Rationality / Irrationality

[Kljoki]

From here: - http://www.socionics.us/theory/rat_irr.shtml

Of course the only way to correctly determine whether or not you are rational or irrational is to correctly identify your relation with somebody whose type is proven.
But here are a couple of tips in differentiating rational and irrational behavior:

Definition:
rational types have logic or ethics as their leading function (http://www.socionics.us/images/eL.gif, http://www.socionics.us/images/iL.gif, http://www.socionics.us/images/eE.gif, or http://www.socionics.us/images/iE.gif), while irrational types have intuition or sensing (http://www.socionics.us/images/eN.gif, http://www.socionics.us/images/iN.gif, http://www.socionics.us/images/eS.gif, or http://www.socionics.us/images/iS.gif). In addition, all accepting functions of rationals are rational and all producing functions are irrational, and vice-versa for irrationals.
perception

RATIONAL TYPES
attention focused on correct actions and emotions (logic and ethics), which produce certain states of mind and body (intuition and sensing)
act according to their expectation of a situation; form an expectation or plan, then act
during communication attention is focused on words and speech
immediate reactions to words, actions, and emotions
are drawn to stable, reliable systems and situationsIRRATIONAL TYPES
attention focused on correct states of mind and body (intuition and sensing), which produce certain actions and emotions (logic and ethics)
act according to their current state of mind (impulsiveness)
during communication attention is focused on mental images
react not to words, actions, and emotions but to changes in their inner state created by others' words, actions, and emotions
are drawn to systems and situations with uncertain outcomesphysiology

RATIONAL TYPES
angular, discrete movements
internal tension (readiness)
straight lines and angles in face and body
linear biorhythms, actions, emotions, and moods
more stable psychic states
flourish in structured environmentsIRRATIONAL TYPES
smooth, unbroken body movements and gestures
internal relaxedness
gentle lines in face and body
cyclical biorhythm, actions, emotions, and moods
greater range of psychic states
flourish in unstructured environmentsemotions


RATIONAL TYPES
sharper, brighter emotions as immediate response to others' emotions, actions, and words
less moody, but moods last longerIRRATIONAL TYPES
'softer' emotions that are adapted to situation
tend to be moodier with more impulsive emotions, but moods change more quicklystrengths


RATIONAL TYPES
act decisively and keep correct course in stable circumstances
keeping things under order
completing one task before starting anotherIRRATIONAL TYPES
act decisively in unstable circumstances
improvisation; changing plans midstream
doing several tasks at onceweaknesses


RATIONAL TYPES
easily disoriented when put in situations with quickly changing rules
often have difficulty relaxing after tasks are overIRRATIONAL TYPES
become passive and lose interest in unchanging environment
often have difficulty getting revved up sufficiently for task at hand until there is a crisisbehavior in relationships


RATIONAL TYPES
like to discuss their actions, emotions, attachments, and rules of relationship
sequential relationship development: “we're dating;” “we're together now;” “we're living together now;” etc.
emotional and physical closeness increases or decreases linearlyIRRATIONAL TYPES
like to discuss their states of mind, sensations, understanding of themselves and each other
nonsequential relationship development; structure emerges only in hindsight
emotional and physical closeness evolves nonlinearly, in waves

[April]

What do you think are some of the main differences between Socionics rational/irrational types and Myers-Briggs J/P types? The characteristics listed under "strengths" and "weakness" just seem like J/P strengths and weaknesses to me. Also, I don't really understand how rational types have "immediate reactions to words, actions, and emotions." I have very quick reactions to things and I get sudden intense gut feelings about things... but some amount of internalization is needed for even that. How can you have a reaction to a word, and not react to how you perceive that word, or how it changes your "inner state"? This makes it seem like we're all irrational types.

[INTrPosr]

What do you think are some of the main differences between Socionics rational/irrational types and Myers-Briggs J/P types? The characteristics listed under "strengths" and "weakness" just seem like J/P strengths and weaknesses to me.Actually, that is what rational/irrational means. J-types (Fe,Te) are rationals and P-types (Se,Ne) are irrationals.
Also, I don't really understand how rational types have "immediate reactions to words, actions, and emotions." I have very quick reactions to things and I get sudden intense gut feelings about things... but some amount of internalization is needed for even that. How can you have a reaction to a word, and not react to how you perceive that word, or how it changes your "inner state"? This makes it seem like we're all irrational types.Not quite sure I agree with that theory myself April, but maybe it's due to the rational types need for immediate closure, as opposed to the irrational needing to internalize first and are willing to take in or discover additional facts before making their decision known.

[waxwing]

I am dominant Ne, and according to these guidelines, 100% irrational.

Helpful, Kljoki.

You know what I was going to ask you....

Not sure if it fits in this thread, but maybe at some point you could explain the subtypes in socionics (logical and intuitive) and how they fit in with rational and irrational types (e.g. What does ENTp logical subtype amount to?)

[April]

Actually, that is what rational/irrational means. J-types (Fe,Te) are rationals and P-types (Se,Ne) are irrationals.

INFjs in Socionics use Fi, Ne. INFPs in Myers-Briggs use Fi, Ne. So you can't use rational and J or irrational and P interchangeably. I notice that you only listed extraverted functions, which yes, your point works for. But it's not the same for introverted types. This is why so many introverts who already know their Myers-Briggs type have a hard time figuring out their Socionics type.

[Kljoki]

What do you think are some of the main differences between Socionics rational/irrational types and Myers-Briggs J/P types? The characteristics listed under "strengths" and "weakness" just seem like J/P strengths and weaknesses to me. Well, the main difference would be that socionics is not a personality theory. But to further elaborate, the scales do not describe behavior. The only point out the nature of functions in the model of psyche of a person. What I have posted are just some behaviors associated with accepting rational and irrational functions and producing rational and irrational functions.
Irrational types have irrational accepting functions and rational producing functions.
Rational types have rational accepting functions and irrational producing ones.
accepting - Ability to reflect or “photograph” and reproduce information of a certain kind.
producing - Ability to produce new things of a certain kind based on information from the preceding accepting function.In MBTT the scales directly describe behavior while in Socionics they describe the functioning of the psyche and indirectly only influence behavior. Being ISTp in socionics does not meen behaving like an ISTp, it means having your brain wired like an ISTp. You behavior could be that typical to an ENTp or any other type. Although, some types are unlikely to happen, like an INTp behaving like a ENFj for instance. But behavior is mostly an environmental thing so under certain circumstance that too could happen.


Also, I don't really understand how rational types have "immediate reactions to words, actions, and emotions." I have very quick reactions to things and I get sudden intense gut feelings about things... but some amount of internalization is needed for even that. How can you have a reaction to a word, and not react to how you perceive that word, or how it changes your "inner state"? This makes it seem like we're all irrational types. No one is disputing the internalization of ones perception. The main issue is the orientation of these perceptions.
An orientation on the words, actions, and emotions themselves, what they are and their constructs would be a rational way
An orientation on the perception of these words, actions, and emotions, what they represent and their realization would be an irrational way
At least that's the way I understood it. I am basicly just like you, only trying to understand this. I have no empirical backup nor understaning so this is all shaky theory and speculation to me.

Not sure if it fits in this thread, but maybe at some point you could explain the subtypes in socionics (logical and intuitive) and how they fit in with rational and irrational types (e.g. What does ENTp logical subtype amount to?)Go here: - http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3182&start=0