NTs in Manga/Anime [Archive]

Avengardh

16 Oct 2004, 10:15 AM

Thanks to heeroyuy, I got another idea for a thread, I actually wanted to talk about this for a while now, but hey, here I am.

We all know there are plenty of NTs in anime/manga, I have a few examples (Most of the Gundam Wing cast...I mean...just look at Heero, Trowa, Zechs...etc.) can this possibly be why some of us like it so much??

I started knowing about anime/manga once I saw a show when I was little, in Mexico, it was called "Candy Candy", then I came here and I became a Sailormoon fan (not a hardcore-fan...just liked it a bit), then the world of anime and manga was shown to me. But as the years passed, I started selecting my anime/manga better, and I can say that most of the titles I like have characters I identify with.

I know I identify completely (kinda creepy really...) with Nausicaa from Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind, by Miyazaki, how about everyone else??
Shinji-fans? Ranma fans?

Do you think Japan's interpretation of the INTP is quite different, and almost celebrates those traits? (Think of the character in most anime/manga that is always quiet, cool, and collected, it's almost always a handsome/pretty boy or a sexy/cute girl).

Too many questions, I know, but I didn't feel like making 2 threads ^_^.

~*Aven*~

HairlessBluetick

16 Oct 2004, 10:51 AM

Interesting points... I don't think Shinji is an NT though... I'd be willing to guess he's a feeler...

Avengardh

16 Oct 2004, 10:57 AM

No, I don't think he's an NT either, I was just referring to Evangelion in general(and for that matter...Ranma is probably not an NT either...), hehe.

HairlessBluetick

16 Oct 2004, 11:05 AM

Ah, I see. I don't know much about any of the Ranma 1/2 series/manga etc., but Eva... hmm... all I can say is I feel more connected to characters in anime than I do with the characters I see in most other forms of media... most American TV characters, for instance. But I think that has more to do with the depth of character development in Anime than it does with the characters themselves. I can see very shallow versions of Shinji, Asuka, Rei, Gendo, et al., as being annoying to me, but because they were developed so thoroughly I became very attached to them.

Arioch

16 Oct 2004, 03:16 PM

I wonder if the cyborg from Ghost in the Shell is a INTP? The woman.

KentOhio

16 Oct 2004, 08:27 PM

What's Inuyasha? He reminds me of Claverhouse.

flan2dave

17 Oct 2004, 05:05 AM

I think of Inuyasha as an ISTP. Sesshomaru strikes me as more NT but it could be just a strong J. I could say the same for Kaiba (yugioh).

Shinji's father is probably an NT. The blonde haired woman (she's important, her named slipped my mind) I would hazard the guess.

Bulma from DBZ an NT? She's loud and annoying but quite the inventor.

Postblank

17 Oct 2004, 06:41 AM

Nara Shikamaru (from Naruto) is easily an NT, probably an INTP.

There certainly aren't enough NTs in American culture, which is probably why INTPS (and others, of course) have a fondness for anime characters they can relate to.

My education teacher said that she once had a night class primarily of immigrants from the Oriental region. She mentioned that her constantly splitting into groups always was received with a very upset response, asking to work by themselves if only for one class. Naturally, that's far too small a sample to draw any definitive conclusion. However, it would seem through our general perception of those countries emphasizing more on academia that more than 1% of their population being INTP is realistic, if not conservative.

HairlessBluetick

17 Oct 2004, 01:34 PM

Shinji's father is probably an NT. The blonde haired woman (she's important, her named slipped my mind) I would hazard the guess.

Ritsuko.

Tatsuboshi

18 Oct 2004, 03:26 PM

Any Naruto fans out there? Shikamaru comes a close second to Kakashi as my favorite character.

Avengardh

18 Oct 2004, 10:27 PM

Nope, have heard about Naruto, it seems to be pretty popular nowadays, but haven't had a chance to see it; but soon enough, my local library will have it, and then, I can check it out and watch it ^_^

"I think of Inuyasha as an ISTP. Sesshomaru strikes me as more NT but it could be just a strong J. I could say the same for Kaiba (yugioh). "

Hmm...yeah, I could see Inu being an ISTP, and Sesshomaru is definitely an NT.
It was interesting because when I was into Sailormoon in Japan Amy/Ami/Sailor Mercury was more popular than Usagi/Serena/Bunny/Sailor Moon because she was so intelligent.

