intimidating to guys - bigger cojones than anyone, can genuinely take them or leave them, but opposed to us NT bookworms, she's all over the place (when she cares to be), drawing attention.

She is awe-inspiring!!! But yeah there's no telling when she'll be interested in something or not. Surface traits amuse her - she doesn't care a whit for what it all means.

[aether]

My manager at one of the numerous jobs I've held was an ISTP. But in retrospect, I think I've had other bosses who were also ISTP's. I've read somewhere that ISTP's are 10% of the general population, that's a lot. I am sure there are at least 25% of the members here, but it's just a conspiracy theory of mine. I've also read that after having many dissapointments in life ISTP's turn EVIL and they love to be POPULAR....but it is intriguing that they don't seem to post much on forums and stuff, or do they. It might be because they don't like the clutter present in forums....hmm

[KuJo]

ISTPs are more likely to engage in a different forum. like PBnation. or some other forum where people talk about their new gear and how to intricately tune it to be better.

[Natalidae]

I’ve been trying to figure out my personality type for a few months now, and recently settled on ISTp. My best friend is really into socionics and she is always trying to classify me, but comes up with types that just don't fit. I'm tired of being incorrectly typed, which is why I’m so determined to figure out my socionics type (I’m actually quite interested in personality testing myself, but have focused mainly on The Color Code). Anyway, I’ve taken quite a few different tests and narrowed myself down to 4 or 5 options that I thoroughly explored and then decided that ISTp fits the best (I like the description on personality pages the best because it seems to fit me fairly well). However, I’m not really into sports at all (I am female if it makes any difference), which, from what I’ve read, is quite odd for an ISTp. On top of it, I am really interested in psychology, sociology, and most of all anthropology. In fact, I am a biological anthropology major. My areas of interest seem to correspond to the exact areas many ISTp description claim ISTps are not generally interested in. On the other hand, I am really into quality kitchen cutlery, play the cello, and like to come up with solutions to problems. I hate being rushed and ordered around more than anything in the world, I absolutely love pets and I can be quite the risk taker. I can be quite lazy unless something really interests me, in which case I can spend hours and hours on the topic until I lose my obsession with it. I have read that all of these are often associated with ISTps. So, assuming that I am an ISTp, to answer nihilist’s question “How do ISTPs react to the indefinite, ambiguous realms in psychology, philosophy, and sociology?” I personally find those topics to be fascinating. Yes, they are indefinite, but nothing is concrete. One decade we may think we know for certain how something works or why it is, but the next decade someone will discover something that completely throws out the previous theory. In my mind, its ambiguity makes it more trustworthy than a topic we think we know the absolute truth about. Realms such as sociology and anthropology leave room for improvement by acknowledging the fact that we can’t know anything for absolute certain, we can only come up with theories that seem to be accurate.

[Lurker]

Moved to Vomitorium

[Nomadic]

I'm pretty sure my flatmate is istp. I showed her her type profile and, although she conceded it did sound like her, she was very hostile and scathing about the theory in general. She got it into her head that it was an attempt to exhaustively categorise who she is.

We get on really well in terms of sense of humour, but it's a bad idea to get into a serious discussion - it always gravitates to points of disagreement which she then takes offence over.

So, based on that, I can see why there aren't many ISTPs interested in mbti etc. - they're just sceptical of such theories.

["?"]

Why is it so easy to find descriptions of INTP's and all other types except for ISTP's?

All sites say they (ISTP's) are misrepresented on the net. Why doesn't anyone take an interest in them and describe their type in much detail? Or are they so damn boring....?

If INTP's are anything to go by, ISTP's shouldn't be that unexciting???

Where the hell are they?There are just as many descriptions of ISTP as there are of INTP. As for why we're not around may be a SP core value of learning, applying then moving on. You can only talk about this subject from so many angles. I am always surprised that there are so many INTPs enjoying small talk.
I’ve been trying to figure out my personality type for a few months now, and recently settled on ISTp. My best friend is really into socionics and she is always trying to classify me, but comes up with types that just don't fit. I'm tired of being incorrectly typed, which is why I’m so determined to figure out my socionics type (I’m actually quite interested in personality testing myself, but have focused mainly on The Color Code).No description is going to be 100%. I think that Keirsey's Crafter is one of the least like me and most ISTPs that I have engaged agree that it's too stereotyped. They do resonnate with Berens' Analyzer/Operator (http://www.bestfittype.com/istp.html) and can appreciate why we easily confuse ourselves as INTs (http://www.bestfittype.com/istp_intpintj.html). Others that I like are Team Technologies (http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/myers-briggs/istp.htm), Lifexplore (http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/istp.htm) and this one (http://www.murraystate.edu/secsv/fye/istp.htm) which is actually from “Gifts Differing”.

[rhinosaur]

I'm grading papers. :mellow:

["?"]

One thing that I can say is that ISTPs have more in common with INTPs when using their dominant Ti. However when active, I think that ISTPs share more in common with INTJs because the Ni-Ti, Te-Se commonalities. So I would say that if you have ISTPs who are consistently posting, they're probably in a low energy mode.

[Curtis24]

They're not the type to get into theoretical discussions on Internet messageboards, let alone delve deeply into typology theory. Most of them are out working or in jail.

[edge walker]

And me as well…perhaps we state things so unequivocally to reenforce our own perspective and try to recruit others to our position…or perhaps we are just sure that we have objective insight into something until someone proves otherwise…
Actually, this is said to be something INTPs do, and I know I do it more than I would like to: I will draw a somewhat outlandish conclusion from a weird insight, then latch on to it and argue it to tread water even though I am myself vaguely uncomfortable with how far away from the coast I’ve gotten myself. So then I try to convince myself as much as the other person, in an attempt to get ground under my feet without reversing position. (That’s because I would feel the need to make clear which part of the framework I have accepted as wrong and what knowns I am retaining. Ego is a reason I am reluctant to do that of course, but another is that most people have no use for the concept of being partially right, so if you admit to be wrong at all they will consider the debate decided.)

That predisposition to try arguing uncertain positions in unequivocal terms is the handiwork of Ne.

["?"]

They're not the type to get into theoretical discussions on Internet messageboards, let alone delve deeply into typology theory. Most of them are out working or in jail.Hmmm.... that latter statement doesn't even sound stereotypical. Instead it appears prejudicial. Any numbers to coincide with that remark.

[rhinosaur]

One thing that I can say is that ISTPs have more in common with INTPs when using their dominant Ti. However when active, I think that ISTPs share more in common with INTJs because the Ni-Ti, Te-Se commonalities. So I would say that if you have ISTPs who are consistently posting, they're probably in a low energy mode.
Yeah, if I'm posting I'm procrastinating on something. Definitely a low-energy mode. Thinking itself is procrastination, too, most of the time.


They're not the type to get into theoretical discussions on Internet messageboards, let alone delve deeply into typology theory. Most of them are out working or in jail. Pfft.


Hmmm.... that latter statement doesn't even sound stereotypical. Instead it appears prejudicial. Any numbers to coincide with that remark.
I don't think he was being serious.

[Curtis24]

I wasn't being serious, but as I recall, '?', you don't believe that many people can accurately type themselves by taking the Keirsey or MBTI. So I was satirizing to you and others what it feels like to be told that you're not typical of your type, thus you misundertand MBTI.

[rhinosaur]

To those who know (or are) ISTPs: How do ISTPs react to the indefinite, ambiguous realms in psychology, philosophy, and sociology? If not anything else, a casual conversation regarding politics is bound to come up. I don't mind them, given the appropriate time and place. I rather enjoy thinking about and discussing abstract things occasionally, but there is a limit. Past that limit, I involuntarily shut off completely.


I am pretty much ISTP, and for me I find those topics (psycholgy & phylosophy, don't care about sociology ) to be worth following to the point they remain interesting, after that I just quit, normally with some general conclusion about the whole topic.Same here.


with beer. and the realization that the tipsy blonde across the bar is (to them) more interesting than "indefinite, ambiguous realms in psychology, philosophy, and sociology" could ever be.

sometimes I envy their simplicity just a little bit...

ScottMeh, depends on the time, place, and company. Plus brunettes are way hotter than blondes.


