Five with Four Wing: The Iconoclasts

[CreativeChaos]

A number of INTPs are 5w4 wings. It appears that a number of INFPs are 4w5 wings. See if this rings a bell.



Quote:

The traits of the Five and those of the Four reinforce each other in many ways. Both Five and Four are withdrawn types: they turn to the inner world of their imagination to defend their egos and to reinforce their sense of self. They both feel that something essential in themselves must be found before they can live thier lives completelhy. Fives lack the confidence to act, and Fours lack a strong, stable sense of identity. Thus, Fives with Four wing have difficulty connecting with others and staying founded. People Of this subtyype are more emotioonal and introverted than Fives with a Six-wing, although paradoxically, they tend to be more sociable than the other subtype. As a result of their Four component, they are also more intereseted in the personal and intrapsychic. THe two types also have some significant differences in their approach. Fives are cerebral, holding experience at arms length, while Fours internalize everything to intensify thier fellings. Despite these differences - or because of them - these two personality types make one of the richest subtypes, combining possibilities for outstanding artistic as well as intellectual achievement.

In healthy people of this subtype, we find the union of intuition and knowledge, sensitivity and insight, aesthetic appreciation and intellectual endowments. Fives with a Four-wing are likely to be involved in the arts as writers, directors, designers, musicians, composers, choreographers, and so forth. This subtype has been somewhat overlooked in many descriptions of Fives becasue they do not fit the stereotype of the academic/scientific Five (the Five with a Six-wing). This subtype is more synthetic in its thinking pulling things together and seeking out new ways of looking at things. Also, Fives with a Four wing are drawn to those areas in which there is less emphasis on experimentation and data collection than on intuition and comprehensive vision. This subtype is paritcularly aware of - and on the lookout for the - beauty in a mathematical formula for example. For this subtpe beauty is one of the indications fo truth, because the order which beauty reprresents is a comfirmation of the objective rightness of an idea.



This makes me think that INTPs who are 5w4 are more likely to be confused over their INTP. Same thing with INFPs who are 4w5. They are both likely INXPs or have not really found their true place.

[Marston]

I'm 5w4, and not particularly confused myself. I think that profile overemphasizes the 4 side of 5w4s. This culture likes to view art and science as competitors, and I think that's the thinking behind their comparison of 4 versus 6 wings. I'm a Biology student, and I enjoy drawing animals and human musculature. Science and art, hand in hand. I would suspect that other 5w4s also lean more toward the technical side in their artistic interests.

[Biff_Loman]

I'm not so much sure that the line is drawn between science and art but between empiricism and mysticism. Art seems so focussed on exploring. . . something. Something that doesn't relate directly to manipulation of the physical world.

[Ka.avik]

I'm not so much sure that the line is drawn between science and art but between empiricism and mysticism. Art seems so focussed on exploring. . . something.

While I'm not entirely sure about your assessment of art always being about exploration, I think you're right, that the 5/4 split is between, as you say, empiricism & mysticism.

I already know I'm no artist. I took a few art classes in college, and while yes, I could learn to draw, I had no 'feel' for what the students felt art was about. I just wanted to depict something; shading and the like were for mood, not the thing I was trying to depict.

Eventually I gave up on art; I still look at it, though -- but only if it interests me, and that pretty much means furry art.
EDIT: I'm not sure if I'm 5w4 or at least 5-equal wings...but I think the latter, although that may be wrong...

[coffeezombie]

I have never been confused about being an INTP. The thinking is predominant in my mind and defines my feeling side.

[bergenski]

I think I confirmed my 5w4 status when in looking for an avatar I immediately look to artistic ones...I don't even consider any other ones...

[Serotonin]

I want to change my enneagram type now to something like 1w2..... since the supposed rareness of this type doesn't seem to be rare at all on this board. I need to preserve my uniqueness, and my pain and suffering needs to be more significant and distressing than yours is, you pack of artiste poseurs.
You're the bees knees, but so am I....

[coffeezombie]

I want to change my enneagram type now to something like 1w2..... since the supposed rareness of this type doesn't seem to be rare at all on this board. I need to preserve my uniqueness, and my pain and suffering needs to be more significant and distressing than yours is, you pack of artiste poseurs.
They are rarer than it might appear, Serotonin.

[CosmicDust]

I'm with CZ on this one...since the 5 and 4 descriptions fit the (introverted) NT and NF best respectively, most online people, who are introverted NTs or NFs, including myself as a newbie, will tend to identify with some kind of 5-4 combo. Granted, you will find an unusually high concentration of 5-4 combos online compared to elsewhere, but many INTPs turn out to be better described as 5w6s, 9w1s, or 6w5s, in roughly that order. (It seems that the NT 6w5s I run into online are more likely to be INTJ than INTP, and more non-5 INTPs online seem to be or identify as 9w1s than 6w5s. Not sure why.) Occasionally they can be 3s, too.

[Serotonin]

They are rarer than it might appear, Serotonin.