Interesting.

flan2dave

19 Oct 2004, 01:27 AM

Any Naruto fans out there? Shikamaru comes a close second to Kakashi as my favorite character.

Yeah yeah. I couldn't believe I forgot to mention Shikamaru actually. :angry:

Avengardh, did you know you can download the mangas and episodes at narutofan.com ?

Arioch

19 Oct 2004, 01:12 PM

flan2dave

19 Oct 2004, 08:13 PM

At least I can still mention Neji before someone else does. Another Sesshomaru type.

Thank you you glorious beautiful angel

;)

Avengardh

19 Oct 2004, 10:45 PM

Sackanaka

3 Nov 2004, 11:10 PM

YES! Shikamaru is so damn awesome. He embodies what I want to look like to others: rather plain and lazy on the outside, but so full of KICKASS when needed. Plus, he's the best character in Naruto Gekitou Ninjataisen 2 for gamecube. :D
I'm not sure who watches GTO (another good anime series), but there are 2 NT's in there: Urumi and Kikuchi, and they also kick much ass.

Hazy

4 Nov 2004, 09:04 AM

I'd say at least one out of Piccolo, Gohan and Dr. Gero would be NT...

Warrior413

11 Nov 2004, 06:11 AM

Speaking about Naruto characters... does anyone think Aburame Shino is an INTP? (He's the one with the coat and sunglasses.)

Sackanaka

11 Nov 2004, 07:42 PM

Speaking about Naruto characters... does anyone think Aburame Shino is an INTP? (He's the one with the coat and sunglasses.)

Heheh, is it because we know so little about him? I think it would be safe to say that he was an I_T_. Oh yeah, I was thinking about it and I think Shikamaru is closer to an INTJ than P. Based on his focus more on getting the job done than understanding others, particularly women. Or maybe he's just inexperienced? :wacko: I feel silly analyzing these characters so much.

Witticism

11 Nov 2004, 07:48 PM

Hmmm...
How about Spike from Cowboy Bebop? He's an INTP, I think.
Also if anyone has read Johnny the Homicidal Maniac, Devi is an INTP too, I think. And Johnny too, probably, before he went insane.
I've noticed that - INTP characteristics are sought after in Japanese culture, it seems. Well, INTPs with more concentration power, really.

Sackanaka

12 Nov 2004, 06:55 AM

We're finally getting the spotlight we deserve in this all-too-extroverted world of media! Hmm, Japanese through anime seems to have a huge power over American media these days. Or maybe I'm watching Cartoon Network too much.

Nindy

15 Nov 2004, 04:43 PM

I'd say at least one out of Piccolo, Gohan and Dr. Gero would be NT...
*agrees*

Concerning Inu Yasha (my favorite anime-series:D), I agree with Inu Yasha being ISTP and Sesshoumaru INT-(J?), but how about Kikyo? I think she could make a very bitter and vengeful NT. Could be NF though, but seems too collected for that. What do you guys think?

Postblank

15 Nov 2004, 11:45 PM

Heheh, is it because we know so little about him? I think it would be safe to say that he was an I_T_. Oh yeah, I was thinking about it and I think Shikamaru is closer to an INTJ than P. Based on his focus more on getting the job done than understanding others, particularly women. Or maybe he's just inexperienced? :wacko: I feel silly analyzing these characters so much.
Shikamaru knows when the job absolutely has to get done, which is usually when he pulls through. Aside from that, he just goes through the motions. Also, he seems to be making an attempt at understanding, but the beginning of the series takes place when he's 13-14. There are things even a genius still doesn't know at that point.

And yeah, judging by what little is told about Shino, I'd have to shoot for INT_. I'd lean toward J.

Pearlrose

6 Sep 2009, 11:26 PM

L from Death Note is INTP. Correct?

Resonance

6 Sep 2009, 11:34 PM

No. He is an IXTX.

Technical

6 Sep 2009, 11:35 PM

I don't know man, I think ESTJ. It's obvious, because he regularly engages people, seems rather occupied with reality, is well-capable of using logic in order to associate effect with cause, and gets things done. Note: I have no idea who you're talking about. /amateur typist

Pearlrose

6 Sep 2009, 11:40 PM

? X? I asumed that meant the letter was open for descussion. Therefore InTp was a possibilty. I don't know, I'm new to this so it's possible I'm wrong.

