Weird or Silly Things I've Found in the Bible

[Dengarm]

I get really bored. When I get really bored I take up random projects. Here at college I have creationists pestering me with pamphlets, flyers, offers of free food and even novels. So I decided to read the bible. Not just skim it like most Christians I know do (no offence to anyone is intended, except a few idiots I know personally) I found all sorts of really weird stuff. Here are some of the more interesting finds.

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
Luke 19:27
- Thats not Herod, Hitler or a mad scientist bent on world domination talking, thats Jesus. Yes the compassionate, turn-the-other-cheek Jesus. Well at least it makes the KKK feel better.

"A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things."
Ecclesiastes 10:19
- Materialism supported by the bible.

"And the Lord was with Judah; and He drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but He could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." Judges 1:19
- He = God he = someone else. So God has no power over iron? Did God become obsolete with the invention of the car or something?

Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men Mathew 2:19
- This is the famous Herod the baby-killer story. But none of Herod's contemporary historians recorded this, not even Josephus, who chronicled Herod's life in full. It's not like you wouldn't notice the death of every child in and around a major city like Bethlehem.

And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.
2 Samuel 24:9
- Thats 1,300,000 fighting men. That doesn't include a population count of women or childern either. Thats a rediculously high number of troops for two tribal armies in 1000 BC. The biggest millitary in the ancient world (Persia) only sent 250,000 on their first attempt to invade Athens and the rest of Greece, and that was a few hundred years later. In 2000 the US had about 1.37 million active duty troops.

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Psalms 137:9
- Just weird. And a little creepy.

Know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
James 4:4
- Oh, so thats why Bush constantly ignores international treatys!

"It was impossible for God to lie." Hebrew 6:18
- :blink: He can create the universe and is generally regarded as omnipotent, but he can't lie? Thats a weirder weakness than even that iron thing.

"And I beheld, and lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." (Revelation 5:6)
- Everyone agrees that the slain lamb is a constant symbol for Jesus. So now Jesus has horns? And who the hell are the seven Spirits of God?


Does God want some people to go to Hell?

Yes
"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned." 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4

No
"God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved." 1 Timothy 2:3-4

"The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9


The next thing has really weird implications. First we have;

"AND Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." 1 Chronicles 21:1

Then later we get this describing the same event;

"AND again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." 2 Samuel 24:1

So . . . are God and Satan the same entity, or do they just work together? Or did Israel really screw up and manage to piss off both God and Satan


AND Finally

God is . . .

. . . a Peacemaker
"God is not the author of confusion but of peace." 1 Corenthian 14:33

. . . a Warrior
"The Lord is a man of war." Exodus 14:3

. . . a Voyeurist?
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: and I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts; but my face shall not be seen." Exodus 33:20-23
- It's a little know fact that God moons all the Phrophets, it's a little like a frat initiation ritual. That is correct, God shows Moses His divine ass.

And that's pretty much all I found. You are now free to rant at me and tell me I'm going to hell.

[Last Song]

ZOMFG YOU'RE SO GOING TO HELL!!!!!!! =)

I read half of it so far ... but I noticed I'm really hungry so I started to just think about food ... I'll read the rest eventually ... interesting stuff. =)

[file cabinet]

what any bible beaters will say is you're probably taking the quotes out of context.. but whatever, I don't really care. Phrases from the bible are always taken out of context to prove points, especially in the church. I am not religious. Although I am pastor's son.. were you reading the King James version ?

[Dengarm]

No, they are, for the most part, in context. I mean how many ways can you interpret Jesus saying "Kill those I can't be bothered to rule?" It's not like Jesus is big on the sarcasm. Okay, Psalms 137:9 is out of context, making it seem more horrible than it actually is, but it's still about killing children, just not your own.

Yes, I was using the King James, as it is the most common, and also it is the only bible accepted by many christians, esp. the damn creationist preachers that won't leave me alone. They keep repeating that the bible is God's word and that the King James is infalliable.

I just checked the Revised Standard Version of the bible though and the only diferences (that affect meaning, there are a few gramatical changes) are, capitalization in Judges 1:19, so god is not weak against iron and changing James 4:4 entirely, presumably to preserve God's free will, and omitting the word parts from Exodus 33:23.

[file cabinet]

> also it is the only bible accepted by many christians
Incorrect. I believe it is mainly the extremists or more traditional believers/denominations who think the King James version is the true 'word of God.' The real true 'word of God' is in Hebrew(I think) though.

[cloakable]

LOL, I'm going to save this page for offline use, cause it's just so damn funny. I have found holes in the Bible, but not documented them the way you have.

I.e.

"do not suffer a witch to live" - I forget where in the Bible this is.
"Thou shalt not kill" - The first commandment.

How does a Christian reconcile these commands? :blink:

[file cabinet]

LOL, I'm going to save this page for offline use, cause it's just so damn funny. I have found holes in the Bible, but not documented them the way you have.

I.e.

"do not suffer a witch to live" - I forget where in the Bible this is.
"Thou shalt not kill" - The first commandment.

How does a Christian reconcile these commands? :blink:

during war you're allowed to kill people. Bush's war against Iraq has been blessed by God.
The Salem witch trials helped rid the world of real witches.
hallelujah.

[PsiKik]

"do not suffer a witch to live" - I forget where in the Bible this is.
"Thou shalt not kill" - The first commandment.

How does a Christian reconcile these commands? :blink:

Exactly. Isn't the ability to see inconsistencies a prime INTP trait!
Back to one of my original assumptions - INTP's are less likely to be religious because we see straight thru this kind of crap.

[PsiKik]

what any bible beaters will say is you're probably taking the quotes out of context.. but whatever, I don't really care. Phrases from the bible are always taken out of context to prove points, especially in the church. I am not religious. Although I am pastor's son.. were you reading the King James version ?

how's this for taking a quote out of context to prove some points...

"And Mishkebab said unto Hebabenite, who was begat by a goat,
go ye unto the land of Moab and cast thy nephilim unto the kebab
Wherepon Mishkebab doubted and was cast into the web of a great hairy
spider man impersonator.
And the Hishkanites were smited by the thumb of the all powerful one
who we shall know as the guardian of the hipobaboonite.

- proof of
a)All you ungodly pinko commie liberal clinton loving baby killing
tree-huggers will burn in hell. Vote Bush

b.0) The earth is 4000 years old. Vote Bush

b.1) Evolution is just a theory, which means it's just an idea, which means
it's not true. Vote Bush.

c) Global warming is just a theory( see b.1) and even if it was true
we are allowed to fuck up the earth because :
a) it says we can in the bible.
b) the end is nigh i.e. Jesus is coming real soon so it doesn't matter.
Vote Bush.
"

[cloakable]

Vote Bush.

No, thats just the way the Right (Reich?) put it. If you don't Vote Shrub, you'll go to hell.

Oh well, at least it's warm there. :D

[Sam172]

hehe, that was great. It reminds me about a recent philosophy lesson where we talked about God. We found out that God could not be omnipotent in the literal sense because:

If God is omnipotent, can he create a stone he cannot lift?