I should have originally posed a different question. How inclined are ISTPs to connect real life events with abstract concepts or some form of philosophy? Most events that transpire in the world have the potential to be repeatedly speculated upon.I am interested in connecting real-life events with abstract concepts, unless doing so appears to be pointless or useless.


I see to separate Q's here.

1. How inclined are ISTPs to connect real life events with abstract concepts or some form of philosophy?
I cant speak for all. But for me its mostly some general conclusion. I dont like saying A is the cause of B, i'd rather say A is a probable cause of B. So linking past the general statement is quite rear for me.

2. Most events that transpire in the world have the potential to be repeatedly speculated upon

Repeatedly speculated upon? Like forever? That switches me off. Even discussing and re-discussing things as "practical" as politics get's me off.

qft

[cripple]

I
Plus brunettes are way hotter than blondes.
QFT

I am interested in connecting real-life events with abstract concepts, unless doing so appears to be pointless or useless.
*looking at your post count*:rolleyes:

[Ferrus]

Getting laid probably.

Sigh.

["?"]

I wasn't being serious, but as I recall, '?', you don't believe that many people can accurately type themselves by taking the Keirsey or MBTI. So I was satirizing to you and others what it feels like to be told that you're not typical of your type, thus you misundertand MBTI.I don't think that I ever alluded to not being accurately typed by either system. I have said they're all different and test alone cannot confirm a type. You have to put a little effort into self-analyzing. Otherwise you are only resulting in your subjective opinion of yourself and it's quite clear that people easily misunderstand the questions. I know for me as ISTP and speaking to a particular ISFP many questions that can result in NJ (especially with Keirsey's sorter) may be misunderstood.

[Curtis24]

Its awfully hypocritical to believe you understand the system enough to type yourself but other people may not understand it well enough to type themselves. Who says you understand it better? You either accept that the type people test as is what they are; or that you yourself may have mistyped yourself.

["?"]

Its awfully hypocritical to believe you understand the system enough to type yourself but other people may not understand it well enough to type themselves. Who says you understand it better? You either accept that the type people test as is what they are; or that you yourself may have mistyped yourself.What are you on, or possibly off, medication-wise? Whether people want to type themselves correctly or not is not my business and I would like for you to show where I even alluded to someone doing it. What I have always said is based on someone providing a detailed description of themselves, is that it does not match the type they are proposing to be or when they ask I give my thoughts on ways of typing in lieu of continuing to take tests and allows you to take a more objective view of one's self. In fact I have refrained from even commenting on your assertion to being INFJ, based on years of conversing with them.

[adamaw11]

Could there be a natural opposition between INFJs and ISTPs? I like it!

Both types have things I like and things I dislike. Very much a person-person basis whether or not I will like a person of these types - this is interesting.

["?"]

Could there be a natural opposition between INFJs and ISTPs? I like it!

Both types have things I like and things I dislike. Very much a person-person basis whether or not I will like a person of these types - this is interesting.Actully from theoretical principle only, the two types have quite a bit in common since the cognitive functions succeed similarly, Si-Ti-Ni-Fe/Ni-Fe-Ti-Se. I could see where either of moderate to unhealthy may mistype as the other. Also they share the same interaction style and look at peoples motives as opposed to focusing on structures like INTJ/ISTJ.

[augi55]

Since looking into it, I have decided I am more IxTP than totally INTP. A lot of the things in ISTP descriptions describe me just as well as INTP ones. I also realized that every MBTI I have taken has rated me INTP with something along the lines of these percentages (where 0% = 50/50) I-90% N-10-15% T-55% P-85%. So this tells me my S and N are relatively close. I will still consider myself an INTP in most conversations and discussions but it still interesting to find out I have a lot of S in me as well.

[puzzled-observer]

Since looking into it, I have decided I am more IxTP than totally INTP. A lot of the things in ISTP descriptions describe me just as well as INTP ones. I also realized that every MBTI I have taken has rated me INTP with something along the lines of these percentages (where 0% = 50/50) I-90% N-10-15% T-55% P-85%. So this tells me my S and N are relatively close. I will still consider myself an INTP in most conversations and discussions but it still interesting to find out I have a lot of S in me as well.

condolences.

["?"]

Since looking into it, I have decided I am more IxTP than totally INTP. A lot of the things in ISTP descriptions describe me just as well as INTP ones. I also realized that every MBTI I have taken has rated me INTP with something along the lines of these percentages (where 0% = 50/50) I-90% N-10-15% T-55% P-85%. So this tells me my S and N are relatively close. I will still consider myself an INTP in most conversations and discussions but it still interesting to find out I have a lot of S in me as well.
condolences.Ditto Puzzled!

No seriously Augi, if you want to know then I would suggest determining your temperament. Most likely your secondary core values are either SP or SJ. I would think based on your response that you are most likely INTP since SPs in general would need to make the theory and process applicable to an immediate outcome. Only NTPs are willing to settle without knowing.

[augi55]

condolences.

Are you feeling sorry for me?

[adamaw11]

Let me explain, theres some egotistic f*ckers on here that think the more N you are the smarter you are. often people that think this turn out to be something other than INTP but are still trying to be, and keep trying to prove intelligence by showing how N they can be. /rant

INTPs are not lead Ns by definition.


btw I can see the funniness in the condolences comment, I'm not taking it seriously.

They're fairly rational findings Augi55. If you find some ISTPs to compare yourself with, you might seem more N to yourself, while comparing yourself with ENTPs you might find yourself seeming more S.

[Curtis24]

Might I ask, what type do I come across as, if not INFJ?

[poki]

I just realized I am ISTP.

I lean very heavily toward thinking, but everything learned is for a reason, not just theory. I like debunking theories just to prove that there useless, not to get a better understanding. I have always known who I am, but I am starting to learn why I am the way I am. I love to argue just to confuse people. Its fun to watch them get all heated and serious while I remain calm, especially when they realize you are argueing a side that you dont even agree with. I love practical jokes. Like taking a snapshot of the desktop, putting it as the background, and hiding the taskbar. Sit there and watch the person figure out why when they drag and drop an icon that it leaves an image or why the start button doesnt work. I live to have fun, cause chaos to make people think or :banghead:, and be spontaneous, but you will only see it if I like you. If I dont like you I come off as cold and dont usually even get a hello or anything. Hello usually brings chit-chat and I have no desire to chit-chat. I also rarely respond to posts unless I have something of value to add. In this case "HERE I AM!!!!!"

I am very stubborn, independent, and hate being controlled. I dont follow the crowd, I watch which way everyone is going so I can go in my own direction to prove that the road not taken is sometimes faster. The best way to get things done by me is to get me to like you and let me know what you like/want. Ask me nicely and it depends on how much I like you whether I do it or not, tell me what to do and it will either get done with resentment and reduce how much I like you or I just flat out wont do it.

I try to learn how the universe works, but only question as far as I feel is important. I have been told that I know so much useless facts, yet everyone seems to call me when they need to figure something out. So I am trying to figure out why everyone says its useless. My IQ is usually in the 155 to 165 range so I am not the dumb ISTP type.

When I am done thinking and figuring things out give me jetski so I can end up wiping out going 50 MPH in just shorts(luckily they dont fall off) and be like damn that hurt, but that was frickin fun, lets do it again faster!!!!! or holding on with one hand with body dragging in water doing donuts at full throttle(have to hold my shorts with other hand sometimes so they dont fall off:sadbanana:).

[luminous beam]

Yeah all the ISTP'ers I know are into all this stuff. If anybody wants to interact with one of these personality types on an internet forum, they need to hang at sites that focus their discussions on these things.

None of them would give a rat's ass for 99% of the discussions that happen on INTP-themed forums, and if you want to get them to talk about INTP'ers you'd have to talk about shooting an INTP'er, or running over one, or cutting one, etc...

lol Yes! I fully agree with this statement.

[luminous beam]

Hey guys... Hold on. I'm an ISTP but don't really feel the same. I think those are kind of extreme cases of ISTPs. As ISTP's are actually the odd ones out of the SP's. The description of ISTP's at typelogic.com includes the paragraph:

"...and unlike most ESPs they do not present an impression of constant activity. On the contrary, they lie dormant, saving their energy until a project or an adventure worthy of their time comes along--and then they launch themselves at it."

