Sensory vs Intuitive approach towards making music

[deus ex machina]

Can someone clarify for me what the general differences would be between these two approachs towards practice, creativity, improvisation, etc?

[headfonez]

intuitive music makers are called musicians
Sensor music makers are called song producers

[Shimpei]

I think Sensors are generally not as good in creating music as Intuitives. Sensors can be very good at interpreting music though. Sensors don't have so rich imagination and creativity as Intuitives do. Intuitives are more susceptible to subtle things.
I like Headfonez' approach. Very insightful IMO.

[mad99001]

When you humm a song in your head, do you have the sensation that the back of your tounge or something in the back of your throat is moving? I get that sensation when I talk to myself, consciously recall a song, or try to consciously compose. However, every once in a while when my mind goes blank before I fall asleep I hear music that is original and quite creative and I don't have that sensation on my tounge/throat. It's like there's musical talent in my head that oozes out once every three months, but something that I cannot tap into.

Too bad I forever lost any serious interest in music in the 4th grade b/c of a demented teacher.

[Faust06]

do you have the sensation that the back of your tounge or something in the back of your throat is moving?

:thelook:

[CreativeChaos]

Sensors are the musical technicians. They excel at technique. At actually playing the instrument and DOing the practice. They LOVE practice, simply for the doing of it.

Intuitives tend to hate practicing, because they can already imagine how the song should be, and thus lose interest.

So intuitives create music, sensors DO music.

[last_caress]

By the book vs. by ear.

[distraction tactics]

Which N's in this thread actually make music?

[last_caress]

Which N's in this thread actually make music?

:rocker:

[distraction tactics]

(Haha, partly my point is as scarasticly stated, but only a bit.

A person doesn't even need to pick up an instrument to have a correct view on the OP.)

[Shimpei]

Sensors are the musical technicians. They excel at technique. At actually playing the instrument and DOing the practice. They LOVE practice, simply for the doing of it.

Intuitives tend to hate practicing, because they can already imagine how the song should be, and thus lose interest.

So intuitives create music, sensors DO music.

I disagree. I always hated practising piano. Always. And I hated especially the technical drills. BTW: I was considered very talented in interpreting works.

[deus ex machina]

Which N's in this thread actually make music?

I do. I go to school for music, and might transfer into the composition program. I sing, play guitar, piano, djembe, and pretty much anything else I can get my hands on. I spend approximately 6-12 hours a day practicing (ear training, sight singing, singing, guitar technique, piano technique (czerny, hanon etc), theory, etc) and I mostly write acoustic/vocal material, guitar/piano etudes, and I have one symphony I have been working on and several piano sonatas.

I stated this question, originally, to get some ideas on different approaches to practice. I had guitar lessons for a couple months, years ago, and my teacher was a young dude. Something I noticed about him, and pretty much every other teacher I have encountered was that (this guy especially) they tended to excell at technique and learning material note-for-note, however, I have never been with a teacher who really had improvisition skills. Even though I was less experianced than him, I could get more out of a pentatonic scale than he could with everything he had (when it came to strick improv), but ask him to whip out the most technical peice he had and he could nail a paganini caprice flawlessly.

This was the point I started taking music more seriously and began forcing myself to practice long, hard, and structured with daily goals. I have been keeping a journal, and I spend a considerable amount of time on technique and actually pushing myself to complete compositions. This also got me into composing, since you really have to work hard and spend several to several hundred hours to complete a beautiful sonata, and so forth. This, more sensory based approach, has really helped me to bring my technical ability up to par with my creative ability. In fact, at this point I can write anything I can hear in my mind. Although my technical skills are definetely on point, I do tend to writie piano works I can't even play, but it's all good. More to learn. :)

In fact, I out of all the people I have played with in my life time, I rarely come across other people who were good improvisers, and I started to notice that the people who were good improvisors tended to be more intuitive, creative, and willing to bend other people's songs to a more intepretive, rather than objective performance.

Basically, I am trying to categorize the different types of musicians I have encountered (even though I believe categorization is generally wrong, I think it will be a helpful tool in this case for clarity), and it seems that one could break these approaches down into an extreme sensory based approach, extreme intuitive based approach, and all the shades of gray on the base level, and then break it down into specific kinds of approaches to learning music (recognizing the shades of gray and individual differences, of course).

