Che Guevara myth?

[ShadyShady]

I found this website the other day that claims Che was a brutal killer who executed alot of people...pretty much anyone who disagreed with him.

http://cheguevaralies.blogspot.com/ (http://tinyurl.com/f4xh4)

discuss.

I like wearing a Che shirt and picking up gullible hippy chicks like madrigal :banana:

[distraction tactics]

I did a project on him in high school and came across numerous reports he executed people who stood in his/the movement's way.

[PsiKik]

I think it is more likely that he was a violent terrorist.

Someone gave me as a gift one of those aweful che tshirts. I have never worn it - perhaps I'll find some use for it, perhaps to clean up around my bathroom.

[MacGuffin]

I read he not only executed people, but he enjoyed doing it.

[Claverhouse]

Although his former girlfriend Chichina Ferreyra doubts that the original version of the diaries of his motorcycle trip contains the observation that “I feel my nostrils dilate savoring the acrid smell of gunpowder and blood of the enemy,"


Guevara might have been enamored of his own death, but he was much more enamored of other people’s deaths.


In January 1957, as his diary from the Sierra Maestra indicates, Guevara shot Eutimio Guerra because he suspected him of passing on information: “I ended the problem with a .32 caliber pistol, in the right side of his brain.... His belongings were now mine.” Later he shot Aristidio, a peasant who expressed the desire to leave whenever the rebels moved on.


“If in doubt, kill him” were Che’s instructions.

Sweet site.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Ivy]

I read he not only executed people, but he enjoyed doing it.

I heard one time he totally wailed on a kid for opening a window, and he didn't even think twice about it.

[Madrigal]

I can't read the site right now (I'm at the office), but when involved in a revolutionary guerilla, spies, deserters and enemies are usually killed.

It's interesting how there are two myths regarding Che which are completely opposite, as is the case with most revolutionaries. On the one hand, you have the humanist, the dreamer, and on the other, the cold-blooded killer. These are probably the opposing views of revolution in general. It is usually either the romantic version or the boogieman version.

The version adopted by each individual usally says more about that individual's political tendencies than Che Guevara's.

PS: No Shady, you couldn't pull it off, not even with a 'hippy chick'.

[MacGuffin]

I heard one time he totally wailed on a kid for opening a window, and he didn't even think twice about it.I heard he gave him Pink Belly and an Indian Burn!

[eyebyte_atWork]

It's interesting how there are two myths regarding Che which are completely opposite, as is the case with most revolutionaries. On the one hand, you have the humanist, the dreamer, and on the other, the cold-blooded killer. These are probably the opposing views of revolution in general. It is usually either the romantic version or the boogieman version.

The version adopted by each individual usally says more about that individual's political tendencies than Che Guevara's.


Both views probably have some truth to it as the truth is rarely a black and white issue.

Example: I would kill hundreds of people to ensure peace (or the greater good of saving lives or securing humane living conditions). Am I a humanist or a killer? - I submit that I would be both. Good and Evil are often intertwined.


and that kid had it coming.

[Claverhouse]

I can't read the site right now (I'm at the office), but when involved in a revolutionary guerilla, spies, deserters and enemies are usually killed.

Of course they are. Quite right too. And the bold revolutionaries also have People's Courts to bring justice to the erring. Which was the lowest court in the USSR, a high court in National Socialist Germany, the Supreme Court in the Peoples Republic of China, and a TV program in the USA.


These are probably the opposing views of revolution in general. It is usually either the romantic version or the boogieman version.

The version adopted by each individual usally says more about that individual's political tendencies than Che Guevara's.

Yup, just as it says precisely the same as to how those individuals view the legitimacy of the above People's Courts, and that of their absurd verdicts.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Madrigal]

Stalinist aberrations aside - and by Stalinist I am refering not only to Russia, but the entire degeneration of the 3rd International and its counter-revolutionary acts all over the world, including those committed by leaders who did not proclaim to be Stalinist, though followed its example or implemented its revisionist "theory" in a significant way - yes. I find the idea of People's Courts to be quite appealing. But of course a monarchist would disagree.