:shock:

Are you saying that....... there might be some people who are wrongly typing themselves, maybe because they idolise the spirit of the 5w4 and type themselves accordingly? Heresy!

In such revelatory spirit, I obviously cannot distance myself from the possibility that I am guilty of such behaviour, and my denial has pushed my doubt so far down into my psyche that I have grown to believe it isn't there.

Well, now is the time to bring it back up..... my attraction to the vaudevillian may mean I'm a seven, or my discomfort at the level of internecine venom on the board and tendency to mediate may scream nine, but....

Oh, god, no.....

my passive aggressiveness.......

my tendency to stick to particular viewpoints for the sake of groupthink....

my counterphobic tendency to stir the shit when I feel like it....

I've become the type that I hate the most..... the 6! :cry:

[coffeezombie]

Are you saying that....... there might be some people who are wrongly typing themselves, maybe because they idolise the spirit of the 5w4 and type themselves accordingly? Heresy!

In such revelatory spirit, I obviously cannot distance myself from the possibility that I am guilty of such behaviour, and my denial has pushed my doubt so far down into my psyche that I have grown to believe it isn't there.

The online tests are bad, and the description for Type Six in general is written poorly. Plus, I think Type Six people do not identify themselves as easily as Type Fives do just by the nature of who they are. But yeah, a lot of people who think they are Fives are probably just intelligent Sixes.

[Vagabond]

Serotonin: I think you are a One. Preferably a 1w7 (you have noticed that is the new way of smashing the enneagram into tiny little unrecognisable pieces, right?)

Oh, and I am joking... :p

[Serotonin]

Serotonin: I think you are a One. Preferably a 1w7 (you have noticed that is the new way of smashing the enneagram into tiny little unrecognisable pieces, right?)

........mmmmmm still might be an element of truth there. Having grown up in the same household as my strong One father, chip of the ol' block doncha know? Stepping outside myself, I'm possibly more indignant and conscience-ridden than other 5s.

[Vagabond]

........mmmmmm still might be an element of truth there. Having grown up in the same household as my strong One father, chip of the ol' block doncha know? Stepping outside myself, I'm possibly more indignant and conscience-ridden than other 5s.
Don't be ridiculous. You are not a One. ;P Or even close.

[CreativeChaos]

I want to change my enneagram type now to something like 1w2..... since the supposed rareness of this type doesn't seem to be rare at all on this board. I need to preserve my uniqueness, and my pain and suffering needs to be more significant and distressing than yours is, you pack of artiste poseurs.
You're the bees knees, but so am I....

Hey, I'm an INFP, 4x3, you can't get any more rarer than that.;P

Edit: Sorry, my four nature just couldn't help bragging. I also have AB- blood type. The rarest...and a log list of rarities. It's my bragging list. :smooch:

[Iblis]

So that's the reason why once in a while I test as INTJ? Ah, such revelation... Maybe that's why I canoot see the "beauty in a mathematical formula". Although I must confess I'm inclined towards the arts: Architecture student and writer wannabe (if only I had got patience to write... <_<).

[phenol]

I'm an INTP with a 4w5 enneagram. I think it's possible. I'm definately INTP based on behavior, but I'm also sensitive.

[mr. treat]

I'm an INTP with a 4w5 enneagram. I think it's possible. I'm definately INTP based on behavior, but I'm also sensitive.

i have nothing to contribute, but i felt the need to compliment your avatar. :rocker:

[C.J.Woolf]

...you pack of artiste poseurs.
:rofl: You needn't worry about me, at least. I'm a boring old 5w6; I'm so unhip I need a total hip replacement.

[Serotonin]

:rofl: You needn't worry about me, at least. I'm a boring old 5w6; I'm so unhip I need a total hip replacement.

Hipness transcends the enneagram. You're kewl in my book.

[ferunandesu]

I think that the entire enneagram is bullshit. I put 5w4, 4w5 in my signature because it seemed like the right thing to do. The truth is that I've always tested as a very strong 4 (and perhaps a 4w5). As for the MBTI, I first tested as an INFP, and starting testing as an INTP about a month or so later (right now i'm about 75% I, 80% N, 70% T, and 60% P).

Take a look at the directional theory of the enneagram if you want to see something that makes at least a little bit of sense.

This was quite a rambling post.

[last_caress]

The only part of the OP description that I don't feel describes me is the "less emphasis on experimentation".

I feel that should read "less emphasis on structured experimentation".

I usually come out somewhat close to the border with T/F.

My energy is directed more in the art/music direction, though I have always had a strong interest in science, just not in the detail work required to make it a profession.
.

[Jennywocky]

I'm not so much sure that the line is drawn between science and art but between empiricism and mysticism. Art seems so focussed on exploring. . . something. Something that doesn't relate directly to manipulation of the physical world.

The amount of Ne might also have something to do with it. I don't know if this is QUITE it, but INTPs who have strong Ti but undeveloped Ne and a developed Se probably lean 5w6, while INTPs with a strong Ne and less developed Se lean 5w4. Or maybe the Se factor has a lot to do with it.

