Zen Wars: Brad Warner vs. Genpo Roshi

[zago]

I don't know if anyone here is familiar with the Big Mind movement of Genpo Roshi (and Ken Wilber), but it claims to be a method that can bring Kensho, or temporary enlightenment, in about an hour of practice. That's pretty crazy, right? So says Brad Warner, another enlightened Zen Buddhist. Warner claims that this is all a huge scam, and a slew of other reasons why Big Mind is bull shit. He asserts that it takes years of meditation and thought to reach enlightenment, and there is absolutely no way around that.

Hm. I never had a great feeling about Genpo Roshi, but Ken Wilber, on the other hand, who supports Big Mind, seems to be much more credible. In that sense I am a bit torn, especially because I am not a big fan of Brad Warner's debate style, which goes something like: "I'm right because I know I am right, so deal with it."

Where I stand right now? I have lost a little bit of faith in Ken Wilber, who at least appears to be extremely experienced with all things enlightenment, and I will have to re-examine whether or not I want to look deeper into his work. Luckily, at this point I haven't gotten too into it, but I was planning on it until now..

I dunno if anyone is familiar enough with this stuff (the integral movement, Big Mind, Brad Warner's work) to discuss, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

http://suicidegirls.com/news/culture/20504/ - the article by Brad Warner blasting Genpo Roshi.

[dhellen]

Integral is more a meta-perspective on spiritual development in general and you can do any spiritual tradition with it. What is cool about integral is that the developmental sequences keep going into stuff that is really occult (yogi, saint, sage and siddi stages of self development) in other traditions. The diagrams on the back of his books are basically a rosette stone for the world's occult traditions.

Brad Warner looks like he knows his stuff about zen meditation but he doesn't have anything of interesting to say about human development or occult.

Big mind is pretty cool but it isn't enlightenment. In integral your not enlightened unless your able to be conscious while in the deep sleep state. What is nice about big mind is that it includes shadow work (I definitely feel better personally after doing it. Self Development is considered very different from enlightenment in integral.

I think you can do any meditation with integral so I think you can use brad's stuff for meditation and ken wilber's stuff as an intellectual toolbox without too much trouble.

ps. I bet bard warner is INTJ, genpo IXTP and ken wilber INTP.

[floid]

Anything that claims to bring about or allow you to attain a state of enlightenment is bullshit.

You are as enlightened now as you ever have been or ever will be.

Turn off that which seeks and what you "thought" you were looking for is just as there as it always is.

Ken Wilber is a brilliant philosopher.
But all the thinking in the world is no more than thoughts and thought cannot take you beyond it's sealed universe of duality into the non-dual consciousness that contains it.

Trying to "become enlightened" is like trying to catch a butterfly with a sledge hammer.

You might get the butterfly with the hammer but all you've got then is a dead mass of crushed butterfly.

But then that may be what you're actually looking for rather than the totally uninteresting (to a mind) simplicity of what is.

[kuranes]

Originally Posted by dhellen

In integral your not enlightened unless your able to be conscious while in the deep sleep state.

I read somewhere that being able to rapidly cycle in and out of Theta brain waves was significant. I forget what it was that one cycled into as they left Theta. Is that "final enlightenment" ? Meh. I don't know. I've heard both good and not so good about Wilber, but his books were interesting, especially the way they cross reference everything under the sun.

[zago]

Originally Posted by floid

Anything that claims to bring about or allow you to attain a state of enlightenment is bullshit.

You are as enlightened now as you ever have been or ever will be.

Turn off that which seeks and what you "thought" you were looking for is just as there as it always is.

Ken Wilber is a brilliant philosopher.
But all the thinking in the world is no more than thoughts and thought cannot take you beyond it's sealed universe of duality into the non-dual consciousness that contains it.

Trying to "become enlightened" is like trying to catch a butterfly with a sledge hammer.

You might get the butterfly with the hammer but all you've got then is a dead mass of crushed butterfly.

But then that may be what you're actually looking for rather than the totally uninteresting (to a mind) simplicity of what is.

Ok. I am enlightened. FINE. Have it your way. If I am already enlightened, I want to be as IN TOUCH with my enlightenment as a ZEN MASTER is. You know, one of those dudes who has a realization and then everything is different and suffering is transcended. Because I have NOT transcended suffering. Don't even fuck with me here. I know there is a fucking "moment" when one realizes his nature, and that's what I am SEEKING. My happiness doesn't depend on this moment, so don't gimme that "looking too hard" crap. I enjoy life most of the time but I think I could enjoy it more, and I think that's a good direction to move in, if any.

I'm talking about the MOMENT when all doubt DISAPPEARS. If this is being awakened, then I am pretty fucking disappointed. I might as well start a fucking stamp collection or something.

Awakening. The zen master says he feels as though he has AWOKEN from a dream. I have not had this moment, even though I know I am "enlightened." I meditate twice a day and other than that, I really don't fucking worry about it. I'm just gonna see where this meditation shit takes me.

PS I did that Big Mind thing and it made me feel decent but certainly

[floid]

Originally Posted by zago

Ok. I am enlightened. FINE. Have it your way. If I am already enlightened, I want to be as IN TOUCH with my enlightenment as a ZEN MASTER is. You know, one of those dudes who has a realization and then everything is different and suffering is transcended. Because I have NOT transcended suffering. Don't even fuck with me here. I know there is a fucking "moment" when one realizes his nature, and that's what I am SEEKING. My happiness doesn't depend on this moment, so don't gimme that "looking too hard" crap. I enjoy life most of the time but I think I could enjoy it more, and I think that's a good direction to move in, if any.

I'm talking about the MOMENT when all doubt DISAPPEARS. If this is being awakened, then I am pretty fucking disappointed. I might as well start a fucking stamp collection or something.

Awakening. The zen master says he feels as though he has AWOKEN from a dream. I have not had this moment, even though I know I am "enlightened." I meditate twice a day and other than that, I really don't fucking worry about it. I'm just gonna see where this meditation shit takes me.

PS I did that Big Mind thing and it made me feel decent but certainly

Maybe you're a tad bit obsessed with Zen, meditation, and "achieving something" you've read in books or saw in moves, or otherwise been led to "believe in".

Relax with a good strong cup of Advaita and let it all go.

Then you may find, in the remaining emptiness, that there is nothing to find, no "moment" to "have", and the only difference between you and any Zen Master amounts only to thoughts and words.

[zago]

Originally Posted by floid

Maybe you're a tad bit obsessed with Zen, meditation, and "achieving something" you've read in books or saw in moves, or otherwise been led to "believe in".

Relax with a good strong cup of Advaita and let it all go.

Then you may find, in the remaining emptiness, that there is nothing to find, no "moment" to "have", and the only difference between you and any Zen Master amounts only to thoughts and words.

Relax and let it all go? You realize that if I did that, I would still be making an effort to make it happen...

If you aren't allowed to try, then why does this zen crap exist at all?

[zago]

That is a good website though. I kind of see what it is saying.

[zago]

Alright, yeah. For some reason that website made it click. I think I pretty much get it now. What's all of this about being conscious during deep sleep though? Or recognizing the deep sleep state while we're awake. I don't get that part.

[shadow master]

Usually enlightenment happens by accident. I've heard Ken Wilber say something to the effect of a meditation practice can make that "accident" more likely to happen.