[Stillwater]

A che shirt can still work in the right (left) context. Chicks dig revolutionaries. A beret and dangling cigarette helps too. If you really don't want to get laid, wear this t-shirt instead:


http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/scary.jpg
"I'd rather be wearing Che"

Somehow I don't think this shirt would go over well in Latin America. :)

[booyalab]

A che shirt can still work in the right (left) context. Chicks dig revolutionaries. A beret and dangling cigarette helps too. If you really don't want to get laid, wear this t-shirt instead:


http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/scary.jpg
"I'd rather be wearing Che"

Somehow I don't think this shirt would go over well in Latin America. :)

maybe it's just me, but that Reagan shirt is much more of a turn-on than the cliched Che Guevara shirts.

[Claverhouse]

She's sweet. And miserable-looking, which is a turn-on.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[booyalab]

She's sweet. And miserable-looking, which is a turn-on.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

she looks like the love child of Ann Coulter and a cat

[Carebear]

I heard he ate babies for breakfast with tomato beans and some bacon, before he beamed up to his spaceship, brushed his teeth and went back down to earth to draw moustaches on the pictures in the newspapers. Pretty sure it's true.

[Madrigal]

A che shirt can still work in the right (left) context. Chicks dig revolutionaries. A beret and dangling cigarette helps too. If you really don't want to get laid, wear this t-shirt instead:


http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/scary.jpg
"I'd rather be wearing Che"

Somehow I don't think this shirt would go over well in Latin America. :)
That's quite true, it wouldn't.

But the whole beret, cigarette, navy-green look is associated with populist groups here. These people are very confused militants who often end up supporting some bourgeois social-democratic variant, or a bourgeois military leader such as Chavez. Che's followers hardly do any justice to his legacy of internationalism and intransigence. They are for the most part hippy pot-heads who never pick up a book, and who haven't a shred of revolutionary integrity in them.

[Claverhouse]

she looks like the love child of Ann Coulter and a cat

That's a bit of a turn-on too. ( I don't like the colour, but I'd forgive that if she's wearing it as a dress. )


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Stillwater]

But the whole beret, cigarette, navy-green look is associated with populist groups here. These people are very confused militants who often end up supporting some bourgeois social-democratic variant, or a bourgeois military leader such as Chavez. Che's followers hardly do any justice to his legacy of internationalism and intransigence. They are for the most part hippy pot-heads who never pick up a book, and who haven't a shred of revolutionary integrity in them.


Quite true. I think it only works in countries who have not tasted revolution or civil war in living memory. And even then, only amongst the minority you have properly identified.

[Stillwater]

she looks like the love child of Ann Coulter and a cat

I feel sorry for the cat.

[Claverhouse]

He was well-paid.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[joft]

i thought it was common knowledge that he killed lots of people? maybe I just assume that because my dad listens to conservative talk radio/fox news, etc (in which case, I still think it would be pretty common, considering the size of their audiences).

anyway, one guy's failures as a human being say nothing about the correctness of the entire political leaning he vaguely identified himself with, or even his specific movement really

[Claverhouse]

Just like Hermann Goring...


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[kendoiwan]

Both views probably have some truth to it as the truth is rarely a black and white issue.

Example: I would kill hundreds of people to ensure peace (or the greater good of saving lives or securing humane living conditions). Am I a humanist or a killer? - I submit that I would be both. Good and Evil are often intertwined.


and that kid had it coming.

I concur... this isn't rocket science... I'm quite sure George Washington isn't exactly a national hero in the U.K. or in Black america for that matter... Depending on the Cuban you speak to Castro is a God or Satan himself...

And for christ sake who leads a revolution without people being killed in the process... as if the folk being revolted against just go "oh, you don't like how things are being run... here you take the reigns..."<_<

[Stillwater]

People make easier targets than ideas.