'it's kind of a dammned if you do, dammned if you don't question :p'

[Arioch]

hehe, that was great. It reminds me about a recent philosophy lesson where we talked about God. We found out that God could not be omnipotent in the literal sense because:

If God is omnipotent, can he create a stone he cannot lift?


'it's kind of a dammned if you do, dammned if you don't question :p'

I remember reading a damn good argument why that argument makes no sense what so ever... but I forgot what it was.

So I'm going to say this: can you comprehend infinite power?

I find philosophsying about gods attributes somewhat of a waste of time since I doubt it if we can comprehend them . At the end most arguments are either based on the premise that God exists or doesn't. Which is why most of them are senseless. One begins with a premise and one seeks to prove that same one.

Makes no sense.

[lauriep]

LOL This was great. I have also looked for discrepancies in religion before but have never picked them apart with such specifics.
At least I've have some company in hell.
;)

[paladinoflunaria]

Arioch wrote:

I find philosophsying about gods attributes somewhat of a waste of time since I doubt it if we can comprehend them .

I've always found this philosophy a cop-out. In fact, it's a one of the reasons I became an atheist.

[Arioch]

Arioch wrote:

I find philosophsying about gods attributes somewhat of a waste of time since I doubt it if we can comprehend them .

I've always found this philosophy a cop-out. In fact, it's a one of the reasons I became an atheist.

I just focus my energies on something else. More efficient.

One can think about gods attributes till the end of days yet never get any further. However other things might be more fruitful

[jittus rye]

I heart dragons in the bible The book of Job 40

15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.

Chpt. 41
1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
2 Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?
4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
5 Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
6 Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?
7 Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?
8 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.
9 Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?
10 None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?
11 Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
12 I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion.
13 Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle?
14 Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.
15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
16 One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
17 They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
18 By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
22 In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.
23 The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.
24 His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.
25 When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.
26 The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.
27 He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.
28 The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.
29 Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.
30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.
31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary.
33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.
34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

[Birdsnest]

:mellow:

Sorry, I misspelled something I guess!

[Niflheimian]

I remember reading a damn good argument why that argument makes no sense what so ever... but I forgot what it was.

So I'm going to say this: can you comprehend infinite power?

I find philosophsying about gods attributes somewhat of a waste of time since I doubt it if we can comprehend them . At the end most arguments are either based on the premise that God exists or doesn't. Which is why most of them are senseless. One begins with a premise and one seeks to prove that same one.

Makes no sense.

"One begins with a premise and one seeks to prove that same one." Good point indeed. There is no use arguing because everyone is trying to convince others of their own opinion (or, at the very least, state it); how likely are they to listen to the other folks (whose opinions differ)?

(Thought about answering Birdnest's question, then decided not to; my answer was unfit.)

But I think the Bible states Satin was sent to hell because he abused the power and authority God had bestowed upon him.

[Claverhouse]

(Thought about answering Birdnest's question, then decided not to; my answer was unfit.)

:D :D :D




But since that scenario's not from the Holy Book being dissected here, maybe it's from one of those New Age Cult-type novels written by some lady called Jodi-May Angelinus Kristi Winesacker. Rage of Angels; Light Shall Overcome; or Crystal Armageddon.




Claverhouse :ph34r:


[ Very cautiously: those are made-up titles ].

[ And based on the fact that Satan is rendered Satin ]

[Niflheimian]

Glad you caught that! It's a bit ironic, isn't it?

[Birdsnest]

Can someone give me details on exactly how he abused his power then? Just so we know, I mean, if after all this time humanity has feared something, shouldn't we know the reason behind it? More details if you have them, I think I read this in a Joseph Campbell book.

[Niflheimian]

Can someone give me details on exactly how he abused his power then? Just so we know, I mean, if after all this time humanity has feared something, shouldn't we know the reason behind it? More details if you have them, I think I read this in a Joseph Campbell book.

Well, here's a bit of an article I found on the "net."
Although the pictures of the devil in widely separated civilizations are remarkably uniform, they don't tell us very much about his identity, origin, or activities. To gain specific information concerning his character, we must look to the Bible. Even here, we don't find answers to every question that comes to mind. Still, the Scriptures reveal all we need to know to take him seriously and to frustrate his efforts to destroy us.

His Origin. Satan has not always existed. He and all the other angels were created (Ps. 148:2,5; Col. 1:16). In Ezekiel 28:12-15 we find a description of Satan before he sinned. Although the prophet was speaking to the king of Tyre, there are certain indications in the passage that he was speaking beyond the king to Satan himself. Created by God as "the anointed cherub who covers" (v.14), he was "full of wisdom and perfect in beauty" (v.12) and covered with "every precious stone" (v.13). He was in "Eden, the garden of God" (v.13) and placed "on the holy mountain of God" (v.14). Satan most likely had a special place of prominence in his service to God.

His Sin. Referring to Satan, Ezekiel 28:15 states, "You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you." Ezekiel then added, "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor" (v.17).

Satan's sin originated in pride, grew into self-deception, and ended in rebellion. In Isaiah 14:13,14 we read, "For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation . . . ; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High' " (Is. 14:13,14). Satan's pride so deluded him that he claimed equality with God. This led him to spark a rebellion in which he induced a large number of angels to join him (Rev. 12:4).

His Punishment. After Satan sinned, God threw him out of heaven to the earth (Is. 14:12; Ezek. 28:16,17). His final punishment will come shortly after the end of the millennial reign of Christ on the earth. At that time, Satan will be "cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10).

His Personhood. Satan is not an impersonal evil force. He possesses the traits of personality: intellect (2 Cor. 11:3), emotion (Rev. 12:17), and will (2 Tim. 2:26). Furthermore, personal pronouns are used of him in both the Old and New Testament (Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7; Zech. 3:1,2; Matt. 4:1-12).

His Names. We can learn a great deal about who Satan is by looking at the different names, titles, and representations of him throughout Scripture:

Satan (Zech 3:1; Matt. 4:10; Rev. 12:9; 20:2), used 52 times, comes from the Hebrew word satan meaning "adversary" or "opposer."
Devil (Matt. 4:1; 13:39; Eph. 4:27; Rev. 12:9; 20:2), used 35 times, comes from the Greek word diabolos meaning "slanderer, accuser."
Lucifer (Is. 14:12) means "son of the morning," "shining one," or "light bearer." Even though this describes him before his fall, Satan currently "transforms himself into an angel of light" to deceive the world (2 Cor. 11:14).
Anointed cherub (Ezek. 28:14) indicates that he had one of the highest (if not the highest) ranking of all the angels.
Evil one (Matt. 13:19,38; John 17:15; Eph. 6:16; 1 John 5:18,19) describes him as the personification of evil.
Ruler of this world (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11) refers to his power over the evil world-system of men and demons.
God of this age (2 Cor. 4:4) is used in reference to his power to blind the minds of the world to the gospel.
Prince of the power of the air (Eph. 2:2) describes his pervasive spiritual influence.
Serpent (Gen. 3:1; 2 Cor. 11:3; Rev. 12:9; 20:2) portrays his deceit and craftiness.
Dragon (Rev. 12:3,7,9) indicates his fierce nature and power to destroy.
Accuser (Rev. 12:10).
Tempter (Matt. 4:3; 1 Thess 3:5).
Deceiver (Rev. 12:9; 20:3).
Murderer (John 8:44).
Liar (John 8:44).
Sinner (1 John 3:8).
Beelzebub, ruler of the demons (Matt 10:25; 12:24,27; Mark 3:22; Luke 11:15), literally translated means "lord of the flies."
Belial (2 Cor. 6:15) means "worthless" or "wicked."
Roaring lion (1 Pet. 5:8) describes him as hungry and on the prowl to devour Christians

[Birdsnest]

Fantastic, thanks. Its just that one thing I've learned is that media, religion, and social groups tend to blow some things way out of proportion just to make a story more substantial. It could have been done to drive fear into people, and control them you see, something to make a great "hook" for their loyalty and money.

