careers for stupid INTPs? need advice

[Lucy]

I know this must sound like a strange thing to ask, but I figure it's worth a try. Basically, I think I'm a fairly typical INTP. And, personality-wise, my ideal career would be one of the ones that jetboots described earlier (researcher, analyst, designer, etc).

The problem is that all these jobs would seem to require superior intelligence or talent, and, so far as I can see, I'm not really that intelligent or talented. So what do you do I you have a persistent yearning to understand the world, to create beautiful things, and analyse everything, and this distracts you from more practical pursuits, but then you're too stupid to ever really understand anything anyway?

My "career" so far (I'm 27) has basically consisted of studying a lot, including working on a PhD in math right now, with periodic bouts of dropping out and doing things that I feel you don't need to be that smart to do

(or atleast, if you do need smarts to do properly, they don't pay enough to expect smart people), but that will atleast make me of use to somebody - working as a photocopy assistant, a filing clerk, at fast food outlets, in a store, etc.,

because I feel like I'm too stupid and shouldn't be wasting everyone's time, then finding that I'm crap at those supposedly intellectually unchallenging things or get depressed doing them (and they pay less than my phd stipend), so coming back to study/research out of selfishness, even though I still have an underlying belief that I'm too stupid to create anything of worth and everything I've done is fairly derivative.

I really don't know what I should do. Does anyone else have this problem?

[KuJo]

if you get the Phd in math, atleast you would have the security of finding a job fairly easily. you should work from there, then decide what to do about careers.

[nomir_dva]

I can't imagine that you are stupid if you are going for a Ph.D in math. I frequently doubt my own intellectual abilities, but I am reminded all too often that most people overestimate theirs.

I'm afraid that I cannot offer you any career advice, as I am eighteen and have no idea what to do with my own life.

[Kilby]

If you have a yearning, follow it. You have to be somewhat smart if you are in a math PHD program. take a step back and look at life for real. You don't belong in some crappy job and you must know that because you hate them. If you were to fail in something great the crap will always be there to fall back on. Plato said that it is okay for children to be scared of the darkenss, but it's a shame when adults are afraid of the light. And dostoyevsky stated that there is no subject about which something knew cannot be said. I'm in a similar position to you, but I'm not in a PHD program, so hell, you're doing better than Kilby, but that's not important. Once you can find something to commit to then you've got it made. It comes down to how bad you want it. In the end, your comtributions may not be that great, but at least you willl have lived with purpose and meaning when many people in this country don't do crap and love every minute of it. When I fall into this trap I think about how it could all end in the next minute...a heart attack... or a military draft...or something that would turn my life upside down and then what would I think of myself. would I think about how I just got by and didn't push myself to the limit? Would I be proud of who I am? THere is so much focus from society on giving and helping others when a fair amount of people stop thinking about themselves. Selfism is a good thing too. Not just give, give, give. People take from you and keep you down, when if a person would just rise and realize their worth, they would change more lives than ever in some little blood drive or bake sale. Hah. Now I'm laughing. what the hell am I talking about, half of this probably doesn't apply to you, and if you don't like the rant, I apologize. I'm just letting the thoughts flow and I feel what you saying, so good luck and to hell with mediocrity.

Or just move out west. That's where I belong. The desert, clear day and night skies. I must get there. Is there life after death? nobody knows...so this life is all we have...

I'm 6 years younger than you so take my advice for what it's worth.

[Lucy]

Reading this really cheered me up, but I'm not really sure why.

[Lucy]

I didn't do the SAT because I'm Australian. And this is probably going to sound silly, but I've never done any IQ tests either because I'm afraid of finding out. By stupid, I just mean I know a lot of people who are much much much smarter than me, and seem to understand everything at a deeper level. I don't know how I compare to the population in general, but I'm stupid compared to them. I think I want to find a job appropriate to a stupid person because I want it not to matter whether I am intelligent or not, so that I won't have to worry about it.

[nihilist]

I think math, for everyone including the certified geniuses, can damage one's sense of self esteem in matters concerning intelligence and/or intellectual competence. I would imagine, for higher level math, anxiety and stress is exponentially greater than the minor endeavors average people deal with. It may as well be one of the few realms of learning where an ephemeral, innate, and therefore consciously uncontrollable force of the mind, can expedite success, if not beget it completely.

