Betray Jesus?

[kendoiwan]

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/406854p-344344c.html

How can you betray God anyway? If he knows all, and presumably is the cause for all... then you can't exactly betray him now can you? He knew what you were going to do before you did it after all.

[Dom]

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/406854p-344344c.html

How can you betray God anyway? If he knows all, and presumably is the cause for all... then you can't exactly betray him now can you? He knew what you were going to do before you did it after all.

Who says he knows all, is the cause of all?

This is exactly right, if he is the cause of all then free will doesn't exist, if it doesn't then how can someone betray or sin???

God is not the cause of all things, he created us to have free will and gave us the earth to have dominion over. Thus we control what happens to us, through cause and consequence. He has to work with us to get stuff done, hence he took such pains to convince Jonah to go to Nivehah. Why bother if he could click his fingers to get him to do it?

Also this theology would make god responsible for cancer and all badness, not the act of a God of love and grace, hence why I follow a theology where these things are jsut part of life, caused by the earth being subject to sin.

[Dr. Haight]

If Dan Brown is correct, than the Catholic Church should have been able locate and burn those scrolls before they went public.

(Attention: If you are Catholic, I'm sorry, however, I will burn in hell anyways for not accepting Jesus as my Messiah)

[earwax]

This isn't going to turn into a free will/predestination debate is it?

(** Looks over shoulder to see if Watch is, er... watching **)

I always did think that Judas got a bad rap.

[xavierd]

The problem is when people try to apply human concepts and motivations to God. I think when most people think of God they think of a very big man with magical powers and I think this is incorrect. Of course this is all just my opinion.

[papertrail]

The problem is when people try to apply human concepts and motivations to God.
i think that is well said.

[david2341.]

god didnt want to create robots but wanted to create beings with free will who may decide not to accept him, did not want beings to be obligated to follow or love him out of fear or legalism ?

[david2341.]

god wanted

[Johnny]

(Attention: If you are Catholic, I'm sorry, however, I will burn in hell anyways for not accepting Jesus as my Messiah)

Don't feel too bad, Doctor. It's "pay me now or pay me later" regardless. If you were hardcore Catholic, you'd be prepped well enough so that anyplace you went to when you died would seem like Heaven... :p

[distraction tactics]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Judas always largely considered to be the necessary scapegoat that never really did anything wrong?

I don't see how this really changes anything.

[meshou]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Judas always largely considered to be the necessary scapegoat that never really did anything wrong?I thought that was Pontias Pilate. The bible has had a lot of nessicarily evil characters (Pharoh, for example) who, despite being made to be evil in that situation, still had God treating them like crap for it.

Granted, Judas was essentially being written about by a different culture. But even Paul argued that some people were made for common purpass and some for a higher one, and it was no more evil for God to do so than for a potter to make good china and stuff that was made for one use and then broken. Even if God made him just to go to hell, he goes to hell.

This is the new testament God's mercy. Yey.

[wildcat]

Who says he knows all, is the cause of all?

This is exactly right, if he is the cause of all then free will doesn't exist, if it doesn't then how can someone betray or sin???

God is not the cause of all things, he created us to have free will and gave us the earth to have dominion over. Thus we control what happens to us, through cause and consequence. He has to work with us to get stuff done, hence he took such pains to convince Jonah to go to Nivehah. Why bother if he could click his fingers to get him to do it?

Also this theology would make god responsible for cancer and all badness, not the act of a God of love and grace, hence why I follow a theology where these things are jsut part of life, caused by the earth being subject to sin.
A RARE PAPYRUS FIND AWAKES QUESTIONS
According to Evangelium of Judas he was no traitor. He was the keenest and closest diciple of Jesus.
It is an authentic book of Gospel.
Jesus wanted it to be soon over. He wanted to be caught. Judas did as his master wished.