But I am neither siding with one or the other, I believe in Jesus himself and Buddhism. I don't like the dark side in anything, but I do want to know myself why I am being told to fear something. Otherwise, I am believing something that isn't backed up, and thats not good enough. I do not believe any gossip because I know social groups create gossip to control someone, and manipulate them. What if that was what happened here? What if this was just a manipulation and the guy really did love God only and the reason he disobeyed was because his morals wouldn't allow him to put anything else before God?

If I come across any of the source that I found that in, I will come back and post it. But you are right, you have to watch where the source is. For that matter, the bible isn't necessarily the most reliable source either because they say its the Dead Sea Scrolls that were destroyed that have the real story in them.

[dbedsole]

Sam 172 wrote: "hehe, that was great. It reminds me about a recent philosophy lesson where we talked about God. We found out that God could not be omnipotent in the literal sense because:

If God is omnipotent, can he create a stone he cannot lift?


'it's kind of a dammned if you do, dammned if you don't question :p'"

Man, here we go.
I swore to myself I wouldn't get into all this, but I just have to respond to this one.

The problem is not that the question is unanswerable; the problem is that it is a flawed question. It assumes it's own conclusion, as evidenced by the fact that it is routinely used by atheists or skeptics to "lend weight" to their arguments. Two things are in place:
1) It is assumed that the answer is "no".
2) But it is never asked whether the question makes any sense. It's sort of like saying, "if you can imagine anything, imagine not imagining."
Someone who really wanted to know whether God was omnipotent would ask a question like, "how do we know God is omnipotent?" The unmoveable rock question tests the limits of our rationalism more than the abilities of God.
No offense, Sam172. It's an interesting question to think about, but ultimately it proves nothing, except the limits of our own knowledge of God.

[Dengarm]

First regarding the omnipotence question, it is better asked "If God is omniscient does God know a question he has no answer for?" This eskews phisical rationality and motivational scapregoats and poses a much more entertaining paradox.

Second, regarding dbedsoles post in the other thread

Contradictions? I wouldn't say so. Difficulties? Certainly some, which is common in almost all ancient religious documents. As I mentioned in my first post, a great many of them can be cleared up with good exegesis and a simple willingness to work with the text.

Here are some definite contradictions.

Who was Zerubbabel's father?

1 Chr.3:19
"And the sons of Pedaiah were, Zerubbabel, and Shimei."

Ezra.3:2, Neh.12:1
"And Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel."



Did the men with Paul hear the voice?

Acts 9:7
"And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."

Acts.22:9
"And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."



How did Saul die?

1 Chr.10:4
"Then said Saul to his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. So Saul took a sword, and fell upon it."

2 Sam.1:8-10
"And he [Saul] said unto me, Who art thou? And I answered him, I am an Amalekite. He said unto me again, Stand, I pray thee, upon me, and slay me. So I stood upon him, and slew him."

2 Sam.21:12
"The Philistines had slain Saul."

1 Chr.10:14
"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse."



How did Judas die?

Mt.27:5
"And he [Judas] cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself."

Acts 1:18
" Now this man [Judas] purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."



Whom did the women see at the tomb?

Mt.28:2
"And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.."

Mk.16:5
"And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted."

Lk.24:4
"And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments."

Jn.20:12
"And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain."



Will the earth last forever?

YES!

Dt.4:40
"That thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for ever."

Ps.37:29
"The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever."

Ps.78:69
"The earth which he hath established for ever."

Ps.104:5
"Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Ec.1:4
"One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever."


NO!

Ps.102:25-26
"The earth and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish."

Is.65:17
"For, behold, I create a new heavens and a new earth."

Mt.5:18
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Mt.24:35, Mk.13:31, Lk.21:33
"Heaven and earth shall pass away; but my words shall not pass away."

Heb.1:10-11
"Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. They shall perish."

2 Peter.3:10
"The heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."


No contradictions? Thats just a sample. Don't even get me started on Genesis.

[Seraph]

You know Lot, who was supposedly the *holiest* man in Sodom and Gomorrah? Well, I was a little suprised reading the part where a group of men come to his door wanting to rape the visiting male angels, and he offers his daughters for them to rape instead! He later rapes both of them in a cave after leaving Sodom. Gee, God, that sounds like a real great guy, I'm so glad he was the one person out of the whole town you spared.

[javalady]

Hi, Dengarm!
I heartily recommend the Navarre Bible (available through Amazon). The Bible is actually a collection of many books, not just one. It's more like a library than a single book. Various books are written in different literary styles. Reading straight through, one would not know which parts are intended to be literal, which are metaphors, etc. The Navarre is sold in parts-- one book or group of books at a time. It was produced by the faculty at the university of Navarre in Spain. Each section of the Bible you buy has an introduction which exlains a bit about what was going on historically at the time, and also about the author and his purpose. Then throughout the book, there are a lot of references and explanations that clarify the meaning.
I would never pester people with pamphlets. I think those people mean well, but I find the behavior intrusive and rude. On the other hand, I do think many people are uninformed about the Bible, and also about reasons for belief in God. You really can't make a good decision if you don't have both sides of the argument, for and against God. And you really can;t understand the Bible without knowing something about the times in which the various books were written and the people who wrote them.
I hope the pmphleteeers have not turned you completely against reading the Bible. We intp's are open minded enough to distinguish the message frin the messenger. if you do decide to buy the Navarre Bible, I would recommend starting with the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John). I am cirrently reading the book of Matthew, the Navarre version, and will be happy to discuss it with you if you decide to read it. I bought the paperbakc version for about $15 on Amazon.

Take care!
Javalady


I get really bored. When I get really bored I take up random projects. Here at college I have creationists pestering me with pamphlets, flyers, offers of free food and even novels. So I decided to read the bible. Not just skim it like most Christians I know do (no offence to anyone is intended, except a few idiots I know personally) I found all sorts of really weird stuff. Here are some of the more interesting finds.

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
Luke 19:27
- Thats not Herod, Hitler or a mad scientist bent on world domination talking, thats Jesus. Yes the compassionate, turn-the-other-cheek Jesus. Well at least it makes the KKK feel better.