[Pooja]

My "Sensory" score on the MBTI test was the only one that was absurdly low. (I'm over 98% N)...
And the things I naturally stink at, are : navigation/directions, being "high-maintenence", team sports, turning "my brain off" and simply "doing" versus analyzing, and music.
Thus, I think that it's safe to assume that those are typical "S" characteristics.

[eyebyte_atWork]

SP's tend to be the best at music. Performance and composition.

Why? Because they live for the play and as such have a better feel for it.

Mozart was an SP - and so was Beethoven.

Examine the lives of the best composers in history and you will see they have more in common with Artisans than with any other type.

NT's and NF's appreciate music - to a high degree - but we cannot fulfill our ambitions as well as artisans.

[Burble]

I make improve music on guitar & vocal harmonies. I never sought out traditional training because it is so boring. I must let my natural curiousity lead me, even if it's slower than a structured means.

[screamingflies]

I make improve music on guitar & vocal harmonies. I never sought out traditional training because it is so boring. I must let my natural curiousity lead me, even if it's slower than a structured means.

Same for me!

[Nemesis]

Which N's in this thread actually make music?
I do.

[azurwarrior]

How about the tendancy of people wanting ONLY to Sing and Dance "Gimmee the MIKE" karoake, pop/dance, lite drivel, etc.
No one seems to even want to play an instrument now. They don't have to. If it wasn't for accomplished instrumentalists that must be hired for the synth/comp ORIGINAL programming and some studio jobs instrumentalists seem to becoming rare and obsolete.
I'm sorry. I'm over 40 and wasn't raised with computers, so please forgive my ignorance...
Back in the day, I played for a lot of so-called project bands where an arranger or composer brought their work to us. It was then recorded in one take only.
As the drummer I was expected to sight read the score along with the rest of the band and play it nearly perfect. Because if we screwed it up, the composer/arranger was SOL. There were time constraints.
Sometimes inexperienced arrangers would hand me a part that was physically impossible for me to perform. And I was off the hook. I'd just explain (as in "Looky! 5 lines"!)to them that drummers have 4 limbs and anything more just wasn't possible.
Or for that matter, they'd bring in scores that were out of range for a particular instrument. And, that instrumentalist was not expected to play those notes. Common sense.
But now..........Geeez! They ARE expected to play that stuff.
With a little help from their engineering degrees (oops. I mean musical training).
Berklee College of Music now REQUIRES that EVERY student MUST buy a $3,800.00 Apple computer. (Yeah. The incredible musicians they scouted from the outbacks, poorest and most primative regions on the planet must come up with the $.
First hurdle. And compete with kids who have never known life without the internet.
That's huge.
Anyway. Where does that leave me?
How does Type "mesh" with these circumstances, in general?
Without a doubt, If I'd have encountered these electronics, etc.
THEN, I'd have been in heaven. Young and willing to do whatever it took. Nothing else mattered. And, Not having to find a band to jam with because their axes would be already be "there."
And some. Under my bidding. And I'd be blissfully ALONE with my "dream band" creating rhythms never before possible.
I always hated the people/music business game then.
But would this have materialized into "really making it?"
Would I produce more now or would I just DREAM of it all perfect and known only to myself...
I can't imagine going to an audition now and have to play EVERYTHING EXACTLY as it was recorded on a hip hop cd, for instance. That's what Berklee musicians DO aim for now.
Another thing that frustrates and pisses me off.... All those vocalists with their big mouths make me sick. They're All talented. They're All rising stars. And they All sound the SAME.
Aaaaargh!
Is it better or worse now for an INTP musician?

az

[Zero Angel]

Which N's in this thread actually make music?
I do. I've been learning the guitar for a little over a year so far, but actually have only little technical ability. My creativity only goes as far as taking an existing non-guitar melody (like Zelda themes) and figuring out how to play it, or banging about here and there on combinations of chords and (and recently learned good combos for bassy transitional riffs). But I am by no means an excellent guitar player.