Resonance

6 Sep 2009, 11:42 PM

Right. But L doesn't exist, so he doesn't follow the laws of reality.

Pearlrose

6 Sep 2009, 11:44 PM

O.k. Whatever floats your boat man.

Resonance

6 Sep 2009, 11:47 PM

Okay, here. An INTP would never get a perfect score in any modern education system, much less the Japanese one which requires you to memorize lots of unimportant, detailed facts.

This is really painful for me. Do you really need me to continue?

Pearlrose

6 Sep 2009, 11:51 PM

Oh I get it. Ok.

by4kug4n

7 Sep 2009, 12:38 AM

L... would strike me more as an INTJ.

'I' due to the fact that he doesn't really trust anybody enough aside from Watari, and is usually talking to people through a laptop computer that has the Old English letter L emblazoned on it. If you think about it, he rarely gets into contact with people face-to-face.

N, more because while he looks at the facts, he also goes on his hunches on things, investigates, see where it leads him, and for the most part, gets his hunches right. I mean, come on, he got to Kira pretty quickly, and didn't stop thinking that Light was Kira, because his hunch wouldn't leave him alone.

T, which would be obvious, just because he CAN come up with logical conclusions from what might seem very little to go on. I cannot see him as a feeler, because he doesn't allow feelings to fog his judgment. At least, that's my take on it.

J, more because he plans things way ahead of time, and executes them according to his plans. He also manages the small group of police under his control and sees to it that they do as he says so as to maintain control of the situation as he sees fit. Probably a weak argument there, but whatever.

So yes, my reasons as to why L might be an INTJ.

__________________

Otherwise, Yes, Heero Yui, Sesshoumaru, Hyuuga Neji, and Aburame Shino are all NT's, mainly I's, though I would personally say that they would most likely be J's due to the fact that they don't sit around looking at the situation and play along with the possibilities, gather more data, and then do what they should do, if they so felt inclined.

Nara Shikamaru would most likely fit the INTP profile since he doesn't like doing troublesome things, though he does take into account the different possibilities, and changes things according to the new data or information that can come in, and exploits them quite well.

_____________

Others to consider - Ishida Uryuu from Bleach, Kuchiki Byakuya from Bleach...

CLAMP characters for some reason all strike me as F's. Even Yue from CCS. though he tries not to show them for the most part. Name a CLAMP character that doesn't seem to be an F~ I mean, even Komui from X seems rather F to me despite being all kickass.

Pearlrose

7 Sep 2009, 01:12 AM

Oh well Ok but in this situation I'm going to have to say you believe what you want and I'll believe what I want.

Adymus

7 Sep 2009, 01:32 AM

INTPs I wouldn't say are celebrated in manga and anime, although their skills are certainly valued and shown somewhat positively. Those cool and collected characters you are talking about are almost always INTJs. Come to think of it, INTP characters are somewhat uncommon, but that is really no different from American media.
A common character motif that INTPs fit into are the emotionless vulcanesque characters, that are either not human, or are human yet still alien to the rest of humanity. A good example of the latter would be Sai from Naruto Shippuden if you are familiar with it.

Resonance

7 Sep 2009, 01:46 AM

you want an INTP in an anime?
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b332/henryhuai91/Anime/1248116492139.png

Krill

7 Sep 2009, 02:24 AM

Adymus

7 Sep 2009, 02:36 AM

Yang Wenli is pretty much THE intp for me when it comes to anime.

Also, regarding L as INTJ, I would say that the fact that he hates to lose and will stubbornly stick with his judgements in spite of strong evidence to the contrary definitely fits in with that typing.
He was never really completely certain Light was kira until all evidence pointed to him, he was pretty open minded about the possibility of him being wrong from the get go, without actually having any convictions for any particular possibility.
I'd go with L being an INTP.

Resonance

7 Sep 2009, 02:59 AM

Senjougahara is definitely INTP. Everything from stapling Araragi's cheek to the 15 word games per minute to the alien identity. It all fits.

Araragi I think is probably ISFJ based on his behaviour. He gives off P vibes but I think that is more due to the art style and atmosphere.

Mayoi might be ENTJ, I dunno. Word games, overly clever, independent, commanding...