All of the ISTPs I know are not into outerspace and you have a spaceship avatar...just an observation.

[deuteros]

I'm pretty sure my brother is an ISTP. It seems that the older we get the less we have in common and the more aggravating he has become. I first noticed it a few years ago. My wife and I lived in another state at the time and I invited my brother to visit for a few days. I was ready for him to leave by the end. It seemed like every conversation turned into an argument. My brother is kind of a know-it-all (even though he is far from it) and it seems like he will have an opinion about something or think something is a certain way without really knowing "why." I guess I'm kind of know-it-all sometimes too but I never state a fact unless I'm 100% sure it's correct, and if I'm not 100% sure I will say so. He's also very flaky. He's the type of person who will commit to something only to back out at the last minute after he decides he doesn't want to do it anymore or never really wanted to do it in the first place. He is always telling my parents these things he is going to do that I know he will never get around to doing.

He is also the king of excuses. He has an excuse for everything and he drove my parents nuts when we were growing up.

We are both very stubborn, but in different ways. I'm stubborn in that you can never get me to do something I don't want to do. With my brother, he will simply ignore anything anyone tells him whether it's a little thing or a big thing. Here are two examples with both extremes:

Once he called me asking about cell phones. He liked the one I had because it was a smartphone and had a QWERTY keypad. I told him exactly what he needed to do. He needed to go to this one specific website and he could get a phone like mine for free instead of paying $150 at a cell phone store. Of course he ended up going to the cell phone store anyway and buying a shitty flip phone instead. When I asked him why he didn't buy through the website the reason he gave me made it really obvious that he had mostly ignored my advice and didn't bother to do any research at all into his purchase.

Another time he was looking for a job and my wife got him an interview at the company she works for. He decided to accept an offer for another job (which didn't pay as much and had lousy benefits) and back out about two hours before the interview. On top of that, instead of calling the interviewer to cancel he sent her an email which she didn't get until an hour or two after the interview was scheduled. Needless to say my wife was pissed that she had put her reputation on the line to recommend him only to have him back out at the last minute.

Anyway that's my brother. I'm not sure if flakiness and excuses are SP traits. I know a lot more about SJs and NTs.

[luminous beam]

ISTPs live on their own terms. I think, especially for F type ppl who usually tend to think of others before themselves, this can seem extremely selfish and like if you want to be a part of their lives, you have to live on their terms. Feelers are seen as fickle by others due to making decisions by the mood they are in...well, ISTPs can also be seen as fickle because they just kind of go with the flow and the moment...expecting either to make decisions set on stone isn't the best of ideas. not that it would never happen. it's kind of like being a free spirit, except not lol

[2hype]

I it's kind of like being a free spirit, except not lol
:happpy:

[rhinosaur]

I'm pretty sure my brother is an ISTP. It seems that the older we get the less we have in common and the more aggravating he has become. I first noticed it a few years ago. My wife and I lived in another state at the time and I invited my brother to visit for a few days. I was ready for him to leave by the end. It seemed like every conversation turned into an argument. My brother is kind of a know-it-all (even though he is far from it) and it seems like he will have an opinion about something or think something is a certain way without really knowing "why." I guess I'm kind of know-it-all sometimes too but I never state a fact unless I'm 100% sure it's correct, and if I'm not 100% sure I will say so. He's also very flaky. He's the type of person who will commit to something only to back out at the last minute after he decides he doesn't want to do it anymore or never really wanted to do it in the first place. He is always telling my parents these things he is going to do that I know he will never get around to doing.

He is also the king of excuses. He has an excuse for everything and he drove my parents nuts when we were growing up.

We are both very stubborn, but in different ways. I'm stubborn in that you can never get me to do something I don't want to do. With my brother, he will simply ignore anything anyone tells him whether it's a little thing or a big thing. Here are two examples with both extremes:

Once he called me asking about cell phones. He liked the one I had because it was a smartphone and had a QWERTY keypad. I told him exactly what he needed to do. He needed to go to this one specific website and he could get a phone like mine for free instead of paying $150 at a cell phone store. Of course he ended up going to the cell phone store anyway and buying a shitty flip phone instead. When I asked him why he didn't buy through the website the reason he gave me made it really obvious that he had mostly ignored my advice and didn't bother to do any research at all into his purchase.

Another time he was looking for a job and my wife got him an interview at the company she works for. He decided to accept an offer for another job (which didn't pay as much and had lousy benefits) and back out about two hours before the interview. On top of that, instead of calling the interviewer to cancel he sent her an email which she didn't get until an hour or two after the interview was scheduled. Needless to say my wife was pissed that she had put her reputation on the line to recommend him only to have him back out at the last minute.

Anyway that's my brother. I'm not sure if flakiness and excuses are SP traits. I know a lot more about SJs and NTs.

Unfortunately, many of these sound like problems I've had, as well. I just hope I'm not as bad as your brother sounds.

[MCYhon]

I think my bro and my father are ISTP or ISFP. I do not get along with them much -_-
And it also depends on their upbringing... and i think IS people may tend to get spoiled much easier since they see things as it is- that's what i think.

they are extremely selfish, way more than me.

but i have a ISFP friend

[deuteros]

Unfortunately, many of these sound like problems I've had, as well. I just hope I'm not as bad as your brother sounds.

He's not really as bad as it sounds because I only wrote about the negatives. However I've found it very strange that we don't really seem to have anything in common anymore. We have totally different interests in television, video games, music, and things we like to do for fun. Even if I know he will enjoy some TV show I like I can almost never convince him to check it out. For example I know he would love the Wire and I offered to burn a DVD of the first few episodes for him but he had no interest whatsoever. It was almost as if it didn't even matter what the show was, he wouldn't have wanted it regardless.

My dad is the same in a lot of ways but not quite as extreme. I suspect he is either an ISTP or INTP. He is always talking about some new thing he thinks he should do when everyone else knows he will never go through with it. He will also start on projects and never finish them. The two examples that stand out are he wanted to learn Italian and he wanted to get an amateur radio license. He lost interest in both after not too long. Does this sound like an ISTP? I know INTPs will lose interest in things but usually only after mastering them. They both also seem really uptight about certain stuff. My dad used to be a huge stoner when he was in college but he seems really ashamed of it today and is reluctant to talk about it.

However neither my brother or my dad have that "thirst for adventure" that seems to be common among SPs, although they do seem to make decisions without really thinking them all the way through sometimes.

[rhinosaur]

He's not really as bad as it sounds because I only wrote about the negatives. However I've found it very strange that we don't really seem to have anything in common anymore. We have totally different interests in television, video games, music, and things we like to do for fun. Even if I know he will enjoy some TV show I like I can almost never convince him to check it out. For example I know he would love the Wire and I offered to burn a DVD of the first few episodes for him but he had no interest whatsoever. It was almost as if it didn't even matter what the show was, he wouldn't have wanted it regardless.

Ouch. When I do that, it's not usually a totally conscious thing, but I think it could either mean one of two things:

1) No one but me fully understands my taste in music, and cannot "discover" things for me -- I have to discover them for myself. I have had many experiences when people have given me burned CDs or somesuch, and I find more often than not they are acting on some kind of preconceived notion of the kind of music I enjoy, which is usually wrong. Although they've missed the mark, I still feel obligated to express my appreciation, and attempt to enjoy the music they've given me, because the act of giving is an act of kindness and love. I wind up in a cycle of resentment, and the end result is that I don't want anyone to recommend music for me, unless I completely trust their judgment, which is pretty rare. I can count on two, maybe three, fingers, the people I would completely trust to introduce new music into my life.

2) He is attempting to distance himself from you, possibly for some kind of emotional self-preservation. I've done this before, too, but it's kind of painful to bring back those memories. In all the examples I can remember, there wound up being something deeper that I am subconsciously trying to avoid. For example, I distanced myself from my sister when I was trying to deal with my father's death, many years afterward. It took me several more years to realize what I was doing, and why.