And I will have to disagree with the best music makers being N types, but only because most of the great guitarists I know are SFP types (and one ISFP is particularly gifted), and at least one ENFP (bass player and drummer).

[Pierce]

My ex was an ISFP and gifted in music. She was great at improv and composition as well as performing. I was much better at music appreciation and wound up building her a recording studio... it was kinda fun figuring out the audio engineering end of things and I enjoyed the creativity of enhancing her stuff. In the end, she ran off with an Italian jazz singer -- I guess they've recorded some hit songs in europe. Anyway, while I seem to excel in visual arts and writing, she had the music thing hands down.

[Melody]

i think book vs ear is a j vs p thing


isfp gots 'composer' for a reason. because music is very sensorial, and ip = hovercraft creativity, im guessing they the best

[edit]i think neither s or n is gooder, just attuned to different aspects

but i think the sensorial aspect is the most important

so i guess that means i think s is gooder

[earwax]

Which N's in this thread actually make music?
I do.

I tend to find two types of musicians. Those who are good at reproducing a piece of music, technically proficient but no real imagination. And those that couldn't reproduce something note for note if their life depended on it, but are more adept at interpreting, adapting and/or improvising.

Of course there are all flavors in between, but those seem to be the basic endpoints.

[kendoiwan]

The difference between me and my SP partner? The way it works is he gives me an endless supply of raw material to arrange and structure. He will mumble something or freestyle something and I will go, "that's it, write it down!" Or I'll come up with a concept and a framework (verse, hook, bridge, format) and he'll give it a flavor. And when we write songs I'm more likely to try to fit something I've already written into the framework while he'll always opt to start from scratch.
He's the composer and I'm the architect.

[Park]

He's the composer and I'm the architect.

I used to have a similar type of co-work with an ESFP just on a different media (fashion design). I can honestly say that I've never feel so *complete* in my creative work. Every collection would start with a brainstorm after discussion forth and back I would eventually start to tune into the base of a concept which we would build upon. I loved her creative and messy way of thinking. I'm very good at creating clear sharp concepts but I don't have a natural good sence of the little details which can take a concept to the next level.

[Faust06]

As an INTP I tend to analyse songs in depth and apply whatever I like best about what I derived to my music.

There's a quote from Jordan Rudess that comes to mind: "It is the work of the musician to break down the walls of ego and overcome physical limitation in order to capture that living music and translate it into a beautiful sound on his instrument.".

It's ridiculous to think that technically proficient musicians aren't as creative or imaginative. Every musician I've ever talked to doesn't care much for practice at all. Most of them just do what's necessary to achieve some prowess on the instrument.

[Stoic]

When you humm a song in your head, do you have the sensation that the back of your tounge or something in the back of your throat is moving? I get that sensation when I talk to myself, consciously recall a song, or try to consciously compose. However, every once in a while when my mind goes blank before I fall asleep I hear music that is original and quite creative and I don't have that sensation on my tounge/throat. It's like there's musical talent in my head that oozes out once every three months, but something that I cannot tap into.

Too bad I forever lost any serious interest in music in the 4th grade b/c of a demented teacher.

I've gotton that before too. Right when I'm about to sleep I'll hear 1 or 2 seconds of perfect melody. I never happens on purpose and you can't control it, it sounds like mini speaker in your head.

Does that sound like what you get?

[Stoic]

Which N's in this thread actually make music?

I do. (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=534145)

[Nemesis]

Sensors are the musical technicians. They excel at technique. At actually playing the instrument and DOing the practice. They LOVE practice, simply for the doing of it.

Intuitives tend to hate practicing, because they can already imagine how the song should be, and thus lose interest.

So intuitives create music, sensors DO music.
That's not true. The best musician I know is an INTJ, best cellist in our school, member of the Temple University Youth Orchestra (She's 17) and been accepted to both Curtis and Juliard.

[lexiphanic]

I've gotton that before too. Right when I'm about to sleep I'll hear 1 or 2 seconds of perfect melody. I never happens on purpose and you can't control it, it sounds like mini speaker in your head.

Does that sound like what you get?