Hanekawa is like an ESTJ what with being the class president and all. I thought P at first based on the vibes but again, art style and atmosphere. There's no way she's an ESTP based on her behaviour.

Funny thing, socionics describes the character relations quite accurately this way :)

Krill

7 Sep 2009, 03:14 AM

He was never really completely certain Light was kira until all evidence pointed to him, he was pretty open minded about the possibility of him being wrong from the get go, without actually having any convictions for any particular possibility.
I'd go with L being an INTP.

Consider the fact that he consistently held Light in high suspicion even in spite of evidence to the contrary. Consider how long he waited while Light had voluntarily imprisoned himself before taking it as evidence of innocence, and EVEN THEN he used the ploy with Light's father to test Light. I only ever got the vibe that he was saying he was open-minded about it in order to appease the people around him. It appeared to me that, in fact, he did not think his initial suspicion was wrong at any point (based on the way he behaved towards Light even as he spouted ridiculously low percentage possibilities for Light being Kira).

I mean think about how much convoluted bullshit Light went through before L's suspicion was alleviated at all (and as the scene on the rooftop in the rain indicates, that suspicion was never entirely gone).

Pearlrose

7 Sep 2009, 03:20 AM

Adymus

7 Sep 2009, 04:41 AM

Consider the fact that he consistently held Light in high suspicion even in spite of evidence to the contrary. Consider how long he waited while Light had voluntarily imprisoned himself before taking it as evidence of innocence, and EVEN THEN he used the ploy with Light's father to test Light. I only ever got the vibe that he was saying he was open-minded about it in order to appease the people around him. It appeared to me that, in fact, he did not think his initial suspicion was wrong at any point (based on the way he behaved towards Light even as he spouted ridiculously low percentage possibilities for Light being Kira).

I mean think about how much convoluted bullshit Light went through before L's suspicion was alleviated at all (and as the scene on the rooftop in the rain indicates, that suspicion was never entirely gone).
The reason L was focusing so much on light was because he was the only real lead he had. All evidence was indeed pointing to light from the get go (or at least in his general direction). Kira is in the Kanto district, Check! Kira appears to most likely be a college student, check! Second kira is confirmed to have met with kira, Misa is confirmed the second kira as light is her new boyfriend, check check check!
These were all logical conclusions made by L through sheer Ti analysis, not some Ni intuitive leap. The reason L was so subborn about letting Light off the hook was because if he did, all of the arrows pointed to him, the evidence was overwhelming, I imagine I would have been just as subborn; and letting light go would mean going back to square one with absolutely nothing gained.

Krill

7 Sep 2009, 04:58 AM

The reason L was focusing so much on light was because he was the only real lead he had. All evidence was indeed pointing to light from the get go (or at least in his general direction). Kira is in the Kanto district, Check! Kira appears to most likely be a college student, check! Second kira is confirmed to have met with kira, Misa is confirmed the second kira as light is her new boyfriend, check check check!
These were all logical conclusions made by L through sheer Ti analysis, not some Ni intuitive leap. The reason L was so subborn about letting Light off the hook was because if he did, all of the arrows pointed to him, the evidence was overwhelming, I imagine I would have been just as subborn; and letting light go would mean going back to square one with absolutely nothing gained.

I find it odd that you seem to be implying that an INTJ wouldn't consider that evidence through Te (whether or not Te is any different than Ti, something which I think Technical has made an interest challenge regarding) and instead reduce the INTJ strictly to Ni.

I don't think this argument is going to go anywhere because I don't think either of us will be able to establish whether L's analysis was backing up and feeding an initial intuition or not. I think his behavior indicates that it wasn't just the evidence that lead to his stubborness, but frankly I can't point to anything more specific than that. Regardless, him considering the evidence as a part of his reasoning through a Thinking function is hardly incompatible with him being INTJ.

Huston

7 Sep 2009, 06:17 AM

I find it odd that you seem to be implying that an INTJ wouldn't consider that evidence through Te (whether or not Te is any different than Ti, something which I think Technical has made an interest challenge regarding) and instead reduce the INTJ strictly to Ni.