Empiricism vs mysticism is not a bad way to say it. Empiricists look at the concrete outer world and accept the physical limitations as part of their assumptions -- then use the INTP thinking process to evaluate. The 5w4 apply the SAME thinking process to the world but see the rules of reality as more of unspecific intangible patterns than in specific tangibles.

The difference is in the basic assumption of what sort of 'data' is reliable or true.

[Oculus Sinister]

I originally posted this but I accidentally deleted it.

I believe I am 5x4 and also that I am a hybrid of INTP and INFJ. When I am conscious, I deal with the world type 5 INTP style. When I am unconcscious I deal w/ the inner world in a type 4, INFJ style. Or so I propose.

First of all, I am extremely sensitive to noises/sounds/color/light/rhythm(including a very synchronized perception of everything occurring while at the grocery store, gas station, etc.) Consciously I ignore everything which happens that would be deemed sensitive, though, when I introspect I cannot say the same for my unconscious. Other people, mostly women have told me I have a gift for putting people at ease and I think this is further evidence of the internal type 4 INFJ.

In addition to being aware of these internal feelings, when I draw and paint, at times I experience the sensation of feeling things so deeply they shoot through my body and my eyes will water while I express whatever it is that is inside. Once conscious again(after meditation/painting, etc) as an INTP type 5, I have to detach and analyze the bizarre emotional release that my proposed type 4/INfJ subconscious just released.

Also, I have had a very strong imagination since childhood. At a young age, I was haunted by a lot of dreams that someone my age(5-7) should not of experienced. One in which a demon with guills and the devil saying "you'll be mine" loud enough to sound like it was spoken through a foghorn inside of my head. Other perceptual distortions have always had a presence in my life. If I look upon these experiences as beneficial, I realize that since childhood my imagination or my N has been growing and recently I have begun to see beyond the physical constraints of reality. Ok, not that far yet, but everything I see and interact with has the possibility of being something else. One example, (though weak because of the difficult nature of explaing this phenomenon) is today when passing a construction site I saw a bulldozer and upon clooser examination I saw a part of the machine appear as duck beaks. Though, this is experienced by everyone, I mention it because the frequency of my projections has been inceasing. Another example then is when I have seen mailboxes as the side profiles of peoples faces, even some w/ a pipe in them(the mail flag).

Again, I will bring up something very occult I experienced though I will go ahead and say that it could of been my intuition and type 4 INFJ having some fun. A few days ago, I was staring at a mirror and the flesh of my body became wavy as it unfolded and my soul appeared. This is not the only time I have experienced something like this and if you read the post you will be aware I was on some pharmaceutical drugs. But anyway, in my life, reality exists only as an imaginary landscape which I project my imagination onto. Anything and everything has the potential to morph into a different form.

I believe that my INTP type 5 collects and absorbs everything from reality, including the emotion of others and other perceptual things and then my type 4/infj subconscious absorbs all of the deep emotions, and sensory experiences. Also, my type 5/Intp was not aware of this until this point of my writing this.

Recently, I read something about those who are left and right handed or slightly ambidextrous are more susceptible to schizoid/schizophrenic overtones and that they experience a wider variety of bilateral brain functioning. In other words, at times the wiring can be faulty and signals can be blocked and at other times the open lines work w/ rapid clarity. I happen to be dual-handed using different hands for certain functions and believe that this could also seek to prove that it is possible for me to be intp/type 5 external as well as infj/ type 4 internal. If we recognize that we have two brains operating within our brain connected by the corpus callosum, I only propose this as a possible explanation for experiencing such different personalties simultaneously. Bare with me because my handedness is a possible explanation, though it is only an idea and not scientifically validated.

As a 5x4 I experience things equally emotionally and logically. When I do not release my emotions inside manic episodes and deep depression are possible and have previously been experienced. Consciously as an INTP/type 5 I do show very little emotion but when absorbed in something like a movie or a picture of death, my INFJ type 4 is activated and absorbs what the INTP side attempts to repress.

Lately, I have been extremely aware of my perceptive awareness of aesthetics. To a certain degree, I feel like I am waking up and exploring the mystery of reality with a deeper clarity even though a dream world is revealing itself to me.

On a different note, Now, more then ever I am exploring myself artistically and finding that I have a very strong sensory ability with color, subtle nuances, symmetry, aesthetics, etc. Internally, I feel and experience these things(as I have claimed INFJ within). This is not unlike the INFJ to experience their environment in this way (sensing/perceiving) Yet, here I should note that my creative endeavors have only exploded into their current intensity recently(days ago) as for years I have been off and on destructive/viololent rage with a voice(perhaps INTP) that whispered (you are a worthless spine, you will never amount to shit, those lines are garbage, this is pointless, you should die, you should end it, you are nothing) These are really just annoying thoughts and never anything I would act on, nuisances that I have learned to silence. I am careful in my monitoring of these thoughts and treat them only as thoughts. Though, as a type 5/intp consciously I focus my intense desire for knowledge and truth into art books, design books, science books w/ cycles of nature, everything I see and experienced in the external world is brought home into my internal world of deeply felt ideas/sensations/and other things I don't know how to describe with words.