My dad is the same in a lot of ways but not quite as extreme. I suspect he is either an ISTP or INTP. He is always talking about some new thing he thinks he should do when everyone else knows he will never go through with it. He will also start on projects and never finish them. The two examples that stand out are he wanted to learn Italian and he wanted to get an amateur radio license. He lost interest in both after not too long. Does this sound like an ISTP? I know INTPs will lose interest in things but usually only after mastering them. They both also seem really uptight about certain stuff. My dad used to be a huge stoner when he was in college but he seems really ashamed of it today and is reluctant to talk about it.

However neither my brother or my dad have that "thirst for adventure" that seems to be common among SPs, although they do seem to make decisions without really thinking them all the way through sometimes.

I do this a lot, also. It's a very difficult habit to break, and your father and brother may not realize how it comes across to other people. Often, when I say I'm going to start something, It's more like I'm voicing that I have a vested interest in starting something. Sometimes I do actually start it, and sometimes I don't. Although it can occasionally be difficult to predict whether or not I will actually start, with experience I've learned to tell the difference between things that are fleeting interests, moderate interests, and deep interests.

[edge walker]

I know INTPs will lose interest in things but usually only after mastering them.
Not quite. Competence is always a goal; proficiency rarely is. I tend to lose interest once I have figured out what the end result would look like, even if I am a long way from having achieved it.

[deuteros]

Not quite. Competence is always a goal; proficiency rarely is. I tend to lose interest once I have figured out what the end result would look like, even if I am a long way from having achieved it.

That's probably true. However, at least for me, if I'm really into something I'm not likely to lose interest until there's nothing else to learn.

[deuteros]

I do this a lot, also. It's a very difficult habit to break, and your father and brother may not realize how it comes across to other people. Often, when I say I'm going to start something, It's more like I'm voicing that I have a vested interest in starting something. Sometimes I do actually start it, and sometimes I don't. Although it can occasionally be difficult to predict whether or not I will actually start, with experience I've learned to tell the difference between things that are fleeting interests, moderate interests, and deep interests.

There's a difference between my brother and my dad. My dad will talk about stuff he wants to do but he is usually only half serious most of the time and never pursues them further. When my brother gets an idea in his head he is very serious about it and has every intention of carrying it out even though I know he will never go through with it.

[rhinosaur]

There's a difference between my brother and my dad. My dad will talk about stuff he wants to do but he is usually only half serious most of the time and never pursues them further. When my brother gets an idea in his head he is very serious about it and has every intention of carrying it out even though I know he will never go through with it.

That might be because your dad is older than your brother (at least I hope he's older than your brother! :p) and has mellowed out a little bit.

[pardo]

I just realized I am ISTP.

I lean very heavily toward thinking, but everything learned is for a reason, not just theory. I like debunking theories just to prove that there useless, not to get a better understanding. I have always known who I am, but I am starting to learn why I am the way I am. I love to argue just to confuse people. Its fun to watch them get all heated and serious while I remain calm, especially when they realize you are argueing a side that you dont even agree with. I love practical jokes. Like taking a snapshot of the desktop, putting it as the background, and hiding the taskbar. Sit there and watch the person figure out why when they drag and drop an icon that it leaves an image or why the start button doesnt work. I live to have fun, cause chaos to make people think or :banghead:, and be spontaneous, but you will only see it if I like you. If I dont like you I come off as cold and dont usually even get a hello or anything. Hello usually brings chit-chat and I have no desire to chit-chat. I also rarely respond to posts unless I have something of value to add. In this case "HERE I AM!!!!!"

I am very stubborn, independent, and hate being controlled. I dont follow the crowd, I watch which way everyone is going so I can go in my own direction to prove that the road not taken is sometimes faster. The best way to get things done by me is to get me to like you and let me know what you like/want. Ask me nicely and it depends on how much I like you whether I do it or not, tell me what to do and it will either get done with resentment and reduce how much I like you or I just flat out wont do it.

I try to learn how the universe works, but only question as far as I feel is important. I have been told that I know so much useless facts, yet everyone seems to call me when they need to figure something out. So I am trying to figure out why everyone says its useless. My IQ is usually in the 155 to 165 range so I am not the dumb ISTP type.

When I am done thinking and figuring things out give me jetski so I can end up wiping out going 50 MPH in just shorts(luckily they dont fall off) and be like damn that hurt, but that was frickin fun, lets do it again faster!!!!! or holding on with one hand with body dragging in water doing donuts at full throttle(have to hold my shorts with other hand sometimes so they dont fall off:sadbanana:).


I am ISTP too & I liek all of the above
(I also use "liek" on purpose, to piss off the language perfectionists)

[Delilah]

(I also use "liek" on purpose, to piss off the language perfectionists)

It works, and do you know why?

Because it is incredibly annoying, immature, and stupid.

[edge walker]

(I also use “liek” on purpose, to piss off the language perfectionists)
Heh. Note that there aren’t only people people who get pissed off and people who don’t care. There are also those who will simply deduct points from your “does this person have something readworthy to say” rank, without otherwise caring or passing comment.

[poki]

Heh. Note that there aren’t only people people who get pissed off and people who don’t care. There are also those who will simply deduct points from your “does this person have something readworthy to say” rank, without otherwise caring or passing comment.

Some of the smartest people are stupid.

[Curtis24]

Some of the smartest people are stupid.

No, that's a myth propagated by not-smart people.

[Meliora]

The most stereotypical ISTP's = All the guys on the show "Deadliest Catch"

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadliest_Catch)

[edge walker]

Some of the smartest people are stupid.
Intelligence is not one-dimensional.

[kendoiwan]

:ph34r:

[Pizza Face]

How do I know if I am ISTP?

[poki]

I type on here to communicate my point, If you understand my point I suceeded in communicating. I can be a very intelligent person and make careless mistakes or do things that make me appear stupid while i am still a very intelligent person. The point of communicating is to get your thought or idea across, it is not to speak proper english(whatever that is).

Sorry to burst your bubble, but no matter how intelligent you are, you are also stupid. Intelligence is a measure that has no real upper bounds. Do you lack stupidity?

I am Poki and while I score high on IQ tests [hangs head in shame]I have stupid moments.

[edge walker]

You don’t seem to be making a lot of mistakes either way, which seems to reinforce what I said more than your argument manages to debunk it…

I do not particularly care about occasional unintended mistakes. Everyone makes those; I do too. (I tend to edit myself so much that I may wreck the structure of some sentence without noticing – real howlers sometimes.) To get hung up on inconsequential mistakes is a weakness of mind.

But to make irritating mistakes on purpose indicates that the writer is more intent on communicating their disregard either for clarity in communication or for pedantry than they are intent on talking about the subject at hand. They should be willing to accept that some people will – shock horror – actually notice what they are conveying, even though it’s not the face value content of their message, and react accordingly.

If you are primarily interested in parading around your rebellion rather than in talking about the topic, you are quite simply, well, off topic.

If you stick to the topic, so will I. Promise.

[poki]

I wrote a decent size reply, but the submit failed:banghead: So here it is sweet, short, and condensed. I am not rebelling, one of my pet peeves is judging others based on things superficial to the topic being discussed. Judging someones read worthyness of a topic should not have anything to do with spelling or grammar and yes I realize the correction of my use of there and their was in fun, it was just the comment below that hit the cord.


Heh. Note that there aren’t only people people who get pissed off and people who don’t care. There are also those who will simply deduct points from your “does this person have something readworthy to say” rank, without otherwise caring or passing comment.

I am done, promise.

Back to topic..... "Here I am", unless I get kicked off the forum, then it will be "there I went".

[edge walker]

one of my pet peeves is judging others based on things superficial to the topic being discussed. Judging someone’s read worthiness of a topic should not have anything to do with spelling or grammar
Judging their argument should not have to do with spelling or grammar, no. Read worthiness is more complex. If the spelling and grammar is so atrocious that it takes effort to even decipher the argument (or contribution in general) in the first place, then it must be something really freaking smart to make it worth my bother. And most of the time it’s not.

(I think we’re actually more or less in agreement.)

[Mtsui]

Where the hell are they?

at home sleeping

[poki]

I would respond more but everytime I click on it I just think "here I am" and thats actually mis leading because by the time you read this I will probably no longer be here, I would post my activities for the day, but I kinda just do whatever I feel like it so I really have no idea where I will be when your reading this. One day I will try to figure out why I feel the way I do, but right now I dont feel like it.