[Stillwater]

And for christ sake who leads a revolution without people being killed in the process... as if the folk being revolted against just go "oh, you don't like how things are being run... here you take the reigns..."<_<

Are you making omlets for breakfast? *sound of eggs cracking*

[Claverhouse]

Actually, the British have since the beginning of the 19th century mainly admired Washington and many of them venerated him nearly as much as the Americans did --- there was a lot of British support for the American Revolution ( at least among the upper classes, who were the ones who counted; which is one of the reasons the British fought so ineptly and without any drive ).

And there's a difference between killing people as part of a revolution and killing people because you can. Which is one difference between Washington and this little punk.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[eyebyte_atWork]

Actually, the British have since the beginning of the 19th century mainly admired Washington and many of them venerated him nearly as much as the Americans did --- there was a lot of British support for the American Revolution ( at least among the upper classes, who were the ones who counted; which is one of the reasons the British fought so ineptly and without any drive ).

I had no clue - cool - I learned something. :)



And there's a difference between killing people as part of a revolution and killing people because you can. Which is one difference between Washington and this little punk.
Claverhouse :ph34r:

Maybe - time will tell - it has yet to write itself completely.

[Madrigal]

And there's a difference between killing people as part of a revolution and killing people because you can. Which is one difference between Washington and this little punk.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

Oh yes, and puppies were used for target practice. Meh. The boogieman thing bores me by now. I'm remembering the funniest Trotsky poster, I think he was portrayed holding a knife with his teeth. I tried to google it and couldn't find it.

[Stillwater]

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/democracy_grows.JPG

Neocon propaganda is more sophisticated, but not by much.

[last_caress]

she looks like the love child of Ann Coulter and a cat

I don't know, I'm not seeing any rottweiler. Maybe it was some other sort of dog.

[Claverhouse]

Oh yes, and puppies were used for target practice. Meh. The boogieman thing bores me by now. I'm remembering the funniest Trotsky poster, I think he was portrayed holding a knife with his teeth. I tried to google it and couldn't find it.

So when nazis and fascists are accused of stuff, as it might be using human thumbs for light-switches and human skin for lamp-shades, it's believable; but when a leftie is accused of shooting overmuch, that's boogieman propaganda ?

It's not as if Fidel seemed to hold him in that much of a high regard, and he's not dumb...


Claverhouse :ph34r:

I bet you don't absolve Saddam Hussain, cos the Ba'athists were wicked quazi-fascists, and not Left: whilst the propaganda is just as believable as that which America has put out against any other enemy in the last 200 years.

Notice how defenders of the Second Saddamite war point out, when their military thugs sit on people until they're dead or kick the living daylights out of Iraqi youths, sarcastically that 'of course, this is far worse than dissolving people in baths of acid or putting them through paper-shredders' --- which things the president and his family apparently did every day to randomly selected Iraqi interviewees... As someone pointed out, taking the various American accusations together Saddam killed the entire population of Iraq three times.

[PsiKik]

Here's a picture of my abominable Che t-shirt(which I have never worn and am contemplating using as a swab when I next clean my bathroom.)

I would like to know what the inscription means.
Probably something like "death to the imperialist counter revolutionaries."

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/che shirt.jpg

[Madrigal]

Here's a picture of my abominable Che t-shirt(which I have never worn and am contemplating using as a swab when I next clean my bathroom.)

I would like to know what the inscription means.
Probably something like "death to the imperialist counter revolutionaries."

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/che shirt.jpg
Lol, no. It says, "you must become tough, but without ever losing tenderness."

[Madrigal]

So when nazis and fascists are accused of stuff, as it might be using human thumbs for light-switches and human skin for lamp-shades, it's believable; but when a leftie is accused of shooting overmuch, that's boogieman propaganda?

I wouldn't deny that the Left has committed excesses, however, both the Left and the Right have created and will continue to create exaggerated notions of the enemy's acts. I would not say Hitler is a victim of boogieman propaganda because the gory details imagined by his opposers do not deny the insanity of his acts in my subjective opinion, and therefore add little qualitative information to the analysis of the Nazi phenomenon. Do I care that the likes of Saddam, Hitler and Stalin may have been attributed barbaric acts which they were not responsible for? No, those details are not relevant to my overall analysis.