As a 5x4, I experience everything as a linked whole. Everything from license plate numbers I scan and see to the scratched off sticker on a sign that now resembles a lizard is absorbed and later analyzed/felt/ and explored. The music on the radio is linked to my life and lately I have been experiencing auditory projection. And it is more than that. An example being, I once went on my deck to smoke my last cigarette and I saw a face w/ a shut mouth in a tree. It appeared as I poetically said goodbye to the smoke and it appeared w/ my preperception of it. One more example: When I take a piss, sometimes the sound projects into my imagination w/ soothing/lyrical or poetic words that are from within. These are just a few of the perceptions I experience. All is linked and all is withi rhythmic dradles that cotinuously spins nature and life in cycles beyond fathom. I feel that I am perceptive of all the dradles as I swirl around the universe with them.

Also, as a 5x4 I use my type 5 constant desire for clarity to scrutinize every art/ design project until some hint of truth can be found. Ultimately it is never found, but if I scrutinize to the point of extraction where there is nothing more that can be done, I can put down the project and move onto the next one. Lately, I have been delving deeper and deeper and trying to find out "how far down this rabbithole" I can go. From art books, science books, billboard signs, gum on the sidewalk, contours w/ in a garbage bin, etc. I detailingly attempt to remember/explore and record all the ideas. 5x4. INTP/type 5 seeks the clarity and the vision that is brought internally into the type 4/INFJ for absorbance and from here the desire for expression, for creation, and design erupts. Hours on end, the ideas/feelings pour outward in a steady stream of consciousness. A couple of nights ago I wrote for 20 hours straight without taking my hands off the keyboard accept maybe a few times to rest.

My claim that I am a hybrid of INTP/type 5 and INFJ/type 4 is only that, a claim, an attempt to understand my very nature. I do not wish for anyone to believe that which they think is off within this post. The ideas I present here are willingly submitted for interpretation and clarification.

Last, one more area I feel I should explore is the sponge that I feel I am. Everywhere I go, I feel I am receiving a steady stream of stimuli from the physical and the spirtual world. Everything enters in through my senses, inner self and intuition. All of the elements I absorb begin to compile deep inside and begin to consume unless they are released.

5x4, as I believe myself to experience this temperament seeks clarity beyond that which is and expression beyond which lies w/ in. In essence, the flood of knowledge and absorbption of all of the feelings and passions I experience are all part of the rythm of the dradles which spin in and out of everything logically and emotionally, eternally and internally, realistic and imagined.

[FranG]

I'm reading the Enneagram now. I'm 5w4 and feel like I am more INTP than INFP. My mystic and artistic side makes a lot more sense now though.

[Tayshaun]

I believe I am 5x4 and also that I am a hybrid of INTP and INFJ. When I am conscious, I deal with the world type 5 INTP style. When I am unconcscious I deal w/ the inner world in a type 4, INFJ style. Or so I propose.

I discovered the MBTI and Enneagrams last September. Although I systematically score INTP and feel "pinned-down" by certain INTP profiles such as Paul James's, the type was always lacking an essential element of my personality. I liked the 5w4 enneagram description and thought it was an extra tool towards completing the general picture of my personality. Oldham's personality styles provided another extra piece of the puzzle. I am idiosyncratic followed very closely by sensitive and solitary. The sensitive description seemed to fit that extra part of me.

I figure the INTP function dynamics (TiNeSiFe) do not seem to work for me. I also feel like a INTP/INFJ hybrid.



First of all, I am extremely sensitive to noises/sounds/color/light/rhythm(including a very synchronized perception of everything occurring while at the grocery store, gas station, etc.) Consciously I ignore everything which happens that would be deemed sensitive, though, when I introspect I cannot say the same for my unconscious. Other people, mostly women have told me I have a gift for putting people at ease and I think this is further evidence of the internal type 4 INFJ.

Last, one more area I feel I should explore is the sponge that I feel I am. Everywhere I go, I feel I am receiving a steady stream of stimuli from the physical and the spirtual world. Everything enters in through my senses, inner self and intuition. All of the elements I absorb begin to compile deep inside and begin to consume unless they are released.


Very similar for me, although I feel safer not releasing these elements.

I have a natural tendency of putting children at ease. They flock around me everywhere I go. Even here in Sweden, where I can't always answer them, they come near me and talk.



In addition to being aware of these internal feelings, when I draw and paint, at times I experience the sensation of feeling things so deeply they shoot through my body and my eyes will water while I express whatever it is that is inside. Once conscious again(after meditation/painting, etc) as an INTP type 5, I have to detach and analyze the bizarre emotional release that my proposed type 4/INfJ subconscious just released.