[file cabinet]

I didn't do the SAT because I'm Australian. And this is probably going to sound silly, but I've never done any IQ tests either because I'm afraid of finding out. By stupid, I just mean I know a lot of people who are much much much smarter than me, and seem to understand everything at a deeper level.
how are they smarter? and what does 'seem to understand everything a deeper level' mean ? it seems so subjective and arbitrary.. is 'smart' like the guy where I work who has a degree and is a working professional and spends time budgeting with his wife (seriously) every couple weeks ?


I don't know how I compare to the population in general, but I'm stupid compared to them. I think I want to find a job appropriate to a stupid person because I want it not to matter whether I am intelligent or not, so that I won't have to worry about it.
you are not a failure

[distraction tactics]

Lucy, you should get a part time job at a factory or something.

I feel like a genius just by bringing a Time magazine to work.

[Zephyrus055]

Marry in to money.

[jread]

If you're capable of a Ph.D. in Mathematics then you're smarter than about 99% of the population.

[Zephyrus055]

If you're capable of a Ph.D. in Mathematics then you're smarter than about 99% of the population.
Yeah, I'm still in pre-algebra in college. The mofos won't tell you why. They just give you methods and formulas and expect you to reproduce accurate results when given a particular mathematical equation.

Surely, he must be smart if he does so well in math! And I can't say terribly I'm stupid either, but anyway. I'm stupid enough though.

[Stillwater]

I was excited by the title of the thread, thinking hey this might be the answer. I don't consider myself stupid, but I'm always interested in the path of least resistance.

Frankly, I was a little disappointed to find a discussion about Mathematics PhD's. I've got quite a ways to go to get stupid.

I don't really want to start a thread titled "careers for mentally retarded INTP's". So how about it- careers for the average under acheiving INTP. Truck driver? Meter reader? Parking lot attendant? A little help here! Something easy without 12 years of college, please.

[Zephyrus055]

I don't really want to start a thread titled "careers for mentally retarded INTP's". So how about it- careers for the average under acheiving INTP. Truck driver? Meter reader? Parking lot attendant? A little help here! Something easy without 12 years of college, please.
Those jobs sound terrible. I know of one INTP who decided not to go to college when he finished High School, and then decided that his life sucked so much that he went to college in his late twenties, lol.

In short, if you want a job and are an INTP, get a good degree! Even better, shape your own destiny and cut corners around the economy.

Here's an idea. Lets all be Epicureans and start a INTP commune - living in a self-sufficient garden talking philosophy and having sex.

[nihilist]

I was excited by the title of the thread, thinking hey this might be the answer. I don't consider myself stupid, but I'm always interested in the path of least resistance.

Frankly, I was a little disappointed to find a discussion about Mathematics PhD's. I've got quite a ways to go to get stupid.



I suspect the irony was intentional by the OP.

[Lucy]

Sorry Stillwater. I can relate. I've google-searched "careers for stupid people" many times in various forms and not found an answer, so that finally I put this thread up. You don't really have to be smart to end up in grad school. That's a stereotype. I'd be interested in reading your new thread. maybe you could just call it "careers for really stupid people".

[Burble]

perhaps you might try your hand at art or music. You might find it extremely satisfying; take comfort in knowing that many mediocre artists manage to make a living off of their work through determination and commitment.

Otherwise, you might find something you can do to help the next generation that would give you satisfaction.

[jread]

I don't really want to start a thread titled "careers for mentally retarded INTP's". So how about it- careers for the average under acheiving INTP. Truck driver? Meter reader? Parking lot attendant? A little help here! Something easy without 12 years of college, please.

Park Ranger or something of that nature. You get to wander around in the woods by yourself and think a lot.

[Snowflake]

Sorry Stillwater. I can relate. I've google-searched "careers for stupid people" many times in various forms and not found an answer, so that finally I put this thread up. You don't really have to be smart to end up in grad school. That's a stereotype. I'd be interested in reading your new thread. maybe you could just call it "careers for really stupid people".

I don't think you have to be smart to get any type of degree these days. The expectations are so low, it's laughable.

I'm majoring in Electrical Engineering, and you cannot expect to do really well in some of these classes, they just require far more understanding than can be packed into a 15 week course on top of other classes you may be taking, and whatever else you do outside of school (work, social life, etc.)

