The other half.

[Sight-Ascended]

I just noticed something, kinda sad that i only just noticed actually, but when i look at type orders for a type it gives 4 of the traits in primary, secondary, aux, and inferior. but we all have 8 traits, not 4, what happened to the other half? where does it hit in to the type?
example:
INTP
Ti
Ne
Si
Fe

wth... where is Te, Ni, Se, and Fi???

[abathur]

That's the question, isn't it?

I don't think MBTI itself (nor the original Jung stuff) deals with it much or at all. A few of the people who've done work afterwards have all of the functions named out with stuff like "trickster" and "demonic" for the shadow processes, purporting to explain what roles they play. I'm not sure I buy it, if only because of the differences in function "development" under the cognitive process instrument.

Here's an article I found on the topic: http://typetimes.org/Web_Archives/010_Winter_2002-3/010d%20Shadows.htm

It seems like the shadow processes are attributed to these subconscious and often negative reactions, which is where I have a problem with it. My Fi is rather developed, tests as so and I'd say I'd say it is something in my conscious use. I'm still rather INTPish--enough so that you might say it's even more conscious--that I have to go a little against the grain of what I am by nature to do this.

[AllThingsConsidered]

Well if you wish to consider shadow functions then 1-4 would be conscious strongest to weakest and 5-8 unconscious strongest to weakest. MBTI (http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/16types.html) Socionics (http://socion.info/cgi-bin/index.cgi?loc=desc&model=1)

It is all up for debate on which theory, the right ordering on it and I know I made a post about it in general psychology forum.

[Edmond Zedo]

Well if you wish to consider shadow functions then 1-4 would be conscious strongest to weakest and 5-8 unconscious strongest to weakest. MBTI (http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/16types.html) Socionics (http://socion.info/cgi-bin/index.cgi?loc=desc&model=1)

It is all up for debate on which theory, the right ordering on it and I know I made a post about it in general psychology forum.
I think the Thompsonesque 8-function system is HOKUM, since I consider each function to be oriented toward E or I.

[Edmond Zedo]

what happened to the other half? where does it hit in to the type?
example:
INTP
Ti
Ne
Si
Fe

wth... where is Te, Ni, Se, and Fi???
Well, allow me to clarify. Not everybody sees it this way, but...your Thinking function is more I than E, your iNtuition is more E than I, and so on. If you follow that shaky system to begin with.

[AllThingsConsidered]

I think the Thompsonesque 8-function system is HOKUM, since I consider each function to be oriented toward E or I.

Well none of it is fact, perhaps its all Hooey. The strongest points are the two main functions that seem to give away type.
I do understand why the 8 functions.
You can't experience say Introverted Thinking and Extraverted Thinking as a person?
Sure one rules the other but don't you do both and thusly shouldn't all 8 functions be accounted for?

That blasted order of 5-8 is always so questionable.

[Edmond Zedo]

You can't experience say Introverted Thinking and Extraverted Thinking as a person?
Sure one rules the other but don't you do both and thusly shouldn't all 8 functions be accounted for?
Sure you experience both, but what I question is the value of separating E and I. I think it's more appropriate to determine the focus as being E or I. Like a dial: "Well, my Thinking is primarily introverted, so I'll call it Ti." The Te is extraneous.

[abathur]

What about people who test really high Ti and Te, or Ne and Ni?

[AllThingsConsidered]

Sure you experience both, but what I question is the value of separating E and I. I think it's more appropriate to determine the focus as being E or I. Like a dial: "Well, my Thinking is primarily introverted, so I'll call it Ti." The Te is extraneous.

And isn't that the purpose of shadow functions? Still present, yet in an unconscious sense to fill in gaps for human need. Say waiting in the sidelines but still inclusive and at one time or another used by all people.
From others tests seen, the results of the last 5-8 functions seem very iffy. They are present but
very debatable order, indeed.

EDIT: In fact the results of people after the 1-2 functions seems to vary in same types. Thats why I made that other post.

[Edmond Zedo]

And isn't that the purpose of shadow functions? Still present, yet in an unconscious sense to fill in gaps for human need. Say waiting in the sidelines but still inclusive and at one time or another used by all people.
From others tests seen, the results of the last 5-8 functions seem very iffy. They are present but
very debatable order, indeed.

EDIT: In fact the results of people after the 1-2 functions seems to vary in same types. Thats why i made that other post.
Once again (not really from this thread), how important are they if they're impossible to decipher and ambiguous?

[KuJo]

maybe if you wanted to improve your poorest function. then you would need to know which is the poorest. just a thought.

[Sight-Ascended]

well i ask because having taken a trait strength test, iv found my Ne and Ni are equal and my Ti and Fi are both high and Te and Fe are both really low, so im trying to understand the full inter-relationship of the 8 functions. and yes zedo, they system is shaky at best, but thats because its a clasification of behaviors with suposition as the basis of understanding the driving forces that cause them and so in thruth, Ti and Te are as different from each other as Fe and Te. really the organization of the letters in the system is a rough framework at best, but seeing that it doesn teven take into account but half of your traits as your personality type made this all the more clear, so im trying to figure out if there is any systems of though on how ALL the traits interact, not just half of them.

[AllThingsConsidered]

well i ask because having taken a trait strength test, iv found my Ne and Ni are equal and my Ti and Fi are both high and Te and Fe are both really low, so im trying to understand the full inter-relationship of the 8 functions. and yes zedo, they system is shaky at best, but thats because its a clasification of behaviors with suposition as the basis of understanding the driving forces that cause them and so in thruth, Ti and Te are as different from each other as Fe and Te. really the organization of the letters in the system is a rough framework at best, but seeing that it doesn teven take into account but half of your traits as your personality type made this all the more clear, so im trying to figure out if there is any systems of though on how ALL the traits interact, not just half of them.

Well socionics model shows how functions work together to form blocks. The links I posted will show you a possible way each function is considered 1-8 for types and when they might develop in someone and what purpose they serve.

[ptGatsby]

Just re-iterate what I have said before;

I *believe*, from what I have read from Jung and Briggs, that there was no statistical correlation to the shadow functions and type. In other words, outside of type-correlations (ie: selective growth of shadow functions), shadow functions are randomly distributed between the Dominant and Inferior functions.

Having said that, its important to note that all of the functions tend to work in pairs, such at Ti-Ne, Ti-Si, Ne-Fe, Si-Fe... as such, the shadow function scores (cognitive functions) is more about your level of skill - not the dominance in your heirarchy.

[Shimpei]

I've been thinking about how one can develop his/her inferior functions the best. I think you learn the most - thus are able to develop/improve yourself - when there's something that makes you get out of your comfort zone. When you're at a point where you have to realize you cannot behave as an INTP (or anything you are naturally) because it would be useless, pointless, harmful, or the like and maybe would be against your own (or other's) interests (if you are not too selfish). To sum it up: when your interests are in a conflict situation with your own nature.

[Sight-Ascended]

Well socionics model shows how functions work together to form blocks. The links I posted will show you a possible way each function is considered 1-8 for types and when they might develop in someone and what purpose they serve.

i dont fit nicely into thier blocks either. i dont really fit any of them to my knowledge