I'm a jazz pianist, and feel somewhat the same when I improvise. Some phrases uncontrollably shoot out of my fingers. They tend to express something very personal. Improvising is a very "mystical/spiritual" experience for me. I also detach and use INTP to analyze the phrases and harmonies I subconsciously bring out.



Also, as a 5x4 I use my type 5 constant desire for clarity to scrutinize every art/ design project until some hint of truth can be found. Ultimately it is never found, but if I scrutinize to the point of extraction where there is nothing more that can be done, I can put down the project and move onto the next one. Lately, I have been delving deeper and deeper and trying to find out "how far down this rabbithole" I can go. From art books, science books, billboard signs, gum on the sidewalk, contours w/ in a garbage bin, etc. I detailingly attempt to remember/explore and record all the ideas. 5x4. INTP/type 5 seeks the clarity and the vision that is brought internally into the type 4/INFJ for absorbance and from here the desire for expression, for creation, and design erupts. Hours on end, the ideas/feelings pour outward in a steady stream of consciousness. A couple of nights ago I wrote for 20 hours straight without taking my hands off the keyboard accept maybe a few times to rest.

I engage in the same type of 360? absorption and "universal truth" seeking. It's emotionally exhausting and I lose the strength to dig further as soon as I feel a glimpse of providential insight has been discovered. It's a terrible tug of war. I sometimes experience the steady stream of consciousness, the feeling of being both 100% alert and 0% alert. I have not been brave enough to dig deep in myself. These moments only happen during times of depression or illness, when I offer less rational resistance.



5x4, as I believe myself to experience this temperament seeks clarity beyond that which is and expression beyond which lies w/ in. In essence, the flood of knowledge and absorbption of all of the feelings and passions I experience are all part of the rythm of the dradles which spin in and out of everything logically and emotionally, eternally and internally, realistic and imagined.

Poetic and nice description of the 5w4!

[Notsweetynice]

A number of INTPs are 5w4 wings. It appears that a number of INFPs are 4w5 wings. See if this rings a bell.





This makes me think that INTPs who are 5w4 are more likely to be confused over their INTP. Same thing with INFPs who are 4w5. They are both likely INXPs or have not really found their true place.

Definitely true for me. I feel very different from the 5w6 logical bully, but even more different from the 4 artist in pain. Being a 5w4 means I'm probably still a INTP, but with a weaker T. Typical INTPs are nice to hang around with because there is a definite shared way of looking at things. It's only the ones who are so locked in logical rigidity that they can't even enjoy ideas that are annoying. F women are harder for me to relate to and having had difficulties in the past, I think I almost avoid them now.

[Jennywocky]

Definitely true for me. I feel very different from the 5w6 logical bully, but even more different from the 4 artist in pain. Being a 5w4 means I'm probably still a INTP, but with a weaker T.

Perhaps it's not that the Ti is weaker, but that the Ne is stronger. (I have a hunch that INTPs with stronger Se gravitate towards 5w6.)

I think the hardest fight I've got in my life internally is between Ti (the ruthless rigorous critic) and Ne (the amorphous explorer of possibilities). As soon as one takes precedence, the other slaps it back into place, making it hard to move in a direction.

[Notsweetynice]

Perhaps it's not that the Ti is weaker, but that the Ne is stronger. (I have a hunch that INTPs with stronger Se gravitate towards 5w6.)

I think the hardest fight I've got in my life internally is between Ti (the ruthless rigorous critic) and Ne (the amorphous explorer of possibilities). As soon as one takes precedence, the other slaps it back into place, making it hard to move in a direction.

Very interesting, Fortunato. My N is very strong in my personality. I have no problem exploring possibilities; Sometimes my ideas (or ideas that I like) are 'way out there' and probably aren't even true. I still like them just the same. They keep things interesting in an otherwise boring world.

[venerationOFrabbits]

Joining the chorus here, 4w5, not at all confused about INFP.

[nottaprettygal]

I feel very different from the 5w6 logical bully, but even more different from the 4 artist in pain. Being a 5w4 means I'm probably still a INTP, but with a weaker T.

I don't think that being a 5w4 is an indication of having a weak T. Personally, I'm one, and I have a strong T. 5w4s usually tend to be fairly detached from their emotions. I read somewhere that 4w5s can become slaves to their emotions, whereas 5w4s use them as a means to understand the world. That sounds accurate to me.

[Jennywocky]

I don't think that being a 5w4 is an indication of having a weak T. Personally, I'm one, and I have a strong T. 5w4s usually tend to be fairly detached from their emotions. I read somewhere that 4w5s can become slaves to their emotions, whereas 5w4s use them as a means to understand the world. That sounds accurate to me.

The latter part fits my experience. My emotions and values are another source of "data" from which to perceive and draw conclusions about the world. However, I have to go so deep into them (in order to authentically evaluate them), even "becoming them," that they begin to interfere with my Ti process.

(Put another way, it's like being an alien and trying to become human in order to understand humans, but in the process losing one's alien-ness and thus the reason for the original goal.)