[Ziphead]

I think that it's quite obvious why ISTPs don't have the same amount of representation on the internet with their own forums etc. All the ISTPs I've met have been very much engaged with the physical world around them and not very interested in sitting around talking to people about things outside their fields of interests. They're not very social people to begin with, and especially not if the social interaction is non-physical.

As others have said in this thread, a normal ISTP probably spends a lot of time researching his interests on the internet, but I have a feeling that almost any ISTP would simply not see the point of talking to people like himself in some forum if they didn't happen to share some of his interests. The exception would be if an ISTP took an interest in psychology and personality issues, but that would not be a typical thing for an ISTP to delve into, since they tend to focus on more tangible things.

We INTPs on the other hand are narcissistic types, hopelessly stuck on exploring our own minds, obsessively thinking about ourselves and now and then for the same narcissistic purposes wanting to compare our own minds to the minds of others. So for people like us, it's quite natural to waste our lives on forums like this one. I often envy my ISTP friends who actually go out and do real stuff in the real world instead...

["?"]

ISTP Description:
Like the other Artisans, Crafters live a life is artful action, but their particular nature is most easily seen in their mastery of tools of any and all kinds, from microscopic drill to supersonic jet, from potter's wheel to grand piano, from a camera to a clarinet. Sometimes Crafters will use their body as a tool. A tool is any implement that extends or varies our human powers -- vehicles, musical instruments, cutting devices, and weapons are just four of the many categories of the tools that surround us. Most of us use tools in some capacity, of course, but Crafters (only ten per cent of the general population) are the true virtuosos of tool work, with a natural ability to command tools, to bend them to their wishes, and to become adept at all the crafts requiring tool skills. Even from an early age Crafters are drawn to tools as to a magnet; tools fall into their hands demanding use, and they must manipulate them. Indeed, if a given tool, whether scalpel or earthmover, is operated with a precision that defies belief, that operator is likely an Crafter.That's more a SP description of someone who happens to be an introverted SP. Nevertheless the descriptions by Keirsey (or derived from his work are poorly written since as I have argued as of late, Keirsey seems to have focused on the other introverted types dominant function, but focused on the introverted SPs by their auxiliary function Se. Although Linda V. Berens was a student of Keirsey’s she and Dario Nardi have written the first person descriptions which do fit me. Berens has perfected the SP Artisan information which she has now dubbed the temperament “Improviser”. This is how ISTPs describe themselves to her. Notice no mention of mechanics, sky diving or any of the other stereotypical information from Keirsey’s description:
Inside I am continually reworking an issue. I am constantly open to new directions, always tweaking and bringing in new information. I solve a problem by looking at all the angles, probably whatever side I need to. There is an answer, and I just need to get to the best way to figure it out—to meet my objectives and give it to people how it is without annoying anyone.

To work with difficult situations I become very logical and very analytical, and I look to see where things fit. I always watch and if there’s a problem, I go back inside myself to see what may need to be done and how best to approach a situation. I like to find a technique.

The observational part of me is the ability to see when an opportunity exists and to actually act on it and make things a little bit better. I like to choose the timing for when it’s appropriate to say or do something. I spend a lot of time considering scenarios before I make decisions. I’ll usually go with a hunch, my intuition, what’s the most likely cause. I do my best problem solving in my head away from whatever it is. I step back outside of things, think for a while, and make adjustments—could this be better than that, how do these react, and how does the whole system go together? I’m willing to do the upfront work, which makes it expedient because I never have to repeat it.

In my work, I don’t want to be just doing stuff for the sake of doing stuff. I like to accomplish things—make a contribution. That’s real important. I take a “do it” type of approach. It’s very practical. It’s very here and now. That does not mean I don’t take into consideration the big picture and what’s down the road and what’s best for the organization, but at the same time my big focus is “let’s get this show on the road and let’s do it.” I do it as well as I can. Then I think very well on my feet. I can be quick with the verbal comeback—I like the impact. I just get in there and do it, and whatever job I go into, I hit the ground running. And I’m very competitive, often with myself. I tie one hand behind my back and see if I can still do it.

I rarely work on one thing at a time. I get an idea and chase it down. I’m always studying—not just books but looking at what interests me. I customize everything I touch; people tell me I can’t do something, and I say sure I can. And I like time to just sit down and enjoy. But when I have too much time I tend to just pick away at things. I am really much better when there is a deadline.

I look at the world as a place to enjoy. I like things to smell good, taste good, look and feel good. I love exploring the outdoors. The peace and stillness, the little noises and different views. I feel really comfortable out there. I have no desire to be with people when I don’t know anybody. It’s a delightful sensation when I see an animal.

I don’t like the social stuff. It takes too much time, too much energy. I’m bored. I can’t figure out how to make myself more relaxed, and I never really know what I’m supposed to be saying. I have only a few close friends that I really see a lot. Yet people have seen me as someone very lively and talkative. That’s the part of me that likes life to be an adventure.

I like flexibility in what I do. Fun means something that interests me. Organized things don’t come to me easily, but I can do them. I’ve always found ways to make things fun. It’s a game to make sure you can come to the next point where you have freedom again There’s something insincere about doing something just because of somebody or something else. What I do has to make sense, have impact. I cannot stand just busy work. It has to be meaningful. I have an incredible amount of enthusiasm and passion for certain things that I do and want to see done.

[poki]

That's more a SP description of someone who happens to be an introverted SP. Nevertheless the descriptions by Keirsey (or derived from his work are poorly written since as I have argued as of late, Keirsey seems to have focused on the other introverted types dominant function, but focused on the introverted SPs by their auxiliary function Se. Although Linda V. Berens was a student of Keirsey’s she and Dario Nardi have written the first person descriptions which do fit me. Berens has perfected the SP Artisan information which she has now dubbed the temperament “Improviser”. This is how ISTPs describe themselves to her. Notice no mention of mechanics, sky diving or any of the other stereotypical information from Keirsey’s description:

ISTPs dont have an interest in MBTI because it was written from a Ne perspective. We look at it and say yeah, thats me, but I already know what I am like. Your basically telling me what I know. Where is the why and how does it all relate to the world? None of it is explained in a Se perspective. We have to grab pieces from here and there and recreate the idea from an SP perspective and thats alot of work.

[edge walker]

Where is the why and how does it all relate to the world? None of it is explained in a Se perspective. We have to grab pieces from here and there and recreate the idea from an SP perspective and thats alot of work.
Fascinating observation. Can you give a concrete example of the sort of thing you mean?

[poki]

Fascinating observation. Can you give a concrete example of the sort of thing you mean?

Reading Ne things confuse the hell out of me. To an Se theories and abstract ideas are to be proven. We ar not able to just take in an idea and accept it as fact, thats not how our brain works. To us theory without facts is useless. Ne will explore the frontier and go into the unkown, I dont have Ne I cant go into the uknown. I cant just accept things as fact that are not known. Even as I learn MBTI I dont accept the theory, my Ni questions there thinking because what I have read and what I have seen in other people dont always match.

To give an example. I cant except a function order simply for the fact that its just preference. I have to dig into why do they have that preference. I start questioning things like are ISTP Ti dominant because they like being in there head or is it because they fear being questioned on there thought. I lean towards the second one because around those I feel comfortable I am very talkative and act like an ESTP. but is it that our Ni is stronger than an inferior ESTP Ni and it causes use to question ourselves more? Or is it ESTP tertiary Fe that allows them to understand how we affect people better and they are more comfortable in interacting with the world. I tend to do and act on Se without spending alot of time in Ti when I am around people I am comfortable with. But when I am bored or when I am trying to figure things out I spend alot of time in Ti. And the shadow thing. Its not simply enough to know I have a shadow and that its ENFJ. I have to relate the function of a shadow to how I am and the functions of an ISTP. Then I go off into wondering if an ENFJ and an ISTP are one in the same since a unhealthy ISTP can come off as ENFJ and an unhealthy ENFJ can come off as ISTP. So is it just that we are the same, but leaned towards one or the other because of our upbringing and our intelligence(how stong our Ti is).