[Prozac]

I thought that was Pontias Pilate. The bible has had a lot of nessicarily evil characters (Pharoh, for example) who, despite being made to be evil in that situation, still had God treating them like crap for it.


its Pontius Pilate you so gracefully lacerated.. yes, you are correct.. Pilate is considered a saint in Ethiopian Church of Orthodoxy

i'm quite certain that it was not so much the hand washing that did it, rather his taunting of the Jews

either that or perhaps he was concerned about his political future



Granted, Judas was essentially being written about by a different culture. But even Paul argued that some people were made for common purpass and some for a higher one, and it was no more evil for God to do so than for a potter to make good china and stuff that was made for one use and then broken. Even if God made him just to go to hell, he goes to hell.

This is the new testament God's mercy. Yey

pawns on a chessboard... as I said to watch in another thread, Judas repented - he got a bad rap as earwax posted someplace before this

in fact, i was going to suggest that maybe Jesus committed suicide

before anyone gets their knickers in a wad, consider this:

Jesus on numerous occasions said "I lay my life down for my sheep" ..

so in a Dr. Kervorkian manner ("evil character" assisted) he orchestrated his death, therefore...

who can be ultimately responsible for anything? not Pilate, his decision hinged on the reaction of the people... not Judas either, someone "had to execute that move in the plan"...

[Prozac]

A RARE PAPYRUS FIND AWAKES QUESTIONS
According to Evangelium of Judas he was no traitor. He was the keenest and closest diciple of Jesus.
It is an authentic book of Gospel.
Jesus wanted it to be soon over. He wanted to be caught. Judas did as his master wished.


Wildcat, you're right, at least in this post (universally right, who knows)

there is some special called The Gospel of Judas being shown on National Geographic channel upcoming.. this could shed light

[Snowflake]

God this, God that, blah blah

[Johnny]

The Gospel of Judas being shown on National Geographic channel upcoming.. this could shed light

Actually wildcat would have been right despite this new find.

Judas did his duty

[Prozac]

Actually wildcat would have been right despite this new find.

Judas did his duty



let me guess, you're an alienated "mental labourer" under the guise of intellectual oppression...

either that or perhaps you're genetically blocked and pose as a fixation of social activity

[Carebear]

Slightly off topic, but if heaven is for sinners who repent and believe in Jesus, what will stop them from continuing the sins in heaven? Will the the free will be taken away from us in heaven?

In that case, I'm not very impressed.

God:
"You'll all get something slightly resembling free will (though moderated by genes and environment) on earth for between 1-100 years and then I'll take it away again for an eternity.

PS: I forgot to mention that during your infinitely small amount of time on earth, you'll be able to fuck everything up and go to hell. The gift of life, from your God. Now be thankful, or you'll burn.

PPS: Yeah, and I'm not really omnipotent or omniscient. Seems I'm not able to do anything with that fucktard Satan and for some reason I thought it a good idea to make the rules such that only the symbolic sacrifice of my son incarnate would save you guys, and you only really stand a good chance of being saved if you're born into a christian family. Let's hope I didn't let you get born by parents of another religion.

PPPS: Ah, and I forgot to tell you... you can't really get christian of your own accord. You'll have to get touched by the Holy Ghost, and for some reason he's more into touching people in charismatic christian churches and ex-alcoholics, than jews, moslems, hindus etc. Ok, I think that was all. Enjoy!

PPPPS: Yeah, and I know I created you as an intellectual, critical, exploring being, but don't use that brain too much. Follow your heart instead. Unless you're gay. In which case you should follow the head instead. Now that wasn't that hard to understand, right?"

Me: :wtf:

[Ka.avik]

who can be ultimately responsible for anything? not Pilate, his decision hinged on the reaction of the people... not Judas either, someone "had to execute that move in the plan"...
So, who killed Jesus? It's quite simple, really -- you did.

After all, however it happened, he died for sinners like you, right?

//notes three fingers pointing back at the one who also killed Jesus....

[dubbeltop]

Jesus killed Jesus and God blames all of you. Sinners are winners and thats a fact.

[Prozac]

So, who killed Jesus? It's quite simple, really -- you did.

After all, however it happened, he died for sinners like you, right?