Evidence does not go through Te, it goes through intuition or sensation. Ne will provide the external evidence, Ni is also the intuitive leap, like the prophet... or like Light, as Adymus pointed out. Light is definitely Ni, when he actually thought L was that death row criminal. He had no data to actually make that assumption, it also shows the flaw of Te, or Js that is.

surrealist

7 Sep 2009, 06:22 AM

Right. But L doesn't exist, so he doesn't follow the laws of reality.

:rofl:

weebolj

7 Sep 2009, 11:57 AM

I think Lawrence Craft of Spice and Wolf is an INTP.

Also, Totoro is an INTP.

Affinity

11 Sep 2009, 09:29 PM

Also, Totoro is an INTP.

:lol:

I believe Gene from Samurai Champloo is an INTP.

Aeternus

12 Sep 2009, 10:08 PM

I think Lawrence Craft of Spice and Wolf is an INTP.

Also, Totoro is an INTP.

Hard to believe that a merchant may be an INTP. He clearly desires to settle in a village, he doesn't like the loneliness of being a peddler, he is skilled in social interaction (thought this may be something he learned), and he is precise and all about his job. I'm not a good typer, but I would go with eNxx.

Huston

13 Sep 2009, 02:17 AM

CLAMP characters for some reason all strike me as F's. Even Yue from CCS. though he tries not to show them for the most part. Name a CLAMP character that doesn't seem to be an F~ I mean, even Komui from X seems rather F to me despite being all kickass.

What about Satsuki from X or Domeki from xxxholic.

Of course, all things done by CLAMP is geared toward women.

Tacet

13 Sep 2009, 07:41 AM

Of course, all things done by CLAMP is geared toward women.

Except for the location of Chii's "on" switch.

Huston

14 Sep 2009, 03:18 AM

Except for the location of Chii's "on" switch.

You're right. Chobits is for little girls. :p

I have never seen that one though.

weebolj

17 Sep 2009, 12:21 PM

Hard to believe that a merchant may be an INTP. He clearly desires to settle in a village, he doesn't like the loneliness of being a peddler, he is skilled in social interaction (thought this may be something he learned), and he is precise and all about his job. I'm not a good typer, but I would go with eNxx.
You said it. A merchant, not a salesman. He operates on economics and not salesmanship.

In the latest episode, he wasn't too bothered about post-poning his pipedream of settling down. I bet he's done it many times before.

What makes you think he doesn't like the loneliness? IIRC, he stated in the first episode that he has traveled alone going on years by then, told Holo that it's lonesome out there, yet the next moment (or before, no recall) declined some village girl's offer for partnership/companionship/marriage/something. He's not looking for just any company i.e. company for its own sake. Still, on a whim, he took up Holo's (someone interesting, a pagan god) offer of traveling together.

He's skilled in social interaction when it comes to his job, but retarded in emotional intelligence, which is showcased ostensibly in Kumerson arc in his lack of faith in the bond between him and Holo. He is also naturally suspicious of people and truthful of his intention to profit. Aren't INTPs precise about their work? Their work, not their boss'.

Kirai

17 Sep 2009, 01:34 PM

Most of the trickster archetype characters are ENTP: Xellos from Slayers, Xerxes from Pandora Hearts, The Devil of the Book from Tenshi na Konamaiki, Kujaku from RGVeda, Loki from Matantei Loki Ragnarok, Suzumiya Haruhi, Yuuko from xxxHOLiC, Anissina from Kyou Kara Maou etc.

Kouichi from Nabari no Ou, Murata from Kyou Kara Maou, Duo from Gundam Wing, Sumeragi from Gundam 00 also seem ENTP to me; they have a knack for manipulating people and always appear friendly, but their decisions are cold as ice (of course, they could also be INFJ by this same description).

Also ENTP I'm thinking Yoh from Shaman King and Fai from Tsubasa Chronicles. Yoh - he's lazy and rational, but he's always surrounded by people - the manga even made a point of him being highly dispassionate (when he's angry, he's in rage, he doesn't do 'mild anger', but that's rare); also, all of his decisions were highly intuitive - even if this might be a result of his training.

Fai is emotionally closed off, but displays the friendly/goofy facade characteristic of every other ENTP character. He desires to be surrounded by people too much to be introverted, imho; he doesn't seem to work on Fi either - I can't remember him ever making value judgments or acting on decisions based on values.