[poki]

Reading Ne things confuse the hell out of me. To an Se theories and abstract ideas are to be proven. We ar not able to just take in an idea and accept it as fact, thats not how our brain works. To us theory without facts is useless. Ne will explore the frontier and go into the unkown, I dont have Ne I cant go into the uknown. I cant just accept things as fact that are not known. Even as I learn MBTI I dont accept the theory, my Ni questions there thinking because what I have read and what I have seen in other people dont always match.

To give an example. I cant except a function order simply for the fact that its just preference. I have to dig into why do they have that preference. I start questioning things like are ISTP Ti dominant because they like being in there head or is it because they fear being questioned on there thought. I lean towards the second one because around those I feel comfortable I am very talkative and act like an ESTP. but is it that our Ni is stronger than an inferior ESTP Ni and it causes use to question ourselves more? Or is it ESTP tertiary Fe that allows them to understand how we affect people better and they are more comfortable in interacting with the world. I tend to do and act on Se without spending alot of time in Ti when I am around people I am comfortable with. But when I am bored or when I am trying to figure things out I spend alot of time in Ti. And the shadow thing. Its not simply enough to know I have a shadow and that its ENFJ. I have to relate the function of a shadow to how I am and the functions of an ISTP. Then I go off into wondering if an ENFJ and an ISTP are one in the same since a unhealthy ISTP can come off as ENFJ and an unhealthy ENFJ can come off as ISTP. So is it just that we are the same, but leaned towards one or the other because of our upbringing and our intelligence(how stong our Ti is).

I guess what I mean is I need concrete information. There is so much conflicting information I basically have to grab bits and pieces from everywhere and recreate my own theory in a way that I can apply it. When applying it to real life I dont have boxes that people go into, I use it as a guideline and then apply my understanding of how everything ties together to create a custom solution.

[kendoiwan]

I guess what I mean is I need concrete information. There is so much conflicting information I basically have to grab bits and pieces from everywhere and recreate my own theory in a way that I can apply it. When applying it to real life I dont have boxes that people go into, I use it as a guideline and then apply my understanding of how everything ties together to create a custom solution.

Seconded.

[kendoiwan]

I have to dig into why do they have that preference. I start questioning things like are ISTP Ti dominant because they like being in their head or is it because they fear being questioned on their thought.

Personally I just don't like explaining things to people. I find people to be close-minded and dogmatic. Unless they have expressed a view on a given subject I generally won't speak on it. I find selling anyone on anything to be draining. It's a lot safer inside my head.

Also I just don't see the point in a lot of social rituals. So in those type of circumstances, after I've done the whole, how you doing routine, unless I have something of consequence to say, I'd just as soon say nothing.


Reading Ne things confuse the hell out of me. To an Se theories and abstract ideas are to be proven. We ar not able to just take in an idea and accept it as fact, thats not how our brain works. To us theory without facts is useless. Ne will explore the frontier and go into the unkown, I dont have Ne I cant go into the uknown. I cant just accept things as fact that are not known. Even as I learn MBTI I dont accept the theory, my Ni questions there thinking because what I have read and what I have seen in other people dont always match.


Agreed. I can't think of any theory I believe that isn't supported by a myriad of facts. In fact I don't understand how INTPs ignore facts that don't fall in line with their theories.

[edge walker]

I guess what I mean is I need concrete information. There is so much conflicting information I basically have to grab bits and pieces from everywhere and recreate my own theory in a way that I can apply it. When applying it to real life I dont have boxes that people go into, I use it as a guideline and then apply my understanding of how everything ties together to create a custom solution.
Hmm, that description seems to mix Ti aspects into the Se/Ne thing -- I can definitely relate to that, at least to having to construct the theory in my head for myself.

I am trying to think of how my ESTP colleague processes -- he is no less capable of Ti abstraction than me but we always have an extremely hard time communicating.

Maybe it's more that Ti+Se builds understanding bottom-up where Ti+Ne builds it top-down? I look for a big picture first so I can relate the details to that as they come in; I suppose Ti+Se processing wants more details first, from which you build upward to a more abstract understanding? Does that sound right?

[cripple]

To us theory without facts is useless. Ne will explore the frontier and go into the unkown, I dont have Ne I cant go into the uknown. I cant just accept things as fact that are not known.

I view facts mostly as stuff to be proven wrong. Or at least show that they might not be facts after all.

[poki]

Hmm, that description seems to mix Ti aspects into the Se/Ne thing -- I can definitely relate to that, at least to having to construct the theory in my head for myself.

I am trying to think of how my ESTP colleague processes -- he is no less capable of Ti abstraction than me but we always have an extremely hard time communicating.

Maybe it's more that Ti+Se builds understanding bottom-up where Ti+Ne builds it top-down? I look for a big picture first so I can relate the details to that as they come in; I suppose Ti+Se processing wants more details first, from which you build upward to a more abstract understanding? Does that sound right?

That sounds pretty good. The way I see it is Ne focuses on ideas or the big picture and turns it into fact. Se focuses on facts and turns it into ideas or a big picture.


I view facts mostly as stuff to be proven wrong. Or at least show that they might not be facts after all.

Thats why I am active on an INTP forum. I like to put out my thoughts and see if you guess can knock it down. If you do I know I need to go back and figure things out more. I prefer to disprove theory with facts.

[poki]

Agreed. I can't think of any theory I believe that isn't supported by a myriad of facts. In fact I don't understand how INTPs ignore facts that don't fall in line with their theories.

When an INTP ignores facts they start going down a different path, but that path might still have bits of truth. Their greatness is to ignore some facts and focus on the big picture, yes everything might not fit, but they arent looking to apply it to the real world and come up with a solution to particular problem, they are looking to understand and sometimes to understand the unexplored you have to assume certain things and see where it takes you.

[Curtis24]

That's more a SP description of someone who happens to be an introverted SP. Nevertheless the descriptions by Keirsey (or derived from his work are poorly written since as I have argued as of late, Keirsey seems to have focused on the other introverted types dominant function, but focused on the introverted SPs by their auxiliary function Se. Although Linda V. Berens was a student of Keirsey’s she and Dario Nardi have written the first person descriptions which do fit me. Berens has perfected the SP Artisan information which she has now dubbed the temperament “Improviser”. This is how ISTPs describe themselves to her. Notice no mention of mechanics, sky diving or any of the other stereotypical information from Keirsey’s description:

Very interesting. I can remember arguing with you about this some time ago. After reading Keirsey's book, I'd have to say I now agree with your position. Keirsey's classifications are limiting and too generalized.

["?"]

Sorry Poki and other ISTPs, but I have to disagree with you on the fact that I need concrete information all of the time. It would be great to have which would preclude my having to dig deeper, however I am okay with theory as long as it's applicable. In that case I see myself no different than INTJs. Also you allude to the Se being the culprit. I don't dominate with Se and in fact like all types the auxiliary function can be used defensively or poorly in many cases. I dominate using Ti. There is no information that I am aware of that says Ti dominant types cannot decipher theory. Ask INTPs.

[edge walker]

Sorry Poki and other ISTPs, but I have to disagree with you on the fact that I need concrete information all of the time.
Would you also disagree on the Ti+Se=bottom-up / Ti+Ne=top-down theory-building process I inferred? I know I feel somewhat lost when all I am given is a long series of details building up to a big picture; I need a bit of a map first to see where the details fit in. If that description is correct, it would mean something along the lines that starting from such a map would feel relatively meaningless to you until details flesh it out. Does that sound correct?

[poki]

Sorry Poki and other ISTPs, but I have to disagree with you on the fact that I need concrete information all of the time. It would be great to have which would preclude my having to dig deeper, however I am okay with theory as long as it's applicable. In that case I see myself no different than INTJs. Also you allude to the Se being the culprit. I don't dominate with Se and in fact like all types the auxiliary function can be used defensively or poorly in many cases. I dominate using Ti. There is no information that I am aware of that says Ti dominant types cannot decipher theory. Ask INTPs.