It's not as if Fidel seemed to hold him in that much of a high regard

I would presume it is because of Fidel's Stalinist traits. His verbal glorification of Che Guevara in order to provide an ideological basis for the Revolution as he conceived it, is similar to the great mythification of Lenin's legacy in the hands of Stalin & Co in the Russia.


and he's not dumb...

He is quite astute, yeah.


I bet you don't absolve Saddam Hussain (...) taking the various American accusations together Saddam killed the entire population of Iraq three times.

I fail to understand how Saddam's villany makes that of the US government pale in comparison.

[PsiKik]

Lol, no. It says, "you must become tough, but without ever losing tenderness."

Ok, thanks for the translation. Actually my brother bought it for me when he was in Argentina(Che was from there not Cuba as many might think).

[Claverhouse]

I fail to understand how Saddam's villany makes that of the US government pale in comparison.

I could have betted you wouldn't get it: you defend a leftist because the capitalists or whomever 'invent' boogieman stuff to blacken his name; but when the same people blacken the name of Saddam with ridiculous atrocities you do not equally denounce them, because Saddam isn't on the Left...


Claverhouse :ph34r:


EDIT: & Saddam couldn't have killed 3 times as many people as there are in Iraq. If you need that explaining...

[Madrigal]

I could have betted you wouldn't get it: you defend a leftist because the capitalists or whomever 'invent' boogieman stuff to blacken his name; but when the same people blacken the name of Saddam with ridiculous atrocities you do not equally denounce them, because Saddam isn't on the Left...

I got it alright. I just don't care. No, I wouldn't bother to equally denounce them. They can pile all of the shit they like onto their names, I won't lose any sleep over it.

EDIT: & Saddam couldn't have killed 3 times as many people as there are in Iraq. If you need that explaining...

Nope, I don't.

[sbw]

maybe it's just me, but that Reagan shirt is much more of a turn-on than the cliched Che Guevara shirts.

me too. even if the coming hyperinflationary depression should be blamed upon reagan (and greenspan)--still, me too.

Scott

[sbw]

And there's a difference between killing people as part of a revolution and killing people because you can. Which is one difference between Washington and this little punk.

this is exactly what I've read; that he was this revolutionary idealist then said "screw it" and started killing people for fun once he was the guy in charge.

I'm certain that claverhouse and others here have more knowledge of the topic than I do; this is merely what I've gleaned from a few sources which are not fox news.

Scott

edit: one of my sources for the above info was a recent book called "empire of debt". the authors attack american politicians from both sides of the aisle for the looming financial crisis...I'm not sure if reagan and greenspan would be considered neo-wilsonians like fdr, lbj, and dubya II...but this book slams them all equally, so I don't think they have a partisan agenda.

[kendoiwan]

me too. even if the coming hyperinflationary depression should be blamed upon reagan (and greenspan)--still, me too.

Scott

:rofl: How about my Suns Scott?:offtopic:

[sbw]

:rofl: How about my Suns Scott?

very impressive given their injuries...I just watched them beat dallas the other night...d'antoni for coach of the year.

and nash probably deserves mvp, even though I'm philosophically opposed to a bad defender winning mvp, because every other mvp winner of my lifetime was either a good defensive player (jordan, duncan, hakeem, garnett, iverson, bird, moses, david robinson) or at least "slightly below average" (like barkley and magic) rather than "almost as bad as luke ridnour", as is the case with nash.

but since he already won last year, my argument has been negated. so he wins over dirk and chauncey.

who ya got in the finals?

Scott

edit: wait for it...