[Melody]

i pay u $200 to teach me algebraic number theory to the point where i can understand wiles proof of fermats last theorem

surely this pay some rent

[Lucy]

I think this is a really good idea, but it's a tough area to get into, because so many people want to do it. I've had a go at volunteer bushcare - unfortunately I'm allergic to a lot of plants so sometimes come home with hives, but it's fun while I'm out there...

I was thinking of maybe being a wildlife carer or something like that when I graduate, but that'll probably require another degree.

[Snowflake]

Yeah, I'm still in pre-algebra in college. The mofos won't tell you why. They just give you methods and formulas and expect you to reproduce accurate results when given a particular mathematical equation.

Surely, he must be smart if he does so well in math! And I can't say terribly I'm stupid either, but anyway. I'm stupid enough though.

It doesn't sound like your problem is with math in general, but the teacher you have. The teacher can make all the difference. But it really does help if you can figure out the math on your own, and not have to rely on the teacher for your understanding, no matter how hard the book can be to follow, and most math books aren't that great either.

Math is just logic and procedures. You're only in college algebra, if you think that is hard, you've seen very little. Math gets far more detailed and complex, but never does it really get harder. It does get more abstract, because there is more to understand, but once you know it, you're only likely to forget how to do something from forgetting the procedures and details.

[justmyimagination]

Lucy,

I don't post on here very often but felt compelled to un-lurk for once. I have a feeling I know exactly what you're talking about, but I've never fully been able to understand it. I'm going to try and explain it, but if it's not the same thing at all let me know and I'll stop derailing your thread. :p

I love the idea of designing things, of creating something original and awesome, of understanding something, anything, in a way that nobody has ever done before. But I don't have the focus. Or something like that... I've tried playing chess with my brother, who is an absolute genius at it, but I get so bored...I can't think methodically and deeply about one thing like that. My mind jumps from topic to topic, it runs in circles, ideas pop up out of nowhere but I can't control the process at all. I get incredibly bored in class but do fine on tests because I get the concepts behind it but I don't really, truly understand it. If I could only learn the stuff maybe I'd be good at analyzing it, but when I actually learn anything it goes so, so, so slowly and makes me feel even stupider. Maybe it's a habit born of things coming too easily through intuition?

I don't know, was that what you meant at all? I don't think I'm entirely qualified to give advice because I have no idea what to do with my life (and despite what you seem to be saying you have to be kinda on the right track to be getting a math PhD!), but here are a few things that came to mind:

In one of your drop-out-and-work moments, teach. Teach anything to anyone-be a math tutor or volunteer at a high school or something. That always helped me in school when I started panicking and thinking I didn't know anything and couldn't do anything for anybody.

Read some Ayn Rand sometime.

If I think of any specific careers, I'll post them, but I'm having trouble with that myself...

[Stillwater]

I know of one INTP who decided not to go to college when he finished High School, and then decided that his life sucked so much that he went to college in his late twenties, lol.

Do I know you? :peep: Don't answer that. I wouldn't say my early 20's sucked, though. Time in your prime is priceless. I wouldn't trade those days for anything. School was much easier later for me- plus I didn't give a shit if the other students thought I was a geek- the social pressures didn't apply to me at that point. Yeah I was that guy...the 'non-traditional' student always raising his hand, acing tests, so on, so forth.



In short, if you want a job and are an INTP, get a good degree! Even better, shape your own destiny and cut corners around the economy.

I prefer option #2.




Here's an idea. Lets all be Epicureans and start a INTP commune - living in a self-sufficient garden talking philosophy and having sex.

That's what I'm doing right now. Gets boring after a while. :)

[Lucy]

I don't actually know any algebraic number theory. maybe we could learn it together? (Although I live in Australia - the other side of the world, so that may be hard...)

[mgb]

Lucy, you should get a part time job at a factory or something.

I feel like a genius just by bringing a Time magazine to work.

haa haa. That's so true.

[Melody]

I don't actually know any algebraic number theory. maybe we could learn it together? (Although I live in Australia - the other side of the world, so that may be hard...)that would be cool. tho im somewhat noob *scratches head absentmindedly*

i once wisely said that arithmetic is to mathematics what walking is to transportation

possibly u be driving some sort of flying lamborghini murcielago and i be ridin in my shoddy volkswagon rabbit :D

i drive exceptionally well tho :b

[Johnny]

...My "career" so far (I'm 27) has basically consisted of studying a lot, including working on a PhD in math right now, with periodic bouts of dropping out and doing things that I feel you don't need to be that smart to do...