"A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things."
Ecclesiastes 10:19
- Materialism supported by the bible.

"And the Lord was with Judah; and He drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but He could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." Judges 1:19
- He = God he = someone else. So God has no power over iron? Did God become obsolete with the invention of the car or something?

Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men Mathew 2:19
- This is the famous Herod the baby-killer story. But none of Herod's contemporary historians recorded this, not even Josephus, who chronicled Herod's life in full. It's not like you wouldn't notice the death of every child in and around a major city like Bethlehem.

And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.
2 Samuel 24:9
- Thats 1,300,000 fighting men. That doesn't include a population count of women or childern either. Thats a rediculously high number of troops for two tribal armies in 1000 BC. The biggest millitary in the ancient world (Persia) only sent 250,000 on their first attempt to invade Athens and the rest of Greece, and that was a few hundred years later. In 2000 the US had about 1.37 million active duty troops.

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Psalms 137:9
- Just weird. And a little creepy.

Know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
James 4:4
- Oh, so thats why Bush constantly ignores international treatys!

"It was impossible for God to lie." Hebrew 6:18
- :blink: He can create the universe and is generally regarded as omnipotent, but he can't lie? Thats a weirder weakness than even that iron thing.

"And I beheld, and lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." (Revelation 5:6)
- Everyone agrees that the slain lamb is a constant symbol for Jesus. So now Jesus has horns? And who the hell are the seven Spirits of God?


Does God want some people to go to Hell?

Yes
"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned." 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4

No
"God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved." 1 Timothy 2:3-4

"The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9


The next thing has really weird implications. First we have;

"AND Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." 1 Chronicles 21:1

Then later we get this describing the same event;

"AND again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." 2 Samuel 24:1

So . . . are God and Satan the same entity, or do they just work together? Or did Israel really screw up and manage to piss off both God and Satan


AND Finally

God is . . .

. . . a Peacemaker
"God is not the author of confusion but of peace." 1 Corenthian 14:33

. . . a Warrior
"The Lord is a man of war." Exodus 14:3

. . . a Voyeurist?
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: and I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts; but my face shall not be seen." Exodus 33:20-23
- It's a little know fact that God moons all the Phrophets, it's a little like a frat initiation ritual. That is correct, God shows Moses His divine ass.

And that's pretty much all I found. You are now free to rant at me and tell me I'm going to hell.

[euterpenc]

The bible is not a history, it is a myth, and meant to be symbolic. I can't stand you bible fault finders. I'm not chirstian but it's just useless to pick out flaws in a myth.

[Eileen]

Sam 172 wrote: "hehe, that was great. It reminds me about a recent philosophy lesson where we talked about God. We found out that God could not be omnipotent in the literal sense because:

If God is omnipotent, can he create a stone he cannot lift?


'it's kind of a dammned if you do, dammned if you don't question :p'"

Man, here we go.
I swore to myself I wouldn't get into all this, but I just have to respond to this one.

The problem is not that the question is unanswerable; the problem is that it is a flawed question. It assumes it's own conclusion, as evidenced by the fact that it is routinely used by atheists or skeptics to "lend weight" to their arguments. Two things are in place:
1) It is assumed that the answer is "no".
2) But it is never asked whether the question makes any sense. It's sort of like saying, "if you can imagine anything, imagine not imagining."
Someone who really wanted to know whether God was omnipotent would ask a question like, "how do we know God is omnipotent?" The unmoveable rock question tests the limits of our rationalism more than the abilities of God.
No offense, Sam172. It's an interesting question to think about, but ultimately it proves nothing, except the limits of our own knowledge of God.



C.S. Lewis addresses that question in The Problem of Pain in a very similar way to how you address it.

[snarled]

The bible is not a history, it is a myth, and meant to be symbolic. I can't stand you bible fault finders. I'm not chirstian but it's just useless to pick out flaws in a myth.

Amen to that brother! Some people take things way to literally...

[Claverhouse]

Actually, to devout christians --- prots rather than RC who have never regarded the Little Jewish Book of Vengeance with quite the same awe --- the Bible is not myth: it is true history, a moral guide and the revealed religion which will save the converted soul.

Therefore non-christians have as much right to attempt to pull it apart as with any other guide to life ( everlasting ).

Plus of course the fact that the people who believe this stuff can't even read it aright... As an instance, the story of Onan, fully as uplifting and kind-hearted as any other Hebrew tale, has been generally interpreted as a warning against the sin of self-abuse [ although this is probably unknown amongst INTPs, I feel it best not to explain further what this means ] in reality though the genial Onan was slain by God for disobeying his father's direction that he should father a child on his deceased ( slain by God ) brother's widow.

Even if you can make the considerable leap of faith required to believe that the Almighty choose one particular --- unpleasant --- tribe to be his chosen means of revelation: quite why a large proportion of the rest of the world has acceded to this stupendous belief, and accepted whatever garbage that came into their demented minds to be scribbled down as holy writ, has to be the real question.

And I'd count myself as a cultural christian and a believer in God and an afterlife.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Sackanaka]

Related to why there are situations in which nitpicking ought to be done is when political right infringements are made and the Bible is used as a direct source for laws which, when not regarding the Bible's tenets as Truth, are very controversial and become volatile when taken literally. Thus, if it weren't for those who take the Bible so literally and act upon it by subjecting nonbelievers to the myth-history-whatever, we would indeed need no reason to nitpick. But we do, for our rights, or just sit back and take it I suppose.
But Ghandi was INFJ?

I suppose this would be offtopic but it seems relavant (sp?) to this issue. I was discussing Christian beliefs with a friend of mine who said he voted Bush basically because of Christian beliefs. He's no idiot by conventional definition, but it seemed that, through the interpretations given by his pastor, he believes that some scripture ought to be taken as-is while others figuratively, but it's all up to the pastor since when I asked him myself why he believes so-and-so, he backed off and got defensive. I wouldn't have a problem if he could explain exactly why some parts of the bible are more important than others, and why they have to apply to US gov't anyway (like wtf does separation of church and state mean anymore? either change one side or another; at least then we could jump ship with a clearcut understanding of where our nation's priorities lie.)

[Claverhouse]

I suppose this would be offtopic but it seems relavant (sp?) to this issue. I was discussing Christian beliefs with a friend of mine who said he voted Bush basically because of Christian beliefs. He's no idiot by conventional definition, but it seemed that, through the interpretations given by his pastor, he believes that some scripture ought to be taken as-is while others figuratively, but it's all up to the pastor since when I asked him myself why he believes so-and-so, he backed off and got defensive. I wouldn't have a problem if he could explain exactly why some parts of the bible are more important than others, and why they have to apply to US gov't anyway (like wtf does separation of church and state mean anymore? either change one side or another; at least then we could jump ship with a clearcut understanding of where our nation's priorities lie.)
Still off-topic, obviously most leaders and rulers conform to the major religion in the state --- I include communism as a religion --- but if Bush is a true believer and has the right to incorporate his creed into political action ( and I can't see why he shouldn't, especially since it was part of his manifesto ) suppose Bush decided to take christianity literally and chose to disband the Armed Forces of the United States as being contrary to Christ's message. Would he be allowed to do so ?