Yes we do have to bring in some theory. We have to start somewhere, but we question the theory, we dont hold it to be the truth. Its like jumping points, we always have to go back to sensory information to see how it applies to the world. You are correct we have to "Decipher" it. It is not in the way we understand. The reason we can "live for the moment" is because we believe our internal theory to be truth because we have concrete information to back it up. Every theory has some truth, we have to "decipher" the truth from the assumptions.

["?"]

Every theory has some truth, we have to "decipher" the truth from the assumptions.Agreed, but from everything that I have read in particularly descriptions from "Gifts Differing", this is Ti, not Se. Therefore we usually equally with INTPs.

[poki]

Agreed, but from everything that I have read in particularly descriptions from "Gifts Differing", this is Ti, not Se. Therefore we usually equally with INTPs.

Yes, the Se part is gathering the truth, the Ne part is gathering the concept. We are equal with INTPs with regard to thinking. When it comes to things like MBTI there is alot more that is left to assumption though, they have alot more to grab ahold to. We dont understand humans as much as we understand something we have built. We have a harder time understanding things we dont create because we HAVE TO make more assumptions and ignore data that doesnt fit perfect which causes us to question it more. This means we need to actually dig deeper into parts of it to actually understand because we need to figure out the truths. This is when we start questioning the validity of the assumptions that the concept is based on.

["?"]

Yes, the Se part is gathering the truth, the Ne part is gathering the concept. We are equal with INTPs with regard to thinking. When it comes to things like MBTI there is alot more that is left to assumption though, they have alot more to grab ahold to. We dont understand humans as much as we understand something we have built. We have a harder time understanding things we dont create because we HAVE TO make more assumptions and ignore data that doesnt fit perfect which causes us to question it more. This means we need to actually dig deeper into parts of it to actually understand because we need to figure out the truths. This is when we start questioning the validity of the assumptions that the concept is based on.Hmmm.... let me digest that, but I think you're right.

[b4b]

A year ago I thought I was an INTP....then I started to realize that many of the subjects here don't interest me, the descriptions don't really fit me, etc...so I left this forum, didn't bother to dig any deeper.
A while ago I got interested in typology again (wish to improve in my job, knowing my strengths and weaknesses should help), took various tests again (alone and with family) and scored ISTP.
I never thought I could be one, because the type description is so masculine (weapons, dangerous sports, etc) and I consider myself very feminine....but then I do love playing paintball, racquetball, anything fun, and I'm having a hard time to convince my gfs to play with me! I wish there was no speed limit too.:p I actively trade stocks/futures during the day, love the adrenaline rush. I paint portraits and do graphics too. Love nature, animals, and good looking things...:grin:
I can relate to most of the things written by Poki...

ok, that's it for now...I'm awake and bored

["?"]

We dont understand humans as much as we understand something we have built. We have a harder time understanding things we dont create because we HAVE TO make more assumptions and ignore data that doesnt fit perfect which causes us to question it more. This means we need to actually dig deeper into parts of it to actually understand because we need to figure out the truths. This is when we start questioning the validity of the assumptions that the concept is based on.And I think this is where the Ti comes in for me in not needing to understand humans when it comes to type, but merely understanding the principles of type. This is why I seem to be arguing points made by many intuitive types since they enjoy making that leap, but I go back to the basic principles and see the flaws of how their concepts are contradictive of basic principles of type. Good points Poki.

[NeverQuit]

It is my belief that perhaps INTP's or NT's often state things in absolute terms or in undeniable terms as a result of their understanding of having insight into situations. I believe "S" and others sometimes take this as being a "know it all" or stating things unequivocally and I think in an effort to present their position as being noteworthy (or other reasons, I am not totally sure) sometimes people will automatically disagree with someone just for the sake of disagreement...it is like trying to show the person they are not automatically right, I think...this has been my experience in the past too and with others I have known...it seems very annoying because they are disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing and without any real basis in logic...anyway, I lknow what you are talking about, it is highly frustrating...

This is fairly true, at least for me. Sometimes I think that NT's think they know what they're talking about when they don't. Like I said, this is only in some cases, I'm by no means saying NT's are wrong all the time because that's definitely not true lol.

[poki]

This is fairly true, at least for me. Sometimes I think that NT's think they know what they're talking about when they don't. Like I said, this is only in some cases, I'm by no means saying NT's are wrong all the time because that's definitely not true lol.

I have learned alot on here about INTP vs ISTP. Its really interesting because you can really start to distinguish between Ne-Si and Se-Ni and you even start to understand why an ISTP can confuse themselves with INTP and so forth.

I notice a few people on here that claim to be INTP yet from there writing they come across as ISTP. The key is that we write what we think internally, we dont write what we perceive externally. S is about how things are different, how things change. If you notice how a NT writes it is about how things are different, this is there Si. There writing goes back and forth alot. Look at an ISTP writing and it looks more like a theory. The Ne will pull in something that relates and there Ti-Si will seperate it into how its different. Now notice how an ISTP writes. We notice differences and our Ti-Ni relates it to what we think. ISTP with Ni likes to relate things internally so a topic that they cant relate to really doesnt hold alot of interest with Ti.

Let me know if you notice this difference.

[digesthisickness]

I have learned alot on here about INTP vs ISTP. Its really interesting because you can really start to distinguish between Ne-Si and Se-Ni and you even start to understand why an ISTP can confuse themselves with INTP and so forth.

I notice a few people on here that claim to be INTP yet from there writing they come across as ISTP. The key is that we write what we think internally, we dont write what we perceive externally. S is about how things are different, how things change. If you notice how a NT writes it is about how things are different, this is there Si. There writing goes back and forth alot. Look at an ISTP writing and it looks more like a theory. The Ne will pull in something that relates and there Ti-Si will seperate it into how its different. Now notice how an ISTP writes. We notice differences and our Ti-Ni relates it to what we think. ISTP with Ni likes to relate things internally so a topic that they cant relate to really doesnt hold alot of interest with Ti.

Let me know if you notice this difference.

could you give an example of what you're speaking of?

[poki]

Here are 2 examples. To me one sounds like an Si(INTP) the other sounds like Ni(ISTP). One contains alot of back and forth or differences which I believe is Si. The other kinda goes on where everything relates which I believe is Ni. Both claim to be INTP.


the INTP fails because their hardwired to see through fantasy and the myth of the ego. Though at the same time their privy to the same lazyness and lack of motivation that pervades everyone of this media and garbage saturated culture. So while they see that indeed their is no such thing as the shell (ego, the characters we take on to save us socially) they are unwilling to develop themselves as people because of this stubborn feeling of the ego being fake and thus never develop themselves, because the feel they are playing into this "game". One must accept truly that "hippie" idea! ( i say hippie idea, because it resonates) that we are all one and that yes the characters we believe ourselves to be are fake. Then when you have made this leap then you can begin living. You must circumnavigate the fantasy the world and accept that you will not fall off the edges.


I have, but I also had this obsession (understatement) with trying to find a formula for doing it in every social situation, which was obviously incredibly draining and disapointing. It used to really bother me because i believed that people saw me as an arrogant guy who thought he was too cool to talk to people... which was true in some cases but mostly because i didnt know what to say haha anyways, it made me hate myself... A lot of this had to do with my older brother being really extraverted/out-going and my mother pointing out how i wasnt, n hinting that it was a fault in my personality...its funny though how she ended up paying for my therapy sessions haha Now that iv accepted it, which took a REAALLLY LOOONG TIIME, and a lot of painful learning, im fine with being quiet and waiting for my time to say something, and the result is usually pleasing. Although i still get a kind of social anxiety around people im not comfortable with, i dont care as much about how they see me, because i know the truth.

[poki]

It finally hit me in regards to how to word what I am trying to get across. Si is vision. The better the understanding the more vivid the vision. When an INTP has a lack of understanding there writing is alot more back and forth, it has alot of contrast, as there understanding gets better thier writing becomes alot more vivd and they can flesh out the details instead of so much back and forth. They focus on parts that are not so well defined and try to bring out the detail.

Ni is how things relate, we dont care so much about the detail. Se is what picks up the detail and we filter out the vividness to get a better understanding of the big picture. ISTP writing lacks this vividness and we seem simpler because we internally dont care about the detail that INTP types think about.