[kendoiwan]

I'm riding with Phoenix all the way...:rocker: When Amare comes back all that driving to the lane as a strategy is finished, I love the Tim Thomas addition too... expect Kurt Thomas back by the second round... Diaw to keep doing what he does... Marion ditto, along with continued great play from the bench... and while Nash isn't a great individual defender they are much improved as a team defensively so with that said... Bring on the Spurs and then bring on the Pistons...:banana: :banana: :cheer: :cheer: :whoop: :whoop:

Waiting for it:whistle:

[sbw]

I'm riding with Phoenix all the way...:rocker: When Amare comes back all that driving to the lane as a strategy is finished, I love the Tim Thomas addition too... expect Kurt Thomas back by the second round... Diaw to keep doing what he does... Marion ditto, along with continued great play from the bench... and while Nash isn't a great individual defender they are much improved as a team defensively so with that said... Bring on the Spurs and then bring on the Pistons...:banana: :banana: :cheer: :cheer: :whoop: :whoop:

Waiting for it:whistle:

you were awaiting complete and successful thread hijacking...

I like the tim thomas addition too...and the suns will have the easy road to the conference finals. I got 'em losing to the spurs/mavs winner, and I'm actually leaning towards the mavs, but only because of duncan's injury status...pistons in 6 over dallas.

Scott

[kendoiwan]

you were awaiting complete and successful thread hijacking...

I like the tim thomas addition too...and the suns will have the easy road to the conference finals. I got 'em losing to the spurs/mavs winner, and I'm actually leaning towards the mavs, but only because of duncan's injury status...pistons in 6 over dallas.

Scott

Dallas:shock: Dallas<_< We were Amare-less, Kurt Thomas-less and we still handled them in a playoff type atmosphere... Same for the Spurs and we play them again on Thursday... We've only played the Pistons once and lost a close one... don't get to avenge that until April tho'... I fear not the Mavs:dieemo:

[Conan]

Raja Bell is the man, Kurt Thomas isnt very good, he fouls out too much.

[kendoiwan]

Raja Bell is the man, Kurt Thomas isnt very good, he fouls out too much.

It's called played that D baby... :rocker: Someones gotta do the dirty work

[Conan]

It's called played that D baby... :rocker: Someones gotta do the dirty work

Theyre defense is underrated, the only reason their opponents score so many points is because their style of play gives both teams so many possessions.

[kendoiwan]

Theyre defense is underrated, the only reason their opponents score so many points is because their style of play gives both teams so many possessions.


top three in point differential my friend

[Madrigal]

God, you guys. I changed my avatar for this thread. Have some respect! :P

[sbw]

top three in point differential my friend

excellent stat. I think detroit is still #1.

also, the mavs d hasn't improved as much as people claim; their better ppg allowed # is mostly because they play at a slower pace than they did in prior years. however, they lost to the suns the other day because they collapsed in the 4th on the road (34-18 suns); could be an aberration, and they will have home court against phoenix in the conference finals if both get that far...

the history of the nba is for teams to take several years to overtake the existing powers. due to age and injury, this could be the year that the dam breaks for the spurs, so I anticipate either phoenix or dallas breaking through to the finals. where they will lose to detroit.

Scott

[Conan]

God, you guys. I changed my avatar for this thread. Have some respect! :P

Good because everytime I saw your last avatar I thought Lee was posting.

[kendoiwan]

excellent stat. I think detroit is still #1.

also, the mavs d hasn't improved as much as people claim; their better ppg allowed # is mostly because they play at a slower pace than they did in prior years. however, they lost to the suns the other day because they collapsed in the 4th on the road (34-18 suns); could be an aberration, and they will have home court against phoenix in the conference finals if both get that far...

the history of the nba is for teams to take several years to overtake the existing powers. due to age and injury, this could be the year that the dam breaks for the spurs, so I anticipate either phoenix or dallas breaking through to the finals. where they will lose to detroit.

Scott

I beg to differ my saavy friend

[Conan]

Dont forget the Celtics, Szczerbiak is taking them over the top!

[kendoiwan]

Dont forget the Celtics, Szczerbiak is taking them over the top!
:rofl:

[Madrigal]

Good because everytime I saw your last avatar I thought Lee was posting.
Oh really? Hehe, that's funny - I don't think he'd be too pleased if you aren't the only one!