I've had whole symphonic pieces playing in my head to just 'out there' dance music. I have the capability to surpass it, but I have to know enough so that my I can let my intuition run free. With the work I am doing right now, I am bound by a lack of knowledge and am stuck in a very s-ish rut.

I like to think I make music.

[Elizabeth B]

I play piano and trumpet. My piano teachers must have been SJ, I think I would have learned more from an N. I played all these scales and chords without understanding why. I recently bought a book called "How to Play the Piano despite years of lessons" that looks at things from an N perspective, I'm looking forward to using it. I've been waiting for the price of digital piano keyboards to drop some more, but they seem to have leveled out in the last few years.

The trumpet, you have to play a little almost every day to be able to hit the high notes. I get bored playing the same pieces, so I'll practice different stuff than I'll be playing for the most part. I'll also sometimes just buzz on my mouthpiece while doing some other routine task to keep the lip muscles in shape.

[aklight]

I'm a musician. Most of the music I play is improv though unless it's something that I've already written. I don't really know how to play any cover songs and I don't know how to read music. I don't know jack about playing music. I just do it. I can make a hit song every time I pick up the guitar, but then I'll probably never play that song again.

Say that there's a crowd of people, one guitar, and a few guitarists. I always see people playing rather complicated songs, but they look at the fretboard the whole time, they don't get it into the song very much, and it's boring to watch and listen to. They are actually way better at playing guitar than I am. I'm not that good. I don't know anything and I can't do any fancy tricks. But I can pick up the guitar and start singing and get everybody's attention because of the way I FEEL the music, then the crowd feels the music, and I end up being the one that gets the applause.

So being an N, I guess I pay attention to the feeling, the excitement, the crowd, and the song instead of what I'm actually doing with my fingers, what notes I'm singing, or what I'm going to do next. Who knows.

An S would be a good lead guitarist IMO.

[Toonia]

Creative expression is complex and involves multiple levels of thinking to achieve. It tends to synthesize both sensing and intuition. Each musician has certain intellectual and physical strengths that come together uniquely to result in their musical ability. I do not think it is possible to say that S or N produce the better musician. Music is an expression of our internal world of feelings and imagination, but it occurs in the external world. If either end of the equation is poorly rendered, then the artistic expression with suffer. To venture a few generalizations, the sensor may focus more on the production of sound, tone color, sublime technique, savoring the delivery of the expression in the external world. The iNtuitive may be more focused on the internal emotional meaning in the piece, or the underlying abstract structure, and how to project this into the external world. To be an excellent musician you really have to have an awareness of both.

Beethoven serves as an interesting study to this discussion, since he was cut off from his sense of hearing, he had to think abstractly about his creations. However, I am convinced that he maintained an awareness of feeling the resonance of the harmonies. His last piano sonata use harmonies that are voiced so richly and with such resonance that I can feel them when I play. I really believe he could as well. When he composed, his primary concern was not the ease or functionality of playing a passage, but the structure, logic, and expression behind the pattern. If I had to venture a guess, I would say Beethoven was most likely an INTJ (maybe P?). (This opens opens another interesting discussion about tendencies for T's and F's in musical communication) He considered becoming a philosopher when his hearing deteriorated. His expression of emotion was never sentimental, but profound, speaking to humanity with great meaning. It was philosophy spoken in a musical language.

To balance this, I would also venture to suppose that Chopin and Liszt were likely Sensors. Their music is especially idiomatically written. It fits the hands like a glove suggesting they composed primarily at their instruments responding to the sound more directly than Beethoven. Liszt was also extremely successful negotiating his way in the external world, creating great thrill and sensation as a performer. (Perhaps Chopin was an ISF and Lizst an ESF)

In short, both Sensing and iNtuition are necessary to create music. The Sensing musician will tend to respond to the sounds created in the external world, while the iNtuitive will project their inner world onto the expression in sound. I simply would not call one approach preferrable as both are needed to the complex process of musical expression.