Very interesting, Fortunato. My N is very strong in my personality. I have no problem exploring possibilities; Sometimes my ideas (or ideas that I like) are 'way out there' and probably aren't even true. I still like them just the same. They keep things interesting in an otherwise boring world.

That seems to be one of the differences. No matter how imaginative my ideas, if I realize that they don't possess truth at some level, I have to abandon them.

[venerationOFrabbits]

I read somewhere that 4w5s can become slaves to their emotions, whereas 5w4s use them as a means to understand the world. That sounds accurate to me.

I'm tired of emotions getting confused with F. This is not so. And when the younger F's keep hearing this BS mantra constantly being pounded, they actually start to believe it themselves and begin to act in this manner. When I hear the word emotion used it conjures up visions of out of control reactions. Wild and untamed, without form, mush really.

Feelings are sentiments, they give information, and when given structure are very rational. I look at them as being building blocks to a conclusion. If A is good, but B is even better, then how does it effect C? It's information folks. I'm not ruled by my emotions, I make decisions on Value Judgments, in other words I act on what is important and what is not important, depending on my evaluation.

The F doesn't necessarily have to be spilling and flowing all over the place, dripping all over others. This doesn't mean that a F is immune to an occasional blow up, the thing is the F type is often times more capable of deciding when the time is appropriate to have the blow up and when it is not.

[MacGuffin]

Correct. F does not equal emotions.

Fs are more in touch with their emotions, but that is not what Feeling means exactly.

[Jennywocky]

I'm tired of emotions getting confused with F. This is not so. And when the younger F's keep hearing this BS mantra constantly being pounded, they actually start to believe it themselves and begin to act in this manner. When I hear the word emotion used it conjures up visions of out of control reactions. Wild and untamed, without form, mush really.

Feelings are sentiments, they give information, and when given structure are very rational. I look at them as being building blocks to a conclusion. If A is good, but B is even better, then how does it effect C? It's information folks. I'm not ruled by my emotions, I make decisions on Value Judgments, in other words I act on what is important and what is not important, depending on my evaluation.

The F doesn't necessarily have to be spilling and flowing all over the place, dripping all over others. This doesn't mean that a F is immune to an occasional blow up, the thing is the F type is often times more capable of deciding when the time is appropriate to have the blow up and when it is not.

It's a point worth clarifying.

I think there is some confusion, simply because values (Feeling) is personal, whereas Thinking is impersonal/detached -- and since emotions are personal in nature, they tend to have a stronger impact on Feeling/Values-type logic, whereas Thinking-type logic discounts them (in whatever way is appropriate), knowing that they can be an unstable source of data.

[Notsweetynice]

I'm tired of emotions getting confused with F. This is not so. And when the younger F's keep hearing this BS mantra constantly being pounded, they actually start to believe it themselves and begin to act in this manner. When I hear the word emotion used it conjures up visions of out of control reactions. Wild and untamed, without form, mush really.
.

This might sound simplistic, but Fs I've known are more emotional. Emotions are how they interact with the world, but to them, they are not out of control. In no way does emotion=out of control. If emotions get described that way on this forum it is because when a T gets emotional (and it does happen) they feel out of control themselves; It is almost an uncomfortable state to be in. They see emotional people as out of control; Doesn't mean that it is true.

[venerationOFrabbits]

This might sound simplistic, but Fs I've known are more emotional. Emotions are how they interact with the world, but to them, they are not out of control.

True...I think a lot of it is social conditioning. Western culture tends to look down on Feeling and associates it with acting out on emotions, without proper structure, that I believe would be EROS -- as in irrational, when actually there should be more structured Feeling influences in the culture, Feeling + LOGOS. It's not only the T types that perpetuate these faulty ideas either.

[Jennywocky]

This might sound simplistic, but Fs I've known are more emotional. Emotions are how they interact with the world, but to them, they are not out of control. In no way does emotion=out of control. If emotions get described that way on this forum it is because when a T gets emotional (and it does happen) they feel out of control themselves; It is almost an uncomfortable state to be in. They see emotional people as out of control; Doesn't mean that it is true.

Well, for them it is "out of control." It's like trying to play a game you're not equipped for, nor instinctively know the rules to. Plus, there is ambiguity in Values thinking that T's don't like, so it makes them feel uneasy.

But I agree, when you see F's operating naturally, in mature fashion, they navigate very well with their emotions and are masters/artists with them, not mastered by them. They just instinctively know what to do, rather like T's who just "known how" to think impersonally in ways that F's sometimes struggle with.

[GraviTass]

Wow, I have not posted in years..
Just wanted to say I admire your attempt at describing something so ineffable as personal perception. Not only was I sensitive to colors, etc., but I also felt a great sense of 'empathy' even toward innanimate objects *yes*. The strangest feeling - Walt Whitman penned a line that comes close to describing it- "..the first object he looked upon, that object he became.." In the end I concluded something was wrong. I took MANY amino acids. Now I feel , literally, like a different person. What has remained I put down to being INTP. Cheers!