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Sackanaka]

suppose Bush decided to take christianity literally and chose to disband the Armed Forces of the United States as being contrary to Christ's message. Would he be allowed to do so ?



Claverhouse :ph34r:
I suppose there are limits to his or any religiously righteous political leader's ability to import/incorporate the doctrines. However, could it be the case that Bush has just seen Christ's message similar to the Crusaders? (and I really ought to look up the Crusades more before using them as an example; sorry.) It's because of the topic of this thread, the ambiguities of Christian scripture and teachings, that cause the phenomena of perceived manipulation. Perhaps Bush is following Christ's message as he sees fit.
Or worse yet, he's not, and this is ultimately a political/governmental issue, and that he's not only manipulating Christian beliefs and believers to curry favor and he's doing the manipulation himself (or with his advisors i suppose). So.. :/
In any case, Christianity is being manipulated and it's negatively affecting those who don't share that value. Of course you can't please everyone but that's not the point, it's to fight against the usage of the inevitably ambiguous or even shady usage of religion.

[Iron Man]

There is an answer to all those Bible verses. I don't want to take the time to go through them all but I could... if you reply with any questions I will take a stab at em. This verse below is true regardless of your current convictions or hopes. So that puts anyone that doesn't want him to reign over them in the cross hairs of the eternal God unless they repent and believe in him before they die... isn't that reasonable?? Yes i know its cutting and to the point but this verse in no way takes away from Jesus' other words of love and how to act with others and there is no real contradiction between God being righteous or a God of Love and his judgments... Him letting his enemy's know this in advance is loving in my opinion.

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
Luke 19:27
- Thats not Herod, Hitler or a mad scientist bent on world domination talking, thats Jesus. Yes the compassionate, turn-the-other-cheek Jesus. Well at least it makes the KKK feel better.

[Unapplied Knowledge]

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
Luke 19:27
- Thats not Herod, Hitler or a mad scientist bent on world domination talking, thats Jesus. Yes the compassionate, turn-the-other-cheek Jesus. Well at least it makes the KKK feel better.

You can make nearly anything look pretty terrible taken out of context -- such as this line, which was part of a larger quote, one of his (many) parables.. in this case, I think it was supposed to be a king or lord or some such speaking within the parable.

The bible has plenty of absurd (and outright funny) things in it that taking things out of context, especially metaphorical speech, shouldn't be a necessity.

[rustynail]

2nd commandment : You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

10th commandment : You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s." Which clearly states that jealousy is a sin.

Therefore, God is a sinner.

[Ill eagle]

all that sounds more ridiculous when you hear it on audiobook.

[Trentham]

all that sounds more ridiculous when you hear it on audiobook.
When I was 12 or 13-ish my mom bought me these tapes of Chuck Heston reading the Bible aloud. I couldn't get the mental image of his character in Planet of the Apes out of my mind. Spent a lot more time laughing than listening.

[Roger Mexico]

I watched that documentary 'Friends of God,' and there's a scene where a preacher explains to a bunch of elementary school-aged children that these passages prove that humans and dinosaurs co-existed. (And thus that the existence of dinosaurs doesn't refute the 6000-year-old Earth theory.)


I heart dragons in the bible The book of Job 40

15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.

Chpt. 41
1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
2 Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?
4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
5 Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
6 Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?
7 Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?
8 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.
9 Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?
10 None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?
11 Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
12 I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion.
13 Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle?
14 Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.
15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
16 One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
17 They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
18 By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
22 In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.
23 The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.
24 His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.
25 When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.
26 The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.
27 He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.
28 The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.
29 Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.
30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.
31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary.
33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.
34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

Also, I was raised Methodist, which makes me in some technical sense a co-religionist of George W. Bush, and my mother informed me a few years ago that a group of bishops had brought a case against Bush, through the UMC's national system for adjudication of disputes, over the Iraq War. The charge was that the invasion violated the UMC's own standing doctrines on just war. Apparently the case made it all the way to the committee just short of the church's equivalent of the Supreme Court before being dismissed for depressingly obvious reasons.

[Yosako]

Actually, to devout christians --- prots rather than RC who have never regarded the Little Jewish Book of Vengeance with quite the same awe --- the Bible is not myth: it is true history, a moral guide and the revealed religion which will save the converted soul.
Save from what? The only thing humans should be saved from is from themselves.

[Ryverblue]

One of my co - workers told me if I voted for Obama...I was voting for the anti christ and all I had to do was read revelations to see the proof. ( I did read the verses recommended but couldnt see where they got that idea from)
Before this conversation this was some one I looked up to. Sad how religion can make an other wise sane person come across like a nut.

[purveyor of truth]

Cant remember the book or verse but it went something like this: If you had the faith of a grain of mustard seed you could move mountains. A mustard seed is small, no christian has ever moved mountains soooo apparently they believe in something they really dont believe in.

Another one I cant remember chapter and verse: It is easier for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. lol That kind of blows it for the conservative crowd doesnt it?

[Yosako]

Before this conversation this was some one I looked up to. Sad how religion can make an other wise sane person come across like a nut.
Probably they weren't a sane person in the first place.

[Yosako]

If you had the faith of a grain of mustard seed you could move mountains.
Faith can move mountains...of people.


It is easier for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven
In another words: "keep yourself poor, so we can easily manipulate and exploit you". The one who wrote that was likely to be member of the ruling class.

[kali]

I looked this up in my bible when I was young (I was raised a catholic) and I thought it was pretty neat at the time. I've read that shakespeare influenced the King James bible translators... but I've also read that it's just a coincidence.

Look at Psalm 46. Look at the 46th word from the beginning and the 46th word from the end. Was your mind BLOWN?*


*probably not

[ryan_m_parr]

Ezekiel 25:17

[camille]

I was raised southern missionary Baptist. As a kid, the story of Passover terrified me. Not only that God would kill babies, and everyone else was expected to kill lambs (everybody needs to get their hands dirty) but that God needed the blood to tell one house from another. Couldn't he just tell? Especially if he knew everything about us, every thought, etc.?

[Jennywocky]

I was raised southern missionary Baptist. As a kid, the story of Passover terrified me. Not only that God would kill babies, and everyone else was expected to kill lambs (everybody needs to get their hands dirty) but that God needed the blood to tell one house from another. Couldn't he just tell? Especially if he knew everything about us, every thought, etc.?

I guess the gist was simply that followers were being given an opportunity to engage and express their fealty openly and deeply, risking reprisal by the Egyptians since their houses were now visibly marked, rather than God needing a designation of some type... but how are kids to know that?

Hell always freaked me out, just in the sense of who might go there, and how long it would last, and how bad it would hurt... and why god would supposedly do that.


One of my co - workers told me if I voted for Obama...I was voting for the anti christ and all I had to do was read revelations to see the proof. ... Sad how religion can make an other wise sane person come across like a nut.