[timathonia]

Just finished (I hope, finally) a home recorded album of original compositions. I am a guitar player and I learned some bass to go along with the other parts.
I think I'm an okay guitarist as far as technique goes but not near the caliber of the real 'guitar gods'. Yet I do love to explore and exercise (though not necessarily practice).
One of the hardest things to do with this album was to decide when it was really finished, because I was - still am - able to see so many other possibilities for each piece of music. "hmm, that's sort of a sour note there... but maybe it sort of works within the whole..."
I rerecorded all parts of all the tracks many times, until I got to the point that I feared killing them all.
I think I'm an okay composer but I wish I was better with some of the intricacies and the speed, but I keep trying and I hope to improve.
A neighbor who has about 20 years (or is it 30?) in music - higher learning level/theory, etc... is now listening to the sample CD, supposedly picking it apart - I was just curious as to what she would say, maybe she could detect places that may benefit from one more exertion.
Sorry if this makes little sense, just had a few beers, it's a late summer night...

[rawr]

I play music. I always make shit up on the fly. Everyone in my band gets kinda pissed at me because i never actualy take the time to write something solid.

http://myspace.com/roctopus is the band. i play leadish guitar. The recordings are iffy and myspace is down right now. Guitar has gotten to the point where its boring because there's nothing i can't really do or play on it. I want to pick up piano or viola. Probably both, as i can sit and play a baby grand at school and buy a viola for at home. I never had any formal training because i like to learn things on my own rather than go through some structured program. I've played guitar for 12 years, or since i was 8.

[deus ex machina]

I'm a musician. Most of the music I play is improv though unless it's something that I've already written. I don't really know how to play any cover songs and I don't know how to read music. I don't know jack about playing music. I just do it. I can make a hit song every time I pick up the guitar, but then I'll probably never play that song again.

Say that there's a crowd of people, one guitar, and a few guitarists. I always see people playing rather complicated songs, but they look at the fretboard the whole time, they don't get it into the song very much, and it's boring to watch and listen to. They are actually way better at playing guitar than I am. I'm not that good. I don't know anything and I can't do any fancy tricks. But I can pick up the guitar and start singing and get everybody's attention because of the way I FEEL the music, then the crowd feels the music, and I end up being the one that gets the applause.

So being an N, I guess I pay attention to the feeling, the excitement, the crowd, and the song instead of what I'm actually doing with my fingers, what notes I'm singing, or what I'm going to do next. Who knows.

An S would be a good lead guitarist IMO.


I'm a damn good lead guitarist - but I only remember phrasings from their melodic structure, rather than note for note (if that makes sense) so every time I play solos they are based on similiar structures, but never the same note for note - that would bore me to death. I do, however, know about 100+ songs half assed acoustic/vocally I've picked up over the past year or two.

I can pick up the guitar and write a song on the spot very easily and very well, but I'll probably never remember it (I have like 3 notebooks of half started songs). Recently I've been trying to create and actually master original material note for note.... I'll let ya'll know how that works if I don't forget it.

[Jennywocky]

I always see people playing rather complicated songs, but they look at the fretboard the whole time, they don't get it into the song very much, and it's boring to watch and listen to. They are actually way better at playing guitar than I am. I'm not that good. I don't know anything and I can't do any fancy tricks. But I can pick up the guitar and start singing and get everybody's attention because of the way I FEEL the music, then the crowd feels the music, and I end up being the one that gets the applause.

Music is communication -- you're trying to convey feelings, ambiance, perhaps ideas and persuading someone else to see and experience the world as you are.

The people you describe are like people who know sentence structure but don't know how to write in a way that is convincing. Their prose always feels dead.

I can tell when I listen to people (singing, instrument, etc.) which ones "have the spark" and which ones are just creating empty structure. I think the spark is more important than the structure, although the structure supports the spark.

In my family, I'm an INTP with the 'spark' -- and the only other one who seems to have acquired it out of my kids is the ESFP. Funny, huh? Totally different from me, but he's "got it."

BTW, I agree that a sensor can be an excellent lead guitarist. ISTP and ISFP, I think, would be my bets of the "best ones." ESFP seems typically to gravitate to drumming or singing, if they have a choice... the more kinetic their expression of music, the better.

[stopharian]

I do.

Im a fairly good whistler although sometimes I have to change techniques to hit the high notes.