[slacker]

Maybe you're seeing the framework building and categorizing of the Si? Si asks for information to fill in certain pieces, which is fetched by Ne and tested (giving the appearance of back&forth).


alot more back and forth, it has alot of contrast, as there understanding gets better thier writing becomes alot more vivd and they can flesh out the details instead of so much back and forth. They focus on parts that are not so well defined and try to bring out the detail.

Ni is how things relate, we dont care so much about the detail. Se is what picks up the detail and we filter out the vividness to get a better understanding of the big picture. ISTP writing lacks this vividness and we seem simpler because we internally dont care about the detail that INTP types think about.
In your example snippets, I can only differentiate based on Ne vs. Se; I can't really "see" the Si or Ni. What parts of the snippets come across as especially Si or Ni? Can you actually understand the Ni of other ISTPs?

I understand how the Ni-Ti nexus works for an INFJ (which I see as being an extremely useful configuration), but I don't quite understand how a Ti-Ni internal nexus works. How does an ISTP's Ni make connections? It would appear to be even more random than that of primary Ni users? Ni is slow, so for ISTPs, it should be even slower?

[poki]

Maybe you're seeing the framework building and categorizing of the Si? Si asks for information to fill in certain pieces, which is fetched by Ne and tested (giving the appearance of back&forth).

In your example snippets, I can only differentiate based on Ne vs. Se; I can't really "see" the Si or Ni. What parts of the snippets come across as especially Si or Ni? Can you actually understand the Ni of other ISTPs?

I understand how the Ni-Ti nexus works for an INFJ (which I see as being an extremely useful configuration), but I don't quite understand how a Ti-Ni internal nexus works. How does an ISTP's Ni make connections? It would appear to be even more random than that of primary Ni users? Ni is slow, so for ISTPs, it should be even slower?

I dont see Ni as slow, because its a perception. Ne/Se can not be slow, it is just there, unless were drunk, then our perception of everything slows down. Out internal perception is not slow either, it is our internal perception of the world. It is our Ti that slows things down. Ni-Ti doesnt spend as much time in Ti so when it has to use Ni it appears slow because they have to go back to Ti. When INTP/ISTP need to figure something out they spend alot of time thinking. When trying to view things from the outside there is a disconnect between apparent thought and actual thought. The best way to figure out what Ti is is to look at the similarities between ISTP and INTP, but there is such a misconception that Ne is thought that ISTPs mistype themselves. When we try to figure things out we internally see how we relate to others, when we look from the outside which is Se we easily see the difference. When reading and thinking we arent going to our external percieving function so we can relate(Ni) to things and relate that we are "thinkers and ask questions alot" to INTP. Intuition is when you understand the situation so well you know whats gonna happen next. If you dont spend enough time in Ti you dont build enough Si and the picture is kinda fuzzy, you have to go back to Ti to try and clear it up using memory of Ne. When you spend enough time in Ti the picture is crystal clear whats gonna happen. Everything we do is based on what we believe internally so our actions represent whats internal not external. It is Si and Ni that make us who we are.

[poki]

When I try to distinguish between Ti/Ni or Ti/Si I go back to what is perception. If my meaning of Si and Ni does not match with what perception is than it cant be right. Ne/Se have to have some relation to Ni/Si since they are perception both perception functions. This is one of the ways I try to validate my thinking. I ask myself does this sound like a perception.

Look at INTP descriptions of functions they describe the behaviour not the function. internally they have a vision of what the function does, not a definition of the actual function. When the vision is fuzzy they tend to have alot of overlap with what each function does, you cant distinguish where one ends and the other begins. Staying around INTPs doesnt help because you dont have the Ne needed to better define the lump into individual visions of each function. This is what I believe the top down aproach is. Ne(relate) lumps things together and Ti has to try to figure out the differences and better the vision.

Se brings in the differences and Ti has to lump it together to create our internal perception. This is the bottom up approach.

[narsasistickx]

A lot of times he will argue with me when I am factually right. I mean I have gone back after the argument many times, found said fact on the internet and emailed it to him. Like for instance, that you can get a tan or a sunburn on a cloudy day. He said you can't when I knew for sure that you can (to me this seems like something that is obvious to everyone but whatever).
It's not a fact or not fact thing, this is about the dynamic of our relationship. He has some sort of subconscious beef with how I am that makes him feel inclined to argue with me, or at least that is what I think. So I want to know what aspect of my personality it is that makes an ISTP feel inclined to argue with everything I say.
I could give other examples of what the arguments have been about. It's alway stupid, petty shit. Like if leaving my ipod in the glovebox in my car in the summer time will drain the battery. DUH. YES. Doesn't everyone know this to be fact? Apparently not, since he killed my ipod and now won't take responsibility for it.


I can see why he would argue over something obvious or when your clearly right.

Its that weird sense that tells them to act up on people. Just to rev things up and see your reaction. Just to push your buttons for fun. I know I do it sometimes and others who appear to be istp get a kick out of stirring things up.

Does he act as if "he knew all along"?

But I would see it as more of a "taking interest in the person" because he wants to know how you perceive things. Or maybe he just likes to piss people off who knows? maybe you should just ask out of curiosity...ask him why he does that. (remember to be delicate with the question)

[slacker]

I guess perception functions can be viewed as passive functions, and judging functions as active functions.

ISTPs: compare (Ti) external static/solidity (Se) to establish internal dynamic/change (Ni)
INTPs: compare (Ti) external dynamic/change (Ne) to establish internal static/solidity (Si)

If above, then:
Ni = established construct of internal dynamics, or causality/predictivity
Si = established construct of internal statics, or models (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=21771)

also,
Se = discrete math
Ne = calculus

I guess the ISTP takes tons of frames/snapshots (Se), feeds the answer to a method akin to logic programming, and gets an internal reanimation of events (Ni), producing an Eureka answer that is certain. While an ISTP's intuition results in 'intuitive certainty', an INTP's intuition results in 'optimized best-guess'.

A problem with the ISTP approach is that the intuitive certainty is only valid under extremely strict conditions. Combined with the amount of data that Se requires, it's tough to generalize the approach, as ISTPs have to solve the problem over and over again for each new problem? How do ISTPs develop an approach for generalizing, without having to collect tons of data over and over again for new questions? By sticking to an area of specialization? Is it due to Ni refinement over time? Or does Se just store an insane amount of data? If that's the case, perhaps memory capacity is an important decider of ISTP intelligence, even more than in other types?

[poki]

I guess perception functions can be viewed as passive functions, and judging functions as active functions.

ISTPs: compare (Ti) external static/solidity (Se) to establish internal dynamic/change (Ni)
INTPs: compare (Ti) external dynamic/change (Ne) to establish internal static/solidity (Si)

If above, then:
Ni = established construct of internal dynamics, or causality/predictivity
Si = established construct of internal statics, or models (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=21771)

also,
Se = discrete math
Ne = calculus

I guess the ISTP takes tons of frames/snapshots (Se), feeds the answer to a method akin to logic programming, and gets an internal reanimation of events (Ni), producing an Eureka answer that is certain. While an ISTP's intuition results in 'intuitive certainty', an INTP's intuition results in 'optimized best-guess'.

A problem with the ISTP approach is that the intuitive certainty is only valid under extremely strict conditions. Combined with the amount of data that Se requires, it's tough to generalize the approach, as ISTPs have to solve the problem over and over again for each new problem? How do ISTPs develop an approach for generalizing, without having to collect tons of data over and over again for new questions? By sticking to an area of specialization? Is it due to Ni refinement over time? Or does Se just store an insane amount of data? If that's the case, perhaps memory capacity is an important decider of ISTP intelligence, even more than in other types?

Because Ni is internal theory. We recreate the theory in our head. We only have one theory that fits everything. The part where Se comes in is distinguishing whats different between our theory and what we see. We then modify our internal theory to fit. We have to understand why. When we percieve we notice the difference between what we percieve and what we think it should be. You would be suprised at how much actually carries over from scenario to scenario. I have become really proficient with google to find the little details needed, but my internal theory combined with Se leads me to either the answer or where to look for an answer. My eureka moment is when I figure out one piece of information that allows me to map all these other theories together. Think of a several formulas that all use the same constant and one day you stumble upon that constant and somehow everything just fits in place. Thats what happens in my head.