He'll be back, btw.

[Conan]

Up and coming, baby, delonte, jefferson, perkins, and dont forget my boy pierce whos been on a tear lately!

[sbw]

Dont forget the Celtics, Szczerbiak is taking them over the top!

WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Scott

[imfrellinggay]

she looks like the love child of Ann Coulter and a cat
:lol::lol::lol::lol:

!!!!!!!!!!

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

If you want an even bigger laugh, read Ann's book "How to Talk to a Liberal (If You Must.)" Did you know that all women who love Sex and the City are just pawns in the gay agenda? They may even be gay men themselves!

[Conan]

I employ many of Ann Coulter's tactics in "How to talk to a Liberal" on INTPcentral.

[booyalab]

If you want an even bigger laugh, read Ann's book "How to Talk to a Liberal (If You Must.)" Did you know that all women who love Sex and the City are just pawns in the gay agenda? They may even be gay men themselves!

I own that book.

[booyalab]

I employ many of Ann Coulter's tactics in "How to talk to a Liberal" on INTPcentral.

I can't imagine why....

[kendoiwan]

Up and coming, baby, delonte, jefferson, perkins, and dont forget my boy pierce whos been on a tear lately!

:rofl: stop it please....

[Carebear]

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=8075&highlight=distraction+tactics inspired me to dig deeper into the obscure history of DT, and this is what I came up with.

1737

"You must become tough, but without ever losing tenderness."

[Serotonin]

Lol, no. It says, "you must become tough, but without ever losing tenderness."

I <3 Psikik for forgoing sex for principle.

[KuJo]

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=8075&highlight=distraction+tactics inspired me to dig deeper into the obscure history of DT, and this is what I came up with.

1737

"You must become tough, but without ever losing tenderness."

go outside.

[Carebear]

ok

[deus ex machina]

I did a project on him in high school and came across numerous reports he executed people who stood in his/the movement's way.

I did as well, and came across the same type of information. As the person below you stated, I would say he fit the profile of a violent sociopath with too much power who believe massacres were okay as long as they are for, what he views, as being a good cause. Much like my current president.

[last_caress]

I did as well, and came across the same type of information. As the person below you stated, I would say he fit the profile of a violent sociopath with too much power who believe massacres were okay as long as they are for, what he views, as being a good cause. Much like my current president.

Please take two 200mg Sedezac tablets and report immediately to the nearest Homeland Security Re-Education Center.

[deus ex machina]

Please take two 200mg Sedezac tablets and report immediately to the nearest Homeland Security Re-Education Center.

I am right. bye.

[Biff_Loman]

I don't see the contradiction between the two versions of Che. Enlightened ideas don't bring us beyond the savage killer apes we really are. We can harbour enlightened ideas, but can we execute them? Ah, that's another question. Whereas the question "can we kill people who piss us off" has a much clearer answer.

[PsiKik]

'you must become tough and tenderly personally execute all those suspected
of treason' - Che.

[mgb]

'you must become tough and tenderly personally execute all those suspected
of treason' - Che.

[please put the other avatar back]

I think when you are fighting for something like he was, it's easy to justify killing people to get it. To him it was probably a life or death struggle, not just for him, but for the people of the continent he loved so much.

You might be able to crucify him for his methods, but not for his ideals.

[Stillwater]

If other people are willing to kill you for what you believe, it makes it easier to return the favor.

[PsiKik]

God, you guys. I changed my avatar for this thread. Have some respect! :P

I changed my avatar to show me fighting the tru battle against the mosquitos. (malaria ? anyone )

[PsiKik]

I will execute mosquitos en mass. As long as they are trying to drink my blood and BUZZ NOISES AROUND MY HEAD WHEN IM TRYING TO SLEEP.

[PsiKik]

I execute any mosquito I find.

[mgb]

I changed my avatar to show me fighting the tru battle against the mosquitos. (malaria ? anyone )

Wouldn't it be somewhat safer and therefore better to have a shirt on when around mosquitos?

I'm pretty sure it would be for us...