The only INTP characters I can think of are L and Yang; and very possibly Xerxes - unlike every other ENTP in that list, he's the only one who doesn't seek out other people except if it's necessary - so much that he reacted badly when Oz and Gil proposed they were his friends

I've been thinking that Misato from Evangelion might be one too. She has that desperation and roughness that lower Fe brings.

I haven't thought that much about the other two NTs - the most fascinating characters for me are the xNTP and the xNFJ.

INFP males are also interesting - I'm thinking of Sai from Hikaru no Go, Yukito from Cardcaptor Sakura, Subaru and Kakyou from X, Toki from Amatsuki and, maybe, Sararegi from Kyou Kara Maou.

Kirai

17 Sep 2009, 04:14 PM

CLAMP characters for some reason all strike me as F's. Even Yue from CCS. though he tries not to show them for the most part. Name a CLAMP character that doesn't seem to be an F~ I mean, even Komui from X seems rather F to me despite being all kickass.

That's a very good point. The CLAMP authors are very likely NFs, and I'm pretty sure Ohkawa at least is INFP - most of their plots are inspired from her dreams and feature many, many heavily Fi-influenced themes.

But still, there are a couple of Ts - Yue isn't because he represents the Moon and Yin, but Keroberos, Sun and Yang, is. Touya might as well be, but I think Clow and his reincarnations are INFJs.

From X, I'm sure Seishirou (INTJ?), Yuuto, Satsuki, Kusanagi and Arashi aren't (and that's almost half of the cast). There's a parallel between Seishirou/Subaru and Fuuma/Kamui - the first pair are obviously strongly Te and strong Fi, but Fuuma is a good deal more hotheaded and impulsive (tending towards F?), not to mention concerned about family and friends, while Kamui is a prissy bitch much colder and less likely to be affected by others (going towards T?). This is reversed after Fuuma goes homicidal and Kamui spends the rest of the series emo-ing away with Subaru.

Yuuko's also ENTP; sure, she has many moments where she comes off as INFJ, but it's a lot more likely that that was Clow having rubbed off on her. We know Clow as the person who set events in motion, but Yuuko mostly observed patterns and attempted to twist them to further her scopes (although it can't really be called 'her' scopes).

I don't see Fai as an F either (as I said in my previous post), but Kurogane? I'm not sure.

Resonance

23 Sep 2009, 09:53 AM

ENTP: Suzumiya Haruhi

wut

E I get, but NTP?

Kirai

24 Sep 2009, 12:17 PM

wut

E I get, but NTP?

Sure, why not?

N over S: 'feet on the ground' is an expression that does not describe her in any way. She's always off chasing ideas, 'normal stuff' leaving her bored out of her mind.

T over F: from Koizumi's psychoanalysises of her (mostly) - she has the power to change the world fundamentally, maybe even created it, but it still has inner consistency; all most of the rules of our world still apply. Also, each time she was confronted with something supernatural she rationalized it away - on some fundamental level, she can't bring herself to actually believe there actually are ESPers and time-travellers.

+ she picked ESPers, time-travellers and aliens to exist; of all the potential oddities groups (witches, zombies, angels, vampires, youkai, etc), she picked the most scientifically probable.

P over J: Okay, this one is harder. The arguments Ti over Te and Ne over Ni are much weaker, and just looking at P and J rarely helps. On the other hand, between ENTJ and ENTP ENTP does seem to make more sense; creating a school club for the express purpose of 'overloading the world with fun' doesn't seem like an NTJ thing.

Resonance

24 Sep 2009, 01:54 PM

Wow, k, yeah, you're right. Absolutely.
I suppose that makes Kyon an ISFP?
He certainly doesn't initiate external contact often enough to be considered an E and he's constantly got that internal dialogue going.
He can understand Haruhi's ideas and stuff but he prefers to focus on material issues.
His 'logical' reasons take the form of nebulous feelerish explanations. He is constantly worrying about how everyone is going to be affected by Haruhi's activities and patching up relationships, though it irritates him that this is necessary.
The P is just obvious for him I think. Constantly going along with other people, never plans much, doesn't think about the future except to wonder what will happen...

I dunno, you try.

deuteros

24 Sep 2009, 02:10 PM

I know I identify completely (kinda creepy really...) with Nausicaa from Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind, by Miyazaki, how about everyone else??
Nah, she is definitely an NF.

Kirai

24 Sep 2009, 02:53 PM