Change majors now and go into engineering instead. Nobody will care how stupid you think you are, and they will hire you in the first round.

[Master O]

What do you want to do?

Go figure out how. Anything is possible that doesn't have age or physical restrictions.

[sfranky]

Lucy, I loved your post so much, why did you have to ruin it with that PhD thing.. I m 25, still undergrad in applied physics (5 years school, am currently in the ..7th year..), and I am thinking the exact same thoughts with you.. only, from my point of view, I might be actually right...:rant:

[Darren]

The problem is that all these jobs would seem to require superior intelligence or talent, and, so far as I can see, I'm not really that intelligent or talented. ...
My "career" so far (I'm 27) has basically consisted of studying a lot, including working on a PhD in math right now....


Ummm, if you were allowed within 50 miles of a PhD program in math, you have no business whatsoever posting a thread with a title like this one.

You might decide that finishing grad school is not for you, but I mean, goodness gracious, how could you have gotten in if you were stupid???

:worthy:

You are probably smart enough to do whatever you want. Brains will never be the problem: desire and enthusiasm is the key. I don't know what the hell I want yet and I'm 36 so don't look to me for any concrete advice. :huh:

Good luck.

[Snowflake]

Change majors now and go into engineering instead. Nobody will care how stupid you think you are, and they will hire you in the first round.

More or less, yepp.

[Ferrus]

You feel stupid?! I do a degree in History and Politics, one an arts degree the other a Social Science. I've always felt inferior to those who do Maths and Science (plus they find it easier to get scholarships for post grad degrees).

But hey, my intelligence, if it is not arrogant to call it that is weird. In fact I've come to see the word "intelligent" as a somewhat facile term. You see I used to be very good at Maths, I used to be good at Philosophy but there comes this point where you have to organise and remember so much logic in your head that I find (what with being stricken by Dyspraxia) I can't cope. I find concepts and events easier to remember and fashion into an argument.

Teaching does sound like your sort of thing, at least you'll meant reasonably like minded individuals. As for me, I've resigned myself to the life of a Solicitor (that's like a Attorney to those in the states, minus the advocacy), but hope to keep myself as erudite and literate as my free time allows me to.

It must also be said I'd love the prestidge of a P.h.D... I should (fingers crossed) get a Masters sometime, but the likelyhood of me being able to find the time and money for a P.h.D is unlikely to come untill my retirement (presuming no unfortunate death in between...).

[Lucy]

I almost regret mentioning my own career path now, since it seemed to distract everyone from the main question. (I guess I was trying to do two things at once - ask a general question and get advice). I think the responses were still pretty good though - being a ranger or a teacher sound like pretty good ideas. Being an engineer sounds really difficult to me... I don't think I could do it.

I already teach a fair bit - I've taught English overseas (my first degree was in linguistics) and now take some classes in university maths. I love doing my phd and wouldn't think to leave it, but will finish next year and am frightened about what on earth I could do then.

My personality doesn't seem all that suited to anything in the "real world" - whenever I have ventured into it, I've always felt that I have to pretend to be someone else to get by. I've certainly never seen a job ad that described anything remotely like me as the preferred candidate. And then on the other hand, while I'm at home at university, I have to work harder than everyone else around me because I'm not as smart as them, which is fine for now, but probably wouldn't work out if I had to juggle research with more teaching and applying for grants, not to mention looking after the child I might one day like to have and maintaining relationships with friends and family, etc., outside of work. I think it it is time to recognise my limitations.

I think my dream job would be a combination of amateur mathematician + ecologist + wildlife photographer + painter. But I'll still have to figure out a practical way to be useful so I can make money. I guess there are no easy answers though. Thanks for reading....

[tatsutahime6]

It sounds a little as though you're not feeling all that self-confident at the moment... I know how you feel -- I get the same way when a major career path decision is just on the horizon.

However, if you feel that there is no 'ideal' job that you can fit into perfectly, perhaps you should consider another option. What if you were to pick a career that you kind of like/don't mind, and is lucrative enough to support you. Then, you can just do "amateur mathematician + ecologist + wildlife photographer + painter" in your spare time?