I find it rather fascinating how completely practical and fact-oriented people can simultaneously harbor ideals and beliefs about morality, the spiritual realms, and the afterlife that they would (and do) regard as completely nutty if they saw similar beliefs espoused within another religion. I was immersed in that culture for so long, and it still amazes me to hear the way that people in my family talk about things and just can't see themselves from the outside.

[ChristopherL]

I get really bored. When I get really bored I take up random projects. Here at college I have creationists pestering me with pamphlets, flyers, offers of free food and even novels. So I decided to read the bible. Not just skim it like most Christians I know do (no offence to anyone is intended, except a few idiots I know personally) I found all sorts of really weird stuff. Here are some of the more interesting finds.

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
Luke 19:27
- Thats not Herod, Hitler or a mad scientist bent on world domination talking, thats Jesus. Yes the compassionate, turn-the-other-cheek Jesus. Well at least it makes the KKK feel better.

"A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things."
Ecclesiastes 10:19
- Materialism supported by the bible.

"And the Lord was with Judah; and He drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but He could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." Judges 1:19
- He = God he = someone else. So God has no power over iron? Did God become obsolete with the invention of the car or something?

Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men Mathew 2:19
- This is the famous Herod the baby-killer story. But none of Herod's contemporary historians recorded this, not even Josephus, who chronicled Herod's life in full. It's not like you wouldn't notice the death of every child in and around a major city like Bethlehem.

And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.
2 Samuel 24:9
- Thats 1,300,000 fighting men. That doesn't include a population count of women or childern either. Thats a rediculously high number of troops for two tribal armies in 1000 BC. The biggest millitary in the ancient world (Persia) only sent 250,000 on their first attempt to invade Athens and the rest of Greece, and that was a few hundred years later. In 2000 the US had about 1.37 million active duty troops.

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Psalms 137:9
- Just weird. And a little creepy.

Know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
James 4:4
- Oh, so thats why Bush constantly ignores international treatys!

"It was impossible for God to lie." Hebrew 6:18
- :blink: He can create the universe and is generally regarded as omnipotent, but he can't lie? Thats a weirder weakness than even that iron thing.

"And I beheld, and lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." (Revelation 5:6)
- Everyone agrees that the slain lamb is a constant symbol for Jesus. So now Jesus has horns? And who the hell are the seven Spirits of God?


Does God want some people to go to Hell?

Yes
"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned." 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4

No
"God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved." 1 Timothy 2:3-4

"The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9


The next thing has really weird implications. First we have;

"AND Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." 1 Chronicles 21:1

Then later we get this describing the same event;

"AND again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." 2 Samuel 24:1

So . . . are God and Satan the same entity, or do they just work together? Or did Israel really screw up and manage to piss off both God and Satan


AND Finally

God is . . .

. . . a Peacemaker
"God is not the author of confusion but of peace." 1 Corenthian 14:33

. . . a Warrior
"The Lord is a man of war." Exodus 14:3

. . . a Voyeurist?
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: and I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts; but my face shall not be seen." Exodus 33:20-23
- It's a little know fact that God moons all the Phrophets, it's a little like a frat initiation ritual. That is correct, God shows Moses His divine ass.

And that's pretty much all I found. You are now free to rant at me and tell me I'm going to hell.


I didn't make it past the first quote because it was so horrendously out of context.

Luke 19:11 explains "While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable"

Jesus was telling a story.
If you're going to start right off being dishonest I'm not going to feel inclined to read any further than that.

Sorry.
Thread Fail.

[Jennywocky]

If you're going to start right off being dishonest I'm not going to feel inclined to read any further than that.

Sorry.
Thread Fail.

If you're going to be a lazy ass and damn the whole thread, including other people's comments, based on a problem in the first line of the OP, then I'm going to have to chalk this up as an Epic Post/Poster Fail.

(And no, I'm not sorry.)

[camille]

I guess the gist was simply that followers were being given an opportunity to engage and express their fealty openly and deeply, risking reprisal by the Egyptians since their houses were now visibly marked, rather than God needing a designation of some type... but how are kids to know that?

Hell always freaked me out, just in the sense of who might go there, and how long it would last, and how bad it would hurt... and why god would supposedly do that.

But how is that being given an opportunity when the option is death to your children? More than reprisal from the Egyptians, they would be punished by God for not doing it.

[ChristopherL]

If you're going to be a lazy ass and damn the whole thread, including other people's comments, based on a problem in the first line of the OP, then I'm going to have to chalk this up as an Epic Post/Poster Fail.

(And no, I'm not sorry.)

I skimmed the post and saw his quotes on ecclesiastes as well and it turns out holy shit it's also out of context.

None of you would take a chapter form a random book, pick a sentence and them try to discern meaning from it.

Ecclesiastes is a fucking fantastic look at the nature of man and too see it simply misread out of sheer laziness, stupidity or bias is just plain sad.

I can sum up ecclestiastes thus:

Humanity sucks, chasing after money is stupid, but not chasing after money is no way to live.
We all die someday so party it up and enjoy whatever it is you work for.

It's not at all contradictory, it's a pragmatic view of humanity then as now, it's also excellent advice.
Life sucks, you can't do anything about it except have fun now.

If you read one verse or chapter in Ecclesiastes it will appear contradictory because the author explores both ways of living; that is seeking after power and denouncing power and did not find happiness in either side.

Hell my favorite quote of the moment comes from Ecclesiastes:

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow."


The message? stop thinking so hard, you'll only make yourself miserable.
Sound familiar?


P.S I'm done with this thread, noone here would read random pages from a book and then claim to have some sort of claim to authority on it's message and yet here we are.

The OP Clearly didn't read either ecclesiastes or luke in it's entirety so why should I take anything he says seriously?

[purveyor of truth]

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow."


The message? stop thinking so hard, you'll only make yourself miserable.
Sound familiar?

Is that the message?

[camille]

Hell my favorite quote of the moment comes from Ecclesiastes:

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow."




Then why read the Bible at all? Why have Bible study groups? Why listen to a preacher? Why listen to prophets? Why study anything?

Is it not better then to be mentally incapacitated?

Or does this only refer to seeking wisdom in spirituality?

[purveyor of truth]

Then why read the Bible at all? Why have Bible study groups? Why listen to a preacher? Why listen to prophets? Why study anything?

Is it not better then to be mentally incapacitated?

Or does this only refer to seeking wisdom in spirituality?
Maybe it is better for that person, I just dont like dealing with their false "knowledge"

[aphemix]

Cant remember the book or verse but it went something like this: If you had the faith of a grain of mustard seed you could move mountains. A mustard seed is small, no christian has ever moved mountains soooo apparently they believe in something they really dont believe in.this is true, on both counts.

[Jennywocky]

But how is that being given an opportunity when the option is death to your children? More than reprisal from the Egyptians, they would be punished by God for not doing it.

True. It's sort of fucked up, isn't it?

... although they had to believe that God actually would destroy the first-born.

And did the Israelities know the first-born were going to be killed? Moses seemingly did, but I don't remember if the general Jewish population was all told what was going to happen ahead of time. They might have just been making a choice based on faith, not fear that time.