//notes three fingers pointing back at the one who also killed Jesus....


its quite possible that no one killed him, or everyone killed him


frugal critique of a mind-bending question.. at least the social benefits of this occurence lends itself to a decision regarding assumptions

shaken, not stirred, we are all members of a control group.. how ambitious of us

[Johnny]

let me guess, you're an alienated "mental labourer" under the guise of intellectual oppression...

either that or perhaps you're genetically blocked and pose as a fixation of social activity

Well, at least you try.

Most don't bother speculating such details.

[digesthisickness]

i watched a good part of that show on national geographic. to paraphrase (but closely) jesus said to judas that it was time for him to do his duty and release him of this body. that, to me, seems pretty self-explanatory.

mostly, the show just caused me to wish they'd hurry up and share it so that i can see what someone somewhere at sometime decided i shouldn't see.

[Eileen]

Wow. I really find this idea quite fascinating and moving:



"You will exceed all of them. You will sacrifice the man that clothes me," Jesus tells Judas.

It's hard for me to explain why, exactly. I have always felt great compassion for the Judas character--it always seemed to me that he was doing exactly what he was called to do in order to bring about fulfillment of the prophecies; whether he is doing it consciously or unconsciously doesn't concern me too much, but there's something really powerful in the notion that Judas acted out the sacrificer role... it was not only human hands that killed the Lamb, but it was human hands that loved the Lamb that killed it. Don't you have to love a sacrifice? Isn't that what makes it a sacrifice?

I don't have coherent thoughts about this yet... but the wheels, they are a-turnin'.

[Trystorp]

A RARE PAPYRUS FIND AWAKES QUESTIONS
According to Evangelium of Judas he was no traitor. He was the keenest and closest diciple of Jesus.
It is an authentic book of Gospel.
Jesus wanted it to be soon over. He wanted to be caught. Judas did as his master wished.

And Jesus may have ordered done it in order to fufill prophecy and seem like a genuine Messiah, much like riding an ass into Jerusalem, birth in Bethlehem, crucifixion with criminals, etc.

The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver Zechariah 11:12,13

There is a significant case to be made that much of Jesus' life, if not all of it (including even the existence of a historical Jesus), is a deliberate construction around the Messianic prophecies.

A very interesting book I read recently is The Jesus Mysteries (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0609807986/sr=8-1/qid=1144709069/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-3138971-7844715?%5Fencoding=UTF8), which examines the similarities between the pagan mystery religions and early Christianity. The authors make a compelling case for a great deal of myth making. Paul, in preaching to the Gentiles - the Greeks - appears to have taken, or created, a life of Jesus and taught a pagan mystery religion dressed in Hebrew garb. It's a book worth reading whether you agree with the premise or not.

Robert Graves' King Jesus (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0374516642/qid=1144709352/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-3138971-7844715?s=books&v=glance&n=283155) is another interesting take on a historical Jesus deliberately fufilling prophecy in order to fill the mantle of a Messiah.

[wildcat]

Don't feel too bad, Doctor. It's "pay me now or pay me later" regardless. If you were hardcore Catholic, you'd be prepped well enough so that anyplace you went to when you died would seem like Heaven... :p
ach Gott ! Wie ist
das Haus soooooooo klein?

wem mag das winzige Häuschen sein?

[raincrow007]

ach Gott ! Wie ist
das Haus soooooooo klein?

wem mag das winzige Häuschen sein?

What's with you and Johnny carrying on in tongues in various threads? Can't you just PM him with your commentary? It's sort of distracting to those without your multi-linguistic finesse.

;)

[Johnny]

Verzeihen Sie uns bitte.

[raincrow007]

Verzeihen Sie uns bitte.

Maybe. ;)

[Master O]

some people were made for common purpass
Please don't take offense, but I find your mispellings fascinating (this is only one example but similar to others). To me they signify a mind that is purely about ideas and getting them out there as efficiently as possible. They're almost beautiful in their, even phonetical, inaccuracy. It's like your mind is already so far past each specific word that the word has already lost importance because it's already done it's job the moment it was chosen.

I don't know why i felt the need to comment, but I did.