[MacGuffin]

Wow, I have not posted in years..
Over two years... damn!

[Tony]

i am an INTP/5w4, and i love art, music, and science

mainly painting as far as art, musical theory and composition as far as music, and more of the biology and physics side of science

my approach toward learning them is of course lacking in motivation, in fact i am quite "streaky" in my efforts to educate myself

i have given up showing people my failed attempt at perpetual motion, that i made when i was 13 years old...LOL, but i still think about it often, as if it would work in a different world or something

i am so far from being confused about my type, that you would probably be scared...

[Autumn]

I'm INTP/5w4 too and while I'm rather strong IN I'm only slightly TP.
Interesting that while I'd put my weak T to somewhere between T and F, I seem to have strong P features and strong J features at the same time!
So the weakness in my T is very different than the weakness in my P. (Does anyone else feel sg similar regarding their type?)
Back to the OP. I'm attracted to art to some degree (esp music). I also (believe to) have talent for music and drawing and even some to writing. Writing is interesting because I'm rather good in depicting atmosphere but I'm quite unable to come up with an exciting story.
The INTPs' robotic behaviour may apply but only from the outside view (as a rather strong I (introvert) I (self) hide everything - emotions, opinion, motives). Inside I think I have more feelings than the average INTP.
Logic is for me like a separate subsystem inside my mind. I use it when I have the need (and it functionates quite well) . Meanwhile feeligs are morely part of me.
I've read somewhere that INTPs take feeligs as unchangeable. And the example for this was that if they feel sorrow they'd rather listen to gloomy music which matches their mood than to listen to some happy music in order to cheer them up. This applyes me very well.
Still I think that it's not my feelings which guide me thus I'm T.
(Maybe I was to become EF but through nursing I learned to rule my emotions so I became IT?)

[Jennywocky]

I'm INTP/5w4 too and while I'm rather strong IN I'm only slightly TP.

I scored almost 100% in both I and N as well, consistently.


The weakness in my T is very different than the weakness in my P. (Does anyone else feel sg similar regarding their type?)

I don't know. My "J" comes out with my judging function, Ti; it usually only comes out when I'm writing and I'm stating conclusions or tearing apart an argument. Otherwise, when it comes to arbitrary decisions not impacted by Ti, I'm pudding.


Back to the OP. I'm attracted to art to some degree (esp music). I also (believe to) have talent for music and drawing and even some to writing. Writing is interesting because I'm rather good in depicting atmosphere but I'm quite unable to come up with an exciting story.

I can understand that. When I write fiction, I'm really good at knowing what mood I want to invoke, but I have trouble coming up with a specific plot.

I tend to tell myself I am a better 'editor' than I am a solo writer; if someone else gives me something to work from, I immediately see the patterns within it and what could be improved, and I'm good enough to carry out the necessary changes. I think I need more "J" in order to do stuff from scratch, darn it. (And live more in the real world rather than my heady conceptual one.)

I'm a good musician, and a half-decent artist (I'd be better at the latter, but I don't practice much lately -- and visual art is not my first instinct). With music as well, I am very very good at playing in a group, hearing what's happening, and playing off of it in order to make the song "better" or evoke certain emotions.


The INTPs' robotic behaviour may apply but only from the outside view (as a rather strong I (introvert) I (self) hide everything - emotions, opinion, motives). Inside I think I have more feelings than the average INTP.

I dunno. It would seem that way, from the dialogues on the board, but I don't know what people's inner states are like -- I only know what they say. Still, when an introvert writes, you often do see more of the "inner" person, so you could be right.

I feel like I have pretty strong dramatic feelings too -- everything is almost epic in nature to me ("the eternal struggle between darkness and light!"), internally, even while I laugh at such things outwardly. I like movies that are intelligent and also are extremely moving in terms of large philosophical themes or spiritual-oriented growth / actualization.


Logic is for me like a separate subsystem inside my mind. I use it when I have the need (and it functionates quite well) . Meanwhile feeligs are morely part of me.

Mine sort of have a chokehold on each other's necks.


I've read somewhere that INTPs take feeligs as unchangeable. And the example for this was that if they feel sorrow they'd rather listen to gloomy music which matches their mood than to listen to some happy music in order to cheer them up. This applyes me very well.

Yes, for me too. Anything else is a lack of integrity. When I'm depressed, I don't WANT to be cheered up; I'm depressed! And I need to figure out what it IS, and what it MEANS.


I'm not so much sure that the line is drawn between science and art but between empiricism and mysticism. Art seems so focussed on exploring. . . something. Something that doesn't relate directly to manipulation of the physical world.

you wrote this a long time ago... but very very good. That "clicked" for me.

Science and art are not much different to me, they're both about exploration and the search for truth/beauty. The big battle is between empiricism ("objective data") and mysticism ("subjective data"). I am very very very aware of the difference between what I intuit/perceive to be true and what I can show to be true.

edit: Crap. I already responded to the same comment a few months ago. I guess Biff made a good point.