And then, we are also assuming the story is historically true and accurate in its details.


Maybe it is better for that person, I just dont like dealing with their false "knowledge"

Not all study groups are the same, but it's far too easy for them to become indoctrination vats rather than actually searching for wisdom. Part of it's the mindset of the leaders: "The world is going to hell, I know the truth, I'm going to share truth with these people that will change and improve their lives spiritually, I know what's best for them because it was best for me," etc.

[ChristopherL]

Then why read the Bible at all?

Why have Bible study groups? Why listen to a preacher? Why listen to prophets? Why study anything?

Is it not better then to be mentally incapacitated?

Or does this only refer to seeking wisdom in spirituality?
Ecclesiastes 2:14
"The wise man's eyes are in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all."

Translation: Its better to know what you are dealing with than to simply walk around blindly.

Someone here has a quote in their signature that says "Logic will break your heart" and it will, but it's only through being aware of the way of the world that you can make a decision that works for you personally.
No preacher can explain this to you, no parent can provide the answer.
You have to seek it out on your own.
If you wonder why Suicide rates are so high in the gifted, now you know. The knowledge of mankind's plight and our role in it is simply too much for some people.
Especially if it runs counter to everything they have previously believed.

I highly suggest you toss out everything you think you know about what the bible says and just read Ecclesiastes on it's own. if I were to make a pamphlet of the nature of life it would come very close to Ecclesiastes.

[Jennywocky]

Humanity sucks, chasing after money is stupid, but not chasing after money is no way to live.
We all die someday so party it up and enjoy whatever it is you work for.

Actually, read the end of Ecclesiastes again, it looks like once more you got bored and bailed before reading the whole thing.

At the end of Chapter 11, the segue from your idea into the actual ending of the book:


7 Light is sweet,
and it pleases the eyes to see the sun. 8 However many years a man may live,
let him enjoy them all.
But let him remember the days of darkness,
for they will be many.
Everything to come is meaningless.
9 Be happy, young man, while you are young,
and let your heart give you joy in the days of your youth.
Follow the ways of your heart
and whatever your eyes see,
but know that for all these things
God will bring you to judgment.
10 So then, banish anxiety from your heart
and cast off the troubles of your body,
for youth and vigor are meaningless.


i.e, enjoy life and don't be troubled about it, but know that you will still have to pay for your choices.


Now, onto Chapter 12. The last comment in the book (whether it was tagged on or not by later scribes) is this:


13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.


Hence, in the end, it still comes down to serving and "fearing" (in the sense of respecting and trusting) God.

[ChristopherL]

Your conclusion depends on how you view the nature of god.

"15All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a just man that perisheth in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongeth his life in his wickedness.

16Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself ?

17Be not over much wicked, neither be thou foolish: why shouldest thou die before thy time?

18It is good that thou shouldest take hold of this; yea, also from this withdraw not thine hand: for he that feareth God shall come forth of them all.

19Wisdom strengtheneth the wise more than ten mighty men which are in the city.

20For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

21Also take no heed unto all words that are spoken; lest thou hear thy servant curse thee:

22For oftentimes also thine own heart knoweth that thou thyself likewise hast cursed others.

23All this have I proved by wisdom: I said, I will be wise; but it was far from me. "


Read that carefully, essentially he is saying that you should sin if it necessary to survive since he's referring to retaining ones life he is more or less condoning murder in the defense of ones self.

Of course this sort of thing does not come without its own perils.

If you think of God in the context of someone in the heavens throwing lightning bolts then you will walk away with one idea, but if you consider God to be US, our individuals selves the price you pay is in losing a part of yourself either mentally or physically.

I said I was bailing on this thread and I am now. I need to be working.

[camille]

Ecclesiastes 2:14
"The wise man's eyes are in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all."

Translation: Its better to know what you are dealing with than to simply walk around blindly.

Someone here has a quote in their signature that says "Logic will break your heart" and it will, but it's only through being aware of the way of the world that you can make a decision that works for you personally.
No preacher can explain this to you, no parent can provide the answer.
You have to seek it out on your own.
If you wonder why Suicide rates are so high in the gifted, now you know. The knowledge of mankind's plight and our role in it is simply too much for some people.
Especially if it runs counter to everything they have previously believed.

I highly suggest you toss out everything you think you know about what the bible says and just read Ecclesiastes on it's own. if I were to make a pamphlet of the nature of life it would come very close to Ecclesiastes.

Suicide rates aren't high because of the knowledge, they are high because gifted are often overly critical of themselves - perfectionists, or are forced into boxes as children and not given the guidance and security they need to feel confident in exploring their emotions and tics and habits, or are made to feel so special that they can only see fault and inferiority in others and can't stand the thought of becoming anymore inferior than they already feel, or have created a place inside their heads in which they are the truly wise (little kingdoms if you will) and feel they cannot be happy when those kingdoms are not reality.

Or some combination of all of the above and a few more which I have already written about in my blog and elsewhere.

Knowledge, even with the sorrow it brings, is not the reason for suicide, nor any I have heard of. Even the knowledge in knowing and understanding you are different.

While many gifted can easily attain knowledge, some lack the wisdom and life experience to know what to do with it. The gifted people I have known who have had hard lives are much more laid back and easy going and more accepting and understanding and much much more willing to seek knowledge, not file away written words for later use.

EDIT: To the bold, this is much more about emotions which the majority feel and experience. People get depressed (even the regular ole folks) because they know but can't figure out what to do or how to express.

[Ferrus]

Suicide rates aren't high because of the knowledge, they are high because gifted are often overly critical of themselves - perfectionists, or are forced into boxes as children and not given the guidance and security they need to feel confident in exploring their emotions and tics and habits, or are made to feel so special that they can only see fault and inferiority in others and can't stand the thought of becoming anymore inferior than they already feel, or have created a place inside their heads in which they are the truly wise (little kingdoms if you will) and feel they cannot be happy when those kingdoms are not reality.
They also tend to have a greater depth of feeling that comes from a more profound understanding of meanings, from what I understand.

[camille]

They also tend to have a greater depth of feeling that comes from a more profound understanding of meanings, from what I understand.

I think some. Part of the testing I went through as a child was about feelings and emotions....not just my IQ tests. Some say there is a difference between gifted and high intelligence, that high intelligence is just one aspect of the gifted. The emotions are very complex and overwhelming if not nurtured correctly, geared toward the individual child instead of all gifted children in general.

But shouldn't every child learn and be nurtured as an individual?

[camille]

They also tend to have a greater depth of feeling that comes from a more profound understanding of meanings, from what I understand.

I keep coming back to this but I know I'm going to derail. LOL Just move wherever.

You know, I'm not sure why that becomes such a negative thing in some and positive in others. Just looking at the ground I've covered over the past two or three years assures me that whatever I have inside of me that processes feelings and emotions the way it does is absolutely beautiful (and you have all read some of the ugly things I've written).