(By the way, I don't think you're stupid at all either... I was initially a math major in my undergrad years, but had to give up 'cause I wasn't smart enough to pass Real Analysis)

[AcidGoethe]

I know this must sound like a strange thing to ask, but I figure it's worth a try. Basically, I think I'm a fairly typical INTP. And, personality-wise, my ideal career would be one of the ones that jetboots described earlier (researcher, analyst, designer, etc).

The problem is that all these jobs would seem to require superior intelligence or talent, and, so far as I can see, I'm not really that intelligent or talented. So what do you do I you have a persistent yearning to understand the world, to create beautiful things, and analyse everything, and this distracts you from more practical pursuits, but then you're too stupid to ever really understand anything anyway?

My "career" so far (I'm 27) has basically consisted of studying a lot, including working on a PhD in math right now, with periodic bouts of dropping out and doing things that I feel you don't need to be that smart to do

(or atleast, if you do need smarts to do properly, they don't pay enough to expect smart people), but that will atleast make me of use to somebody - working as a photocopy assistant, a filing clerk, at fast food outlets, in a store, etc.,

because I feel like I'm too stupid and shouldn't be wasting everyone's time, then finding that I'm crap at those supposedly intellectually unchallenging things or get depressed doing them (and they pay less than my phd stipend), so coming back to study/research out of selfishness, even though I still have an underlying belief that I'm too stupid to create anything of worth and everything I've done is fairly derivative.

I really don't know what I should do. Does anyone else have this problem?

You're stupid for thinking you're stupid.

[25fd]

Many people think, believe or want to believe that by getting more (formal) education they become smarter. It’s just not true. Acquiring knowledge is just one step, the first step. What you do with it is the key. On the same note, many people just stop after getting the knowledge and do nothing with it.

Finish what you have started and start getting some other type of skills. Right now I’d say you know a lot about a little. Maybe it’s time to learn a little about a lot. It will just open new horizons to you.

We are very fortunate in these times. Hundreds of years ago if your grandfather was a farmer (cook, waiter, etc) so was your father and so would you. Today we have choices and you can be whatever you wish to be, or at least try to be, regardless of what your ancestors did. I'd say that is wonderful.

[Nils]

I was playing online finding IQ sites. This is a decent indicator of rough IQ. If you are bored, you can take these tests in the privacy of your own home.

www.highiqsociety.org

It's fun to give to your know-it-all "smart" friends or collegues and then listen to their excuses for not getting the 126+. :)

FWIW It is possible to cheat on this one since you can retake the test. However, I noted that even so a lot of people that are in multiple IQ societies list this one, so it has to have some credibility.

The Mensa workout is fun too, but doesn't score you.

[de groz]

lol, a degree in linguistics and a PhD in maths.

And you think you're stupid?

Well maybe you are stupid, but as someone said, 99% of the population are stupider.

I can't even start uni letalone finish it. I didn't even finish year 12.

I'm pretty stupid though, so hmm.

I think your problem is self-esteem. You need to stop. Look within yourself. Stop comparing yourself with other people.

Only advice I can give really.

[de groz]

what do you consider stupid? an IQ or SAT score would give me a general idea of competence... although, the SAT doesn't measure intelligence... and intelligence tests don't measure creativity and uniqueness, which I consider to be the most important aspects of "genius"

Are you saying the SAT measures creativity and uniqueness? (I can't tell, I'm stupid)

[John]

they should add a "uniqueness" section onto the SAT.
that would be pretty interesting but probably pointless, i wonder how it would work though

[Dr. Haight]

The funny thing is that most intelligence tests measure "cognitive ability", which usually means speed. The level at which you're capable of understanding something is unmeasurable.

Richard Feynman, a nobel prize winning physicist, never tested higher than 126 on an IQ test. I always tell people this fact when they get bummed over test scores.

True. And although I am one of Feyman's greatest fan's (may he rest in peace), there is no excuse for a 126 (I'm joking). However, it has been noted--I think in my first post--that testing and age are key factors that need to be considered.

Continuing the post topic:
I would seem to me, that the author of this thread is displaying a superior form of humility, rather than a inferior form of human intelligence.

(Crap....why do I always spell intelligence incorrectly... it really diminishes my self confidence after I espouse something of analytical importance. Oh, the irony).