[TaylorS]

Another INTP 5w4 checking in. My 5 and 4 are almost equal.

I'll speculate that 5w4 INTPs are more likely then plain 5 INTPs to desire beauty and elegance in the laws of nature (Fi influencing Ti through Ne?), and often let that irrational desire for elegance overwhelm them (Einstein's dislike for Quantum Mechanics is an example).

[Methofelis]

Hmmm... INTP and 5w4 myself, though I don't feel that the whole idea of emotional outbursts over rationality fits for me.
At the same time, I am deeply involved in my artistic side... but most of my work is of a mechanical/industrial nature, and not elegant.. just disturbed a bit, I suppose.

[Niffer]

today, an iconoclast broke my heart.

[Jivinjeffjones]

5w4 or 4w5. The test couldn't decide, and neither can I.

[Niffer]

5w4's are more open minded with knowledge.

4w5's are a bit prickish ("I am right 99.9999999999999% of the time but not 100% because that would make me sound like a prick." -__-) when it comes to knowledge and beliefs.

[hereandnow]

I'm 5w6 which to me sounds like an old motor oil.

[Niffer]

i'm an 8w9...enfp so i don't know how that works out.

maybe martin luther king merged with chris rock?

[I dont post much]

i'm an 8w9...enfp so i don't know how that works out.

maybe martin luther king merged with chris rock?

Chris Rock merged with Martin Luther King:

"I had a dream dat all o' da ig'nint-ass niggaz, honky-ass crackaz, squinty-motha fuckin' rice pickers, wetback freedom-rafters, will be able to join hands and sing: Free at las', free at las', thank Gawd aw' mighty, my ass is free at las'!"

This of course was not intended to hurt anybody, because I believe stereotyping is not cool and is irrational. Only humorous.

[Lurker]

When I've taken the Enneagram, I've come up as a type 5, type 4, and type 9 tie, followed by type 6. My best friend of 15 years took it for me, and I came up as a type 8 and type 1. The only types I'm sure I'm not are 2, 3 and 7; they are always last. I lost patience and moved on to MBTI.

[celestecheng]

I'm 5w4, and not particularly confused myself. I think that profile overemphasizes the 4 side of 5w4s. This culture likes to view art and science as competitors, and I think that's the thinking behind their comparison of 4 versus 6 wings. I'm a Biology student, and I enjoy drawing animals and human musculature. Science and art, hand in hand. I would suspect that other 5w4s also lean more toward the technical side in their artistic interests.
I am also 5w4, and I agree with what u mentioned above(bolded):banana:

[Gewitter27]

I am also 5w4, and I agree with what u mentioned above(bolded):banana:

Ditto here, in the bold and 5w4 respects.

I am a pretty strong T though. I think my 4 wing only helps me by making me depressed :mellow:

[Jennywocky]

I think my 4 wing only helps me by making me depressed :mellow:

Yeah. It's good at that.

[1104]

most sources attribute the introvert's reserve to emotional fatigue/overwhelm. i couldn't quite relate to that. i withdraw socially more so i can literally reserve what i have intellectually. if i don't, if i continue to relinquish my opinions/thoughts to others, what else is left of me? i think enneagram 5 explains this second motivation well enough, even though i don't subscribe entirely to the enneagram.

[durentu]

I'm not so much sure that the line is drawn between science and art but between empiricism and mysticism. Art seems so focussed on exploring. . . something. Something that doesn't relate directly to manipulation of the physical world.

I've always wondered why there was a school of arts AND sciences. Then I realized that art and science are to nurture each other.

art gets from science discipline and technique
science gets from art imagination and discovery

But for a practitioner, science and art just basically the same thing. Self expression.

[Enthalpy]

Shweet. Was wondering how INTP and Type 4 came together... 5w4 then. *phew, I was worried I was INFP for a while.

[I love INFPs by the way and am currantly in love with the concept of one at the moment so believe me - no contempt meant]

[Faust06]

I'm 5w4, and not particularly confused myself. I think that profile overemphasizes the 4 side of 5w4s. This culture likes to view art and science as competitors, and I think that's the thinking behind their comparison of 4 versus 6 wings. I'm a Biology student, and I enjoy drawing animals and human musculature. Science and art, hand in hand. I would suspect that other 5w4s also lean more toward the technical side in their artistic interests.

I like this post as well.

I find that my interest in technology is often pretty superficial.. and by that, I mean I'm obsessed with aesthetic, and not so much the math behind everything. I do of course want to understand how everything functions, but spare me the details of all the calculus and physics involved. I love the beauty of machines, and that's pretty much it. I also like creative problem-solving, but there isn't much room for that in engineering the way I like to do things. The extent of my problem-solving tastes is visual/spatial, and these days, that's useless unless I'm playing a game.

I'm unskilled in visual art (to my liking) so I stick with music. I would pick up photography as well if I had such disposable income.