Hypersensitivity is an issue, as well. So much of these 'problems' are due to the way the brain is wired, not knowledge acquired. To be unable to escape those sensitivities can make your heart pound and your heart ache, bring on anxiety attacks. I can't wear certain things because the material or snaps on the clothing drives me insane. I can't focus on anything else but that feeling. Same goes for buckles banging in the clothes dryer. Just things that completely interfere with my thought processes and make me physically ill.

Like I wrote before about starving children in Africa....there are some places you have to learn not to go in your head and in your heart. There is a shut off which I know many gifted people either can't or refuse to use. I've written before that I like my moods. I like that I sometimes fall into a place that I have to write myself out of. The work is so wonderful.

But you have to learn how to balance that and I think that is where learning proper blocking techniques and experimenting as a child comes in. Without that freedom to experiment, or the understanding that you must do those things and it's okay, you can never find the balance necessary to live comfortably with yourself.

I know some gifted people who are incredibly intelligent and absorb everything you tell them and show them, but have the emotional mentalities of eight year old children. I'm not sure if they were coddled or if it's the dark side of their giftedness...much like mine was the self destructive behavior I exhibited in my teens/early twenties.

EDIT: And ChristopherL,

Ecclesiastes 2:14
"The wise man's eyes are in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all."

My interpretation is the same thing will happen to both of them....one is not better off than the other because fate will not make a distinction between the two.

And it says nothing about wise men in the darkness also, only that they had eyes in their heads. For all we know, the wise man knows there is a torch in the corner but stands still and waits for the fool to stumble upon it.

[ChristopherL]

But shouldn't every child learn and be nurtured as an individual?

This is exceedingly difficult.

[camille]

This is exceedingly difficult.

Not necessarily. We rarely ask children what they want or need. We tell them what they want or need because it takes less effort from us.

My oldest son I could rationalize with when he was two, even going so far as to use emotions (which I know some call emotional blackmail). His early childhood was spent reflecting how his actions and other people's reactions affected other people.

The baby (four years), on the other hand, does not care. It is all about him and how everything relates to him.

While they both learned the alphabet similarly (phonetically), and I presented it in similar fashion, the oldest wanted to learn to read because he knew I liked to read. The youngest wants to learn to read so he can read his own books. It's just about finding that drive, which even in a classroom, and at that age, will not be drastically different for each child. But acknowledging that you know 'why' they want something or need something from you makes the difference.

We often fail to listen to children.

[Ojian]

Here are some definite contradictions..

Usually these supposed contradictions are fun to answer. But this seems to be the usual cherry picking from the same old list that is always brought up. Context and/or understanding the history will usually answer these easily. I'll try to be quick.


Who was Zerubbabel's father?

1 Chr.3:19
"And the sons of Pedaiah were, Zerubbabel, and Shimei."
Ezra.3:2, Neh.12:1
"And Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel."

Zerubbabel is the son of Shealtiel at most references (Mt 1:12; Ezr 3:2; Ne 12:1; Hag 1:14; Lu 3:27)
Shealtiel was brother to Pedaiah. Evidently Zerubbabel was the natural son of Pedaiah and the legal son of Shealtiel by reason of brother-in-law marriage (Deuteronomy 25:5-10); or possibly, after Zerubbabel’s father Pedaiah died, Zerubbabel was brought up by Shealtiel as his son and therefore became legally recognized as the son of Shealtiel.


Did the men with Paul hear the voice?

Acts 9:7
"And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."

Acts.22:9
"And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."

Read the whole accounts mentioned and context will usually make it pretty simple to understand. Nevertheless, when translated into English and if taken too literally it loses some of the flavor and meaning seen in the original language.

The Greek word for “voice” (pho·ne?) at Acts 9:7 is in the genitive case (pho·nes?) and gives, in this verse, the sense of hearing of a voice—hearing the sound but not understanding. At Acts 22:9 pho·ne? is in the accusative case (pho·nen?): the men “did not hear the voice”—they heard the sound of a voice but did not get the words, the meaning; they did not understand what Jesus was saying to Saul, as Saul did. (Ac 9:4) Understanding the Bible’s use of the idea of ‘hearing’ in both senses helps to clear up what would otherwise seem to be discrepancies.


How did Saul die?

1 Chr.10:4
"Then said Saul to his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. So Saul took a sword, and fell upon it."

2 Sam.1:8-10
"And he [Saul] said unto me, Who art thou? And I answered him, I am an Amalekite. He said unto me again, Stand, I pray thee, upon me, and slay me. So I stood upon him, and slew him."

2 Sam.21:12
"The Philistines had slain Saul."

1 Chr.10:14
"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse."

In a conflict with the Philistines, Saul was mortally wounded, asked his armor bearer to finish him off, which was refused, the committed suicide by falling on his own sword. 2 Sam.1:8-10 is the account of the armor-bearer, boasting that he had put the wounded king to death. This was evidently a lie, designed to gain David’s favor, to which David put the armor-bearer to death based on his claim because Saul had been God's annointed one.
who in trying to lied to David, tried to take credit for killing.
2 Sam.21:12 - context! He was effectively killed in the battle with the Philistines. Some translations use the words "struck down" instead of "slain"
1 Chr.10:14 - read vs 13 also and the context then makes it understandable. Because of Sauls unfaithfulness, God allowed him to die and David was then made king.


How did Judas die?

Mt.27:5
"And he [Judas] cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself."

Acts 1:18
" Now this man [Judas] purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."
While Matthew seems to deal with the mode of the attempted suicide, Acts describes the results. Judas apparently tied a rope to the branch of a tree, put a noose around his neck, and tried to hang himself by jumping off a cliff. It seems that either the rope or the tree limb broke so that he plunged downward and burst open on the rocks below. The topography around Jerusalem makes such a conclusion reasonable.


Whom did the women see at the tomb?

Mt.28:2
"And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.."

Mk.16:5
"And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted."

Lk.24:4
"And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments."

Jn.20:12
"And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain."

This is just the same account told by different persons, each highlighting different details of the story. The women saw two angels in the appearance of men at the tomb. One of the angels likely took the lead in speaking to the women, and is thus highlighted in the account.




Will the earth last forever?

YES!

Dt.4:40
"That thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for ever."

Ps.37:29
"The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever."

Ps.78:69
"The earth which he hath established for ever."

Ps.104:5
"Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Ec.1:4
"One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever."


NO!

Ps.102:25-26
"The earth and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish."

Is.65:17
"For, behold, I create a new heavens and a new earth."

Mt.5:18
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Mt.24:35, Mk.13:31, Lk.21:33
"Heaven and earth shall pass away; but my words shall not pass away."

Heb.1:10-11
"Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. They shall perish."

2 Peter.3:10
"The heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

again, context is key. Also, sometimes “heavens” and “earth” are not always applied to the literal heavens and earth. under the 'NO' section, all the scriptures except 2 Peter 3:10 are effectively a hyperbole. They are highlighting the permanence of the Father and the Son. The heavens and earth are destructible comparatively.
For 2 Peter, read the rest of the chapter for context. He refers to the world of Noah's day in vs 5-7 as being destroyed. 'Earth' then refers to wicked human society that will be destroyed.